Beastlord DoT Agro Reduction

[Urim]

I find it humorous that beastlords that do not choose the tanking or savior role as their primary play style are telling me that there are other methods

No, i don't play that as my primary role but that doesn't mean that i don't play that role often. Before the change, i tanked in RSS for 2.5 horus while waiting for another tank to go LFG. The group consisted of 2 monks and a wizard (cleric and me obviously) and held agro pretty damn good (no dots btw). Since the patch i had to tank for a RSS group for 2 hours while waiting for a tank to go LFG. Guess what!? In a group of wizard, rogue and monk i STILL didn't have any problems holding agro over them. This is only 2 of the times ive been forced to tank, the actual number is far too large to even count and i have only rarely ever had trouble holding agro.

And when it comes to playing the savior role for casters, dots were too long of a cast time anyway. The best method i have found for saving casters has been to first run to the mob to start meleeing while casting slows and nukes (especially now that nuke cast times have been reduced). Range has a large part to do with agro so if your trying to steal agro while far away you wont get nearly as well of a result as when your standing on top of the mob. Plus as i said above, some casters you just have to let die or else they will never learn.

So whats the difference between you and me? You would rather come to boards and whine about wanting things changed back to being worse for everyone except maybe you and few others. When what you should be doing is thinking a couple minutes about EVERYONE else (like shamans and necros) and then figuring out it isn't any harder now than it ever was. All you need to do is think a little. Expand upon what you already know and utilize some of your other spells (spells which are far less mana intensive than dots).

[Zannar]

You would rather come to boards and whine about wanting things changed back to being worse for everyone except maybe you and few others.

When did I call to have things changed to how they were pre-patch for everyone?  Quote me saying that my friend and then call me a whiner.

What I said ecactly was:

I suggested a new AA that would return DoT agro to pre-change levels for those beastlords that CHOOSE to buy the AA.  If you prefer keeping DoTs as they are now then dont buy the AA - its simple.

How does that effect shamans and necros (many of whom also hate the change because it negatively impats their agro kiting with the level 70 rogue pet)?

I dont care how you play your beastlord.  I care how I play my beastlord and all im asking is I have the option to play the class the same way I did for 3 years.  I never suggested we shove a change down your throat like you so obviously are happy to shove down mine.  Now if you have something constructive to add to this discussion please do.

[Zanois]

adapt.............

As I posted earlier I used to use the dot for agro, change my spell line up to use incapacitate instead of the dot, and voila agro again.

I also tank a good 80% of my exp groups, I had to adapt to the change, wasn't hard, didn't kill me.

Its a good change over all, cause poison dots affect other classes other than just us, necros/ shamans...

If SoE were to implement an AA to improve agro on poison DoT's I would probably buy it, but only cause the aa I have left is trash.... otherwise wouldn't be high on my list if at all.

[Urim]

They already implemented an AA to reduce the agro generated by all spells. Spell Casting Subtelty. This AA was screamed for by wizards/shamans/necros/clerics ... hell just about everyone who can cast a spell. It sucks that we don't have access to this AA because then this change might not have been asked for so much. However, we don't and even if we did this change would have still been asked for by the shamans and necros and me. 
The likelihood of them adding a new AA that basically reverses that one AA is slim to none. Again im sorry you feel your class was changed but thats just a feeling, class wasn't changed at all. How you play might have to change but its not like its going to be a life altering change that will make you feel like a rogue or a enchanter. You are still a beastlord.

Yes, i am more than happy to shove a change down your throat because its the best thing for the game and for the vast majority. Adapt as my guildmate put it. It's not something thats hard to do. Open your eyes and look at other opportunities than the GREAT DOTS! Suggestions have been made on this thread which work just as good if not better. Asking SoE to make changes because your unwilling to change isn't the way to go about it.

[Valsuvious]

As a shaman main with beastlord twink, I can say without a doubt, that this change was very well received by myself.  In any type of environment, I just was not able to use my poison dots period, because of the agro associated with them.  One cast of one dot was enough to keep me getting summoned half the fight, no matter who the tank was.  Adding a second poison dot was nearly suicide, and that's not even counting the shaman who has dot crits.

As for it's effect on beastlords, well, you learn to adapt or you don't survive.  There are plenty of ways to gain agro.  On my shaman, if I need to quickly get agro to get somehting off of a another healer, I just chain cast slow and/or cripple, and that usually does the trick nicely.  It's the same with a beastlord.  Look at the bright side, you now get to use poison dots and not have to worry about unneeded agro when you aren't the main tank.

[Hereki]

Reading this thread has reinforced my opinion that this change was the right change to make.  Only a few beastlords had any objections when it was proposed, and it would seem that majority are still in favor of it.

One small point, though: necros don't really care.  If they get aggro, they FD, so it doesn't have a big impact for most.  A few take a similar position to the antis here, that the 70 (rogue) pet will get aggro if they send it in immediately when using only dots for aggro.  That's a similar position to the objectors here, but with the majority of necros not pro or anti the change.

[Jkal_Shihar]

Please, No more AA suggestions. We have too many as is. I did the exact same test you did though and my friends are pretty much either elemental or oow geared while i'm in ldon and bazaar. I still held aggro better then they did.
But we started going over the fights and it took me longer to get aggro due to the cast times on casting dots then it did just slow/incap/fol. Which is the way I use to gain aggro when I was forced to tank. But just like what Urim said, there are some casters you have to let die if there to ever understand about there aggro control.
Sorry but I am not gonna be a savior for some player that just goes nuke/tash or what ever happy and does not know how to control there aggro one bit.
The poison dot is more in line with the disease dot and thats how it should be for aggro. Some just learned to use that instead of the faster caster spells we have cause of the damage. I'm just surprised many bst would bother casting a dot at all if there tanking due to the cast time.
Plus most chanters I group with hate when we dot to begin with. Especially on adds, they would rather you send in the pet to keep its attention while they mez it again.
You have to learn how to play the old ways which if you find some posts most never used dots, even for snap aggro.
It was a good change and to keep bringing it up is just beating that dead horse. Adapt and rethink your stragedies and it will be like it never happened.

[Firriann]

maybe it's just me, maybe it's just cause of my weapons, but wth... when im tanking rss / mpg, i cast slow on inc, one incap, 2 if i want to be sure, then agro is on me for the whole fight. thats in a group with a mage chain nuking, a rogue not evading, a ranger not jolting (and he was nuking, i was only nuking once in a while, not a mana issue, 15 worn FT, clicky mana regen, SA, c6). incap is pretty fast cast at 70. around the same as CB. and slow is very fast cast too. snap agro is still in place, just replace your tools. when i tank, i use incap, tried TB, gave me LESS agro then incap and CB was too mana intensive to keep using it whenever i needed the snap. like it was said before, adapt... it's a part of the game, it's a part of life.

[Bengali]

Using DoTs as a way of getting snap aggro is kind of bass ackwards anyway.  Not to say that it didn't work before, but it was a roundabout way to make otherwise useless spells have a purpose.  If beastlords need a way to get snap aggro to offtank things then they should just give us an ability that does that.  It's like monks complaining about the change to Dragon Fang aggro.  That also was an ability that was supposed to be a dps boost but had unintentionally high aggro so monks were using it as a poor-man's taunt instead of a melee nuke like they were supposed to.  Buying an AA that adds aggro to your DoTs would be a shortsighted move for any beastlord who got it, since that would then permanently mean that your DoTs were high-aggro and you couldn't use them for plain old dps, ever.

Maybe beastlords (or monks, since I mentioned them) weren't meant to have snap aggro.  Maybe they were, I dunno.  But if the latter is true, then the solution is to add some snap aggro abilities, not to re-introduce a game mechanic that hampers the use of DoTs for those times when you *don't* want aggro (which can happen, even if you fancy yourself as an offtank).

[Katonis]

I personally very much like this change.   I have not used poisen dots much since way back in PoP when 90 percent of the tanks I grouped with could not handle the aggro.  I have also not been a fan of them tanking since they took so much more mana compared to using something like incapacitate or another slow would do the job 80 percent of the time a caster got aggro.  Our poisen dots can still build aggro time though and are not a waste to use while tanking, at least from what I have found. 

This change overall is better for the game.  We have many other tools at our disposal to do what you want to do, do it well, and for the same mana output, even though it requires a shift in play style.

Kat

[Jkal_Shihar]

/agree Bengali

I guess where I played alot of characters to see what they did, the way dots where suppose to work in my opinion was just some added dps to help kill a mob faster. I never saw them as snap aggro spells, especially the way a few use them.

When I solo, I take my time so mana is usually no biggie. I always slowed on pull, incap, disease dot, Scorp, CB, nuke nuke and melee besides pet.

When grouped, cause of the over aggro on the dots, I usually had a seperate spell set, but still it was slow, incap, (FoL for aggro if needed), nuke nuke nuke.

Anyways, what you said makes sense and if they want us as offtanks there should be a spell to get a mobs attention quickly.

[Rhoam]

I think the dichotomy expressed here is a reflection of the gameplay experience of each side's proponents. Rading vs casual gamers. To raiders, agro generated by poison dots was a hinderance, a necessary reduction in dps due to an inability to cast dots. To casual gamers, agro generated by poison dots was a godsend. Casual gamers dont worry about max dps the same way raiders do. I personally never parsed myself and have no wish to.  If I was in an exp group and tanking, I used my poison dot to get and maintain agro and obtain snap agro on adds. It was an implementation of a flaw in the spell design that we got used to dealing with and using. If I wasnt the main tank in the exp group, I either waited to cast my poison dots or didnt use them at all if the tank couldnt hold agro when I used them.

The bottom line is, the casual gamers took a hit for the raiding beastlords. Its typical of Sony as raiders always take priority.  Sure, I can get agro with slow, incap and dots now. Sure, it takes longer but that is not a huge issue. The problem I have is the loss of snap agro I got from ONE cast of my poison dot no matter where the mob was. I could cast chimera and peel a mob from the cleric or other caster without disrupting my attention on the first mob in camp for more than the cast of one chimera. THAT part of snap agro is gone now. Do you really think its possible to gain instant agro by casting three or four spells? I am not saying that the change was bad for all of us. I am just saying that it affects some of us negatively and that  it is  ignorant to suggest that it doesnt.

Raiders wanted increased dps by reducing dot agro and they got it. This change has no positive meaningful effect upon casual gamers, and it does have a significant change to our utility in regular experience groups.

I have to laugh when people say their dots are resisted on raids too much and that this change isnt much of a benefit to them. Well then I have to ask: why did we ask for this change in the first place? It certainly wasnt directed at casual gamers and if it doesnt change the use of dots on raids then what good is it?

[Shieara]

I think you aren't looking at the big picture.

This change wasn't just for beastlords.  It was for every class that has poison dots.  The shammies I have talked to love this change because now they can actually dot and contribute more when before they were unable to do so due to aggro.  Most of the necros I have talked to have just been neutral on it, since with FD they don't seem to have many aggro issues.

In addition, raiders weren't the only ones irritated by the aggro generated by dots.  In just normal pickup exp groups I found that if I used poison dots, tanks had a difficult keeping aggro.  While I am in pretty good shape on defensive aa it is just a waste of healer mana for me to get aggro when there is a nice, beefy tank up there to do it for me.

I myself am neutral about the change, since I never really used poison dots for aggro in the first place.  I always preferred slows and incap for aggro since they don't break mezz.  I have no objection to them adding some kind of snap aggro aa, but I probably wouldn't buy it.  I don't expect to see one though because I don't belive SoE envisions us as a tanking class.  Who knows though?  Sometimes they do the most unexpected things...

[Bengali]

It's not "dot aggro" that was reduced, it was "extra aggro from poison counters" that was eliminated.  That's a huge difference.  Chanters complained about tash being too much aggro because of the poison counter.  Shamans complained about the aggro from poison counters.  So did necros.  It wasn't just beastlords, and it wasn't just people who raided. 

The fact that some people got a benefit out of a busted game mechanic isn't really a reason to keep it busted, imo.  It's better to fix it, and deal with the other benefit seperately if it's necessary to do so.  There was never a good reason for poison counters to be treated any differently from disease counters or from curse counters, period.  When asked why it was there, none of the devs could give you a reason, and if they had it wouldn't have been "so beastlords can get snap aggro."

[Hereki]

I think the dichotomy expressed here is a reflection of the gameplay experience of each side's proponents. Rading vs casual gamers.

Please, this isn't raiders vs casual, don't try to turn it into that.  I'm as casual as they come (although I have raided), and this change doesn't invonvenience me in the least.  In part because I never had spare mana to to waste on dots.