Beastlord DoT Agro Reduction

[Zannar]

I don't know how often many of you read or post on the official forums so I decided to post here.

There has been some discussion there about the reduction in agro from poison DoTs.  Many beastlords see the change as a huge nerf.  Without writing a book (you can go to the official forums to read all the comments) there are 2 aspects to this issue:

1)  Maintaining agro when tanking is much more difficult now and very mana intensive.
2)  Our ability to get snap agro is non-existant now and we can no longer fill the savior role.

I obviously am one of the beastlords that hate this change and I feel very strongly that we need to discuss ways we can regain our lost abilitys.  Every day I play post patch I notice things happening in groups that I never had problems with before.  I basically have very little control of situations anymore.  I can't take agro at will so I can no longer play the savior role.  I am constantly low mana from chain casthing spells to maintain agro when im tanking.  My groups have been chaotic the last couple days because I dont have 100% lock on agro as I would have pre-patch.  The mob will turn and smack the rogue or run to smack the wizard or cleric - things that never happened before.  Maybe many of you wanted the DoTs changed but with every passing day I get more disgruntled with playing my 'new' class.  It really irks me that I am being forced to completely change my play style after 3 years.

The only suggestion I have is add an AA with 3 ranks that will add agro back to our DoTs.  When we have the AA at max level we are playing the same class the same way we always did before.  Now that I think about it a DoT agro reduction AA would have been the absolute best way to address this issue from the beginning.  I dont think I am being unreasonable asking that I have the option to return my Beastlord to the same class I played before.  The class im playing now isnt the class I learned to love over 3 years.  Give me back my DoT agro please.

[Zanois]

I always used tainted breath to keep agro, toss it in with a slow or 2 and voila, pretty decent agro on any exp grind mob...

What ive done is switch tainted breath to Incapacitate, toss in a slow or 2 and still have pretty decent agro, this works well, I partner with a 70 rogue (epic 2.0) and I don't lose agro too often, if I do she evades or I toss on another incapacitate.

[Zannar]

The reason you never had problems is Tainted Breath is a poison DoT and was at one time very high agro.

I too play using the exact same methods you do.  I always used Incap in the past and still do.  What im saying is even with Incap agro isnt nearly as locked in as before.  You must chain cast now which ultimately lowers your overall DPS and leads to mana problems. 

[Urim]

Truely feel sorry that you feel the class has suddenly changed for the worse. However, i am of the opinion that this is a good change overall. Before this change i never loaded dots up because of the agro and the fact that 90% of the time they are resisted and yet i was still able to maintain agro when forced to tank. (Tanking isn't my favorite thing to do but i happen to think i can do it fairly well) Incapacitate and a couple casts of slow is what i have always used and still use when holding agro for tanking or grabbing agro from a cleric (Honestly saving an overcasting wizard/magician isn't something i look to do, they need to learn agro maintenance somehow). I've never been forced to chain cast these even when grouping with rogues/monks/wizards all in same group.

If people in your group are experiencing problems with getting agro it falls on them to change what they are doing. Rogues should honestly never be getting agro except for the occasional hit after a failed evade and monks the same except for failed FD. If your cleric is getting agro he should slow up on heals, use some HoTs and if he is being forced to chain big heals than maybe you should think about getting a 'real' tank class or moving to a slightly easier location. An Incapacitate + 2-3 slows each one only costing 150 mana each (with no mana pres) so ends up being close to if not less than using dots.

Since this change the DoTs have started making an appearance on my lineup. I am now more willing to try casting and landing a slow knowing that the mob won't turn on me immediately.

[Hereki]

I am exactly the same situation as Urim.  I never used dots at all before, didn't need them for aggro, and couldn't use them on raids or when not tanking because of aggro.  I only need slow and incap to get aggro if I want it.

Beastlords were never intended to be a tanking class, that was a role that we found ourselves in because of AAs.  If that means that knights and warriors now have better aggro control than we do, then that's a good thing for the game as a whole.

I think that the gains in being able to do dps beat by far any losses in tanking.  Now we just need to be able to do even more dps.

[Zannar]

I find it humorous that beastlords that do not choose the tanking or savior role as their primary play style are telling me that there are other methods I can use that are just as efficient as using the DoTs pre patch - its simply not true.  I am a beastlord that tanks for 90% of his XP groups I seek the tanking role because im comfortable with it and enjoy doing it.  I group with people that expect me to tank and have grouped with me enough to know that I can do it well.  A parse of my last 3 months of play shows the following:

Fights: 11000
Offensive Damage: 118,505,179 Total 35,806,890 from Pet
Damage Taken: 50,342,627

As you can see I stand in front of the mob quite a bit.  I know beastlord tanking and im saying that were no where near as efficient at maintaining agro as we were pre patch.  I will also state that our ability to get snap (or instanteous) agro is almost completely gone now.  If you are filling the off tank role in your group and its your job to clear casters of agro then post patch your ability to do so is severely limited.

I didn't ask that things be put back the way they were what I asked for was simply that we recognize there are many beastlords that hate this change and want a means to regain the snap agro that we lost.  I suggested a new AA that would return DoT agro to pre-change levels for those beastlords that CHOOSE to buy the AA.  If you prefer keeping DoTs as they are now then dont buy the AA - its simple.

[Kroe]

The thing is, you can't look at this change with tunnel vision.  Sure, you may have to cast more/different spells to get the equivalent agro generation that our poison dots did, but we weren't the only class affected - necro's, shaman, chanters (PR counters on tash) were also affected and overall the change to counter agro generation is for the better, in my opinion anyway.

For me, this change has helped (I recently started botting my shaman after moving him to his own account) as he can actually contribute more whilst using his poison dots.

[jitathab]

In XP groups our DoT's adds little to overall DPS due to long duration of the damage and having to cast something else, therefore dots primary role was for agro generation to allow offtanking. A single lower level nuke adds the same DPS as a DoT. Combined with our short term def disc we could offtank for short periods, saving group members from adds.

Now the agro generation takes longer, so I go back to my original argument from months back.

Sure reduce the agro on dots (which has been done) but give us a new agro spell. The new spell doing nothing but generate agro.

Anyways going back to history again, how come it took the actual change to be put in place before people started saying its wrong or would cause problems? Where was everyone to back up the couple people that didnt like the change when the proposal was first made so that the majority decision got carried.

[Khayden]

The main change I've noticed isn't the loss of snap aggro, it's the loss of ranged snap aggro.

Previously I could cast Chimera on a mob that was beating on a caster and it would run to me pretty much regardless of what they'd done to it.  Now I have to run over there, and aggro snaps straight on to me with incap slow or chimera.

I tank a fair bit, offtank alot on raids.  It's more work than it used to be but chimera is 30-40 dps depending on focus and the freedom to use it whenever is a nice bonus I feel.

Now if only our disease dots were worth loading :)

Khayden

[Jkal_Shihar]

I always get a laugh reading these. I agree with Hereki and Urim though. We were never meant to tank. Also, you have to remember there was a couple other classes that used poison dots. I would load one in and just stare at it cause of the major aggro. Now I can feel comfortable enough to cast to kill a mob faster. Thats what there for, not aggro inducers to help kill mobs faster so you can work on next one.

If I want aggro, I resort to the old ways which was slow-incap-fol. That is still the best way to get aggro and also pet control. If the caster was brave enough to steal aggro he/she should be brave enough to take a few beatings.

Sorry, just the way I feel bout this whole aggro issue non sense. I look at it if you want to tank make a tank. I want to serve utility and DPS overall not a tank role.

Yes we can off tank, but we shouldnt have to keep doing it. Our job is to kill mob A as fast as possible so we can move on to mob B an so on.

My wife who plays a cleric knows her role very well in a group/raid. She knows not to over heal and if she does its her fault. She will usually cast invulnerable and that gives me enough time to steal aggro with those 3 spells i mentioned before along with moving pet to the new target. Also, you can steal aggro by chain casting a heal on the person too. Something ive been experimenting with since they upped our heals.

So no, our aggro is just fine now. You just need to learn some new technics or read some of the classic posts about generating quick aggro without dots.

[Khayden]

Sorry, just the way I feel bout this whole aggro issue non sense. I look at it if you want to tank make a tank. I want to serve utility and DPS overall not a tank role.

Yes we can off tank, but we shouldnt have to keep doing it. Our job is to kill mob A as fast as possible so we can move on to mob B an so on.

Offtanking is a big part of our utility, and it's right to have concerns if it becomes much more difficult.  My experience so far has been that it is only a little more difficult which is fine with me.  Having slow and protective spirit makes us alot more capable of offtanking mobs in some situations than any other class.

Our job is much more than just DPS and a beastlord who plays every role offered by the class to the maximum possible can make a big difference to any group or raid.

Khayden

[Skratz]

If you are that worried and want to tank that bad.... GET AN ANGER AUG for your weapons.  Load lvl 50 slow if your concerned with mana. 45 mana and good aggro.  less then 2 sec cast.  toss on a few cheapies, and pummel away.

[Zannar]

Our job is much more than just DPS and a beastlord who plays every role offered by the class to the maximum possible can make a big difference to any group or raid.

Exactly.

Many of you claim that we were never intended to tank.  I reply that snare was never intended to allow kiting.  The bottom line is we can tank so many of us do.  We fill the off tank role very well so many groups and guilds relied on us to do so.  We have low AC but good evasion and a short term defensive skill that combined with our slow attack rate (fewer ripostes then any other melee class) results in us being a damn good tanking class.    We are a generalist class and can do many things well and there are many ways to play this class - none more correct then the other.  Some of us prefer the tank role to the pure dps role.  If you prefer the DPS role great have at it.

I, for one, feel that what we gave up when poison DoT agro was changed was far more valuable then the DPS we gained.  I argued against this change from the beginning because I knew it would negately impact my play style.

[Jkal_Shihar]

I, for one, feel that what we gave up when poison DoT agro was changed was far more valuable then the DPS we gained.  I argued against this change from the beginning because I knew it would negately impact my play style.

So, what bout that necro that wants to use his/her poison dot in a raid/group. Or the shaman that can finally load some his poison dots or better yet that poison DD he got but couldnt use due to the aggro. To me, that is selfish thinking if you dont also count in other classes that have the same type of spell and they would love to use em to at least account for some DPS.

The aggro issue has been brought up many many times and the majority feel it was for the better. We have two types of dots we use disease and poison. Why one generated more aggro then the other IMHO was a bad design flaw. I dont look at it as a nerf but reality check that was made right.

I hate tanking personnally, can I do it? yes in a pinch. But I dont want that to be the only thing groups rely on me for. Lately since shamans had the nerf on there one spell which I think was a major nerf, I've had more groups asking me to join to be there slower then a tank or dps.

If you like to tank, have at it. But some of us would like to be able to sit there dish out some damage and use those dots without a repurcussion to our other ability and that is DPS.

And snare can be use as a aggro magnet as well but most rangers I know use the lvl 9 one since it pisses the mob more then there higher version and casts much faster for chaining it.

Tast knew this was a touchy area but if he thought it wasnt for the better he would not have submitted it. Fact is, we have other spells that work just as well. Use those if you really want that aggro to stay and tell the rangers you group with not to snare then.

[Grbage]

I guess I play a different game then many. When tanking I can slow on incoming, drop a nuke, start meleeing and rarely lose agro. Yes the poison dot would absolutely lock in agro but mana use was to high while chain pulling so it was not used. If I lost agro, just toss out another slow and it was a done deal.

I love the new lower agro generation. Can now toss it on a mob without pulling agro from an SK who is trying to keep agro.