Rake.... Your thoughts

[hakaaba]

Everyone keeps saying that rake "only" uses 30 endurance a minute. 

Remember, this effectively eliminates all of your endurance regen, so if youre using other discs too, you can run out over the course of a relatively short time.  Especially if you died recently and arent starting from full end.

Also,now that we have endurance based abilities, i'd like to see +end on bst only items.  Theres no reason for us to be required to count on the fact that monks can also use an item for it to have +end on it.

[Dummkopf]

It is really "only" 30 endurance, just not use it for one tick and you have that endurance regened back, it is really not a real problem at all. I could run constant rake parses for over 6 hours with only dropping down to around 30% endurance on my very old copied char with only 8.8k endurance. Of course, if we use discs we spend endurance a tad faster but it still far from being a real problem, yes, we have to manage it a bit but i dont really see a problem with that aspect of the skill (and i use it constantly, just because its on my kick button).

[Rarrum]

If they're not going to add that last 1hp/1mp to SA because they think there's too much mana regen around already (yet they just added 5mp ench aura... ... ...), they filling SA in with like 1-2 points of end regen would also help with the cost of Rake.  But so far in my time using it, I've had no end issues.

At the least though.. if they changed it.. maybe I could convince the half of my guild that has SA blocked to unblock it ;p

[whiskaz]

Any chance of some more feedback on rake besides "dud".  Looking at your gear and AA it's in the range of a 5% dps upgrade to your total damage dealt and you still lack some AAs that will make it even better.

How much damage would you expect it to do given the scope of the expansion?

Is it the fact it uses END?

Is it the 30sec refresh?

Like I say you gotta give me more to go on than "boo" or "hiss".  Also, the main problem most people have had with rake is it's lack of scaling, but unless your magelo is way out of date you are actually at the part of the progression spectrum that will see a more sizeable boost from the skill, so that rules that out.

I think the damage suffers, it seems to be missed a little too often and the damage just isnt good enough to boot.  I would like to do great damage outside of using it with a couple of combat discs.  The refresh time of 30 seconds sucks too.  My fights last like 10 seconds and then theres another pull coming.  I think it should be lowered to like 15 or 20, and also like recoil said the minimum damage is way too low, and of course scaling would be nice.

[Tastian]

One thing people constantly miss though is looking at the road and not the end.  They look at "how" and not "what".  For example, people saying things like,

"I think i worded it wrong lol what i ment was i dont like the idea of 180 a shoot for a maybe 300damg to 1600 random amount of damg would realy rather have a higher min damg amount if you have to watch the usege on it."

Or

"The refresh time of 30 seconds sucks too."

The spell is balanced around an average return on dps.  In this case it happens to be ~20-25(ish) dps.  Call it 20 for sake of easy calcs.  That means 20dps X 60sec = 1200dmg a minute.  With that number in mind the ability could easily be:

-  1min refresh 1200dmg every time 360 END

-  15sec refresh 300dmg every time 90 END

-  1 minute refresh  2400dmg  360 END  50% miss rate

-  5 minute refresh 6000dmg 1800 END

And of course tons of other possiblities.  The point though is that you can't argue one aspect of the spell without seeing other aspects effected.  Unless you can get people to agree that the dps needs to go higher (which is very hard to argue without scaling) then changes that effect the dps:  refresh, damage range, damage, etc simply can't be changed. 

If people wanted to see it be more reliable via a higher min damage, for example, then that'd mean the higher max damage went down. It'd mean the sustained dps would be the same, but those triple 1k+ hits wouldn't happen ever(not saying they are common now, but you get the point).  If people want a lower refresh, the again the damage would go down. 

Having said that we have to look at where the skill stands now:

-  Very low miss rate, so it is already pretty consistant.  Especially compared to things like normal melee and feral swipe with a 40(ish)% miss rate.

-  30 second refresh.  Long enough that people don't feel the need to spam, but low enough where we don't have to make a major END commitment and decision every say 3 or 5 minutes and can instead throw it out and really tailor our END useage.

Also we have to realize that PoR wasn't a dps expansion for hardly anyone via spells/disc/etc.  Lots look at PoR for us compared to depths for us, but if you look at PoR for us compared to PoR for others it's a much different picture.  Rogues saw no real dps gain, wizards didn't,  monks say ~1.8dps upgrade, zerkers got an aura that will vary some, but help others as well, necros nothing, etc.  Atm we actually got two dps upgrades(one of which may be changed still, but is live atm).  No it doesn't "fix" our dps by any means, but it is almost impossible for an expansion to do that.  Yeah rake would be much better if it scaled and that's something I will continue to try getting addressed, but at the sametime, some of these problems people have with rake are things that can't really be addressed.

If people want rake to be a different recast I'm willing to consider that and see where others stand on the issue.  If people think that there are previously exisiting END issue that never really came up, that's definitely something to look into as well.  If people feel there are existing dps issues(which I agree with and continue to try getting addressed) then we can continue working on that, but to hang our dps "fix" on rake is like hanging our old aggro issue "fix" on roar.  Rake is one part of the puzzle for us and although it could be better, it could also very easily be worse.  Just the fact that we even saw a dps upgrade in an expansion very light on them goes to show that they are aware of the issue.  It isn't "enough" by any means, but it atleast shows that they went "not a lot of dps this expansion, but it's ok to give beastlords some more".  *shrugs*

Please keep the feedback coming and I'll try to see what we can get done.  Already on the list are:

-  Scaling
-  Possible END issues with gear(would like some examples if possible from people on this)

Any other new issues I'm willing to hear and if more feel that the range is too low and are willing to give up the higher hits and have a lower potential burst via the skill then mention it, but realize that you can't just change one aspect without seeing other changes made to bring it in line.  If more would like to see a 15sec or 1min or whatever as a duration change then let me know.  Some think the END to dmg is off, we can see.  I know some want it to basically keep the end to dmg ratio, but take larger chunks at a time thus raising the dps, but that's a larger change where first they'd have to feel the dmg on it needs to go up.  Possible mind you and I'd like to see it, but it's a much broader issue than just adjusting the spell dat.

Bleh, I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but this is hella long as it is lol.  Please do keep the feedback coming, but keep in mind where the skill falls and offer up suggestions that might help the skill that fit within its scope.

[Dummkopf]

I guess the "possible END issues with gear" means the fact that our class only gear doesnt has endurance on it. There are 2 examples in my magelo, the 2.0 and the bst range from DP.

[Shamno]

I don't think endurance is really an issue. I got almost 7.7k endurance. Even when I trigger protective and Empathic Fury I still got almost 2k endurance left.....that is still al ot of room to use 130 endurance every 30 seconds. The only time you will see a problem is on endurance drain AoE's but really you should be then *shrug*

My problem is not the cost, just the scaling and the range.

Range is the biggest issue I have with this disc. Now I don't expect to use it as far range, but I don't expect to be examining the inner working of the mob to use it. This is the only abilty of this type with such a restriction on range grant it that is has other restrictions, but nothing as limiting as range.

Scaling on the other hand does need some work, might not need to be great but it does need to show some signs of change over time.

[Tastian]

The range issue is one they are aware of and I know they are considering tweaks for.  I can't say much at this point, but it is something I do expect to see fixed.

The scaling is an issue that has been brought up since beta and I think almost everyone agrees with.  There was some talk about what to make it scale with though because for beastlords the "best" weapon isn't always the highest damage or best ratio'd weapon out there.  Atk power scales poorly, worn atk can cap very early in progression, etc.  If there were someway to have the skill check spell focus and then deal combat damage still that might work, but that's still iffy.  Basically at that point it takes them not only deciding to make it scale, but setting bounds and putting in code to make it work because that mechanic doesn't exist currently that I'm aware of.

Anyone know of something to tie scaling to that hasn't been mentioned?  Atk has issues, weapon dmg has issues, ratio has issues, etc.  Their are still ways those could be made to work, but if there's some way of getting the scaling to work that might have been overlooked maybe that will make it even easier to get changed. 

[hakaaba]

Yeah the problem with endurance is our class only armor doesn't have  it.  Yes, i still have ~8k endurance but theres *no* reason why i have to depend on monks for that.

Thats like saying oh its ok if half my gear doesnt have mana.  The other half does.

[recoil silverclaws]

What about adding a few + to rake items for example adding +5 to rake on the 1.5 +10 to the 2.0 and +15 to the bst only ranged in demi (insted of the +15 to kick thats curently on it atm heh) this would mean a lower bst with no epic would get a desent return, a semi raiding bst with 1.5 would get a little bost, 2.0 semi/ high enda lot  better and a demi lvl high end beast with this item would get te highest return. Not sure if this would work but it makes sence to me so i thought id throw it out their for yea.

[Sariss Bloodscale]

Could it scale with your current maxhp?  It seems to me that hp is a pretty decent way of determining the 'tier' a particular bst is at, and no one's complaining (that I know of) that our hp isn't commensurate with other classes as far as advancement goes.  Buffs would provide the same level of bonus across the board regardless of your level/raiding status.  It merely comes down to the more damage you can take, the more you can dish out!

[Shamno]

I would go with other worn values...Cleave, Accuracy, Kick mods, combat effects etc.

[Dummkopf]

Worn mod2 are more than unreliable. Each player has different things he wants so his worn modifiers are different as well, that is absolutely no way to determine progression.  Max HP could work but that will change quite a bit with current charms and group/raid boni.

[Pakratz]

This is just my personal playstyle, but I'm not looking forward to hitting a key every 30 sec for 20 dps, I'd rather it be 2 or 3 minutes.  BL have alot going on to play our class well as it is.  We already cast our dod pet every 18 sec, cast growl every minute, position and heal warder, contant movement to keep ourselves in melee positon, etc etc.   I don't use kick or Feral swipe for this reason.  If it stays as it is with 30 sec refresh, limited range, and unscaled damage, I won't use it.

If you need to scale it, you could tie it to worn pet focus.  While they're at it, maybe scale warder dps to pet focus too!  Now theres a concept.

[hakaaba]

While i'd like to see more things scale with pet focus.  I'm not sure that  makes much sense.

And hitting a hotkey every 30 seconds isn't really a big deal imo.  The hardest part for me was finding a hotkey to boot from my set of 20 to make space lol.

Bye bye slowed message.