Beastlord DoT Agro Reduction

[sunkash]

/agree Grbage !

Rhoam; yes I was not reading you incorrectly. from the original posting on this and on SOE boards, at least from what I can read, most people have been talking about just aquiring agro from the main mob pulled into camp. Now that we're talking about adds, this is normally called CC. From what I've experienced, when there is no rooter, and/or mez'er in your group, even if you have a real plate class tank, can lead to rather dicey situations, unless as Grbage stated you and/or your pet go over and start smacking that add.

PS: highly prefer Sun to Sunk; name was computer generated on charachter creation, but Sun happens to my wifes maiden name, and Kash for $$.. also just happens to be my 2 favorite things, in that order; It was a name I just coun't pass up!

[Rhoam]

To clarify my point above (I hope anyway) , not all casters who get aggro are being stupid. Lets assume Im tanking mob1 and have aggro controlled on it. It gets me to 50% hps and the druid/cleric, not knowing an add is near, casts a 4-5k heal on me just as the add comes into aggro range. The add, mob2 now has a good bit of animosity on the druid/cleric for the heal he/she just cast on me and starts beating on the druid/cleric. In the past, one and I mean one cast of chimera was enough for me to get aggro on mob2. Chimera was always more aggro than slow and incap in my experience.

I am having trouble peeling an add off of a healer type in this situation with any degree of expediency. I have gone in to melee on mob2 and it does work but it creates a problem if mob1 doesnt follow me. If that happens, then most likely, the druid/cleric is low on hps, I am low on hps and the offtank who was less of a tank than I am is low on hps at the same time. It get s dicey. Chimera's aggro was truely unbelievable ( too good it seems). It was just short of paly or sk snap agro. With chimera, I could stay on mob1, dot mob2 from a distance and have it run to me, or, I could dot mob2 and have mob1 follw me to mob2 because of the additional aggro initiated by dotting mob1 at the begining of that fight. My point is, we dont have that now, even if we were never intended to have it.  I am simply saying we dont have that tool anymore and it does change my playstyle (in groups where I am tanking only, which is about 90% of the time I play, not while I solo or I am raiding) .

[Zannar]

Yes, "DoT aggro" was fubar forever.

Thats your opinion - not mine.  DoTs were high agro because there had to be some consequence to using them.  If there were no consequence (like now) then shaman, druids, and necros (since this was built into EQ way before Beastlords) could deal damage with impunity.  High agro was intended to balance the power of the spells.

The great thing about the beastlord class is we can fill many roles.  DPS may be a primary role for the class.  Providing slows and 2nd tier buffs may also be a primary role of the class.  If you step back and listen - what many of us are saying is for our groups and in some cases guilds Beastlord as offtank was a primary role due specifically to our once high agro ability.  You can argue semantics with us all night long about which spells or combinations of spells are just as effective as DoTs used to be.  You can argue all night long that Beasts were never intended to tank.  However neither of these things are the point.  The point is we feel that Beastlods have lost a tool and many of us want something to replace it.  If you would listen to that and not argue semantics then you would easily see that IF we ask for for it and by some miracle get such a tool then ALL beastlords benefit.

What your imposing on all beastlords is your vision of the class.  You are supposed to be our advocate.  Someone who listens to the concerns of your peers and passes along information to devs.  I hate the change however, its done and im not asking that it be reversed.  If many of you beleive its beneficial thats great and Tastian should pass along to the devs that many beastlords are pleased our requests were heeded.  However, he also should pass along that many of us feel we have lost a good deal of our utility due to the change - especially in the area of snap agro.  Its not Tastian's job to tell us how to play this class - or define what roles this class is intended to fill.  Its his job to listen to the community and pass ideas up to the devs.  Our class advocate needs to recognize that many beastlords strongly disagree with him - not one or two deviants.  Again, Tastain is our class advocate and its his responsibility to support both camps here.  He once went to bat for the agro reduction segment of the Beastlord community now its time to evaluate how the change EFFECTED beastlords and go back to Sony and say "Guys the reduction of poison dot agro was a very positive thing however, im hearing from my peers that it has adversely effected their ability to offtank and save casters in some situations." 

Thats all were asking for here.  We dont want the agro added back to the DoTs.

[Bengali]

Tastian didn't say he wouldn't pass on your feedback expressing a desire for an aggro ability.  In fact, if you read his posts in their entirety you can see that he already has passed on the feedback.  Someone just asked if we were asking too much, and Tastian gave his opinion that the devs would not likely give us such an ability.  I agree with that assessment (it really isn't likely that we'll get anything like that) but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't press for it or that your advocate is ignoring you. 

But based on his conversations with the devs, the dev reaction to similar circumstances (the monks were saying the exact same thing that you guys are when Dragon Fang got its aggro reduced, and were told flat out that the devs didn't think that monks were supposed to have a snap aggro ability, even if many of them used it as such) and an honest assessment of our overall class abilities, Tastian offered his opinion on whether you guys would be satisfied with the answer that he gets regarding an aggro ability (assuming he ever gets one, they don't always answer, as you know).  That's all it was -- a prediction as to whether we will get a snap aggro ability, not a refusal to pass along the idea because of his personal views.

[jitathab]

To answers Bengalis question earlier - was using Chimera for getting fast agro.

[Jkal_Shihar]

hmmm.....Well, thanks Tast for clearing up a few things.

I actually had to take a deep breath and back away from this topic as its got alot of us, me especially, in arms against many of us.
We dont know what SOE has in store for us, we must remember that. Perhaps they dont want us to be "tanking", perhaps many of our spells they dont want us to use for "snap aggro". I just dont know.
Tast has been trying to help and be the voice in between when we are left in the dark. Along with his and many others help we have moved quite a ways of where we once were.
There is gonna be alot of discontent, but you do have to remember, if SOE doesnt see us in these particular roles then we must be asking what it is they want us in.?.
I was PM'ing Tast quite regularly in the beginning of all this. Deciding if I wanted to come back. Many of the changes they have made though, made me feel like enjoying the game all over again. Now that I'm actively looking for a semi good raiding guild I can only hope for the best.
But instead of bitching and arguing bout snap aggro and aggro reduction, we do seriously need to find out what it is our niche is.
Maybe they (SOE) see us as the mini shaman's we were suppose to be, who knows. But I will say this, no matter what happens or what someone might consider a "nerf" or "fix". I will still enjoy the class that I retired my ranger too.

[Rhoam]

Lol, based on the lore for why beastlords are not in EQ2, I would say Sony doesnt see a role for us. I mean our class was purposefully excluded from EQ2 and we are told beastlords lost their purpose in society and were outcast. Well there ya have it. (kidding, but still very concerned) I am extremely worried about what the reinvisionment will bring for us. I do not think Sony has a clear definition of what we bring to groups. I mean, we are lower end DPS with some utility. Our buffs are meaningless in all but some regular exp grps, where bazaar geared toons are present as our buffs are meaningless to anyone with better than bazaar gear.  Our slows are mitigated now mostly, making higher dps have a premium, but we dont have high dps, we have fallen behind warriors and knights for crying out loud and our one true defining class utility, paragon is antiquated and the upgrade was nerfed, not increased after it was first introduced in an expansion. Our omens spell line is crap, I mean real crap. What is it that we do bring to raids or high end exp groups? The way I see it, we are second class citizens right now. We arent the best choice for any need that a group has and our ability to do it all with less efficiency has been nerfed by ommision and content changes. We need some increase in either our utility or dps.  But, the problem is, there are some classes that have been crying alot louder and alot longer than we have for upgrades and I think we have fallen into the cracks so to speak.

[Tastian]

"Thats your opinion - not mine.  DoTs were high agro because there had to be some consequence to using them.  If there were no consequence (like now) then shaman, druids, and necros (since this was built into EQ way before Beastlords) could deal damage with impunity.  High agro was intended to balance the power of the spells."

No that's fact.  The change now even proves it.  There is/was no reason for a spell that deals 1k damage max in 1 minute to generate over 4X the aggro of a spell that instantly deals 4k+ damage.  How can you even claim that high aggro was intended to balance the power of these spells when that same aggro isn't attached to spells that are many times more powerful?  Do you honestly think that tainted breath was balanced around having extra aggro so that I could go one shot of it for one shot of sunstrike and keep aggro?  Clearly we need level 9 dots that deal less than a hundred damage balanced to be on par aggro wise with a spell crit'n over 2k.  /boggle

"The point is we feel that Beastlods have lost a tool and many of us want something to replace it.  If you would listen to that and not argue semantics then you would easily see that IF we ask for for it and by some miracle get such a tool then ALL beastlords benefit."

I never denied beastlords lost something.  I have come right out and said that some areas of aggro generation have suffered, both efficency and aggro per second.  It is not arguing semantics though to explain why something happend and how it fits into the game.  If beastlords got a CH it'd help the class and utility, but it's not going to happen.  Tanking is something beastlords did and some beastlords saw *ZERO* change in tanking with this change, that tells you something.  Beastlords can still tank a lot of cases and although it's not as easy/brainless it can still be done.  I have never denied some would lose out on this change, but at the sametime I can't deny that this change is long overdue and how it should have been for a very long time.  Like I said to someone above, you are justifying a want for something with what was missing.  Imagine if back in velious they had fixed this and by luclin when beastlords were introduced dots were as they are now.  Would any beastlord have been asking or had any claim with which to ask for such a thing?  Would a leather wearing class that takes more damage than everything except for casters have been asking for extra tanking spells and what would have been their justification? 

"What your imposing on all beastlords is your vision of the class."

/cranky on

In light of this last comment I'm going to push extra hard for pet naming so you can call your's "clue" and actually have one.  I'm insulted and this is bullschit.  I tanked more than any other beastlord I've ever known.  I MT'd hundreds of LDoNs,  I MT'd EPs for exp, MT'd back in VT, MT'd groups through GoD trials, I OT'd all through time and even MT'd some trials at times.  Do you think I didn't lose something on this?  Do you think I didn't have to remove tainted breath from my default spell set?  Do you even have a clue how this effected me?  Do you even care or are you still too damn caught up in yourself?  The change hurt me and how I play my beastlord too.  That doesn't change how things are though, it doesn't change why it happend and it doesn't change how I do my job.  Do you really think I'm so fugging selfish that I'd try to force changes that would help the play of my beastlord with no regard to other beastlords and other classes in this game?  God what an insult.  If I had the kind of power you seem to think I do then half of our omens spells would be different than they are lol. 

I passed along the information that was there and continue to do so.  The truth is that beastlord +aggro could wind up on the top 10 if enough wanted it, but that isn't even close to happening atm.  I got hundreds of e-mails/pms/messages/etc in favor of lowering dot aggro and the issues there in, not to mention other classes and the fact that yes it was a game mechanic fug up.  Since mention of this change, since this change and all through this thread I think I've barely hit "dozens" of people that wish it hadn't happend. 

I really am sorry that this change negatively impacted anyone just like I am anytime any change negatively impacts anyone.  I know some people that still want the insane aggro on slows back(if you didn't play right after the disease counter change you missed out lol), some still want pets to take a buff and be able to CH by re-buffing, some want fero to take a regant, yes some beastlords have actually said they want the regant back lol.  Not everyone is going to be happy with everyone change.  In fact, atleast someone will be upset with every single change.  I've had to accept that and I try my best to fairly and equally reprsent any/all opinions that people offer up, but I refuse to accept people that are so caught up in themselves that they refuse to see the big picture, won't listen to what they are being told and come right out and falsely accuse me of things I did the exact opposite of. 

I know you and some others want more aggro and I've made it known.  I've also seen two other classes (monks and zerkers) have similiar talks about aggro generation and that didn't go so well.  I'm doing my job by passing along the information I have both from you and to you.

Btw, I just re-read this entire thread (yeah I'm just that touched in the head), and unless I'm missing something there are only about 5 people in this entire 5 page thread that are saying they don't like the change/want more aggro/etc.  5 pages and about 5 people.  One of which started the thread lol.  There are more posts in this thread about people that are happy with the change than those that are unhappy with it.  I really think you need to step back and look at the big picture.  I know it can be hard when a change happens that hurts you or your character.  Especially if it's a change that has been a part of your character for awhile.  Please don't take it out on me and others though.  Make a case, show some data, provide some facts and get some support.  It will be passed along and it will be noted.  Sony still has say on what happens though and as I've said it really isn't likely we'll see more aggro intentionally added.  What you can do though is adapt like many in this thread have said.  I think the dps/aggro weapon issue is one a lot of people miss.  I still carry around an SoD w/yak aug that i used a lot to help with tanking.  There are a few good threads about spells/aggro on these boards. 

Finally, if you want to build support for your case show where beastlord aggro is currently and why it should be higher.  You can't just say dots do less aggro, you need to show that there is a justifiable need for beastlords to generate higher aggro than they currently can.  You need to show that slow+incap+weapons/augs/etc simply isn't sufficent to allow beastlords to perform to an acceptable level in terms of aggro generation/tanking. 

[Jkal_Shihar]

Hey Tast, I got some extra Flexaril if ya need any  :-D



Oops, forgot to mention though, what you said is the point I was looking for.

[Shirrkarn Ayge]

Well said Tastian... /applaud

[sunkash]

Tastian is right on here. /memblur Tastian :)

If you go back and look at almost all of the changes that have come along in that last year or so, what you'll find is that almost all were changes that were not just specific to beastlords but were being asked for by all the other classes that were affected... classic examples
would be pet zoning and pets not poofing when you invis. If other pet classes were not also asking for these, or came out and said that it didn't need changing, it simply would not have been done. SOE just like any company out there, goes for things that give the bigest bang fo the buck, and helps the most people 1st, and work down from there. Same thing here, the other classes that had poison dots were also complaining about it, now its been changed. Tastian, as well as most other people here have been attempting to give some alternatives, not dictate how you must play your toon, now that the change is in place, and not likely to go back, as its was never changed just because Tastian "or us beastlords" only asked for it. Another example would be our new heals, wasn't just us that got improved heals, but also rangers, etc.

I've talked to many people in my guild, my original guild that's pretty much faded from existance, and other ingame friends, on beastlord offtanking ability, not just lately but off and on for 16 months or so, as that's when I started playing this game, and trying to get some insight not just from this board, but from other players, and other classes, what they do, and what they expect us beastlords to do in groups and raids. To date I've been told that CC is exclusively the job of classes that can root or mez, failing that a class that can kite providing there is room, etc, and beastlords aren't in those categories, so don't offtank. I've yet to have a single person say yes beastlords should be offtanking adds.

Right about the time God was going throught  test, we had at least on test, a new ability to root, and from what I recall, was shot down, by the beastlord comunity... no we don't want that we want more DPS... it was dropped, and we got nothing in return. could be that SOE realized we could use more utility, and were not to the point they thought we needed more DPS, so it was dropped and we got Notta, Zilch, nothing in its place. In hindsight, maybe it would have been better to not look a gift horse in the mouth, then at least for the people who really want to offtank they could still contol adds. If we really want this ability, it should be asked for as a seperate issue, along the lines of utility, could be a taunt, or even just say we're having 2nd thoughts on that root we passed up some time ago, and now we want it. Could it be that someone @ SOE actually saw this issue coming way ahead of time, and put a fix in up front??? Nah! very doubtful.

/rant on
When I 1st started playing 16 months or so ago, the general comments from the beastlord community, and saw it stated many times, that SOE had beastlords, just about exactly where they wanted us to be.. sure there's a few tweeks on the highend that needs done, etc... Having worked with programmers, program managers, and company management more decades than I care to disclose; this said one thing to them.. ok. Great job team!! this problems fixed, lets move on to the next problem "or the next squeeky wheel". Unfortunately that's about what happened we are still as a class exactly where they left us back then, with little or no improvement, in any category there is. melee, DPS, new spells, utiltiy, etc... Now that as a class we are in every category way behind the curve, maybe its time to start putting some real pressure on SOE to get some our class specific issues fixed.. most of our class specific issues status are the same they have been for months. I'm sure Tastian is talking with them about them, just they so far are not listening.
/rant off

[Rhoam]

Maybe they arent listening because we are still playing the class. The beastlord class is a very popular class to play and the problems we are talking about affect a very small percentage of beastlords, ie....late stage GoD and on. They didnt address mage issues or pally or sk or warrior issues until people stopped playing those classes in droves. The changes required in those classes also stemmed from level 20 plus and onward. Our issues seem to arise at the Plane of Time plus stage of our progression. As has been stated many times, we are fine up until that point.  Because our issues only affect a small percentage of the beastlord community, we may not see an immediate response from Sony until highend beastlords are gone in droves. We have seen some leave, sadly, but the majority of high end beasts are sticking it out, hoping for a fix that is most likely far off on the horizon. (Unless the reinvisionment addresses these issues, which so far scares me more than encourages me)

As for questioning Tastian's representation of us as a class, that is purely ridiculous. We are very lucky to have Tastian and if you dont see that then you just havent read enough of the posts on this board. /cheers Tastian

[Khayden]

I've read posts by a number of class reps, I've looked at over half the main class websites.  Tastian is the best class rep there is by a country mile.

You can complain all you like about the SMALL negative impact this change had on one aspect of our class, and you can argue that it's impossible for you to pull adds off casters now till you're blue in the face for all I care (which is BS, I do it regularly and it's slightly more difficult at worst), but when you attack Tastian your opinion devalues completely in my eyes and I suspect in the eyes of many others.

He got lots of feedback, the majority in favour of the change, he passed it on.  The evidence of that is here on these boards.  Complaining about it after the fact and suggesting he's not doing his job as a class rep is frankly pathetic.

Khayden

[Doomringer]

Wow it looks like I missed a good one here. Oh well it is a topic close to my own heart so I have to add my 2 cp.

For a while now DPS has been the forefront of Beastlord concerns. One thing that was brought up was that the majority of BL did not even mem a whole line of spells (poison dots) because they did not do enough damage for the aggro they generated. So as a part of our class fix we put up there to "fix" our DoTs. I was a very big fan of this and crossed my fingers and cheered Tast on to fight the good fight for us. Behold our savior has come through!! I can now cast DoTs with almost no fear, YAY!!!

Well now like some Beasts out there who put themselves up LFG as a viable tank for 90% of the content in the game. I found myself struggling in places and in certain groups trying to hold aggro. Some have said that the new change has had zero effect on their tanking in groups. I am not gonna call anyone a liar but personally I have found it extremely hard to to get aggro back after loosing it when playing in a high end group when the wizzies are nuking for 4K+ and healers are healing for 6K+ and other classes are cranking 400+ DPS and procing crazy numbers. Then some groups I have to contend with overlapping roles (chanters and shammies) that overwrite most of my aggro. Over all I would have to say I can still hang.

I like the way Tast put it when he said it is no longer "brainless".  I am stil tanking for groups but no longer look forward to it. I enjoyed tanking because I felt tough when I did it in the past.  I have had the feeling some time that maybe something was wrong about it, because it was too easy.  In the end I feel that is our lot though. We shoiuld not be a primary option to be MT for any group anywhere. For over 3 years I have been using my dots as a "crutch" to put myself into a role that maybe I wasn't intended. I can't help it but to feel this "fix" was a curse in disguise but like others have said I will either begrudgingly adapt or retire bitterly. I don't wanna retire so that just leaves me begrudged : )

I have said it in another thread that we need to be conscious of our place in the game and it takes alot of maturity to have powerful tools and understand when some are taken away to try to see what the effects are to the whole game. (If it is a good thing)

As far as our ability to MT or OT effectively IMO with the power of the priest classes atm, it is not hard to keep a heavily AA'd 11k beast up in almost any content the game has to offer much less the 13K monsters that are becoming more and more common. I think it needed to be fixed for that reason alone, but even more so for classes that have almost no DPS ability beyond stacking DoTs.

As pure game mechanics are concerned it was really baffling to see a beast grab aggro in group from a rogue and wizzy who both doing 400+ DPS each on cruise control by doing nothing more than casting SV a few seconds too early. There is just too much that does not make sense about our Dots the way they were to justify a change back to the way they were.

I guess what I have to do now is get a "tanking" set of weapons with multiple anger and enrage effects on them like I have my "solo" weapons with lifetaps on 'em. Neither will be my primary DPS weapons but with the new bandolier function it has got me shopping the bazaar again : )

[corruptor64]

In my opinion this change should be good. We will be able to cast a DoT and not gank aggro immediately.

I tank a lot. I love it.
Honestly, I have never used a dot for aggro. My guild uses our chanters a lot, and they are an awesome team. Non damage aggro is golden. It was taught to us awhile ago, and ever since i have never used dots for aggro. 65% slow, incap, 30% slow...all that is needed...chain the 30% slow if needed. I never have issues. Our nukes are awesome for aggro as well. I have 2 nukes up, the lvl 69 one and 63. Damn gates nuke still evades me... With .5 casting time they are nice for fast hiting and nice aggro. I do have 2 chaotic strike augs in my epic 1.5 which is in my mainhand atm.  Every now and then you might get ganked for a second, but just let one spell land and then its yours then on. 99.9% of the time i have no issues.

Nice post Tast. As always keep up the good work. Glad you are behind us.