Beastlord DoT Agro Reduction

[Jkal_Shihar]

I'm with Hereki on this as well. Of course I just joined a casual raiding guild (my god two words that most wont think fit together  :evil: ).

I was bout as casual as you could get. I love casting dots when I have the mana. I was one of the beasties who asked for or actually stood behind having our poison dots more in line with disease dots. My one buddy who three boxes a shaman said he loves it. He can cast the poison rain and now not really worry bout that toon while he hacks away with his pally.

Like I mentioned, its just one of those things that many that used that dot as a poor way to snap aggro is going to have to adapted. And if they did make a aggro aa, i'm in the same boat. Doubt I would ever get it. I'm just sick of too many AA's as it is. Rather see a spell instead so your below 50 bst that likes to tank can get also and probably progress for the 60's bst as well.

[Khayden]

And I'm a raider who never really had a problem with using poison dots on raids or in groups and still doesnt.

No idea how someone came to the conclusion this was a raider vs casual thing.

It's simply about how people play their beastlords in any situation and how they will adapt.

Khayden

[Firriann]

if my memory is correct, disease counters used to be high agro as well. SK's used to use a really low level DR dot for agro, then it was changed cause other DoT casters asked for it to be changed. there was some complaints, but overall, most people were happy with that change. i'm a raider, i'm happy with the change. not for upping my dps only, but cause now when i group with necros, or shamans, or even a lower end gearred bst then me (i'm usually MT'ing my groups) i dont have to tell them to watch agro from poison dots. i slow on inc, incap, incap, and then just melee and sit back. even if they use poison dots, i'll be able to keep agro off them. like it or not now, you'll eventually get used to it, just like SK's got used to their disease dot agro removal.

[Rhoam]

Hmm, I dont see how anyone can say they never had a problem with the agro out poison dots used to generate. I know I had problems unless I was main tanking or grouped with a non warrior as tank.

As far as raid vs casual, the early top ten lists identified dot agro as a problem on raids. Look at the top ten tists from about 6 months ago and you will see it.  There was no concern over dot agro in regular exp groups from a beastlord standpoint mentioned.  Only tongue in cheek comments about bsts going down on raids right after the mt did due to dot agro.i do see that this benefits other classes though (but my necro friend was still yanking agro from me with his poison dots last night even after slow, incap, incap and a bst dot).

i dont really have a problem with the change from a tanking standpoint. I do have to cast three spells now instead of two (one slow and two incaps) and I do have to ask shaman and chanters to let me cast them before they use their debuffs or I cant get agro without using fol then. i have told my regular group members that it is going to take me three spell casts to get agro and hold it now and they are adjusting somewhat.  But I dont have an answer for snap agro. I cant get snap agro with incap reliably and I will have to try fol and hope it doesnt cause problems with a mob running off and bringing back a train. I am not sure fol will work as I would be tanking the primary mob and not close enough to the add to get agro from fol. I guess we will have to rely on root parking or mezzers more than we used to.

I know the snap agro aspect may have been unintended as part of the spell. But we did have it and it was a nice tool that we dont have anymore. That's all I am saying.

[Birdienumnum]

I found this weekend what a difference there is in the DoT spells.
I would keep my highest DoT memed, to grab agro away from a mob beating on a caster. In my guild, I was the "sweeper" in a raid, picking up repops, roamers, or any nuisance mob.
I have had to adapt. I tried the dispell line, I tried incapacitate, and slows. The slows seem to work the best at grabbing agro. Not nearly as well as the old DoT's did, however.

[jitathab]

Slow only works well if you cast if the very first thing before anyone gets agro, it performs very poorly in the snap agro ability.

That is what the issue is, the loss of snap agro not the agro reduction on the dots.

[Keonos]

This is not only about being able to get Agro in a group on a single mob. This is about being able to grab Agro on a mob that you do not have initial Agro on. Let me give you and example, since RS was mentioned in some ones post ill use that. OK you pull a mob, and your the tank, the mob gets to about 50% and you get an add. The cleric heals you getting the initial Agro on this mob, OMG NOW WHAT. The way things are now that cleric is toast and so is the group! With  out our snap Agro from Slows/Dots/Incap we are not going to be able to grab that Agro before the cleric dies. There is almost now way you are going to maintain Agro on both the mobs, well yes you can because i have but omg the down  time after that is sad from all the chain casting. Then what the group wypes all because you all wanted a DPS increase. OK where is the dang DPS increase, your dots will never land on high end mobs, they take to long in a group fight, the mob will be dead before you dot helps much and they are a waste of mana, so why use them at all. You are not going to land many dots on high end mobs like in Tacvi/Anguish shoot even in Qvic. Your best bet for added DPS is to use your cold nukes, i crit over 2k with my nukes and very often. They have a .5 cast time and a shorter refresh now, and also they cost less mana.

For those who say a Beast was never meant to be a tank, HEH you have no clue what a beast can do. If we are put in the position that we have to tank we can mostly out Agro any class in the game, before the patch that is. Yes, we don't have the AC/HP and paly, SK, or war dose but we can get darn close. Raid buffed i sit at 13400hp and 2100 AC, plus beastlords get high avoidance and damage mitigation, If we get these tools why not have the ability to use them if the need arises.

[Firriann]

i'll only comment on 2 parts of what you said Keonos, cause it's late and im tired =p i'm always tanking in rs when i'm not in a guild group, so i need to be fast on getting agro when i get adds. yes CB was faster, but almost more mana intensive then it is for me atm. adds, i usually see coming, so i immediately(spelling /off) switch targets and cast slow asap, then 1 incap, switch back to main target (easy with the toggle between targets) to hold back agro (another incap on it) then back on add for one final incap for solid agro. i play in 3rd person view, i see almost everything, and my clerics are not idiots, they dont sit 2 miles away from me, cause they know i need to be close to them if i'm to make sure they dont die (old habit of playing a warrior, no chasing = faster agro). as for landing dots in anguish, i land them plenty enough. one is immune to one type, the other one to another type and the 3rd one, i dont remember if he is immune to anything, cause i'm usually too busy to be dps'ing on him (sorta complicated if you never did the fights, and dont want to give spoilers if that is the case). as for the jevlan event / am, i didnt get to test cause i only been on one of the wins for each and was too busy to do tests this time as well. omm, i died 20 seconds after engage from i dont even know what so didnt get to test there either. as for DoN, never tested cause i'm usually helping shaman in my group to heal the group (i'm in a dps group usually, rogue, bard, shaman, monk, bers or ranger, me). as for txevu/tacvi, no idea, never set foot there, hopefully never will. bsts are not -meant- to be tanks, but yeah, we do the job damn well, did we do it better pre-modification?(i wont call it a nerf, cause i dont see it as one) i dont think so.

[Shirrkarn Ayge]

I have to agree with Firriann, the change ( not nerf ) to dots did not result in me changing the way I tank at all. My agro line up while tanking has always been slow/incap and I have never noticed a problem in obtaining/holding agro in any group.

Also, in reference to Keonos' post, the recast time on our cold nukes has NOT been changed, it is till 30 secs, same as it has always been.

[Jkal_Shihar]

Keonos, I'm tired of all this argueing.
So, let me start off. YES I KNOW WHAT A BEASTLORD CAN AND CAN NOT DO. there, now thats off my chest. I would have to aggree with Firriann. I've watched her fight. She can keep aggro without ever using a dot. To all you that think the dot was the end all be all for snap aggro, You have no idea how to play then. Sorry if I'm coming off rash, but when I had to Tank (and I hate tanking) I was always able to keep aggro without, Let me repeat that, WITHOUT EVER CASTING A DOT.
Sorry for the caps Tast, this topic to me is just making sure the dead horse stays dead.
Look, even before the so called *nerf* which was a *FIX*. How many honestly used a dot for aggro management. The only time I used a dot was on an add that I had to off tank cause the chanter was chain casting mezz on 3 other mobs. That usually results in a dead chanter no matter how good they are. So now you have 5 mobs, 3 mezz'd and ticking down and 1 the MT is on and one you are on.
I can usually handle 2 if I have too. But its the MT's job to quickly establish aggro with there skills cause its what there made for. And I'm using MT very loosely cause I know some bst's opt for that role. But usually with slow and incap and standing toe to toe and casting FoL I have never lost aggro except when the healer uses CH which will always happen.
All they did was lower the aggro on the dot so it could be used for other applications that most would finally see fit. Sucks having a spell that you are afraid to mem cause it usually meant, MT down ST cant get aggro cause some bst casted a dot to help knock off a few extra htpts, then that mob goes after the next PC that casted a dot and usually the ST got aggro.
Most raids I have been on never seen a Bst to be MT or ST anyways on the boss mob. That role is suppose to be reserved for the plate guy anyways (warrior, pally, sk).

[jitathab]

Yes plate tanks are the choice of raids, but most comments here have been argued about groups not raids.

In reality this is one of those arguments that neither side will compromise on thier viewpoint and is going endlessly in circles.

Some BST's never used DoT's in the first place to maintain agro, so do not know how easy it was with a dot to get agro with the sole purpose of tanking.
My Reality is that DPS while tanking from useing the dot technique has dropped due to casting more spells to maintain agro. I especially have significant problems getting agro from monks requiring chain casting of FoL and 2-4 slows.

Others say - look at the bigger picture, it wasnt just BST's that wanted the agro reduction.
In reality we see a split in the necro camp, they have FD the ultimate deagro ability anyway. Shaman's love it because like BST's they generated too much agro from DoT's and unlike BST's they never tanked.
The only clear winning class here was the Shaman, 2 out the 3 are not fully agreed that the change was a good one.

Whereas most BST's want a DPS increase the DPS from the DoT's is small in comparisson to loading another of the new faster nukes - see Bengali's thread for that discussion.

Nothing is getting sorted here and people are getting more irate.

By far the simplest and easiest thing to do is give a snap agro generating mechanism to replace the previous dot. However it should be bourn in mind that the reason the dot was soo effective was that it was a DoT in the first place, so the agro replacer would need to be greater that the agro lost from the DoT to have the same effect.

[Jkal_Shihar]

and with that I do agree with you Jitathab.

This is just one of those topics where no one is gonna agree on. All I can say is if you want snap aggro back send feedback on a new ability. Make up a spell how it should work submit it in. Give Tast some ideas so he can feedback also for those that want it.

Think I'm done on this topic till something is said to help those that find tanking a viable role as a bst. With that, I would back up.

[Rhoam]

Well, I guess I dont know how to play my beastlord, because NOTHING and I do MEAN nothing we have at the moment replaces the snap agro we got from our dots. Sure, I can use my slow and incap (usually use incap quite a few times) to get agro, but its just not as fast as the snap agro from my dots was. Just an example, I was grouped with a druid who was snaring mobs at 95%, almost at the point where they came into camp. I was feverishly casting my incaps after having pulled with my slow, and I could not keep agro off the druid. I relunctantly asked her to wait to slow until later in the fights but she raised a concern that the mobs were resisting her slow and that she wanted to cast it as soon as she could to make sure it landed before it was REALLY an issue. In the past, I would slow and dot and NEVER lose agro. Now, its a bit more of a challenge and I have found myself doing something I dont like: asking other people to change their playstyles to accomodate my inability to get agro and hold it.  The other situation, as stated before, is adds and using dots to gain instant agro. It just takes more casts of incap and if incap is resisted well, sometimes the poor caster dies. But, I guess I need to learn more on how to play my beastlord, cause I do believe dots were the be all and end all for snap agro even if the change was a fix (I agree it was) and not a nerf. After reading your response to Jita's post Jkal, it seems you agree that snap agro needs to be replaced some other way now that the dot snap  agro is gone, so maybe you would agree that our dot agro was the be all and end all for snap agro afterall? :-D

As far as getting a replacement tool for snap agro, dont hold your breath. How long did warriors have to wait before discs and anger augs were placed in the game to let them compete with palys and SKs? I mean, we arent supposed to be a tanking class, it wasnt intended that we be one.  Maybe SOE will change that as well in the upcoming re-envisionment? Looking at the new pet heals on test, who the heck knows what changes they will make. But I dont see them giving an agro tool to a class that wasnt intended to be a tanking class. Maybe I should look at an anger aug, but then I would lose dps procs and crit procs and I would most likely not use my best weapon for the aug so I would lose dps that way as well.

[Tastian]

"Now, its a bit more of a challenge and I have found myself doing something I dont like: asking other people to change their playstyles to accomodate my inability to get agro and hold it."

I think this sums up things pretty well.  Like I said aggro control is more interactive for us and we have to pay more attention, but we can still hold aggro and tank fairly well.  It's not like we are totally incapable of tanking or holding aggro off people.  Also remember that aggro control is supposed to be a group effort.  Sure it was nice to have people go crazy and cast whatever/whenever and not worry about it before, but really aggro control is not only about the person holding it building it up, but also others keeping there's down a bit.  I mean good lord how hard have some beastlords worked in groups to not yank aggro? hehe  Imagine if we told people before "hey my chimera blood needs to run it's duration that's why I'm pulling with it" lol.  Someone that can't even wait literally 5 more seconds to drop a spell in a case like that is seriously the problem, not your aggro generation or understanding of the class imo.  *shrugs*

[sunkash]

I'm with the camp of the DOT aggro reduction being a good thing. These were never meant to have this effect, in the first place, and it wasn't just a fix for beastlords, but for any class that had poison dot agro.

Normally I had to struggle in groups when not tanking to keep from getting agro, even with ehc/shaman doing slows, not using incapicate or DOT's, most groups I'm at the top of the DPS output, and depending on tank, have to scale back my damage initially, or I get agro. Have never when tanking had a problem maintaing agro, just with slow. One trick I have alwasy used is to make sure pet has taunt on; PAMAAC (Pet Assisted Main Assist Agro Control ), see link below; did some research on the board today, to find some articles on this. This should help to keep casters from getting agro, as long as they are not in melee range of mob. Also if at all possible always get pet some weapons. Was tanking in WoS last nite, am only level 68 with 193'ish AA's, nothing much better than baz. gear; using the pet taunt and slow, I never lost agro one single time. I normally put pet on mob before engaging myself, but is only 2-3 sec difference... we started off with all guild members, monk pulling; but as it was getting late, they all left one by one, and ended up with 5 LFG players over time, that I've never played with, including 2 other beastlords, never had a problem. the group cycled through, most all other classes, except War/pal/sk tanking classes, even had an enchanters for a bit, and many pure casting classes, 2 different clerics.

If people are then still pulling agro off you, chances are they would be doing the same thing if there was a warrior tanking, or any other plate class, for that matter; then they would start getting told, they need to manage thier agro better. No reason we should be able to hold agro any better than a plate class; that we could at one point was never really meant to be. However,that being said, it would be great if SOE would give us some sort of taunt, maybe a new disc, we've got a whole 4 discs now. Can almost imagine the uproar from that of being overpowering, so doubt that it will ever happen.

There was another couple of threads, on getting extra agro, from sitting when you sic your pet on mob.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,1336.0.html
If your pet's first attack against a mob is while the owner is sitting, you automatically get a 'sit aggro bonus' - that is, if you sit down the mob will hate you quite a bit more than sitting does normally.  If the pet hits the mob while you are standing, you are simply added to its hate list and really have no aggro - the mob just knows you need to be killed at some point.

So, if all else fails you could use this as bonus agro when you want it. Park pet a few steps in front of you, sit down, on incoming, /pet attack, slow, pet's taunting, and stunning/proc'ing, DOT/nuke; doubt at this point a raid force of warriors dual welding crowbars could yank agro off you.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,939.30.html

Coprolith :
PAMAAC (Pet Assisted Main Assist Agro Control   ) would be most noticeable in small groups where the MA doesnt have the ability to lock agro. A beastlord as MA in a group with only caster's and priests can let its pet lock the agro instead of spending tons of mana on chaining DoTs and Incapacitate. A warrior may switch from his agro weapons to his dps weapons if he only has one other melee (you) to keep agro over. Just instruct your group to watch for pet proc messages, and not to start blasting away until the pet has procced a few times. There'll still be limits tho, a wizzie landing 3 crits in short succession stands a good chance to get smeared into a pulp.

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,2122.0.html

Coprolith :
consider the main agro builder for us to be our warder. There's a definite advantage in being the only melee'er in a group. When there are no other melees around the pet's huge agro generation will insure that the mob stays on the nearest PC in melee range, that is, you.


http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php?topic=1385
Jaeren :

One thing to check and while it may seem stupid, make sure pet taunt is on. I've gotten in the habit of summoning pet & turning it off, sometimes forgetting that fact

Edit: I also moved this (leaving a shadow topic in the general forum) to the Library since it's a helpful thread for those of us that need to get agro


http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,939.15.html