The Beastlords' Den

I don't know how often many of you read or post on the official forums so I decided to post here.

There has been some discussion there about the reduction in agro from poison DoTs.  Many beastlords see the change as a huge nerf.  Without writing a book (you can go to the official forums to read all the comments) there are 2 aspects to this issue:

1)  Maintaining agro when tanking is much more difficult now and very mana intensive.
2)  Our ability to get snap agro is non-existant now and we can no longer fill the savior role.

I obviously am one of the beastlords that hate this change and I feel very strongly that we need to discuss ways we can regain our lost abilitys.  Every day I play post patch I notice things happening in groups that I never had problems with before.  I basically have very little control of situations anymore.  I can't take agro at will so I can no longer play the savior role.  I am constantly low mana from chain casthing spells to maintain agro when im tanking.  My groups have been chaotic the last couple days because I dont have 100% lock on agro as I would have pre-patch.  The mob will turn and smack the rogue or run to smack the wizard or cleric - things that never happened before.  Maybe many of you wanted the DoTs changed but with every passing day I get more disgruntled with playing my 'new' class.  It really irks me that I am being forced to completely change my play style after 3 years.

The only suggestion I have is add an AA with 3 ranks that will add agro back to our DoTs.  When we have the AA at max level we are playing the same class the same way we always did before.  Now that I think about it a DoT agro reduction AA would have been the absolute best way to address this issue from the beginning.  I dont think I am being unreasonable asking that I have the option to return my Beastlord to the same class I played before.  The class im playing now isnt the class I learned to love over 3 years.  Give me back my DoT agro please.

I always used tainted breath to keep agro, toss it in with a slow or 2 and voila, pretty decent agro on any exp grind mob...

What ive done is switch tainted breath to Incapacitate, toss in a slow or 2 and still have pretty decent agro, this works well, I partner with a 70 rogue (epic 2.0) and I don't lose agro too often, if I do she evades or I toss on another incapacitate.

The reason you never had problems is Tainted Breath is a poison DoT and was at one time very high agro.

I too play using the exact same methods you do.  I always used Incap in the past and still do.  What im saying is even with Incap agro isnt nearly as locked in as before.  You must chain cast now which ultimately lowers your overall DPS and leads to mana problems. 

Truely feel sorry that you feel the class has suddenly changed for the worse. However, i am of the opinion that this is a good change overall. Before this change i never loaded dots up because of the agro and the fact that 90% of the time they are resisted and yet i was still able to maintain agro when forced to tank. (Tanking isn't my favorite thing to do but i happen to think i can do it fairly well) Incapacitate and a couple casts of slow is what i have always used and still use when holding agro for tanking or grabbing agro from a cleric (Honestly saving an overcasting wizard/magician isn't something i look to do, they need to learn agro maintenance somehow). I've never been forced to chain cast these even when grouping with rogues/monks/wizards all in same group.

If people in your group are experiencing problems with getting agro it falls on them to change what they are doing. Rogues should honestly never be getting agro except for the occasional hit after a failed evade and monks the same except for failed FD. If your cleric is getting agro he should slow up on heals, use some HoTs and if he is being forced to chain big heals than maybe you should think about getting a 'real' tank class or moving to a slightly easier location. An Incapacitate + 2-3 slows each one only costing 150 mana each (with no mana pres) so ends up being close to if not less than using dots.

Since this change the DoTs have started making an appearance on my lineup. I am now more willing to try casting and landing a slow knowing that the mob won't turn on me immediately.

I am exactly the same situation as Urim.  I never used dots at all before, didn't need them for aggro, and couldn't use them on raids or when not tanking because of aggro.  I only need slow and incap to get aggro if I want it.

Beastlords were never intended to be a tanking class, that was a role that we found ourselves in because of AAs.  If that means that knights and warriors now have better aggro control than we do, then that's a good thing for the game as a whole.

I think that the gains in being able to do dps beat by far any losses in tanking.  Now we just need to be able to do even more dps.

I find it humorous that beastlords that do not choose the tanking or savior role as their primary play style are telling me that there are other methods I can use that are just as efficient as using the DoTs pre patch - its simply not true.  I am a beastlord that tanks for 90% of his XP groups I seek the tanking role because im comfortable with it and enjoy doing it.  I group with people that expect me to tank and have grouped with me enough to know that I can do it well.  A parse of my last 3 months of play shows the following:

Fights: 11000
Offensive Damage: 118,505,179 Total 35,806,890 from Pet
Damage Taken: 50,342,627

As you can see I stand in front of the mob quite a bit.  I know beastlord tanking and im saying that were no where near as efficient at maintaining agro as we were pre patch.  I will also state that our ability to get snap (or instanteous) agro is almost completely gone now.  If you are filling the off tank role in your group and its your job to clear casters of agro then post patch your ability to do so is severely limited.

I didn't ask that things be put back the way they were what I asked for was simply that we recognize there are many beastlords that hate this change and want a means to regain the snap agro that we lost.  I suggested a new AA that would return DoT agro to pre-change levels for those beastlords that CHOOSE to buy the AA.  If you prefer keeping DoTs as they are now then dont buy the AA - its simple.

The thing is, you can't look at this change with tunnel vision.  Sure, you may have to cast more/different spells to get the equivalent agro generation that our poison dots did, but we weren't the only class affected - necro's, shaman, chanters (PR counters on tash) were also affected and overall the change to counter agro generation is for the better, in my opinion anyway.

For me, this change has helped (I recently started botting my shaman after moving him to his own account) as he can actually contribute more whilst using his poison dots.

In XP groups our DoT's adds little to overall DPS due to long duration of the damage and having to cast something else, therefore dots primary role was for agro generation to allow offtanking. A single lower level nuke adds the same DPS as a DoT. Combined with our short term def disc we could offtank for short periods, saving group members from adds.

Now the agro generation takes longer, so I go back to my original argument from months back.

Sure reduce the agro on dots (which has been done) but give us a new agro spell. The new spell doing nothing but generate agro.

Anyways going back to history again, how come it took the actual change to be put in place before people started saying its wrong or would cause problems? Where was everyone to back up the couple people that didnt like the change when the proposal was first made so that the majority decision got carried.

The main change I've noticed isn't the loss of snap aggro, it's the loss of ranged snap aggro.

Previously I could cast Chimera on a mob that was beating on a caster and it would run to me pretty much regardless of what they'd done to it.  Now I have to run over there, and aggro snaps straight on to me with incap slow or chimera.

I tank a fair bit, offtank alot on raids.  It's more work than it used to be but chimera is 30-40 dps depending on focus and the freedom to use it whenever is a nice bonus I feel.

Now if only our disease dots were worth loading :)

Khayden

I always get a laugh reading these. I agree with Hereki and Urim though. We were never meant to tank. Also, you have to remember there was a couple other classes that used poison dots. I would load one in and just stare at it cause of the major aggro. Now I can feel comfortable enough to cast to kill a mob faster. Thats what there for, not aggro inducers to help kill mobs faster so you can work on next one.

If I want aggro, I resort to the old ways which was slow-incap-fol. That is still the best way to get aggro and also pet control. If the caster was brave enough to steal aggro he/she should be brave enough to take a few beatings.

Sorry, just the way I feel bout this whole aggro issue non sense. I look at it if you want to tank make a tank. I want to serve utility and DPS overall not a tank role.

Yes we can off tank, but we shouldnt have to keep doing it. Our job is to kill mob A as fast as possible so we can move on to mob B an so on.

My wife who plays a cleric knows her role very well in a group/raid. She knows not to over heal and if she does its her fault. She will usually cast invulnerable and that gives me enough time to steal aggro with those 3 spells i mentioned before along with moving pet to the new target. Also, you can steal aggro by chain casting a heal on the person too. Something ive been experimenting with since they upped our heals.

So no, our aggro is just fine now. You just need to learn some new technics or read some of the classic posts about generating quick aggro without dots.

Quote from: Jkal_Shihar on April 21, 2005, 10:48:57 AM
Sorry, just the way I feel bout this whole aggro issue non sense. I look at it if you want to tank make a tank. I want to serve utility and DPS overall not a tank role.

Yes we can off tank, but we shouldnt have to keep doing it. Our job is to kill mob A as fast as possible so we can move on to mob B an so on.

Offtanking is a big part of our utility, and it's right to have concerns if it becomes much more difficult.  My experience so far has been that it is only a little more difficult which is fine with me.  Having slow and protective spirit makes us alot more capable of offtanking mobs in some situations than any other class.

Our job is much more than just DPS and a beastlord who plays every role offered by the class to the maximum possible can make a big difference to any group or raid.

Khayden

If you are that worried and want to tank that bad.... GET AN ANGER AUG for your weapons.  Load lvl 50 slow if your concerned with mana. 45 mana and good aggro.  less then 2 sec cast.  toss on a few cheapies, and pummel away.

QuoteOur job is much more than just DPS and a beastlord who plays every role offered by the class to the maximum possible can make a big difference to any group or raid.

Exactly.

Many of you claim that we were never intended to tank.  I reply that snare was never intended to allow kiting.  The bottom line is we can tank so many of us do.  We fill the off tank role very well so many groups and guilds relied on us to do so.  We have low AC but good evasion and a short term defensive skill that combined with our slow attack rate (fewer ripostes then any other melee class) results in us being a damn good tanking class.    We are a generalist class and can do many things well and there are many ways to play this class - none more correct then the other.  Some of us prefer the tank role to the pure dps role.  If you prefer the DPS role great have at it.

I, for one, feel that what we gave up when poison DoT agro was changed was far more valuable then the DPS we gained.  I argued against this change from the beginning because I knew it would negately impact my play style.

QuoteI, for one, feel that what we gave up when poison DoT agro was changed was far more valuable then the DPS we gained.  I argued against this change from the beginning because I knew it would negately impact my play style.

So, what bout that necro that wants to use his/her poison dot in a raid/group. Or the shaman that can finally load some his poison dots or better yet that poison DD he got but couldnt use due to the aggro. To me, that is selfish thinking if you dont also count in other classes that have the same type of spell and they would love to use em to at least account for some DPS.

The aggro issue has been brought up many many times and the majority feel it was for the better. We have two types of dots we use disease and poison. Why one generated more aggro then the other IMHO was a bad design flaw. I dont look at it as a nerf but reality check that was made right.

I hate tanking personnally, can I do it? yes in a pinch. But I dont want that to be the only thing groups rely on me for. Lately since shamans had the nerf on there one spell which I think was a major nerf, I've had more groups asking me to join to be there slower then a tank or dps.

If you like to tank, have at it. But some of us would like to be able to sit there dish out some damage and use those dots without a repurcussion to our other ability and that is DPS.

And snare can be use as a aggro magnet as well but most rangers I know use the lvl 9 one since it pisses the mob more then there higher version and casts much faster for chaining it.

Tast knew this was a touchy area but if he thought it wasnt for the better he would not have submitted it. Fact is, we have other spells that work just as well. Use those if you really want that aggro to stay and tell the rangers you group with not to snare then.

I guess I play a different game then many. When tanking I can slow on incoming, drop a nuke, start meleeing and rarely lose agro. Yes the poison dot would absolutely lock in agro but mana use was to high while chain pulling so it was not used. If I lost agro, just toss out another slow and it was a done deal.

I love the new lower agro generation. Can now toss it on a mob without pulling agro from an SK who is trying to keep agro.

Quote from: ZannarI find it humorous that beastlords that do not choose the tanking or savior role as their primary play style are telling me that there are other methods

No, i don't play that as my primary role but that doesn't mean that i don't play that role often. Before the change, i tanked in RSS for 2.5 horus while waiting for another tank to go LFG. The group consisted of 2 monks and a wizard (cleric and me obviously) and held agro pretty damn good (no dots btw). Since the patch i had to tank for a RSS group for 2 hours while waiting for a tank to go LFG. Guess what!? In a group of wizard, rogue and monk i STILL didn't have any problems holding agro over them. This is only 2 of the times ive been forced to tank, the actual number is far too large to even count and i have only rarely ever had trouble holding agro.

And when it comes to playing the savior role for casters, dots were too long of a cast time anyway. The best method i have found for saving casters has been to first run to the mob to start meleeing while casting slows and nukes (especially now that nuke cast times have been reduced). Range has a large part to do with agro so if your trying to steal agro while far away you wont get nearly as well of a result as when your standing on top of the mob. Plus as i said above, some casters you just have to let die or else they will never learn.

So whats the difference between you and me? You would rather come to boards and whine about wanting things changed back to being worse for everyone except maybe you and few others. When what you should be doing is thinking a couple minutes about EVERYONE else (like shamans and necros) and then figuring out it isn't any harder now than it ever was. All you need to do is think a little. Expand upon what you already know and utilize some of your other spells (spells which are far less mana intensive than dots).

Quote from: Urim on April 22, 2005, 12:50:37 AM
You would rather come to boards and whine about wanting things changed back to being worse for everyone except maybe you and few others.

When did I call to have things changed to how they were pre-patch for everyone?  Quote me saying that my friend and then call me a whiner.

What I said ecactly was:

QuoteI suggested a new AA that would return DoT agro to pre-change levels for those beastlords that CHOOSE to buy the AA.  If you prefer keeping DoTs as they are now then dont buy the AA - its simple.

How does that effect shamans and necros (many of whom also hate the change because it negatively impats their agro kiting with the level 70 rogue pet)?

I dont care how you play your beastlord.  I care how I play my beastlord and all im asking is I have the option to play the class the same way I did for 3 years.  I never suggested we shove a change down your throat like you so obviously are happy to shove down mine.  Now if you have something constructive to add to this discussion please do.

adapt.............

As I posted earlier I used to use the dot for agro, change my spell line up to use incapacitate instead of the dot, and voila agro again.

I also tank a good 80% of my exp groups, I had to adapt to the change, wasn't hard, didn't kill me.

Its a good change over all, cause poison dots affect other classes other than just us, necros/ shamans...

If SoE were to implement an AA to improve agro on poison DoT's I would probably buy it, but only cause the aa I have left is trash.... otherwise wouldn't be high on my list if at all.

They already implemented an AA to reduce the agro generated by all spells. Spell Casting Subtelty. This AA was screamed for by wizards/shamans/necros/clerics ... hell just about everyone who can cast a spell. It sucks that we don't have access to this AA because then this change might not have been asked for so much. However, we don't and even if we did this change would have still been asked for by the shamans and necros and me. 
The likelihood of them adding a new AA that basically reverses that one AA is slim to none. Again im sorry you feel your class was changed but thats just a feeling, class wasn't changed at all. How you play might have to change but its not like its going to be a life altering change that will make you feel like a rogue or a enchanter. You are still a beastlord.

Yes, i am more than happy to shove a change down your throat because its the best thing for the game and for the vast majority. Adapt as my guildmate put it. It's not something thats hard to do. Open your eyes and look at other opportunities than the GREAT DOTS! Suggestions have been made on this thread which work just as good if not better. Asking SoE to make changes because your unwilling to change isn't the way to go about it.

As a shaman main with beastlord twink, I can say without a doubt, that this change was very well received by myself.  In any type of environment, I just was not able to use my poison dots period, because of the agro associated with them.  One cast of one dot was enough to keep me getting summoned half the fight, no matter who the tank was.  Adding a second poison dot was nearly suicide, and that's not even counting the shaman who has dot crits.

As for it's effect on beastlords, well, you learn to adapt or you don't survive.  There are plenty of ways to gain agro.  On my shaman, if I need to quickly get agro to get somehting off of a another healer, I just chain cast slow and/or cripple, and that usually does the trick nicely.  It's the same with a beastlord.  Look at the bright side, you now get to use poison dots and not have to worry about unneeded agro when you aren't the main tank.

Reading this thread has reinforced my opinion that this change was the right change to make.  Only a few beastlords had any objections when it was proposed, and it would seem that majority are still in favor of it.

One small point, though: necros don't really care.  If they get aggro, they FD, so it doesn't have a big impact for most.  A few take a similar position to the antis here, that the 70 (rogue) pet will get aggro if they send it in immediately when using only dots for aggro.  That's a similar position to the objectors here, but with the majority of necros not pro or anti the change.

Please, No more AA suggestions. We have too many as is. I did the exact same test you did though and my friends are pretty much either elemental or oow geared while i'm in ldon and bazaar. I still held aggro better then they did.
But we started going over the fights and it took me longer to get aggro due to the cast times on casting dots then it did just slow/incap/fol. Which is the way I use to gain aggro when I was forced to tank. But just like what Urim said, there are some casters you have to let die if there to ever understand about there aggro control.
Sorry but I am not gonna be a savior for some player that just goes nuke/tash or what ever happy and does not know how to control there aggro one bit.
The poison dot is more in line with the disease dot and thats how it should be for aggro. Some just learned to use that instead of the faster caster spells we have cause of the damage. I'm just surprised many bst would bother casting a dot at all if there tanking due to the cast time.
Plus most chanters I group with hate when we dot to begin with. Especially on adds, they would rather you send in the pet to keep its attention while they mez it again.
You have to learn how to play the old ways which if you find some posts most never used dots, even for snap aggro.
It was a good change and to keep bringing it up is just beating that dead horse. Adapt and rethink your stragedies and it will be like it never happened.

maybe it's just me, maybe it's just cause of my weapons, but wth... when im tanking rss / mpg, i cast slow on inc, one incap, 2 if i want to be sure, then agro is on me for the whole fight. thats in a group with a mage chain nuking, a rogue not evading, a ranger not jolting (and he was nuking, i was only nuking once in a while, not a mana issue, 15 worn FT, clicky mana regen, SA, c6). incap is pretty fast cast at 70. around the same as CB. and slow is very fast cast too. snap agro is still in place, just replace your tools. when i tank, i use incap, tried TB, gave me LESS agro then incap and CB was too mana intensive to keep using it whenever i needed the snap. like it was said before, adapt... it's a part of the game, it's a part of life.

Using DoTs as a way of getting snap aggro is kind of bass ackwards anyway.  Not to say that it didn't work before, but it was a roundabout way to make otherwise useless spells have a purpose.  If beastlords need a way to get snap aggro to offtank things then they should just give us an ability that does that.  It's like monks complaining about the change to Dragon Fang aggro.  That also was an ability that was supposed to be a dps boost but had unintentionally high aggro so monks were using it as a poor-man's taunt instead of a melee nuke like they were supposed to.  Buying an AA that adds aggro to your DoTs would be a shortsighted move for any beastlord who got it, since that would then permanently mean that your DoTs were high-aggro and you couldn't use them for plain old dps, ever.

Maybe beastlords (or monks, since I mentioned them) weren't meant to have snap aggro.  Maybe they were, I dunno.  But if the latter is true, then the solution is to add some snap aggro abilities, not to re-introduce a game mechanic that hampers the use of DoTs for those times when you *don't* want aggro (which can happen, even if you fancy yourself as an offtank).

I personally very much like this change.   I have not used poisen dots much since way back in PoP when 90 percent of the tanks I grouped with could not handle the aggro.  I have also not been a fan of them tanking since they took so much more mana compared to using something like incapacitate or another slow would do the job 80 percent of the time a caster got aggro.  Our poisen dots can still build aggro time though and are not a waste to use while tanking, at least from what I have found. 

This change overall is better for the game.  We have many other tools at our disposal to do what you want to do, do it well, and for the same mana output, even though it requires a shift in play style.

Kat

/agree Bengali

I guess where I played alot of characters to see what they did, the way dots where suppose to work in my opinion was just some added dps to help kill a mob faster. I never saw them as snap aggro spells, especially the way a few use them.

When I solo, I take my time so mana is usually no biggie. I always slowed on pull, incap, disease dot, Scorp, CB, nuke nuke and melee besides pet.

When grouped, cause of the over aggro on the dots, I usually had a seperate spell set, but still it was slow, incap, (FoL for aggro if needed), nuke nuke nuke.

Anyways, what you said makes sense and if they want us as offtanks there should be a spell to get a mobs attention quickly.

I think the dichotomy expressed here is a reflection of the gameplay experience of each side's proponents. Rading vs casual gamers. To raiders, agro generated by poison dots was a hinderance, a necessary reduction in dps due to an inability to cast dots. To casual gamers, agro generated by poison dots was a godsend. Casual gamers dont worry about max dps the same way raiders do. I personally never parsed myself and have no wish to.  If I was in an exp group and tanking, I used my poison dot to get and maintain agro and obtain snap agro on adds. It was an implementation of a flaw in the spell design that we got used to dealing with and using. If I wasnt the main tank in the exp group, I either waited to cast my poison dots or didnt use them at all if the tank couldnt hold agro when I used them.

The bottom line is, the casual gamers took a hit for the raiding beastlords. Its typical of Sony as raiders always take priority.  Sure, I can get agro with slow, incap and dots now. Sure, it takes longer but that is not a huge issue. The problem I have is the loss of snap agro I got from ONE cast of my poison dot no matter where the mob was. I could cast chimera and peel a mob from the cleric or other caster without disrupting my attention on the first mob in camp for more than the cast of one chimera. THAT part of snap agro is gone now. Do you really think its possible to gain instant agro by casting three or four spells? I am not saying that the change was bad for all of us. I am just saying that it affects some of us negatively and that  it is  ignorant to suggest that it doesnt.

Raiders wanted increased dps by reducing dot agro and they got it. This change has no positive meaningful effect upon casual gamers, and it does have a significant change to our utility in regular experience groups.

I have to laugh when people say their dots are resisted on raids too much and that this change isnt much of a benefit to them. Well then I have to ask: why did we ask for this change in the first place? It certainly wasnt directed at casual gamers and if it doesnt change the use of dots on raids then what good is it?

I think you aren't looking at the big picture.

This change wasn't just for beastlords.  It was for every class that has poison dots.  The shammies I have talked to love this change because now they can actually dot and contribute more when before they were unable to do so due to aggro.  Most of the necros I have talked to have just been neutral on it, since with FD they don't seem to have many aggro issues.

In addition, raiders weren't the only ones irritated by the aggro generated by dots.  In just normal pickup exp groups I found that if I used poison dots, tanks had a difficult keeping aggro.  While I am in pretty good shape on defensive aa it is just a waste of healer mana for me to get aggro when there is a nice, beefy tank up there to do it for me.

I myself am neutral about the change, since I never really used poison dots for aggro in the first place.  I always preferred slows and incap for aggro since they don't break mezz.  I have no objection to them adding some kind of snap aggro aa, but I probably wouldn't buy it.  I don't expect to see one though because I don't belive SoE envisions us as a tanking class.  Who knows though?  Sometimes they do the most unexpected things...

It's not "dot aggro" that was reduced, it was "extra aggro from poison counters" that was eliminated.  That's a huge difference.  Chanters complained about tash being too much aggro because of the poison counter.  Shamans complained about the aggro from poison counters.  So did necros.  It wasn't just beastlords, and it wasn't just people who raided. 

The fact that some people got a benefit out of a busted game mechanic isn't really a reason to keep it busted, imo.  It's better to fix it, and deal with the other benefit seperately if it's necessary to do so.  There was never a good reason for poison counters to be treated any differently from disease counters or from curse counters, period.  When asked why it was there, none of the devs could give you a reason, and if they had it wouldn't have been "so beastlords can get snap aggro."

Quote from: Rhoam on April 25, 2005, 07:54:52 PM
I think the dichotomy expressed here is a reflection of the gameplay experience of each side's proponents. Rading vs casual gamers.

Please, this isn't raiders vs casual, don't try to turn it into that.  I'm as casual as they come (although I have raided), and this change doesn't invonvenience me in the least.  In part because I never had spare mana to to waste on dots.

I'm with Hereki on this as well. Of course I just joined a casual raiding guild (my god two words that most wont think fit together  :evil: ).

I was bout as casual as you could get. I love casting dots when I have the mana. I was one of the beasties who asked for or actually stood behind having our poison dots more in line with disease dots. My one buddy who three boxes a shaman said he loves it. He can cast the poison rain and now not really worry bout that toon while he hacks away with his pally.

Like I mentioned, its just one of those things that many that used that dot as a poor way to snap aggro is going to have to adapted. And if they did make a aggro aa, i'm in the same boat. Doubt I would ever get it. I'm just sick of too many AA's as it is. Rather see a spell instead so your below 50 bst that likes to tank can get also and probably progress for the 60's bst as well.

And I'm a raider who never really had a problem with using poison dots on raids or in groups and still doesnt.

No idea how someone came to the conclusion this was a raider vs casual thing.

It's simply about how people play their beastlords in any situation and how they will adapt.

Khayden

if my memory is correct, disease counters used to be high agro as well. SK's used to use a really low level DR dot for agro, then it was changed cause other DoT casters asked for it to be changed. there was some complaints, but overall, most people were happy with that change. i'm a raider, i'm happy with the change. not for upping my dps only, but cause now when i group with necros, or shamans, or even a lower end gearred bst then me (i'm usually MT'ing my groups) i dont have to tell them to watch agro from poison dots. i slow on inc, incap, incap, and then just melee and sit back. even if they use poison dots, i'll be able to keep agro off them. like it or not now, you'll eventually get used to it, just like SK's got used to their disease dot agro removal.

Hmm, I dont see how anyone can say they never had a problem with the agro out poison dots used to generate. I know I had problems unless I was main tanking or grouped with a non warrior as tank.

As far as raid vs casual, the early top ten lists identified dot agro as a problem on raids. Look at the top ten tists from about 6 months ago and you will see it.  There was no concern over dot agro in regular exp groups from a beastlord standpoint mentioned.  Only tongue in cheek comments about bsts going down on raids right after the mt did due to dot agro.i do see that this benefits other classes though (but my necro friend was still yanking agro from me with his poison dots last night even after slow, incap, incap and a bst dot).

i dont really have a problem with the change from a tanking standpoint. I do have to cast three spells now instead of two (one slow and two incaps) and I do have to ask shaman and chanters to let me cast them before they use their debuffs or I cant get agro without using fol then. i have told my regular group members that it is going to take me three spell casts to get agro and hold it now and they are adjusting somewhat.  But I dont have an answer for snap agro. I cant get snap agro with incap reliably and I will have to try fol and hope it doesnt cause problems with a mob running off and bringing back a train. I am not sure fol will work as I would be tanking the primary mob and not close enough to the add to get agro from fol. I guess we will have to rely on root parking or mezzers more than we used to.

I know the snap agro aspect may have been unintended as part of the spell. But we did have it and it was a nice tool that we dont have anymore. That's all I am saying.

I found this weekend what a difference there is in the DoT spells.
I would keep my highest DoT memed, to grab agro away from a mob beating on a caster. In my guild, I was the "sweeper" in a raid, picking up repops, roamers, or any nuisance mob.
I have had to adapt. I tried the dispell line, I tried incapacitate, and slows. The slows seem to work the best at grabbing agro. Not nearly as well as the old DoT's did, however.

Slow only works well if you cast if the very first thing before anyone gets agro, it performs very poorly in the snap agro ability.

That is what the issue is, the loss of snap agro not the agro reduction on the dots.

This is not only about being able to get Agro in a group on a single mob. This is about being able to grab Agro on a mob that you do not have initial Agro on. Let me give you and example, since RS was mentioned in some ones post ill use that. OK you pull a mob, and your the tank, the mob gets to about 50% and you get an add. The cleric heals you getting the initial Agro on this mob, OMG NOW WHAT. The way things are now that cleric is toast and so is the group! With  out our snap Agro from Slows/Dots/Incap we are not going to be able to grab that Agro before the cleric dies. There is almost now way you are going to maintain Agro on both the mobs, well yes you can because i have but omg the down  time after that is sad from all the chain casting. Then what the group wypes all because you all wanted a DPS increase. OK where is the dang DPS increase, your dots will never land on high end mobs, they take to long in a group fight, the mob will be dead before you dot helps much and they are a waste of mana, so why use them at all. You are not going to land many dots on high end mobs like in Tacvi/Anguish shoot even in Qvic. Your best bet for added DPS is to use your cold nukes, i crit over 2k with my nukes and very often. They have a .5 cast time and a shorter refresh now, and also they cost less mana.

For those who say a Beast was never meant to be a tank, HEH you have no clue what a beast can do. If we are put in the position that we have to tank we can mostly out Agro any class in the game, before the patch that is. Yes, we don't have the AC/HP and paly, SK, or war dose but we can get darn close. Raid buffed i sit at 13400hp and 2100 AC, plus beastlords get high avoidance and damage mitigation, If we get these tools why not have the ability to use them if the need arises.

i'll only comment on 2 parts of what you said Keonos, cause it's late and im tired =p i'm always tanking in rs when i'm not in a guild group, so i need to be fast on getting agro when i get adds. yes CB was faster, but almost more mana intensive then it is for me atm. adds, i usually see coming, so i immediately(spelling /off) switch targets and cast slow asap, then 1 incap, switch back to main target (easy with the toggle between targets) to hold back agro (another incap on it) then back on add for one final incap for solid agro. i play in 3rd person view, i see almost everything, and my clerics are not idiots, they dont sit 2 miles away from me, cause they know i need to be close to them if i'm to make sure they dont die (old habit of playing a warrior, no chasing = faster agro). as for landing dots in anguish, i land them plenty enough. one is immune to one type, the other one to another type and the 3rd one, i dont remember if he is immune to anything, cause i'm usually too busy to be dps'ing on him (sorta complicated if you never did the fights, and dont want to give spoilers if that is the case). as for the jevlan event / am, i didnt get to test cause i only been on one of the wins for each and was too busy to do tests this time as well. omm, i died 20 seconds after engage from i dont even know what so didnt get to test there either. as for DoN, never tested cause i'm usually helping shaman in my group to heal the group (i'm in a dps group usually, rogue, bard, shaman, monk, bers or ranger, me). as for txevu/tacvi, no idea, never set foot there, hopefully never will. bsts are not -meant- to be tanks, but yeah, we do the job damn well, did we do it better pre-modification?(i wont call it a nerf, cause i dont see it as one) i dont think so.

I have to agree with Firriann, the change ( not nerf ) to dots did not result in me changing the way I tank at all. My agro line up while tanking has always been slow/incap and I have never noticed a problem in obtaining/holding agro in any group.

Also, in reference to Keonos' post, the recast time on our cold nukes has NOT been changed, it is till 30 secs, same as it has always been.

Keonos, I'm tired of all this argueing.
So, let me start off. YES I KNOW WHAT A BEASTLORD CAN AND CAN NOT DO. there, now thats off my chest. I would have to aggree with Firriann. I've watched her fight. She can keep aggro without ever using a dot. To all you that think the dot was the end all be all for snap aggro, You have no idea how to play then. Sorry if I'm coming off rash, but when I had to Tank (and I hate tanking) I was always able to keep aggro without, Let me repeat that, WITHOUT EVER CASTING A DOT.
Sorry for the caps Tast, this topic to me is just making sure the dead horse stays dead.
Look, even before the so called *nerf* which was a *FIX*. How many honestly used a dot for aggro management. The only time I used a dot was on an add that I had to off tank cause the chanter was chain casting mezz on 3 other mobs. That usually results in a dead chanter no matter how good they are. So now you have 5 mobs, 3 mezz'd and ticking down and 1 the MT is on and one you are on.
I can usually handle 2 if I have too. But its the MT's job to quickly establish aggro with there skills cause its what there made for. And I'm using MT very loosely cause I know some bst's opt for that role. But usually with slow and incap and standing toe to toe and casting FoL I have never lost aggro except when the healer uses CH which will always happen.
All they did was lower the aggro on the dot so it could be used for other applications that most would finally see fit. Sucks having a spell that you are afraid to mem cause it usually meant, MT down ST cant get aggro cause some bst casted a dot to help knock off a few extra htpts, then that mob goes after the next PC that casted a dot and usually the ST got aggro.
Most raids I have been on never seen a Bst to be MT or ST anyways on the boss mob. That role is suppose to be reserved for the plate guy anyways (warrior, pally, sk).

Yes plate tanks are the choice of raids, but most comments here have been argued about groups not raids.

In reality this is one of those arguments that neither side will compromise on thier viewpoint and is going endlessly in circles.

Some BST's never used DoT's in the first place to maintain agro, so do not know how easy it was with a dot to get agro with the sole purpose of tanking.
My Reality is that DPS while tanking from useing the dot technique has dropped due to casting more spells to maintain agro. I especially have significant problems getting agro from monks requiring chain casting of FoL and 2-4 slows.

Others say - look at the bigger picture, it wasnt just BST's that wanted the agro reduction.
In reality we see a split in the necro camp, they have FD the ultimate deagro ability anyway. Shaman's love it because like BST's they generated too much agro from DoT's and unlike BST's they never tanked.
The only clear winning class here was the Shaman, 2 out the 3 are not fully agreed that the change was a good one.

Whereas most BST's want a DPS increase the DPS from the DoT's is small in comparisson to loading another of the new faster nukes - see Bengali's thread for that discussion.

Nothing is getting sorted here and people are getting more irate.

By far the simplest and easiest thing to do is give a snap agro generating mechanism to replace the previous dot. However it should be bourn in mind that the reason the dot was soo effective was that it was a DoT in the first place, so the agro replacer would need to be greater that the agro lost from the DoT to have the same effect.

and with that I do agree with you Jitathab.

This is just one of those topics where no one is gonna agree on. All I can say is if you want snap aggro back send feedback on a new ability. Make up a spell how it should work submit it in. Give Tast some ideas so he can feedback also for those that want it.

Think I'm done on this topic till something is said to help those that find tanking a viable role as a bst. With that, I would back up.

Well, I guess I dont know how to play my beastlord, because NOTHING and I do MEAN nothing we have at the moment replaces the snap agro we got from our dots. Sure, I can use my slow and incap (usually use incap quite a few times) to get agro, but its just not as fast as the snap agro from my dots was. Just an example, I was grouped with a druid who was snaring mobs at 95%, almost at the point where they came into camp. I was feverishly casting my incaps after having pulled with my slow, and I could not keep agro off the druid. I relunctantly asked her to wait to slow until later in the fights but she raised a concern that the mobs were resisting her slow and that she wanted to cast it as soon as she could to make sure it landed before it was REALLY an issue. In the past, I would slow and dot and NEVER lose agro. Now, its a bit more of a challenge and I have found myself doing something I dont like: asking other people to change their playstyles to accomodate my inability to get agro and hold it.  The other situation, as stated before, is adds and using dots to gain instant agro. It just takes more casts of incap and if incap is resisted well, sometimes the poor caster dies. But, I guess I need to learn more on how to play my beastlord, cause I do believe dots were the be all and end all for snap agro even if the change was a fix (I agree it was) and not a nerf. After reading your response to Jita's post Jkal, it seems you agree that snap agro needs to be replaced some other way now that the dot snap  agro is gone, so maybe you would agree that our dot agro was the be all and end all for snap agro afterall? :-D

As far as getting a replacement tool for snap agro, dont hold your breath. How long did warriors have to wait before discs and anger augs were placed in the game to let them compete with palys and SKs? I mean, we arent supposed to be a tanking class, it wasnt intended that we be one.  Maybe SOE will change that as well in the upcoming re-envisionment? Looking at the new pet heals on test, who the heck knows what changes they will make. But I dont see them giving an agro tool to a class that wasnt intended to be a tanking class. Maybe I should look at an anger aug, but then I would lose dps procs and crit procs and I would most likely not use my best weapon for the aug so I would lose dps that way as well.

"Now, its a bit more of a challenge and I have found myself doing something I dont like: asking other people to change their playstyles to accomodate my inability to get agro and hold it."

I think this sums up things pretty well.  Like I said aggro control is more interactive for us and we have to pay more attention, but we can still hold aggro and tank fairly well.  It's not like we are totally incapable of tanking or holding aggro off people.  Also remember that aggro control is supposed to be a group effort.  Sure it was nice to have people go crazy and cast whatever/whenever and not worry about it before, but really aggro control is not only about the person holding it building it up, but also others keeping there's down a bit.  I mean good lord how hard have some beastlords worked in groups to not yank aggro? hehe  Imagine if we told people before "hey my chimera blood needs to run it's duration that's why I'm pulling with it" lol.  Someone that can't even wait literally 5 more seconds to drop a spell in a case like that is seriously the problem, not your aggro generation or understanding of the class imo.  *shrugs*

I'm with the camp of the DOT aggro reduction being a good thing. These were never meant to have this effect, in the first place, and it wasn't just a fix for beastlords, but for any class that had poison dot agro.

Normally I had to struggle in groups when not tanking to keep from getting agro, even with ehc/shaman doing slows, not using incapicate or DOT's, most groups I'm at the top of the DPS output, and depending on tank, have to scale back my damage initially, or I get agro. Have never when tanking had a problem maintaing agro, just with slow. One trick I have alwasy used is to make sure pet has taunt on; PAMAAC (Pet Assisted Main Assist Agro Control ), see link below; did some research on the board today, to find some articles on this. This should help to keep casters from getting agro, as long as they are not in melee range of mob. Also if at all possible always get pet some weapons. Was tanking in WoS last nite, am only level 68 with 193'ish AA's, nothing much better than baz. gear; using the pet taunt and slow, I never lost agro one single time. I normally put pet on mob before engaging myself, but is only 2-3 sec difference... we started off with all guild members, monk pulling; but as it was getting late, they all left one by one, and ended up with 5 LFG players over time, that I've never played with, including 2 other beastlords, never had a problem. the group cycled through, most all other classes, except War/pal/sk tanking classes, even had an enchanters for a bit, and many pure casting classes, 2 different clerics.

If people are then still pulling agro off you, chances are they would be doing the same thing if there was a warrior tanking, or any other plate class, for that matter; then they would start getting told, they need to manage thier agro better. No reason we should be able to hold agro any better than a plate class; that we could at one point was never really meant to be. However,that being said, it would be great if SOE would give us some sort of taunt, maybe a new disc, we've got a whole 4 discs now. Can almost imagine the uproar from that of being overpowering, so doubt that it will ever happen.

There was another couple of threads, on getting extra agro, from sitting when you sic your pet on mob.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,1336.0.html
If your pet's first attack against a mob is while the owner is sitting, you automatically get a 'sit aggro bonus' - that is, if you sit down the mob will hate you quite a bit more than sitting does normally.  If the pet hits the mob while you are standing, you are simply added to its hate list and really have no aggro - the mob just knows you need to be killed at some point.

So, if all else fails you could use this as bonus agro when you want it. Park pet a few steps in front of you, sit down, on incoming, /pet attack, slow, pet's taunting, and stunning/proc'ing, DOT/nuke; doubt at this point a raid force of warriors dual welding crowbars could yank agro off you.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,939.30.html

Coprolith :
PAMAAC (Pet Assisted Main Assist Agro Control   ) would be most noticeable in small groups where the MA doesnt have the ability to lock agro. A beastlord as MA in a group with only caster's and priests can let its pet lock the agro instead of spending tons of mana on chaining DoTs and Incapacitate. A warrior may switch from his agro weapons to his dps weapons if he only has one other melee (you) to keep agro over. Just instruct your group to watch for pet proc messages, and not to start blasting away until the pet has procced a few times. There'll still be limits tho, a wizzie landing 3 crits in short succession stands a good chance to get smeared into a pulp.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,2122.0.html

Coprolith :
consider the main agro builder for us to be our warder. There's a definite advantage in being the only melee'er in a group. When there are no other melees around the pet's huge agro generation will insure that the mob stays on the nearest PC in melee range, that is, you.


http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php?topic=1385
Jaeren :

One thing to check and while it may seem stupid, make sure pet taunt is on. I've gotten in the habit of summoning pet & turning it off, sometimes forgetting that fact

Edit: I also moved this (leaving a shadow topic in the general forum) to the Library since it's a helpful thread for those of us that need to get agro


http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,939.15.html

Quote from: Tastian on May 03, 2005, 07:18:30 PM
"Now, its a bit more of a challenge and I have found myself doing something I don't like: asking other people to change their playstyles to accommodate my inability to get agro and hold it."

This is the main problam with this yes dare i say it again NERF!!! Anything that makes us have to ask people to change the way they play to compensate for our lacking from a patch is crap.

Quote from: jitathab on May 03, 2005, 12:33:52 PM
Yes plate tanks are the choice of raids, but most comments here have been argued about groups not raids.

This not only a problem in groups but in raids also. It was known fact before this patch that in raids i could grab agro faster than any class. This landed me the role of MA allot because i could get agro of that add tank and keep so he could pick up another mob. Beasts make one of the best add tanks there is, just think about it. We can slow and debuff our own mob, and we can self heal during the fight depending on how hard the mob hits.

Quote from: Jkal_Shihar on May 03, 2005, 10:45:23 AM
Keonos, I'm tired of all this argueing.
So, let me start off. YES I KNOW WHAT A BEASTLORD CAN AND CAN NOT DO. there, now thats off my chest.

OK, this ain't argue meant people lol, this is a discussion about our class getting changed and not to liking of allot of people. They of you that asked for the change got it, but allot of us didn't ask for this and for dang sure hate this stupid change. There need to be an option for those who wanted it to change to have a way to change it on themself only so those who did not want this could leave it the same. Give us a new agro spell or give us a DOT agro decreasing AA or something but the way it is not is just un fair to people who have been playing a certain way for over 3 years and are forced to play a class that is not what is was when we started.
In reply to your first remark, i was trying to get people heated up and basically it worked. My point was that before this patch the was nothing a beastlord could not do, but now we have lost some, NOR ALL , of our tanking ability. For me and allot of others that love to tank this hurt us greatly and we just want to get our class that we came to love back to the way it was, some how.

Quote from: sunkash on May 03, 2005, 07:57:51 PM
I'm with the camp of the DOT agro reduction being a good thing. These were never meant to have this effect, in the first place, and it wasn't just a fix for beastlords, but for any class that had poison dot agro.

To be honest our DOTS are junk. How often do they land? How much DPS is lost in the time its going to take you to cast and land that dot? How much mana did you waste trying to do this? OK OMG that dot landed but HMMM the mob died 2 sec after it landed! Dots are not good in groups with high DPS, the fight is over to fast for the dot to do any good so use cold nukes. As far as the dots suppose to have this effect, well they have for ever and for all the classes who use them. Take necros for example , this is big part of how they solo. Was snare suppose to be a agro spell that people could to rabbit a mob, hmm no but it works. We where given these tools and many embraced them and now to loose this is a travesty.

Quote from: Shirrkarn Ayge on May 03, 2005, 10:10:07 AM
I have to agree with Firriann, the change ( not Nerf ) to dots did not result in me changing the way I tank at all. My agro line up while tanking has always been slow/incap and I have never noticed a problem in obtaining/holding agro in any group.

Also, in reference to Keonos' post, the recast time on our cold nukes has NOT been changed, it is till 30 secs, same as it has always been.

Go back and read the forums on Sony boards. They decreased the recast time at least thats what they said. As for me it seems that they do refresh faster but that just could be me seeing things. Ether way .5 cast time and you have 2 of them up, at least you can get them 2 in before the mob is dead unlike dots.
I group with high end people most all the time.(Monks and Rogues--OMG THE DPS)  When i am grouped with them they generate allot of agro from the DPS and weapon procs they have.. Yes, i have Chaotic strike on my Crystal Hilted SHini but they have more DPS than i do and that gets the mob to ping pong allot.


All we are asking for is some sort of in-game option that will give us our agro back, or give the Beasts who don't want the agro a way to not have that agro. Is that to much to ask for? :?

Keonos (and anyone else who are up in arms over these changes), please look beyond yourself and look at the bigger picture before coming here to complain/whine.

Was it right for beastlords to have better agro generating than tank classes? Hell No

Was it right for shamans to not be able to cast any of their poison dots because of high agro? Hell No

Was it right that a poison dot that would do less dmg than a disease dot have more agro? Hell No

This is not a nerf, no matter how much you scream that it is. It is a fix, plain and simple. Yes, it has had the consequence of changing the way a few people play the class. If you dont like it, please feel free to quit playing. But this change isn't big enough to warrant that in my opinion.

As stated before, before anger augs and such, it was a group effort to maintain agro on the tank, not the sole responsibility of the tank to keep agro. That meant everyone had to do their best to stay off agro. I'm sorry that most have gotten lazy or just plain forgot this aspect from years of playing but maybe its for the best that people can't just button press anymore.

There are other ways of getting and maintaining agro, sure it might not be as simple as casting one spell like before but in the opinion of this beastlord, it should have never been that easy to begin with. Getting and maintaining agro should be what tanks are best at, not what a leather wearing dps/utility class is best at.

I don't need to read SoE boards.. I read the patch messages and check details on my spells on Lucy. Reduction in recast times was only ever on test server.

As for not being able to hold agro when you group... /shrug. As I said I have virtually no probs, and if the rogues/monks you group with are causing trouble from grabbing agro, wtf don't they evade?

As was said above tho, this seems to be an issue that no-one will agree on, all I can say is that it was on our top 10 for a long time before it went live, and that was the correct time to say if you would have a problem with it.

"Is that to much to ask for?"

The honest  answer is, probably.  Please bare with me on this as I know it's not something you want to hear.  First you have the issue that we can still generate solid aggro.  Not as efficently as chain casting tainted breath or as snappy as chimera blood, but still quite well overall.  Even before this change there were some beastlords that didn't use dots for aggro.  Take a look at some of the old threads on aggro generation and how some use drowsy/FoL/etc.  There are some beastlords that tank a lot that didn't use dots before and don't use dots now and simply saw no change to their aggro/tanking.  This wasn't a change that lowered all beastlord aggro generation across the board.  So we see that this change didn't totally remove an ability beastlords had and in some cases even the beastlords that were tanking saw no change at all. 

Next you have the issue of where should certain things fall.  The truth is beastlords aren't designed to be a tank.  We do it and some of us like doing it, but for the class overall this isn't something we are built to do.  I used to run juggs in seb with a necro as maintank and ran up over a hundred LDoN wins with a wizard as main tank.  I'm pretty sure no one would agrue that those classes are tanks.  See here we have the issue of what's designed and what actually happens.  There's no denying that beastlords can and did tank some content, but the issue is how good should they be at it.  I know that in the last few months zerker and monk aggro were brought up because there was risk of infringment upon the "tank" class. 

I know some people don't like this change and believe me it has been noted since before the changes even happend.  However, when you look at the overall change to the game, the other classes involved and even people within your own class you see just how this change fits into the big picture.  As just an honest answer I think it's pretty unlikely at this point that beastlords will see any direct boosts to their aggro generation.  We can still hold aggro quite well though and function as tanks.  It might be a bit harder/less efficent now, but overall things are more inline with how most feel they should be.

Quote from: Urim on May 03, 2005, 10:36:45 PM
Keonos (and anyone else who are up in arms over these changes), please look beyond yourself and look at the bigger picture before coming here to complain/whine.


Ok for 1thing i would not be here doing this if people like you had not whined and complaind and not learnd to use the class the way it was. So dont snap at me for not likeing what you whined for. You deal with the hand dealt to as i did not i have do it again, BAH why didnt you do it the first time.

So basicly your telling me that the class was screwed up from the day i was made but years gone by and  now  it needs to be fixed. Its been years now why all of a sudden dose it need to be fixed, just dosent seem right.
This is not a point of if a Beastlord was meant to be a tank or if they can tank, it is all about agro.
NO we are not a plate tanks,and we can not tank as well as them,well of course we dont have close to 3K AC.
We are there to back them up since we HAD HAD HAD the ability to grab agro fast, and no even if we do this we are not going to keep agro of a paly/sk/war that is trying to get agro unless you are realy tryng to do and youare wron for doing that. It is their job let them do it but be there and ready for if that tank dies and no more tanks to take his spot.......

Well that was my last post about this subject since i can see that this is not goin to change. So thanks to all who forced people like me into this, and have a nice day.

"So basicly your telling me that the class was screwed up from the day i was made but years gone by and  now  it needs to be fixed."

Yes, "DoT aggro" was fubar forever.  In fact it was even worse at one point because disease dots were huge aggro too, but those got fixed.  In fact dots overall have been straight up, fugged up wrong since kunark or so.  This isn't a new issue and I remember dealing with it and trying to get some fixes done long before beastlords were even in the game.  Notice how beastlord aggro wasn't touched?  This was literally a change to dots, to aggro on dots.  Not to our class, not to one aspect of what we do, but an overall game change to how a part of the game worked. 

"Its been years now why all of a sudden dose it need to be fixed, just dosent seem right. "

It's not right, it should have been fixed years ago.  As I said this is one of those cases where you have to look at what was intended verse what really was.  You are actually using a messed up gameplay issue to justify a messed up gameplay issue, do you see that?  I mean you are literally saying hey I had extra aggro on dots from day one so I should still have it now.  You aren't claiming beastlords should have better aggro, you aren't talking about a line of +aggro spells we had removed or nerfed, but you are literally talking about a game dynamic that many have said was wrong for years and finally got fixed across the board.

"Well that was my last post about this subject since i can see that this is not goin to change. So thanks to all who forced people like me into this, and have a nice day."

Somethings could happen and game dynamics can change.  Maybe they'll decide that debuffing isn't risky enough and needs more aggro(/cringe) and then slows would be even better.  Maybe they'll find that nuke aggro isn't where it should be and it'll get changed, etc.  I do understand you are upset and there's no denying that for you this change was a bad one that really didn't benefit you at all.  However, for the game as a whole this change makes sense and should have happend long ago.  Please don't think people were out to get you or anything like that.  Also the way you talk I think you should look at your aggro a bit and see what else you can do differently.  Beastlord aggro generation is still quite good overall and although it's not as crazy as it used to be you should still be able to hold aggro in a lot of cases with a problem. 

Yeah there was a mistake made that some/many enjoyed, its not coming back.
Chances of succesfully arguing any type of agro gaining ability for a non-tank class is virtually zero.
The agro we could generate was significantly less than paladins, the ultimate saviour tank, now we have to work harder and do less DPS.
Ok thats the way it is.

However I would just like to point out that a lot of our "solutions" lately have involved using more mana than before, and more often now I am getting into mana diffuculties unless a Shaman is around. This is reducing my DPS, having to cast more agro generators is also reducing my mana pool.
I am hoping the DPS envisioning which I hope will increase or DPS will also not rely totally on our mana pool

I think we have taken this as far as we can. Sony fixed something that was broken and the result is good for some other classes and in some ways good for beastlords I suppose, although, I am not sure how much good it is to us actually. In exp groups, I used my poison dots for agro only really. Sure, the dot added some dps, but most of the time the mob died before the dot ran its course. I rarely have seen the message "your chimera blood spell has worn off". I dont know for certain how the high end raid mobs resist our dots, but I do know alot of the mobs I see in latter stage oow resist them.  I have been using cold nukes now instead of dots and the reduced cast time on them offsets the increased casting of incap. I cast incap 2-3 times now during the course of a fight, whereas, in the past I could cast slow,  poison dot and NEVER lose agro. I never had to chain any spells to hold agro.  I know it was not right that our poison dots generated the agro that they did. I know in the traditional group I wont see any benefit to using my dots with a plate class tank present because I wont be using them, I will use my cold nukes where able, as they have been shown to be higher dps for less mana and less cast time.

In all, I can live with the change. I dont see holding agro as a huge issue really. I have to watch what the others in my group are doing more than I ever did but thats ok I suppose. And not being able to get snap agro on adds is something OTHERS in my group will have to deal with. I will miss being able to peel adds with a dot right as they enter camp and turn on a caster, but there is really nothing I can do now, except to position my mouse over that caster's hp bar in my group list and get ready to toss a heal his way.  Other players in the group will have to mez, root, or heal to save that group member.  I just dont get he quick, long distance "snap" agro from incap or slows as I did with my dots and the time element is crucial in peeling adds. Casting two or three spells while trying to peel an add usually means dead caster.

I was hoping that our increased heal would generate some real heal agro. But I went on a pick up hedge raid last night to help out some friends and found that isnt the case at all.

One concern I have though. I am terrified that class reinvisionment may bring some horrible changes to our class. We were never meant to be tanks. We wear leather armor. Will we see a reduction in our tanking abilitiies and be left having to say : "well we were never meant to be a tanking class"? Will we accept a reduction in our tanking abilities to the level that a leather class should be? Will we see an increase to our dps and a reduction to our tanking abilities? And if so, is that best for all of us? or just better for those who raid and horrible for those who solo or grind exp in casual groups? If so, that would be a career ending change for me. I enjoy tanking mobs and I am not as concerned about my dps as maybe I should be.  I like to be able to solo or tank in pick up groups where finding a plate tank is not possible right away. I like to offtank mobs to buy time for the group to kill the original mob in camp. I really think a  change in our tanking abilities and an increase to our dps is not outside the realm of possibilities, is it something we want? not me. But then again, "leather classes should not tank better than some chain classes" same as our poison dots were not meant to give a nontanking class snap agro (some chain classes, not all). Will we accept a fix in this regard as easily as we accepted a change to our dots? Maybe I am paranoid, but can any of you really say you know Sony will do the right thing by us? Do you think Sony really understands our class? We are fortunate to have Tastian to represent us as class correspondent, he is our best chance to come through the upcoming changes without further any further decrease to our abilities than the nerf by ommision that the last few expansions have wrought. /cheers Tastian

jitathab summed it up fairly well, it's just not coming back. This thread and the one on SOE's forum been pretty well beat to death, and there have been sereral alternatives offered, but some still insist posion dot agro is the only means available to get snap agro, and that's really not accurate. If you're already slowing, anyone that's yanking agro from you; if a plate tank was in your place, they'd also be yanking agro from them.

Reading some of the posts the the warriors forums, they complain a lot about thier inability to get and maintain agro, unless they have a rather uber 50-60k+ weapon, and some anger III augs... why should we be able to generate agro better. Our slows have plently of agro as it is. Zerk class has no real class ability to get agro, other than anger augs, and perhaps some raid target drops.

As Tastian pointed out, this is something not class specific thats been broke since day 1; and its certainly not the 1st thing thats ever been discovered that SOE has taken a long time to get around to correcting. Another classic example would be the freeze sceen from proc from iskar pet proc freezing screen; broke from day 1, and still broke me thinks, and probably never will be fixed. Does that make it right, no, just the way it is.

One thing that did occur to me, from a raid the other night. One of our tanks; forget if it was a warrior or pally, found out they were not going to be one of the tanks, for that particular raid,  and said... oh, "I'll switch weapons to my DSP ones, instead of thier anger III aug'd ones." Tanking is not about DPS, but about maintaining agro, and tanks realize they need to give up some DPS, in order to do this. Most likely many of us have older "no drop" weapons that are still decent DPS, or other weapons that are rarely if ever used rotting in the bank; you could get anger augs for them, that  way this doesn't interfere with your DPS ability when you are not tanking. Both DoN and Ldon have these types of aug's available.

Sunk, I dont think we need anger augs as I dont think we have lost the ability to get and hold agro. I just think we have to work harder to keep it. Anger augs might reduce the amount of casting we need to do to hold agro and address Jita's concern about the drain on our manapool, but Anger augs wont help the only unaddressable change from the poison dot agro reduction; the loss of proximity snap agro.  By snap agro, I dont mean getting  and holding instant agro on the mob you were tanking in camp. I mean getting agro on the add that wanders into camp and prepares to feast on an unsuspecting caster while you are focused on the primary target. For snap agro purposes, waiting for an anger aug to proc is not a solution to this problem. Absent a class with snap agro ability in the group, the whole group is going to have to work to keep its members alive when an add comes into camp. Incap works sometimes but is not reliable enough, nor is fol a solution when the mob is not near you due to the train that would occur when fol wears off. I have not been able to generate snap agro with my slow as yet. I have tried to peel adds with my slow, but if the mob has taken any damage from the pc I am trying peel it off of, I cant snap the mob's agro to me.

Actually, the LDoN anger augs are warrior only.  Other tanks used the Ykesha augs, however (DD + stun), and claim that those are equal if not better.  DoN also has chaotic strike augs (also DD + stun), so if aggro is your thing then those augs will help .  More importantly, DoN has two ALL/ALL enraging blow augs available (one from each camp), which are more hate than Anger III.

This is of course more of a sustained aggro issue than a snap aggro issue.

As for saving casters with DoTs, which ones were people using?  Those things have slow cast times and are extremely mana inefficient if all you're using them for is aggro (at least the higher level ones).  Plus, getting aggro on an add that happens to wander up on a caster is easy to do with slow or incapacitate.  DoTs only helped you to gank aggro from an add that a PC has damaged already, like a wizard who chained two big fire nukes in a row.  The point people are making is that PCs who don't want aggro have no business damaging adds in the first place.   In the situation you described, where everyone is minding their own business and a wanderer comes into camp and decides to aggro a dress wearer or healer, a beastlord who slows or incapacitates and melees the add will have aggro, period.

The only situation that has been altered is when you are trying to steal aggro from someone who has generated a lot of hate.  The question people are asking is why anyone thinks beastlords need that type of ability to steal aggro from someone else who should have it (by "should have it" I mean not only people who should have it because they are tanking, but also people who should have aggro because they are being stupid).

Rhoam , sorry, I just don't agree with any of that. Your snap agro should be coming from your slow; thats plenty enough snap agro. If casters are throwing out huge nukes in the 1st 10 seconds, they should just die, until they learn better. Several healers would say the same thing, and have about beastlords, casters yanking agro. I know I've been told that if I grab agro again, you're just going to die, till you learn better, and have seen wizards, etc told the same thing. There's several older posts on this board, and other class boards, concerning technichies people to use when they are grabbing agro from the main tank to often.

I also posted several links concerning pet taunt proximity agro. this should keep agro from any caster, that knows how to play in a group, from getting splatted. I've used this for a long time, even when not tanking, and its a very rare occasion that I've seen a caster yank agro, from the MT... our pets are basically warriors and have a decent taunt ability.a few times have had wizards toss one the thier 6k nukes way to early and they got exactly what they should have, and normally warned by the healer about agro management.

Bengali;  yup I stand correct, we can't use the ldon aug; however as you state the don aug's would be a good choice, and also now that there is the bandiero, there is really no issue quickly swapping between different weapons.... so this should be a way to help, "along with the many other suggestions people have made", for those people affected, at least for those who want a solution. Seen it stated several times, that upper end beastlords DPS is all about procs, with our Weapon Affinity, we proc a lot. Using slow for snap agro, pet taunt on, and a few procs from one of the DoN aug's should be plenty get and keep solid agro, at least as good as most plate classes; then a quick swapout to your DPS weapon(s).

Myself, I have never had a problem mainting agro. I use an assist marco, thats basically /assist, /pet attack; fairly simple marco. The one thing that I do is to hit the assist hotkey 3-4 seconds before mob arrives in camp. and in that way my pet has, if not gained agro, from proximity, taunt "our pets are capable of taunting from a distance", a round of attacks, and possibly a proc, at least is very high up on the hate list, at same time this is happening, I tossing the first slow, and it lands about 1/2 a second before the mob is within melee range. This works for me 100% of the time for snap agro when tanking, and many times when I'm not tanking but just preslowing or the only slower, until MT aquires agro.

Sunk: Again, I have no issue with maintaining agro. I dont think we are communicating here. I have issue with not having the type of snap agro for adds that come into a camp while the primary target is still alive. For whatever reason a slow from a distance is not peeling an add off my group members. I am not talking about maintaining agro after I have slowed and incapped a mob and meleed it. I am talking about peeling adds here and I dont see where your response addresses that. You are talking about maintianing agro, not peeling adds. I have not been able to get snap agro on adds with just a slow from a distance. I have needed to cast slow and incap to get aggro on adds from a distance where I am not meleeing them yet and given the urgency that is present when an add starts hitting a caster, casting two or more spells is not fast enough to get aggro off the caster. Maybe I am missing something in what you are saying or you are missing the issue of getting aggro on adds. /shrugs.

I am just stating what I have experienced. In the past week, I have tried slows and I have tried incaps on adds and my experience has been that I am not getting aggro off people who havent done any damage to a mob. I dont know why my experience would be any different than yours, and I am not saying Bengali is wrong as I defer to his knowledge over mine on all issues relating to our class. I am just saying that even where mobs are in range of my slow, I am not getting agro off casters who havent damaged an add without dragging my primary target over to the add and engaging in melee on the add. The problem here is that the primary target doesnt follow me sometimes and people who were acting as dps are becoming offtanks on the primary mob while I melee the add. As for pet taunt, well I suppose I could disc my pet and clear his attack with /pet back off to get him and his taunt on the add but that is just incredibly cumbersome.

For adds that wander into camp I don't try to "peel" them off the skirt wearers from a distance. I run over and start smacking their butts then cast slow after hitting them a few times. This works quite well for grabbing agro. If you still have an issue just redirect your pet onto the add also. Takes seconds and they can lift their skirts and run off safely. Will the PC take some damage? Yes, but that's what a healer is for. BTW, I can do this then stop to heal them myself without losing agro if the main healer is a bit busy.

/agree Grbage !

Rhoam; yes I was not reading you incorrectly. from the original posting on this and on SOE boards, at least from what I can read, most people have been talking about just aquiring agro from the main mob pulled into camp. Now that we're talking about adds, this is normally called CC. From what I've experienced, when there is no rooter, and/or mez'er in your group, even if you have a real plate class tank, can lead to rather dicey situations, unless as Grbage stated you and/or your pet go over and start smacking that add.

PS: highly prefer Sun to Sunk; name was computer generated on charachter creation, but Sun happens to my wifes maiden name, and Kash for $$.. also just happens to be my 2 favorite things, in that order; It was a name I just coun't pass up!

To clarify my point above (I hope anyway) , not all casters who get aggro are being stupid. Lets assume Im tanking mob1 and have aggro controlled on it. It gets me to 50% hps and the druid/cleric, not knowing an add is near, casts a 4-5k heal on me just as the add comes into aggro range. The add, mob2 now has a good bit of animosity on the druid/cleric for the heal he/she just cast on me and starts beating on the druid/cleric. In the past, one and I mean one cast of chimera was enough for me to get aggro on mob2. Chimera was always more aggro than slow and incap in my experience.

I am having trouble peeling an add off of a healer type in this situation with any degree of expediency. I have gone in to melee on mob2 and it does work but it creates a problem if mob1 doesnt follow me. If that happens, then most likely, the druid/cleric is low on hps, I am low on hps and the offtank who was less of a tank than I am is low on hps at the same time. It get s dicey. Chimera's aggro was truely unbelievable ( too good it seems). It was just short of paly or sk snap agro. With chimera, I could stay on mob1, dot mob2 from a distance and have it run to me, or, I could dot mob2 and have mob1 follw me to mob2 because of the additional aggro initiated by dotting mob1 at the begining of that fight. My point is, we dont have that now, even if we were never intended to have it.  I am simply saying we dont have that tool anymore and it does change my playstyle (in groups where I am tanking only, which is about 90% of the time I play, not while I solo or I am raiding) .

Quote from: Tastian on May 04, 2005, 06:37:21 AM
Yes, "DoT aggro" was fubar forever.

Thats your opinion - not mine.  DoTs were high agro because there had to be some consequence to using them.  If there were no consequence (like now) then shaman, druids, and necros (since this was built into EQ way before Beastlords) could deal damage with impunity.  High agro was intended to balance the power of the spells.

The great thing about the beastlord class is we can fill many roles.  DPS may be a primary role for the class.  Providing slows and 2nd tier buffs may also be a primary role of the class.  If you step back and listen - what many of us are saying is for our groups and in some cases guilds Beastlord as offtank was a primary role due specifically to our once high agro ability.  You can argue semantics with us all night long about which spells or combinations of spells are just as effective as DoTs used to be.  You can argue all night long that Beasts were never intended to tank.  However neither of these things are the point.  The point is we feel that Beastlods have lost a tool and many of us want something to replace it.  If you would listen to that and not argue semantics then you would easily see that IF we ask for for it and by some miracle get such a tool then ALL beastlords benefit.

What your imposing on all beastlords is your vision of the class.  You are supposed to be our advocate.  Someone who listens to the concerns of your peers and passes along information to devs.  I hate the change however, its done and im not asking that it be reversed.  If many of you beleive its beneficial thats great and Tastian should pass along to the devs that many beastlords are pleased our requests were heeded.  However, he also should pass along that many of us feel we have lost a good deal of our utility due to the change - especially in the area of snap agro.  Its not Tastian's job to tell us how to play this class - or define what roles this class is intended to fill.  Its his job to listen to the community and pass ideas up to the devs.  Our class advocate needs to recognize that many beastlords strongly disagree with him - not one or two deviants.  Again, Tastain is our class advocate and its his responsibility to support both camps here.  He once went to bat for the agro reduction segment of the Beastlord community now its time to evaluate how the change EFFECTED beastlords and go back to Sony and say "Guys the reduction of poison dot agro was a very positive thing however, im hearing from my peers that it has adversely effected their ability to offtank and save casters in some situations." 

Thats all were asking for here.  We dont want the agro added back to the DoTs.

Tastian didn't say he wouldn't pass on your feedback expressing a desire for an aggro ability.  In fact, if you read his posts in their entirety you can see that he already has passed on the feedback.  Someone just asked if we were asking too much, and Tastian gave his opinion that the devs would not likely give us such an ability.  I agree with that assessment (it really isn't likely that we'll get anything like that) but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't press for it or that your advocate is ignoring you. 

But based on his conversations with the devs, the dev reaction to similar circumstances (the monks were saying the exact same thing that you guys are when Dragon Fang got its aggro reduced, and were told flat out that the devs didn't think that monks were supposed to have a snap aggro ability, even if many of them used it as such) and an honest assessment of our overall class abilities, Tastian offered his opinion on whether you guys would be satisfied with the answer that he gets regarding an aggro ability (assuming he ever gets one, they don't always answer, as you know).  That's all it was -- a prediction as to whether we will get a snap aggro ability, not a refusal to pass along the idea because of his personal views.

To answers Bengalis question earlier - was using Chimera for getting fast agro.

hmmm.....Well, thanks Tast for clearing up a few things.

I actually had to take a deep breath and back away from this topic as its got alot of us, me especially, in arms against many of us.
We dont know what SOE has in store for us, we must remember that. Perhaps they dont want us to be "tanking", perhaps many of our spells they dont want us to use for "snap aggro". I just dont know.
Tast has been trying to help and be the voice in between when we are left in the dark. Along with his and many others help we have moved quite a ways of where we once were.
There is gonna be alot of discontent, but you do have to remember, if SOE doesnt see us in these particular roles then we must be asking what it is they want us in.?.
I was PM'ing Tast quite regularly in the beginning of all this. Deciding if I wanted to come back. Many of the changes they have made though, made me feel like enjoying the game all over again. Now that I'm actively looking for a semi good raiding guild I can only hope for the best.
But instead of bitching and arguing bout snap aggro and aggro reduction, we do seriously need to find out what it is our niche is.
Maybe they (SOE) see us as the mini shaman's we were suppose to be, who knows. But I will say this, no matter what happens or what someone might consider a "nerf" or "fix". I will still enjoy the class that I retired my ranger too.

Lol, based on the lore for why beastlords are not in EQ2, I would say Sony doesnt see a role for us. I mean our class was purposefully excluded from EQ2 and we are told beastlords lost their purpose in society and were outcast. Well there ya have it. (kidding, but still very concerned) I am extremely worried about what the reinvisionment will bring for us. I do not think Sony has a clear definition of what we bring to groups. I mean, we are lower end DPS with some utility. Our buffs are meaningless in all but some regular exp grps, where bazaar geared toons are present as our buffs are meaningless to anyone with better than bazaar gear.  Our slows are mitigated now mostly, making higher dps have a premium, but we dont have high dps, we have fallen behind warriors and knights for crying out loud and our one true defining class utility, paragon is antiquated and the upgrade was nerfed, not increased after it was first introduced in an expansion. Our omens spell line is crap, I mean real crap. What is it that we do bring to raids or high end exp groups? The way I see it, we are second class citizens right now. We arent the best choice for any need that a group has and our ability to do it all with less efficiency has been nerfed by ommision and content changes. We need some increase in either our utility or dps.  But, the problem is, there are some classes that have been crying alot louder and alot longer than we have for upgrades and I think we have fallen into the cracks so to speak.

"Thats your opinion - not mine.  DoTs were high agro because there had to be some consequence to using them.  If there were no consequence (like now) then shaman, druids, and necros (since this was built into EQ way before Beastlords) could deal damage with impunity.  High agro was intended to balance the power of the spells."

No that's fact.  The change now even proves it.  There is/was no reason for a spell that deals 1k damage max in 1 minute to generate over 4X the aggro of a spell that instantly deals 4k+ damage.  How can you even claim that high aggro was intended to balance the power of these spells when that same aggro isn't attached to spells that are many times more powerful?  Do you honestly think that tainted breath was balanced around having extra aggro so that I could go one shot of it for one shot of sunstrike and keep aggro?  Clearly we need level 9 dots that deal less than a hundred damage balanced to be on par aggro wise with a spell crit'n over 2k.  /boggle

"The point is we feel that Beastlods have lost a tool and many of us want something to replace it.  If you would listen to that and not argue semantics then you would easily see that IF we ask for for it and by some miracle get such a tool then ALL beastlords benefit."

I never denied beastlords lost something.  I have come right out and said that some areas of aggro generation have suffered, both efficency and aggro per second.  It is not arguing semantics though to explain why something happend and how it fits into the game.  If beastlords got a CH it'd help the class and utility, but it's not going to happen.  Tanking is something beastlords did and some beastlords saw *ZERO* change in tanking with this change, that tells you something.  Beastlords can still tank a lot of cases and although it's not as easy/brainless it can still be done.  I have never denied some would lose out on this change, but at the sametime I can't deny that this change is long overdue and how it should have been for a very long time.  Like I said to someone above, you are justifying a want for something with what was missing.  Imagine if back in velious they had fixed this and by luclin when beastlords were introduced dots were as they are now.  Would any beastlord have been asking or had any claim with which to ask for such a thing?  Would a leather wearing class that takes more damage than everything except for casters have been asking for extra tanking spells and what would have been their justification? 

"What your imposing on all beastlords is your vision of the class."

/cranky on

In light of this last comment I'm going to push extra hard for pet naming so you can call your's "clue" and actually have one.  I'm insulted and this is bullschit.  I tanked more than any other beastlord I've ever known.  I MT'd hundreds of LDoNs,  I MT'd EPs for exp, MT'd back in VT, MT'd groups through GoD trials, I OT'd all through time and even MT'd some trials at times.  Do you think I didn't lose something on this?  Do you think I didn't have to remove tainted breath from my default spell set?  Do you even have a clue how this effected me?  Do you even care or are you still too damn caught up in yourself?  The change hurt me and how I play my beastlord too.  That doesn't change how things are though, it doesn't change why it happend and it doesn't change how I do my job.  Do you really think I'm so fugging selfish that I'd try to force changes that would help the play of my beastlord with no regard to other beastlords and other classes in this game?  God what an insult.  If I had the kind of power you seem to think I do then half of our omens spells would be different than they are lol. 

I passed along the information that was there and continue to do so.  The truth is that beastlord +aggro could wind up on the top 10 if enough wanted it, but that isn't even close to happening atm.  I got hundreds of e-mails/pms/messages/etc in favor of lowering dot aggro and the issues there in, not to mention other classes and the fact that yes it was a game mechanic fug up.  Since mention of this change, since this change and all through this thread I think I've barely hit "dozens" of people that wish it hadn't happend. 

I really am sorry that this change negatively impacted anyone just like I am anytime any change negatively impacts anyone.  I know some people that still want the insane aggro on slows back(if you didn't play right after the disease counter change you missed out lol), some still want pets to take a buff and be able to CH by re-buffing, some want fero to take a regant, yes some beastlords have actually said they want the regant back lol.  Not everyone is going to be happy with everyone change.  In fact, atleast someone will be upset with every single change.  I've had to accept that and I try my best to fairly and equally reprsent any/all opinions that people offer up, but I refuse to accept people that are so caught up in themselves that they refuse to see the big picture, won't listen to what they are being told and come right out and falsely accuse me of things I did the exact opposite of. 

I know you and some others want more aggro and I've made it known.  I've also seen two other classes (monks and zerkers) have similiar talks about aggro generation and that didn't go so well.  I'm doing my job by passing along the information I have both from you and to you.

Btw, I just re-read this entire thread (yeah I'm just that touched in the head), and unless I'm missing something there are only about 5 people in this entire 5 page thread that are saying they don't like the change/want more aggro/etc.  5 pages and about 5 people.  One of which started the thread lol.  There are more posts in this thread about people that are happy with the change than those that are unhappy with it.  I really think you need to step back and look at the big picture.  I know it can be hard when a change happens that hurts you or your character.  Especially if it's a change that has been a part of your character for awhile.  Please don't take it out on me and others though.  Make a case, show some data, provide some facts and get some support.  It will be passed along and it will be noted.  Sony still has say on what happens though and as I've said it really isn't likely we'll see more aggro intentionally added.  What you can do though is adapt like many in this thread have said.  I think the dps/aggro weapon issue is one a lot of people miss.  I still carry around an SoD w/yak aug that i used a lot to help with tanking.  There are a few good threads about spells/aggro on these boards. 

Finally, if you want to build support for your case show where beastlord aggro is currently and why it should be higher.  You can't just say dots do less aggro, you need to show that there is a justifiable need for beastlords to generate higher aggro than they currently can.  You need to show that slow+incap+weapons/augs/etc simply isn't sufficent to allow beastlords to perform to an acceptable level in terms of aggro generation/tanking. 

Hey Tast, I got some extra Flexaril if ya need any  :-D



Oops, forgot to mention though, what you said is the point I was looking for.

Well said Tastian... /applaud

Tastian is right on here. /memblur Tastian :)

If you go back and look at almost all of the changes that have come along in that last year or so, what you'll find is that almost all were changes that were not just specific to beastlords but were being asked for by all the other classes that were affected... classic examples
would be pet zoning and pets not poofing when you invis. If other pet classes were not also asking for these, or came out and said that it didn't need changing, it simply would not have been done. SOE just like any company out there, goes for things that give the bigest bang fo the buck, and helps the most people 1st, and work down from there. Same thing here, the other classes that had poison dots were also complaining about it, now its been changed. Tastian, as well as most other people here have been attempting to give some alternatives, not dictate how you must play your toon, now that the change is in place, and not likely to go back, as its was never changed just because Tastian "or us beastlords" only asked for it. Another example would be our new heals, wasn't just us that got improved heals, but also rangers, etc.

I've talked to many people in my guild, my original guild that's pretty much faded from existance, and other ingame friends, on beastlord offtanking ability, not just lately but off and on for 16 months or so, as that's when I started playing this game, and trying to get some insight not just from this board, but from other players, and other classes, what they do, and what they expect us beastlords to do in groups and raids. To date I've been told that CC is exclusively the job of classes that can root or mez, failing that a class that can kite providing there is room, etc, and beastlords aren't in those categories, so don't offtank. I've yet to have a single person say yes beastlords should be offtanking adds.

Right about the time God was going throught  test, we had at least on test, a new ability to root, and from what I recall, was shot down, by the beastlord comunity... no we don't want that we want more DPS... it was dropped, and we got nothing in return. could be that SOE realized we could use more utility, and were not to the point they thought we needed more DPS, so it was dropped and we got Notta, Zilch, nothing in its place. In hindsight, maybe it would have been better to not look a gift horse in the mouth, then at least for the people who really want to offtank they could still contol adds. If we really want this ability, it should be asked for as a seperate issue, along the lines of utility, could be a taunt, or even just say we're having 2nd thoughts on that root we passed up some time ago, and now we want it. Could it be that someone @ SOE actually saw this issue coming way ahead of time, and put a fix in up front??? Nah! very doubtful.

/rant on
When I 1st started playing 16 months or so ago, the general comments from the beastlord community, and saw it stated many times, that SOE had beastlords, just about exactly where they wanted us to be.. sure there's a few tweeks on the highend that needs done, etc... Having worked with programmers, program managers, and company management more decades than I care to disclose; this said one thing to them.. ok. Great job team!! this problems fixed, lets move on to the next problem "or the next squeeky wheel". Unfortunately that's about what happened we are still as a class exactly where they left us back then, with little or no improvement, in any category there is. melee, DPS, new spells, utiltiy, etc... Now that as a class we are in every category way behind the curve, maybe its time to start putting some real pressure on SOE to get some our class specific issues fixed.. most of our class specific issues status are the same they have been for months. I'm sure Tastian is talking with them about them, just they so far are not listening.
/rant off

Maybe they arent listening because we are still playing the class. The beastlord class is a very popular class to play and the problems we are talking about affect a very small percentage of beastlords, ie....late stage GoD and on. They didnt address mage issues or pally or sk or warrior issues until people stopped playing those classes in droves. The changes required in those classes also stemmed from level 20 plus and onward. Our issues seem to arise at the Plane of Time plus stage of our progression. As has been stated many times, we are fine up until that point.  Because our issues only affect a small percentage of the beastlord community, we may not see an immediate response from Sony until highend beastlords are gone in droves. We have seen some leave, sadly, but the majority of high end beasts are sticking it out, hoping for a fix that is most likely far off on the horizon. (Unless the reinvisionment addresses these issues, which so far scares me more than encourages me)

As for questioning Tastian's representation of us as a class, that is purely ridiculous. We are very lucky to have Tastian and if you dont see that then you just havent read enough of the posts on this board. /cheers Tastian

I've read posts by a number of class reps, I've looked at over half the main class websites.  Tastian is the best class rep there is by a country mile.

You can complain all you like about the SMALL negative impact this change had on one aspect of our class, and you can argue that it's impossible for you to pull adds off casters now till you're blue in the face for all I care (which is BS, I do it regularly and it's slightly more difficult at worst), but when you attack Tastian your opinion devalues completely in my eyes and I suspect in the eyes of many others.

He got lots of feedback, the majority in favour of the change, he passed it on.  The evidence of that is here on these boards.  Complaining about it after the fact and suggesting he's not doing his job as a class rep is frankly pathetic.

Khayden

Wow it looks like I missed a good one here. Oh well it is a topic close to my own heart so I have to add my 2 cp.

For a while now DPS has been the forefront of Beastlord concerns. One thing that was brought up was that the majority of BL did not even mem a whole line of spells (poison dots) because they did not do enough damage for the aggro they generated. So as a part of our class fix we put up there to "fix" our DoTs. I was a very big fan of this and crossed my fingers and cheered Tast on to fight the good fight for us. Behold our savior has come through!! I can now cast DoTs with almost no fear, YAY!!!

Well now like some Beasts out there who put themselves up LFG as a viable tank for 90% of the content in the game. I found myself struggling in places and in certain groups trying to hold aggro. Some have said that the new change has had zero effect on their tanking in groups. I am not gonna call anyone a liar but personally I have found it extremely hard to to get aggro back after loosing it when playing in a high end group when the wizzies are nuking for 4K+ and healers are healing for 6K+ and other classes are cranking 400+ DPS and procing crazy numbers. Then some groups I have to contend with overlapping roles (chanters and shammies) that overwrite most of my aggro. Over all I would have to say I can still hang.

I like the way Tast put it when he said it is no longer "brainless".  I am stil tanking for groups but no longer look forward to it. I enjoyed tanking because I felt tough when I did it in the past.  I have had the feeling some time that maybe something was wrong about it, because it was too easy.  In the end I feel that is our lot though. We shoiuld not be a primary option to be MT for any group anywhere. For over 3 years I have been using my dots as a "crutch" to put myself into a role that maybe I wasn't intended. I can't help it but to feel this "fix" was a curse in disguise but like others have said I will either begrudgingly adapt or retire bitterly. I don't wanna retire so that just leaves me begrudged : )

I have said it in another thread that we need to be conscious of our place in the game and it takes alot of maturity to have powerful tools and understand when some are taken away to try to see what the effects are to the whole game. (If it is a good thing)

As far as our ability to MT or OT effectively IMO with the power of the priest classes atm, it is not hard to keep a heavily AA'd 11k beast up in almost any content the game has to offer much less the 13K monsters that are becoming more and more common. I think it needed to be fixed for that reason alone, but even more so for classes that have almost no DPS ability beyond stacking DoTs.

As pure game mechanics are concerned it was really baffling to see a beast grab aggro in group from a rogue and wizzy who both doing 400+ DPS each on cruise control by doing nothing more than casting SV a few seconds too early. There is just too much that does not make sense about our Dots the way they were to justify a change back to the way they were.

I guess what I have to do now is get a "tanking" set of weapons with multiple anger and enrage effects on them like I have my "solo" weapons with lifetaps on 'em. Neither will be my primary DPS weapons but with the new bandolier function it has got me shopping the bazaar again : )

In my opinion this change should be good. We will be able to cast a DoT and not gank aggro immediately.

I tank a lot. I love it.
Honestly, I have never used a dot for aggro. My guild uses our chanters a lot, and they are an awesome team. Non damage aggro is golden. It was taught to us awhile ago, and ever since i have never used dots for aggro. 65% slow, incap, 30% slow...all that is needed...chain the 30% slow if needed. I never have issues. Our nukes are awesome for aggro as well. I have 2 nukes up, the lvl 69 one and 63. Damn gates nuke still evades me... With .5 casting time they are nice for fast hiting and nice aggro. I do have 2 chaotic strike augs in my epic 1.5 which is in my mainhand atm.  Every now and then you might get ganked for a second, but just let one spell land and then its yours then on. 99.9% of the time i have no issues.

Nice post Tast. As always keep up the good work. Glad you are behind us.

Quote
After reading your response to Jita's post Jkal, it seems you agree that snap agro needs to be replaced some other way now that the dot snap  agro is gone, so maybe you would agree that our dot agro was the be all and end all for snap agro afterall? 

Actually in fact, I never used my dots for snap aggro. I used slow/incap and maybe FOL. Sorry took so long to respond, just spent about an hour or so rereading most of this.
But, I have to agree with Tast. If they fixed this around the same time they did the disease DoT's what would you use or would you continue to Tank/play your beastlord the way you do now?? Just a thought.

I tanked a lot during my 70 levels and 800ish AA's, now i will tank less (When someone is begging me for it) and probably stop trying to offtank also. Why? The fun I had, in the role i took in groups dissapeared.

Some people loves to have to cast numerous spells and push many buttons to aquire aggro needed for tanking, I dont.
I loved tanking with the "bugged" Chimera Blood as it was easy. After "fix" my snapaggro is gone. Stinks to see cleric go down to an add after he landed that CH, and you are still on the slowing phase on your spell combo of 5 spells to try to get aggro from him. Struggling is not fun imo, so I will just let the intended plate tanks and un-nerfed ranjahs do the tanking/offtanking =)

Wont stop playing Bst until at least I get to see what Sony decided our role is tho, so from now on i guess i will be pure "ghetto" DPS for groups. Wont accept tanking RSS or MPG which used to be fun, will probably log on alt ranger to play after raids are done.

Just wanted to post my opinion so Tastian knows there are 6 Bsts in Bst-community that didn't like the "fix", and not 5.

6 ppl didnt like it, i'm not even sure it's worth passing on to devs.

It's patch day and in a bad mood atm, will try to hang in there. I dont post much but love reading others point of view.

/Jili

Personally I rarely used DoTs for snap aggro.  Sure, it's nice to be able to cast a spell and have a mob forget everyone else and run 20 yards away to come bash you, but /shrugs.  I don't find I really have problems peeling, as others have said you need to pay closer attention to proximity, and be alert so you can aggro adds or whatever before the cleric locks them down and gets whacked.

The only time I find it difficult is when mezzing is going on if I don't have the initial aggro, in which case you obviously wouldn't be using DoTs to peel anyway...
As someone else mentioned, if you're that gungho about tanking, maybe you should look into hate procs.

Overall, I find it's nice being able to cast a dot on incoming and actually get some damage out of it.  I do not like how most things resist our DoTs, though, and a resist mod would be real nice but who knows.

One point I'd make is I think people underestimate the aggro value of proximity and meleeing.   When I want to get an add off casters I've always found it more effect to run over, hit autoattack and slam and then start casting.

I managed to pull one of the three named in the coirnav event out of the AEing raid to the root park zone with incap so it can be done, but for trash I'd always run over first.

Khayden

 :-P

During raids this has been most noticeable, particularly since tis beastlords who used to die but now it is getting rarer and rarer.  Before the change beastlords, when compared to rangers, would die on an average of 10:1.  Then the guild absorbed a few other guilds post-EQ2/WoW where they would make ranger jokes.  They were told they were quite misinformed :), and the new beastlords learned it first hand (chuckles).  The jokes that grew from that came when rangers died.  Someone would spout off, "silly dead rangerxxx, are you a beastlord-in-training?".

We are just now at the point of the game where our melee DPS generally exceeds our archery DPS.   But with the recent changes, beastlord deaths have dropped.  But we still hold to tradition though, that the raid isnt officially a raid until one of our officers, a beastlord, has died.  :-D