true double attack

[Dummkopf]

Well, if someone says that warriors (and paladins and shadowknights as well) surpass our dps they mean our total dps including pet and spells. Most player dont realise that but at least in the higher equipment levels of this game (txevu+ imo) it is certainly true.

[hakaaba]

Lol you think we could convince sony if we could get a nice parse of a bst going all out for dps then another parse of a warrior doing more dps? :(

[Bengali]

We're talking about (extremely general ranges):

bst 300-400 dps (includes pet and spells)
warriors 400-550 dps
rangers 500-720 dps (includes spells)
monks 600-750 dps
zerks 600-750 dps
rogues 800-1000 dps

These are numbers derived assuming top-end weapons (epic 2.0s, etc) and a variety of upper-end raid mobs.  The numbers for everyone except for warriors assume "burst dps" -- the warrior parses I've seen didn't seem to include warriors using their offensive discs so I'm not sure where they parse when that happens.

These also assume "ideal" circumstances when your spells actually land and your pet isn't insta-gibbed by AE rampage.  On fights where you can't use your pet or where the mobs are resistant to cold and poison (there are way too many of these for my tastes) the numbers look even worse.

[Prelgor]

We're talking about (extremely general ranges):

bst 300-400 dps (includes pet and spells)
warriors 400-550 dps
rangers 500-720 dps (includes spells)
monks 600-750 dps
zerks 600-750 dps
rogues 800-1000 dps

Eww...  I had no idea it was that bad!  I'll assume paladins/shadowknights fall in with the warriors somewhere.  We don't have anywhere near the level of utility to justify DPS that low, even if it hadn't fallen behind, as the folks at high levels of progression keep saying.  I could understand being behind pure melee DPS, but we should be ahead of tanks and close to rangers.  I understand a bit more concretely now.  Thank you. 

[Sarkaukar]

We're talking about (extremely general ranges):

bst 300-400 dps (includes pet and spells)
warriors 400-550 dps
rangers 500-720 dps (includes spells)
monks 600-750 dps
zerks 600-750 dps
rogues 800-1000 dps

Eww...  I had no idea it was that bad!  I'll assume paladins/shadowknights fall in with the warriors somewhere.  We don't have anywhere near the level of utility to justify DPS that low, even if it hadn't fallen behind, as the folks at high levels of progression keep saying.  I could understand being behind pure melee DPS, but we should be ahead of tanks and close to rangers.  I understand a bit more concretely now.  Thank you. 

As he mentioned most of that is burst dps over a short period of time 3minutes or less.  For the rogue/monk/zerk you havent listed what their non-disc DPS would be.  Thus the fallacy for sometime has been attempting to compare sustained (6+minutes), non-disc dps classes to burst (3minutes or less) DPS classes.

bst 300-400 dps (includes pet and spells)
warriors 400-550 dps (non-burst I believe was mentioned.)
rangers 500-720 dps (includes spells - 2 minor melee burst AA disc, self-Guardian and group/raid Auspice.  Trueshot for 2 minutes falls at the low end but it is not a melee disc, and both WS and TS are still restricted to 72 base reuse time)
monks 600-750 dps (burst with a series of discs)
zerks 600-750 dps (Closer to 900 dps, depends on length and type of fight.  They have 7 or 8 burst discs to burn but can not burn them at the same time, but one after another)
rogues 800-1000 dps (burst with a series of discs)

Itemization - Zajeer does itemization based on zone/mob/event and a baseline formula, using a tier showing where each class should be in regards to DPS.  He does not take into consideration any discs, only passive abilities, be they innate or AA.

[Tastian]

One of the things you have to realise though is that "burst" for a beastlord takes many things into account and we simply don't see as much of a boost from it.  When I go pure burn on a mob I'm going to...

Burn my mana pool (as best I can, DoN buff, dots if they land, nukes, etc)
Use my level 60 disc
Use roar of thunder (18 AA 15 min reuse)
Use frenzy of spirits (4 AA uhhh 12 min? reuse)
Use Bestial allignment (18? AA 72 minute or something stupidly long reuse)
Feral swipe (9 AA 1 min reuse, but with land rate and what not who knows lol but I will time it to land during disc)

Whether you talk sustained or burst beastlord dps isn't nearly what it should be.  I do think burst shows the problem even more because it further illustrates our division of power.  A monk/war/rog/whatever clicks just a disc and basically doubles their dps for the duration.  A beastlord clicks their disc and doubles the melee portion of their dps which is somewhere between 20 and 75(ish)% depending for the duration.  If the fight goes beyond that then we can AA to again double just that portion of our dps for another small period of time, but that's mainly it. 

We don't have an inefficent but fast/chain castable nuke to allow us to mana dump like casters do for "burst" dps.  We have blizzard blast that is chain castable and horribly unuseable for that and the rest of our real nukes are tied to 30 sec refresh times.  We can try to load up our non-resist mod dots and toss those in, but it's still not raising our dps that much.  However, atleast we can potentially raise our short term spell dps some.  We have nothing that will raise our proc or our pets proc dps in the short term.  For some beastlords that's a sizeable % of their damage.  Some would say the DoN spell buffs raise our pets dps in a "burst" type of way, but that could be debated simply because we are using mana that could be spent on nukes/dots to hit the pet with it.  In some cases the buff is a better use in terms of mana to damage and other times it isn't.  Either way the buff is still more a case of spell damage than pet damage.  Also note that the recourse we get to boost our damage doesn't stack with our disc lol and our disc doesn't stack with our AA, etc. 

Beastlords are very mis-understood and I don't think anyone can really debate that.  We are misunderstood by other players all the time (haste me you 55th level bst,  you get innate double attack, you sooo out tank monks, etc).  We are misunderstood by the devs (look at some of our spells and itemization) there is no other way to justify a weapon further into progression that is class only being a dps downgrade besides a sincere misunderstanding of the class.  We are misunderstood by members of our class.  We have beastlords that claim to have done X that they don't and just tons of examples.  It's so funny that in this age of class overlap and blurred lines that sony actually has a fairly unique class on it's hands and we just keep suffering for it.  Almost every bad thing in the game (pet scaling, pet focus, itemization, AA, etc) hurts us, and almost every positive thing in the game only gives us a fraction of it (new spells, pet focus, upgrades, etc). 

The thing we need most or atleast first is some understanding because there is simply no other justifcation for some of the issues we have outside of a sincere lack of understanding for how this class performs and works.

[hakaaba]

I wouldnt be surprised if pallys are even slightly above warriors esp if they get thier anguish pally/sk only weapons with obnoxious ratios that stomp the bst weapon :p

pally - http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=32939
sk - http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=33076
bst - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=47319

and AMEN Tast!

But seriously how can they not understand our situation.  Or what can we do to make them understand.

Maybe if we dramatize it as a short play? Ill try that :p

Man - Oh my! i'm on fire!
Fireman - No youre not
MAn -  See? theres flames burning me
fireman - no way!
Man - No seriously! i have proof
Fireman - Oh ok ill go ahead and put that out
Man - great!
Fireman - *yawn* *taps foot* ...........
(2 hours later)
Fireman - Hmm doing nothing didnt put out the fire?
Skeleton - nope

[Bengali]

"Sustained" dps is overrated, since there are fewer and fewer encounters where you actually need to sustain dps for extended periods of time.  Sure, there are some encounters that are long, but they aren't long because you're sitting there trying to do damage the entire time.  Also, people's concept of it is a bit convoluted.  People don't parse their dps while discing, stop as soon as the disc is over and say, "my burst dps is 800".  They parse for various "fights" which is basically as sustained as anyone needs.  In other words, you only need to sustain your dps long enough to kill whatever mob you're trying to kill, and for all the parses floating around people are at least using numbers from engaging until mob death.  Also, most melee discs have (relatively) short reuse timers of around a half hour or so.  If you can't use them on every boss mob, you can pretty much use them on every *other* boss mob.  All that downtime from distributing loot, rezzing/buffing dead, killing trash, etc. just gives people's discs time to refresh.

Itemization - Zajeer does itemization based on zone/mob/event and a baseline formula, using a tier showing where each class should be in regards to DPS.  He does not take into consideration any discs, only passive abilities, be they innate or AA.

I'm not sure he even does that.  If beastlord passive abilities were taken into account, then we wouldn't have an MPG 2hb that is a dps downgrade.  In fact, if he took passive abilities (including AA) into account, then he probably wouldn't give us a 2hb at all, or if he did, it would have a *better* ratio than similar 2hbs, because we are the only 2hb-capable melee class who doesn't get punishing blade.  Even if the ranger 2hb had the exact same ratio, there would still be a gap between the two classes compared to similar dual wield set ups because of the inexplicable AA disparity, and then when you give the other class an even better ratio it simply widens.