This is basically for dummkopf, since i think he has it. But what are the graphics in game like? I really hope it has a nice graphic, since it's the only weapon i want to upgrade crystal hinted shinai.
I saw http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=45823 and that just looks AWESOME! Post a SS if you can!
I hate to be the one telling you, but Tonfa looks like a... yes a Tonfa. (Brown police baton) And it's small too, can hardly see it =P
Jililuokta_AB
Hmm, i never play in 3rd person cam so i cant take screenies of myself, but perhaps jili could post one ;)
Yes, it kinda looks the same as on the icon, its a nightstick like weapon that is pretty small, even more so since half of it is alongside your forearm. Combat animation is normal punch animation.
Done any parses with it yet? just curious how it compares to AM fists...
Some images of the weapon on characters can be found in this monkly-business.net thread (http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=10840).
Three Redfang kills and no drop yet. Hopefully one will appear on the corpse this next time so I can pick one up. If my calculations are correct, it's the best primary weapon for beastlords that's currently in the game.
Not sure if it's the best Bst weapon, but it's the one with best ratio.
Tonfu: 30/18 - pure ratio = 1.66
Runic Maul: 38/23 - pure ratio = 1.65
Runic maul has a LT proc and generates less aggro, so I would say that's the best one so far =)
Hate to say this Jilli but its NOT BL usable from the alla post on it. Think Dreead only wanted to know if it had a graphic on it for another toon
It's definately beastlord-usable. I'm in the guild lobby wielding one right now. :)
Yep, im using one since a few days, check my magelo if you dont believe us :evil:
Must be another All snarl up then. My appologies
Couple days ago i was playing with the dps dealie.
Cryptwood came up far better dps then Runic bloodstained maul. I assumed because of the less delay was the reason, but I could be wrong.(this was after he fixed mauls proc on the dps chart)
"Tonfu: 30/18 - pure ratio = 1.66
Runic Maul: 38/23 - pure ratio = 1.65"
Best to use a calc to factor in procs and other factors, but when comparing ratio should also factor in DB as a bare minimum. That helps see the effects of the lower delay while using MH. OH it doesn't factor in of course because of how sinister strikes works, but MH the DB is pretty important still. In that case you'd want to do (weapon damage + DB)/delay for both weapons and see how the numbers work out then. So 2.5 for tonfa and ~2.3 for maul (MH of course). Which means MH has ~8.5% increase from tonfa (ratio wise) instead of only ~0.6% improvement. Proc of course matters too. 8P
I just read that like 3 times Tastian, and I still don't understand! I thought i knew enough about weapons too, but i guess i was totally wrong!
Wonder how our epic fits in with the newly found DP improvement:
Spiritcaller Shard of the Ancient (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=89485)
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation type: All slot types
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
DMG: 2 AC: 10
STR: +10 DEX: +10 STA: +10 WIS: +10 AGI: +10 HP: +30 MANA: +30
SV FIRE: +5 SV DISEASE: +5 SV MAGIC: +5 SV POISON: +5
Attack: +30 Mana Regeneration: +3
Required level of 70.
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Note that you wont see that aug ever, it is an invisible augment that will be added to your epic upon handin of the correct page. Stats will just add like for normal augs however.
I dont know if those shards are datamined, as far as i know my guild got the first one (for necros) and it had an increase to the original epic focus of about 8%, the spiritcaller one doesnt have this according to lucy and that puzzles me a bit.
it does have that damage increase in it.
The pally one I saw linked (prolly datamined again) had a 4 damage mod on it.
This would make our epic 42/23.
I don't have a former guildie's Rainman ability to look at ratios & say what's better where w/o the calc'r.
Would epic still be used in 2ndary for this combo?
Well technically it would make our epic 40/23, and if you have blade warstone would be 42/23.
It was linked in guild chat last night, and people were complaining about it. Saying like it's a waste of an aug, and the stats are a waste and such. So i got in a huge arguefest with em, about how it is an upgrade to epic 2.0 and how could you complain about an upgrade.
Anyway, that's my story and i'm stickin to it
heh.. aye dreead.. was just thinking abt the epic at maxed damage effectiveness ;p
Quote from: Tastian on December 01, 2005, 11:02:18 PM
"Tonfu: 30/18 - pure ratio = 1.66
Runic Maul: 38/23 - pure ratio = 1.65"
Best to use a calc to factor in procs and other factors, but when comparing ratio should also factor in DB as a bare minimum. That helps see the effects of the lower delay while using MH. OH it doesn't factor in of course because of how sinister strikes works, but MH the DB is pretty important still. In that case you'd want to do (weapon damage + DB)/delay for both weapons and see how the numbers work out then. So 2.5 for tonfa and ~2.3 for maul (MH of course). Which means MH has ~8.5% increase from tonfa (ratio wise) instead of only ~0.6% improvement. Proc of course matters too. 8P
Can agree with Dreed... cant really figure out how u mean Tast.....
Altough i found interest for this line:
:?OH it doesn't factor in of course because of how sinister strikes works :?
That the dealy isnt as important in offhand i know, but "doesnt factor in"... Does that mean delay has NO effect in offhand? Would a 25/40 weapon be better then a 23/18 in offhand then? OK, extremem numbers but u get the point, can i just forget about the speed and get as high damage as possible for offhand? If u havent already, i would really appriciate a longer post that really explains those numbers, if its possible to get it easy enough for me to understand...
In mainhand you get a damage bonus on your weapon that cannot be mitigated so its a damage that has to be taken into account for every successfull swing (hit). The faster your weapon with a set damage bonus is the more often you will apply that damage therefore increasing your dps. Note, 1h weapons have a damage bonus of 15 until you get to pretty slowpoking weapons (switchover at 28dly?).
In offhand you normally dont have any damage bonus at all. If you buy the Sinister Strikes ability you get a damage bonus added to your offhand that is good for about 3 dps regardless of the speed of your weapon. Therefore damage bonus is interesting if you look for a mainhand weapon, but not if you look for an offhand weapon.
Tastian can probably explain it a lot better and i hope he will write something about this as well :evil:
On another note, there is an unconfirmed rumour that zajeer is working on demiplane weapon readjustment soon and will basicly upgrade the tonfa since it isnt really an upgrade to monks.
"Tastian can probably explain it a lot better and i hope he will write something about this as well"
Doubt I will explain it better, but here goes...
One of the major factors in weapon selection throughout the history of EQ has been the static MH Damage bonus(DB). This is a level based bonus to damage the MH deals on every successful hit. The OH doesn't have any damage bonus at all by default. However, "sinister strikes" adds a delay based DB(damage bonus) to the OH hits. Since the damage bonus to the OH is added based upon delay that means the delay of the weapon in OH has no baring on weapon efficency. That isn't to say delay doesn't matter, but rather to say that the DB doesn't factor into the equation.
Let's take a look at two classic EQ weapons...
Yak - 8/24 ~.33333333 ratio of damage to delay
EBW - 7/21 ~.33333333 ratio of damage to delay
Now here we have a case of 2 weapons that have an identical ratio, but different delays(yak also has a proc, but please ignore that for the momment). 8)
What we have to keep in mind though is that when used in the MH we get that oh so important DB. If we take the 15dmg DB, we see that...
yak - (8+15)/24 ~.9583333
ebw - (7+15)/21 ~1.047
See how once we factor in the DB for the MH even though both weapons have the same ratio one will clearly out perform the other? In this case the EBW is over 9% better in terms of ratio damage than the yak.
The MH DB is the reason for the old "fast weapon MH, slow weapon OH". In OH the delay won't matter and ratio tends to shine through.
Now, to be more accurate and at the risk of clouding things a bit more we have to realize that there is actually a mod to the weapons damage number, then the DB is added, and proc damage has to be factored in. Proc damage is actually very easy to calculate, but the mod for weapon daamge number varies based upon level/mob/atk/etc and is why the dps calculators are so useful. 8)
If for instance the mod to weapon damage was 2 instead of 1 like in the above example then we'd have...
yak = ((2X8)+15)/24 ~1.292
ebw = ((2X7)+15)/21 ~1.381
In this case the EBW would be ~6.9% ahead in MH. Down from before, but still a clear advantage.
Also, just because lots didn't understand the twig back in the day here's how it would work out in the MH...
twig - 3+15/10 1.8 or ~89% improvement over a yak.
When you realize the twig was dropping in FM and blowing...
lammy - 9+15/19 ~1.26
out of the water by ~43% suddenly the nerf to make it off hand only seems a bit more understandable(boy I miss it being MH though).
Sorry about getting off track. Anyway, the point is that you can't just look at the pure "ratio" of a weapon when evaluating a MH weapon because a 10/10 has the same ratio as a 20/20 as a 40/40, but the 10/10 will blow the others out of the water MH(all else being equal) because it applies the MH weapon bonus much more often. Procs, atk, and other factors will play a big part too, but just dividing the damage by delay can be extremely mis-leading.
Sorry if I confused more than I helped lol. Please feel free to PM me or e-mail me and I'll try to clarify. The weapon calcs we have are really the best way(outside of controlled parsing) to get an idea for how weapons will measure up againist each other. Especially as bst weapons tend to not perform as well as one might think compared to other weapons and I think that was a big part of our itemization issues for a couple of expansions.
hmm... :? well..... :? Tnx for trying, have read it twice now, will read it 3 more times later :?
Think i may gotten parts of it, will try it up at the dps calc. Aslo Allakzahm has a listed value for all wepons, MH and OH effeciency, can help a bit when looking for weapons.
What i dont know really and that u didnt mention i think is how we swing our weapons. No clue on the numbers here but as example:
Every round i swing my main hand, with lets say a delay of 1.1 seconds with haste on. On every swing id guess it makes a dual wield check.
My DW skill is maxed and i have all AAs for DW, so lets sy i DW 70% of the times. Does it then matter, that if i get 2 succesful
dual wields straight, the offhand weapons delay is not yet met and there for i cant swing it?
Or does it only use mainhands delay and makes a DW check and swing the off hand even if its 30 delay and i swung it 1 second ago?
did that make sense?
guess i could really just go with the dps calc and be happy, but im to curious for that :-D
IIRC, the damage increase from AMV to Tonfa is minimal at best. I was disappointed when I saw it linked the other night and compared it. You basically trade 1dmg for 1delay, which in the end makes the Tonfa better, but how much so? I've been almost disappointed nightly in regards to seeing Demiplane loot.
Gora - Ok let me try to step through this so if you don't understand something you can hopefully point out exactly what the issue is. Also you have a few wrong assumptions about how some game mechanics work, so here goes...
1) When you duel wield you have 2 unlinked weapons working on their own delays(where every 10 "delay" is 1 second). That means if you have a 10 delay weapon MH you will swing your MH once every second. If you have a 10 delay OH then every second you will make a DW check. If your DW check is successful(over 90% at level 70 with ambi), then you will make a swing. The OH swings regardless of the MH though. If I put my twig(10delay) off hand and have a 23 delay MH, then my MH will swing guaranteed every 2.3 seconds. However, every second my OH will make a DW check and when successful it will swing. In this case I would actually have a lot more OH swings than MH swings. The main point here is that the delay of the MH has no baring on the swings of the OH. There is no "round" persay as your MH will swing everytime its delay is up and the OH will swing whenever its delay is up and it makes a successful DW check.
2) Only the MH gets a flat damage bonus. ie +15 every MH hit(scales with level). This means if the weapon is a 10delay or a 20delay 1h it still gets the same +15. Since that damage gets added in every hit the DB can play a major role in weapon efficency. A 10delay weapon gets twice as much damage bonus damage MH as a 20delay weapon would.
3) The OH can gain a damage bonus, but that bonus scales with delay. This comes from sinister strikes(AA) and the amount of bonus damage scales with weapon. To keep it simple if a 10delay weapon gets X extra damage each hit a 20 delay weapon gets 2X each hit, and a 5 delay weapon would get one-half X every hit. This means that the extra damage coming from the damage bonus is the same in the OH regardless of delay.
4) Putting #2&3 together we see that the delay in MH can mean we increase the amount of damage bonus damage we do by simply using lower delay weapons in the MH, but that our damage bonus damage in the OH(if we have any) will always be the same. As a simplified example consider two weapons...
5) Lets look at how the DB in MH makes some "ratio" comparisions innaccurate.
a) Two weapons and their damage/delay
twig 3dmg 10delay 0.3 ratio
EBW 7dmg 21delay 0.333333~ ratio
Notice how the EBW has a higher ratio, so in theory it would do more damage?
b) Lets factor in the MH DB...
twig - 3(base damage of weapon) PLUS 15(flat rate damage bonus for MH) DIVIDED by 10(the delay) = 1.8
EBW - 7(base damage of weapon) PLUS 15(flat rate damage bonus for MH) DIVIDED by 21(the delay) ~ 1.047
c) Conclussions
In part A we see that the EBW has about an 11% lead on the twig in terms of ratio on the weapon. However, in part B we see that once we factor in the MH damage bonus the twig is actually ahead by almost 72%.
If we were to compare these two weapons in the OH then there is no need to factor in a DB because it actually scales with delay and will impact each weapon equally. Thus, for the OH the EBW would perform better because it has a better damage to delay ratio.
There are many other factors such as procs, procs working half as often in OH, ac, atk, etc. It's very difficult to get an accurate picture without parsing or using one of the calcs to get a ballpark. The main thing to remember though is that just looking at ratio can be very mis-leading even if the weapons don't have procs or anything else to complicate matters.
I hope that was a bit clearer and if not please lemme know and I'll see what I can do. 8)
Tnx for your time Tastian!
Think i figured it all out now. Sry for changeing topic a bit on the thread btw, maybe those posts by Tast should be moved to its own and sticky? Im sure im not the only one out there that wasnt sure how that worked.
ty tast... i was a lil confused myself. This was very useful to me. I'll still prolly depend mostly upon the calc'r to do that work for me, but it was nice to have a better understanding of how this thing works :)
For what it's worth, a lot of us are banking on the fact that Demiplane loot will receive an upgrade. These encounters are certainly more difficult than the pre-OMM fights while they don't reflect that in their stats. It's probably safe to say that Zajeer released these items on the light side in anticipation of making upgrades (as was done with Anguish), rather than starting too high and having even more people cry when the items are ``nerfed.''
The Cryptwood Tonfa may not be the clear winner now, but I bet it will be soon enough.
People keep asking even with that link early in the thread, so here are some pictures with dual tonfas:
(http://nitrous.org/rizz/eq/pics/tonfa1.jpg)
(http://nitrous.org/rizz/eq/pics/tonfa2.jpg)
(http://nitrous.org/rizz/eq/pics/tonfa3.jpg)
(http://nitrous.org/rizz/eq/pics/tonfa4.jpg)
Troll buttshot for the win!!
I admit, I half-expected the tonfa to be funky in an offhand similar to the claws facing the wrong way, but those really look nice!
Now I know why I didn't start a troll bst :-D
There was some confusion in serverwide chat earlier, so I thought it best to clear things up: Yes, I was really dual wielding tonfas during those screenshots. No, you can not wield more than one Cryptwood Tonfa at a time, those are two different weapons.
Keep in mind there is also a 3 dmg H2H only augment that drops in Demiplane - which will be really nice in either Tonfa or FFHW.
I dont think I will ever get the damage aug for my weaps.. I'll stick with life taps 1. less heals needed 2. dont we actualy do more dps from procs? I read that somewere.
You actually need a very big proc to beat 3 additional base damage. After all its not a flat added 3 damage to every hit like damage bonus but rather a ratio increase from 30.5/18 to 33.5/18 and therefore a substantial increase in base dps. Anyway, im kinda happy with the damage out so far, still have to do some base damage parsing of course, just hope to get the epic page too although that is probably a never ending story. Just one page for us in nearly 2 months of killing devlin. Oh, and that 1hb damage aug on top of that and 2.0 will just rock :P