The Beastlords' Den

What's with people know knowing even the most basic things about their class?  I did an LDoN tonight with this Shaman who had no idea what was going on.  First, he wasn't slowing.  I brought it up several times and he kept saying that he was.  I started slowing the mobs myself on incoming to check and they always landing (save the occasional resist) and never being overwritten.  To add to this a +4 INT aug dropped.  He wants to roll against the chanter (only INT caster in group) for it.  We tell him INT is a useless stat for him.  His reply?  WIS and INT are the only stats he can't buff so it's not useless to him.   So I tell him that he is a WIS caster, INT does nothing for him, it would be a waste for him to take the aug and then tell the chanter to just loot the thing.  Shaman throws a fit and quits on the spot.

How these people make it past their newbie zone is beyond me.

On a big server I guess ye can get to 65 just by knowing how to get groups - the treshold to kick people out of their groups is way too high usually, and I've seen perma-afk's and idiots get loads of xp just because they managed to sneak in the adventure/camp before their uselessness manifested itself. People send tells to other people in the group and moan and curse, but they don't disband the moron.

EQ isn't very stupid-friendly, too. If you don't do some research about how things work or ask people it's very easy (but not excusable) to use old spells and generally make a mess of things. Of course, say a year ago EQ was even less stupid-friendly... -_-

There are times, that I wish that in order to progress past level 50, you needed to collect X number of flags that were given from gaining a certain minimum amount of xp in dungeons (lost or otherwise.)  Then, to level past 54 you *had* to have your 6AA, to level past 58 you *had* to have 12AA in archetypes, to pass 60 you *had* to have your 24 in class AAs, and that for each level past 60 you needed 10AA in addition to the level.

Why?  Because people are levelling so damned fast they aren't taking the time to learn their class.  People have a level 65+million AA in one class, and somehow think that makes them an expert in this new class they are playing.  I'm right now torn between complaining about the slower xp in LDoN and praising it.  Fast levelling is the bane of EQ, it makes for stupid players in the high end.  

Or, in order to gain certain levels in certain classes, you have to go and speak to guild trainers in differant places.  These trainers would give you a dialogue explaining your new abilities, and what qualities you should emphasize ("You have done well shaman_03, as you grow, remember that the book learning of intelligence is worthless to you, but instead, focus on developing the spiritual connection you need by seeking out sources of wisdom!")  followed up by questions ("What special quality should you emphasize as you develop?") relating to it.

I get rather tired of level 65 newbies, and more tired of ones in high end guilds with higher end mains who think they know their class in a group by watching how they function in a raid...

One Word.... Ebay...

If you want a place to deal with these guys (I'm gonna insert a shameless plug here)

http://www.rpg-blacklist.com   I wrote this specifically because of an ass like that.    Check it out...

Not necessarily e-bay, some people just don't understand the basics of the game even after of months of playing. However being ignorant is one thing (and easily forgiven as far as im concerned), but not listening to reason is something else entirely.
I used to be in a family-type guild, and the guildleader's daughter had been tempted to play as well even tho she had never before played a RPG of any kind. Last time i saw her shaman was lvl 54. She never slowed mobs and refused to buff anyone but herself. Apparently when she got her first slow it got resisted a few times, so she deemed the spell to be useless. She had never tried it again after that, and couldn't be persuaded to try again, even after explaining that slowing a mob is much more efficient then having to chain heal. She had also given up on buying the Malo spell line upgrades, because it apparently didnt do anything (that is, it didnt do any damage). She wouldn't give any buffs, not even haste because she needed the mana to nuke and dot. Needless to say she also didnt do the canni-dance, because that decreased her hitpoints, which was a Bad Thing (tm).  
Had it been just ignorance i wouldn't have minded, and would have continued to try to help her by explaining things patiently and kindly. However she was was completely unreceptive to any advice anyone would give her, and also a spoiled brat who hogged all the loot without sharing, so i just joined the masses and ignored her completely. She got thru her levels duoing with her boyfriend's monk because no one else would group with her twice

/hugs

this is a subject i could go on for days about. ive played with a group of 5-8 people for literally several years now (some since pre kunark) and daily we're flabergasted at the amount of ignorance out there.

i hate being one of those "back in the days" people, but... back in the days (pre kunark) you HAD to exp in dungeons like ct, solb, lguk or you simply didnt get past level 20 (expect if you were a druid or necro, which is why they got the classic stereotype of being idiots). if you were around back then, and even hilariously enough with the gear nowadays, you'll know that these dungeons were very unforgiving, one mistake, one idiot, one noob and you wiped, plain and simple. you HAD to learn your class, and learn it pretty well, or you simply didnt level. by the simple fact that you were level 50 pre kunark it meant 99% of the time you could be counted on to know your class well.

kunark came out, and alot of this changed. suddenly you could level in danger free outdoor zones easily to level 50. pull more then one? run to zone! that kind of mentality made for the classic karnor's train zone, as people would level up in the exp rich kunark, then have nowhere to go but karnor's, which was half dungeon, and you would often meet people that simply didnt have a clue how to play under pressure. but still, at 55+ or so the easy exp dried up, and you had to go to howling stones, or old sebilis to level up to 60, which again were fairly unforgiving dungeons where you learned your class or were blacklisted (beside many druids or necros that exped solo and slowely to 60 in like skyfire and had the stereotype of incompetent soloers continue :P). the ease was greatly increased to getting to low 50s, but still to get over the hump to 60 chances are if you didnt get the clamps put on you to learn your class pre 55 you sure as heck did 55-60, so you could usually trust that someone level 60 was skilled.

then velious came out, more outdoor zones, better gear to trivialize old dungeons, zones like velks (which i never found challenging in the least even with crappy pvp server gear) to make it so even the alleged dungeons arent all that challenging.  the assumtion that people are probably skilled just because they're max level started to become a dangerous one.

somewhere in here kei was broken and teaching everyone that no matter what level you were max mana regen was the standard.

then luclin... are there even dungeons in luclin...?

PoP was interesting, for the first couple months was pretty challenging, but again outdoor zones where the threat of even one add is minimal. the exp is sickly good and its become so pretty much any tossed together pickup group can survive np. plus graveyards, so now if you are in an incompetent group you dont even have to learn how to cr well. corpse recovery really isnt even a valid term in eq anymore. now, when i see someone that is level 65, there's no way in hell i assume they're the least bit skilled.

its sad really, i loved the pre kunark painfully challenging aspect of eq. it sucked trying to get max level 50, and sucked still trying to get to 50-60 when kunark came out. people learned how to survive under pressure, people learned how to conserve mana, people learned how to use skill to pull singles, or get this cc adds. its simply not the same game, and imo not for the better.

the game is becoming increasingly geared towards casual players (yah yah blah blah 10% of the games content is geared towards raids and you cant join boohoo). maps, compass, spawning right infront of guildleader, spells prememed, hotkeys premade, not having to get gear til what level 10 i think, even from the very beginning eq has been dumbed down for the people that want to play casually, and no offense as i loved diablo series, but for the people that wanted a more diablo type game.  Verant gave zero damn about the people that just wanted to log in, kill stuff effortlessly, and win the game, and i loved it. SoE has tried to make the game more mainstream, more casual player friendly, more child friendly etc and it hurting eq on many levels.

so no, it doesnt surprise me when i come across people that dont have the first clue about their class.  i come across these people every day, the difference is there used to be a sense of challenge and it was expected you had to LEARN aspects of the game, nowadays people dont even expect they have to take the time to learn anything. alot of the eq population are of the "log in, click fest, win game" type of gamestyle and it shows. when you tell a monk nowadays they might have to practice pulling a zone for a few hours to learn spawn points, wanderer routes, mob agro radius, which are casters, respawn time, pulling with sneak and/or throwing etc more often then not they'll tell you to shut up and that they know more then you, then proceed to pull multiple, at which point you can be garunteed half the group doesnt know what to do and at least 2 people start running for the zoneline (when there's an evacer in the group).

im really not all that bitter, i try to just avoid these people in game, but its becoming increasingly difficult to find the skilled and knowledgable players.

oh and btw, sadly enough, most of the ebayed people ive ever met are actually more knowledgable about a class and have researched it or grouped/raided with them alot before deciding they wanted to play that class, you still come across the "my daddy bought this character for me cuz i was a good boy for my 12th birthday", but usually people that buy toons from ebay have taken the time to at least research and learn the class before hand. in fact ive know alot of people to buy a toon on ebay and become alot better then the original :P

bugman,
Couldnt have said it better myself man.

Good post and so true!

Rarely did trains to zone happen in LGuk... most people died before they hit the water, but a few would make it through... and death would lie in there path.

Another thing you did not mention about 'days gone by'....

In days gone by there were fewer people playing EQ. There were fewer level 45-50. Because of this 'small' community of folks people got to know each other. Back in the day you lived and breathed by your reputation. If 3-4 people didnt like you because you were a 'tard' the entire server knew it by the next day and you were essentially 'banned'.... once a bad rep always a bad rep... back in days gone by...

SOOOO much different now...

As I recall, there were a fair number of idiots pre-Kunark as well. The difference was, the playerbase wasn't as sophisticated, so some of he boneheadedness wasn't obvious unless it affected you. Let me tell you, I lost track of the pullers that thought "OOM" meant "Only One More".

Wizards overnuking,  Mages whipping out the Earth pet, people breaking mez, Warriors yelling "HEAL" (told you no pulls)...I remember all of that. Every chanter  I knew had a smartass mez macro, with good reason.

EQ has matured so much that there is only one way to do any given job. After 4 years, we all know what the way is, and we pretty much do it automatically. If the Cleric says "OOM" and the monk says "pulling", 5 people yell "dude, healer LOM, WTF are you doing!?".

Back in the day, that was a RARE question.  I can't tell you how many times I got mana for a heal right before the tank would have died. And sometimes, not even then.  :P

Quote from: katahnThere are times, that I wish that in order to progress past level 50, you needed to collect X number of flags that were given from gaining a certain minimum amount of xp in dungeons (lost or otherwise.)  Then, to level past 54 you *had* to have your 6AA, to level past 58 you *had* to have 12AA in archetypes, to pass 60 you *had* to have your 24 in class AAs, and that for each level past 60 you needed 10AA in addition to the level.

Quote

Well, the flaw here is, sitting at a level grinding AA doesn't make you a single bit smarter.  Tell me, do you think your skills would improve chain-pulling in Dreadlands from one level to the next? If not (and i'll bet you don't), when how can you say anything is learned from repeating the procedure 6, 12 times?

And since when are dungeons hard? What, do you find Sity of Mist challenging? Lower Guk is a peice of cake these days. Kaesora's easy, but just annoying. Kurn's? Paludal? Grieg's is pretty interesting, i'll grant. But dungeon play doesn't mean squat.

QuoteWhy?  Because people are levelling so damned fast they aren't taking the time to learn their class.  People have a level 65+million AA in one class, and somehow think that makes them an expert in this new class they are playing.  I'm right now torn between complaining about the slower xp in LDoN and praising it.  Fast levelling is the bane of EQ, it makes for stupid players in the high end.

People are just inherently stupid. Speed of leveling has nothing to do with it. I played a shamuid (Shaman in leather with a book in one hand who pretended to be a cleric) up until level 53, then I zoomed to 63 in PoP and consider myself a very damn good Shaman player (Aside from the fact i'm fed up with the class). This is because I learn quickly and am very adaptable. Has nothing to do with spending a month at level 45 in Trakanon's Teeth

Dammit, I want an edit button! Gotta start using preview more often, I guess.

Playing at being pirates on the Lake Rathe boats with complete strangers as a lv20ish>>> all.

With that interraction came knowledge about other classes, and indeed your own - as well as pulling techniques, mobs, agro, tradeskilling etc etc etc.

Because nobody 'plays pirates' or really interracts that much anymore, is it any wonder Johnny Dingalot's not as clued up as you would expect ?

QuoteAnd since when are dungeons hard? What, do you find Sity of Mist challenging? Lower Guk is a peice of cake these days. Kaesora's easy, but just annoying. Kurn's? Paludal? Grieg's is pretty interesting, i'll grant. But dungeon play doesn't mean squat.

you're right, most dungeons arent challenging anymore, and thats the point. with so many easily pulled and trainable outdoor zones people stopped going to the challenging dungeons, and so they stopped making them.

one of the last ones was when they revamped CT (yes outdoor but very dungeon styled), i remember forever after the revamp i would go with friends (long pre pop) and we would sometimes wipe, but usually were able to do what we wanted. we lived there, and most of the times if another group came in to exp or farm some gear they would end up wiping, and then not able to get corpses, and we would end up helping them.

and now they pushed ldon and some of the god zones on people as really the only way to do certain things, which i think is great, but look at the rash of "omg people are retarded" type posts centering around ldon.  a good amount of the ldon pickup groups ive ever been in there's been someone so incredibly ignorant to the ways of dungeon style spawns and multiple pulls that ive vowed never to do pickup groups again.

and no, you're right, its not just a dungeon thing, ive been in countless groups in zones like plane of valor killing golems when the puller says 2 inc and the cleric says to train to zone (several times this has happened, no joke). or bot where a group will train from tables if a multiple pull instead of letting me and pet offtank adds after telling them i will if multiple pulls.

so no, you're right, dungeons dont mean "squat" anymore, which is precisely my point. they *used* to mean alot to development of skill and ability to perform under pressure. and nowadays with ldon and some god zones (though ldon is cake and some god instanced dungeons are too), with the reintroduction of even slightly challenging dungeon style zones (lots of spawns, multiple pulls, cant always see whats around the corner), you see more and more instances of people that have no damn clue how to play thier classes under pressure and effectively.

ive been in bot or pov pickup groups where a multiple pull was declared inc and before we even tried people were yelling to run to zone or evac, seriously many times ive seen this happen. people that learned their class in the old days of having to exp in old ct, lguk or solb would know this wasnt always an option and try to actually kill the pull, which nowadays anything more then easy single pulls is unacceptable to people cuz they simply often times cant handle it.

trust me, i wish it wasnt true, but eq is fast becoming a diablo style game where your pressence alone is usually enough to win... that is until you wipe some group by being an idiot and get a rant dedicated to you :P

to some degree that lack of danger your talking about has more to do with better pulling and better means of pulling.   lulling wasnt something that was used much back when your talking about, monks were the pull gods.

as for the ct revamp...i hate that zone with a passion.  i have had too many instances of mobs agroing through walls, and sometime floors and bringing thier own little trains to your group, and im not talkin about 2 or 3 lizards, tends to be more like 10.  mobs falling through walls has also been a problem at times. its just not a well designed zone.   if the mechanics of the game worked better in ct it would be an alright spot to hang still

as for not handling multi pulls, those people are just retards.  there is a warrior in my guild that  with pick ups on regular ldons will pull 3 on the first pull to see if the group is worth keeping,they wipe, he leaves

LDoN started out as having the pickup groups from hell.

In my experience though, most of the people who truly suck have gone back to Valor/BoT, because they don't win enough in LDoN (even normal) to make it worth their while.  I've had a single idiot in an LDoN recently, but it's been a long time since I had a group full of them.  In PoV/BoT they can kill one mob an hour if they so feel like it and still make progress.

Bugman:  One thing I disagree with in your statement, is about how playing in Lower Guk and Solusek B made players "good" back in the day.  This would be true of the first wavers...I remember being in Lower Guk with just me and my group.  Lower Guk was brutal at that stage.

Later on, as more and more people pushed to 35,40,45+...those dungeons lost all requirement of skill.  You could walk from zone in of Lower Guk all the way to the Ghoul Lord without ever seeing a monster alive.  During those days you learned pretty much nothing save don't go near the Greater Ice Bone Skeletons, as they were generally the last thing in the whole dead side to be killed.

What truly struck me as funny about all that is we'd farmed all we wanted out of dead side LG before the masses showed up, so we switched to live side.  There'd be 120 people in Lower Guk, and my group of 6 plus perhaps one more would be on live side, while 108 people would be fighting over dead side spawns.  Never really did understand why people were so averse to killing live frogs.

I need to take a moment with the comments about the game being made easier for "casual" players and that the recent changes in newbie friendliness are synonymous with casual friendliness.  I am not a newbie, but I am definitely a casual player these days.  Some nights I don't play, some I play for a couple hours maybe (and by couple. I mean 2). while others I might get 3-4 hours in.  Several factors as to why, none of them really relevant to this discussion.

My issue is that there is often this unspoken assumption that casual players are somehow idiots who need and want content spoonfed to them, who can't handle challenges, and want everything easy.  This is not the case.  Casual players such as myself want a challenging game, but one that can be fairly reasonably broken down into 2-3 hour blocks of time.  We want to be able to experience a persistent online fantasy world with thousands of other people, and have challenging and exciting adventures, not spend that entire time LFG or if it happens to be close to quitting time with work early the next day, don't want to have to contend with a corpse run that could take additional hours.

Making the game more user friendly, in its interface and in removing pointless timesinks, is not the same as making the game challenges easier.  If anything, I wish the game could be made more challenging, with appropriately scaled rewards, and more options for development and making a character unique.  There are a lot of little ways the game is being made more friendly in its interface and in the playing, wihch is good, and then a lot of ways in which game play itself is too fast and easy, which is bad.  I applaud the popularity of LDoN with 20-50 characters as it seems to teaching folks how to handle dungeons, how to work in a group under pressure, and how to try and get through a bad pull rather than run because of the negative impact that can have on the timer.

Kathan, I agree with you.
I play less than you (MAX of 2 hours a night) and just can't stand spending half that time LFG or traveling.
I remember the good old days. I can remember logging on and planing my night of play. Tonight, run from Quenos, to High Hold Keep. If no CR's are needed, continue to Freeport. Log off.
The timesinks were incredible. Taking the boat from ANWHERE could just about kill the entire days time I had to play. (Wonder why I'm only LVL 45?). I have recently begun to concentrate on Leveling, and gone from Level 17 to 45 in about 8 months. MONTHS, not days.
 The dedicated player today moves up in level so fast, the time to get to know other classes, or players, is limited.So I DO think players are less knowledgable overall, but that the player is in overall controll of how they play. Blindly Pulling and ignorring OOC from the healer is stupid at level 10, as well as at level 65.  
LDoN has been a mixed bag of experience for me. I get some good groups, and some bad groups. I revel in the good, and try VERY hard to remember the names of the players in those. In the bad ones, i try to rememember the IDIOTS, and forgive the mistakes of the inexperienced. The idiots I will not group with again, the inexperienced I try to teach what I can. Ultimatly, the quality of the players is at least partially in our own control. If you automatically ignore someone who makes mistakes, they will never get better.  Try to teach, without rancor.

People need to be really careful when finding a scapegoat for poor players. It has nothing to do with the amount of time a person plays, as it does how well a person learns.

Poorly written comments targeted at casual players like

Quoteyah yah blah blah 10% of the games content is geared towards raids and you cant join boohoo

Doesn't make a point other than you acting like a jerk towards those who don't invest hours on end in EQ.

I played also from the Pre Kunark days and there were a lot of idiots back then too. The only difference between then and now is that there are lot more people in EverQuest and with a lot more people comes a lot more poor players.

There were stupid level 50 players before Kunark, their were stupid level 60 players during Kunark. Nothing there has changed. But trying to place blame of poor players on the game being more and more geared to balance for the casual and hardcore player is just pathetic. There is a lot involved in learning this game, and EQ always had a high learning curve, the tutorial has always been subpar, and learning EQ can take longer than most anyone could expect for a game.

There will always be players that are worse than you, and there are players that will always be better than you, but whining everytime we run into a poor player does nothing to improve the situation. Ya, it gets frustrating, but bad players have been complained about for years now and has anything changed?

You have a few choices really, avoid the players that need more time to learn the game and their class, or help them get better. There is a lot of trial and error that goes into learning this game, and you had to do it once before too. And there are a lot of poor players out there trying to learn to get better, they have the potential to do so, but bitching about it everytime they make a mistake only makes them pissed off poor players that now have even less concentration on doing the job they're supposed to be.

Quote from: CoprolithNot necessarily e-bay, some people just don't understand the basics of the game even after of months of playing. However being ignorant is one thing (and easily forgiven as far as im concerned), but not listening to reason is something else entirely...

Completely agree, I don't mind people who don't know something about the game.  I learn new things in EQ quite often still, especially about other classes.  The problem is people who are unwilling to try/learn new things.  My main is a druid and I have been in so many groups with people who don't understand off-rooting or refuse to believe it is viable as CC.  Granted, I prefer an enchanter or bard anyday, but a good root does just fine and my druid has zero problems keeping a mob off-rooted as long as she has mana.  I have many other similar instances of people unwilling to try something new or learn somthing new.

The other problem is people who just aren't paying enough attention.  Maybe they are watching TV, watching their kids, spacing out, too tired or whatever, but they are just not with it enough.

And yeah, a lot of people put up with way too much crap from group members.  People going stealth-afk all the time with no explanation, not doing their job, refusing to do things that benefit the group, etc. are going to get kicked from my groups pretty fast after a warning.  And yes, in LDoNs you really notice when people don't know what they are doing.  The difference of a group of 6 good players vs. a group with 5 good and 1 bad is even painfully noticable.

hah knew i shouldnt have mentioned anything using the buz words "casual player"... the casual militia is after me now!

i have no problems with people that cant play alot, and am infact myself becoming increasingly more of a casual players, but dont try to pretend that the game isnt catering to casual players more and more (not saying its all a bad thing) and dont try to ignore the fact that alot of the things they do to make the game easier and faster make alot of the eq population less knowledgable.

the game is increasingly being tuned directly to the diablo style players, log in, slaughter stuff, dont think too much, dont have all that hard of a time getting to and from where you wanna go, dont waste alot of time when you die, kill stuff chain pulling singles with little or no risk, log out having accomplished alot and having fun.

this is all a good thing, up until you're on a raid or a high pressure group with someone and they suddenly dont have a clue other then how to log on and win everything with little effort.

in no way did i intend to say that being a casual player makes you an idiot, all im saying is the game is becoming more and more tuned towards casual players and its causing extra amounts of idiots, just my opinion though.

Quote
the game is increasingly being tuned directly to the diablo style players, log in, slaughter stuff, dont think too much, dont have all that hard of a time getting to and from where you wanna go, dont waste alot of time when you die, kill stuff chain pulling singles with little or no risk, log out having accomplished alot and having fun.

I actually agree that the pace of the game has somewhat deteriorated the skills of the players. But it's not just the "casual" changes, both casual and hardcore people display these traits. Part of the problem is that the game has become all about the end-game. Get to 65 ASAP. Don't waste your time grouping, raid, raid. More HP, MORE. The carrots used to be a incentive to play, but the carrots have bcome the entire game.

Say you're in my guild (we're tiny), you play 12+ hours a day, and you want to join a Time guild. Well, you need to be Ele flagged. How do you do this? Easy. Join a raid that's getting a flag you need. Join another. Keep doing that, BAM, welcome to PotimeA.

And what did you learn on the way? Well, for MB someone told you to stand in a corner, and run to here at this signal, and then run to here, and then hit stuff. Don't let this reach that. Or for Grummus, someone told you that you'd be afflicted with such-and-such AE's at a certain time, which have certain effects. To counter this, pop Paragon when I say so, etc.

The first people through took WEEKS learning each encounter, now you can get 3-4 flags in a DAY.

Just once it would be fun to see a pickup raid where the leader said "Welcome to Xanamech. You have to kill him. Figure it out". But that won't happen. Not on a raid, not in a group. People don't experiment anymore, because experimentation is inefficient, it delays whatever big score you seek (levels/AA's/gear).

Grummus took me, from decision to flag, less than 2 hours. Frankly, I just did it for the free AA. I'd prefer to crawl in Hate's Fury, but I won't get 65/300/flagged that way, crawling dungeons keeps me a "noob". I've been asked why I was "wasting time" in OS. Sheesh.

People don't really play the game anymore, because the carrots at the end are just too juicy.

In my experience, a player who mainly solos will have some of the problems people mention above. For example, the Shaman may have been slowing the mob but didn't do a hotkey that says so. I am a soloer by nature and haven't hotkeyed any spells. When I am asked to slow in an LoDN Adventure no one would know if I was slowing. Since I never made a Hotkey for a spell I was clueless how to let them know I was doing it. Also, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up. While INT for a lvl 65 Shammy may be a waste, on lower level Shammy, like all character classes, you still want that extra-INT to skill up quicker. When the player says they were slowing the MoB I would have asked if they hotkeyed it properly or if they were even working (mine never work on LoDN - all immune to mine).

Quote from: KinashAlso, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up.

Whichever is higher, WIS or INT gives you the same help with skillups, so for all WIS casters INT is essentially worthless and vice-versa unless you just like seeing all the number maxed :)

I agree that the game is becoming more trivial, and geared towards a less time consuming environment. A lot of this contributes to poor players. My only gripe was saying that it was casual "players".

Now I am by no means a hardcore player anymore, I used to be, but I ended that and moved servers. It was too much like work to log in each night. Now I play more than casually and go for marathon hours on the weekend, but not everyday like before. Personally there are a few things that went in that seemed to really contribute to the high end n00b population.

One of them being KEI and Virtue. These two spells have generated more PL'ed 65 n00bs than anything else i've seen. I think they are a valuable part of the game, but rather than giving them the Kunark spell level cap they should have made another.

Just like you have to be 45 to recieve Kunark 51+ spells benefits. You should have to be 55 to recieve PoP 61+ spells.

The nexus first helped improve travel immensely, now how often do you see it used, since the nexus trivialized travel all together. Traveling and learning how to cross dangerous zones was part of the game. When's the last time you heard of someone having to cross Kithicor at night?

I personally think the prememmed spells and premade hot buttons is a good idea, so people at least can get used to what they are and know what to expect, but putting you in front of you guild leader, and maxing you sense heading skill 200 off the bat was just assnine.

There are so many changes that have made learning the game trivial, and this is good up until a point, but as of now they've gone overboard on making it easy, and the only goal left in game now is really to get 65, get AA's, get more gear. There is no accomplishment in learning anymore, because they have already done it all for you.

Quote from: KuriosityWhen's the last time you heard of someone having to cross Kithicor at night?

My first character, a Ranger (of course) crossed Kithicor at night once.  Or tried to; he died pretty fast.  I refused to use the PoK book to get to Qeynos without having made the attempt on foot first.  Amazingly enough, that was the only place I died on my trek, although I was level 15 with Camoflage.  It dropped in High Hold Pass but I was able to zone there.  Even though it was interesting, that half hour or so run across the Karanas (hadn't begged a SoW from anyone) pretty much dampened my enthusiasm for exploring in that way, especially because all the zones were so empty.

As many people have said or implied, it all depends on what you bring to the game.  My Beastlord is basically my second character; she was born on November 5 of last year and I just dinged 62 this weekend.  Not the fastest progression nowadays, but compared to how I hear it used to be, this is pretty phenomenal.  I was taught well, by a friend who wanted to make sure I wasn't dead weight in a group (and I wasn't PLed, he started a new character to play with me), I observed how other people played (although I rarely saw other BSTs in action), and I frequented (and still do) messageboards and information websites in order to learn all I can.  This is because I care about making my group a good one, and having fun with it.  If the person doesn't care, then they won't learn how to play well, it's as simple as that.  The reverse is not necessarily true...someone can care but still not grasp how to play well.  As has been pointed out, you can usually tell the difference between these two kinds of people, and know which ones to avoid and which ones to help.

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

I just wanted to make a comment regarding hotkeys for slow.  I never hotkey that a mob is slowed in a group.  If that is my job, then just assume the mob is slowed, why should someone just keep spamming all the time?  Now if there are two slowers in the group, then I can see the reason, and I do have a hotkey for those instances.

Quote from: quinalla

Quote from: KinashAlso, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up.

Whichever is higher, WIS or INT gives you the same help with skillups, so for all WIS casters INT is essentially worthless and vice-versa unless you just like seeing all the number maxed :)

See... that is something I didn't know! All the SOE sites and the Prima Guides they sell say that INT is the sole factor for skill-ups and that WIS or INT is for Mana only. That is the problem that the documentation is rife with errors! I was always looking for INT items for my BST to get skill-ups at lower levels!  :(

INT used to be the only stat that controlled skillups (except for the melee ones) that's why it's in the documentation (which you're right, is rife with errors and mostly useless).  At some point they changed it to be WIS or INT I guess because they felt that the INT casters had an unfair advantage (in that they had one less stat they needed to raise than the WIS casters).

Quote from: HrannAt some point they changed it to be WIS or INT

I think it was sometime after the release of Kunark. I first got EQ then, and got the Ruins of Kunark guide. It says INT for skill ups. When Luclin came out, I never looked for INT, just WIS, so I must have learned that in the meantime. And the Luclin guide I have says INT or WIS, whichever is higher.

I never hotkey spells. I don't like the spam. I watch the health meters, and the MOB, and usually know if the slow landed. I have learned to recognise when my Yekan's Quickening spell drops, just by how long it takes the group to kill mobs.

With time, you learn. I think the biggest issue in the quick leveling is that there is no substitute for experience. The massive time needed to level when the game first came out was excessive, but I think the correction was too much, and now it's too fast. We should not go back to the days of Level 10 in 6 months, but it should be slowed down a bit.

I think they had the right idea with the initial level limit on use of the Nexus. Pre Level 20 players have no need to travel to other newbie zones.

I generally do not group with anyone outside of my guild, which are no were near uber but just a bunch of old friends that have been guilded on and off from original game til now.  I don't even like grouping with PMs or newer members unless they are old school players.  I don't Pick Up group with anyone who started after Kunark was released generally.  I hate to say it, but the only good BSTs i know are ones who were melee classes for years before Luclin even came out.  Most int casters were/are newb idiots back in the day so i hold to that still (except enchanters, they were generally knowledgable/skilled or they died, alot, and rerolled necros)  Druids also were pretty retarded.

Today its much harder to weed out idiots.  Like Paladin/SKs.  I don't group with em unless i recognize their name from Kunark.  Sorry unless you learned your class from earning the right to a group back when you sucked, you probably just PLed one during PoP when they became exp group gods.  Mages? wizards?  you were all idiots back in the day, well i'm assuming you were cus i never saw you in my group, too busy soloing in OOT, and if i did see you in a group you probably overnuked and died or trained us or something equally retarded.  So same principle stands, you get summoned more than once then you don't get grouped in the future.  I still don't see necros LFG so i'll keep assuming they are antisocial newbs.  Bards are even easier.  I keep a list.  Theres a grand total of 5 good bards on my server, if you aren't on the list, you are probably a moron.  Too bad those 5 good bards are never LFG cus they maxxed their GoD AAs swarm kiting 2 weeks ago.  Warriors and clerics i've been grouping with since EQ came out so i've a pretty good idea who the idiots are.  Really good rangers are also rare, most are the alt of some Necro who wants to group but already has a bad rep.  Old school enchanters are even rarer, since there was only like 5 enchanters on my entire server before mez became the main stream common tactic.  Basically nowadays enchanters better be doing more than the VoQ/VQ bot in the corner or they don't get grouped.  i'll give you a hint, starts with Command, ends with Of Druzzil.  get that DC out of here, the bot can DC.  Shamans?  Monks?  not sure if its universal or just my server specifically, but Shamans and Monks were typically the ones figuring out raid strats, pull starts, etc and starting the uber guilds back When Fear, sky, and Hate was the end game content.  If you were skilled/knowledgable enough to be soloing Juggs when kunark came out then you are alright in my book as a shaman.  Same thing goes to monks pulling hate back with my rogue scouting for em.  ahh Rogues, my old main from release until beginning of Luclin...it's kinda hard to figure out the tards with SoS.  Here's a hint, back in the day that was the difference between good rogues and bad ones.  I was CRing shit like 4D and deep Chardok past see invis mobs without no SoS, no Escape.  get that shit out of here and we might be able to tell the diff tween the two.


yes this post is just in jest, i'm only like, maybe 80% serious :P

Quoteyes this post is just in jest, i'm only like, maybe 80% serious

damn... i was thinking i finally found a like minded individual  :cry:

Sigh, this sounds just too familiar, Xuthaz. I love the people who come up to me and tell me they are knowledged players because they started EQ six months ago  :shock:
Overall i prefer playing with the old farts from my guild - from pre-Kunark era. Most of them still play the some character they had back then, like i played my chanter untill Luclin (for ubvious reasons  :P )

We have a 60+ paladin in our guild that I coined a phrase, "Pop-n00b".  Cause she is.  

Her son got her playing EQ.  Her son told her what he thought she needed to know, she's never looked up anything, she has no grasp of anything outside of LDON.

We were gearing up for our first guild only try at HoT the other night.  Raid leader designates her SA.  She says in raid chat, "What does SA mean?"  *bang head on keyboard*

Then the plate bp drops in HoT.  She wins.  She complains in guildchat and that it isn't any good, cause "I wrote down my stats and put it on, and none of my stats went up."  *bang head on keyboard again*  My wonderful husband takes an *hour* out of his play time to patiently explain faction, Velious faction quests, etc, to her.

*sighs* she's a *nice* lady, always trying, but doesn't *know* anything about eq.

Quote from: KinashSee... that is something I didn't know! All the SOE sites and the Prima Guides they sell say that INT is the sole factor for skill-ups and that WIS or INT is for Mana only. That is the problem that the documentation is rife with errors! I was always looking for INT items for my BST to get skill-ups at lower levels!  :(

Yup, lots of misinformation out there to be sure.  I found out about the wis thing from eqtraders soon after I started playing.  Most of the message boards (recent posts of course) are the best places to get good information, but even they have some errors.  Another problem is SoE and Verant before them does not release much information on any game mechanics and what they do release is sometimes incorrect/misleading or outdated information is still around.

As for calling slows, depends on the mob and the group.  Sometimes it is important for the healer to know the mob is slowed, but I don't think it is something you have to call out all the time, every time.

QuoteWe were gearing up for our first guild only try at HoT the other night. Raid leader designates her SA. She says in raid chat, "What does SA mean?" *bang head on keyboard*

Then the plate bp drops in HoT. She wins. She complains in guildchat and that it isn't any good, cause "I wrote down my stats and put it on, and none of my stats went up." *bang head on keyboard again* My wonderful husband takes an *hour* out of his play time to patiently explain faction, Velious faction quests, etc, to her.

*sighs* she's a *nice* lady, always trying, but doesn't *know* anything about eq.

Perhaps you should consider the fact that to that point, she had never been on a Raid before (What's SA) and noone had taken the time to explain faction to her. There is a lot to be said about learning the game IN GAME. I have an aversion to learning everything about how to play from guides and websites. Thats part of the problem. People spend time reading guides, and lurking the boards, and then think they know everything about playing the game.
THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE!
Part of that experience is learning from other players IN GAME. I salute your husband for taking the massive *hour* out of his time to teach her, but thats what needs to be done to get players who know how to play.

QuoteThere are so many changes that have made learning the game trivial,

I think the proliferation of written guides and class boards like ours has made us too dependent on them. I see a lot of posts griping about having to teach someone how to play their char. So, tell me something. When EQ first hit the shelves, how did anyone learn how to play? How did anyone in the first 2 years learn how to play their chars, or what to do, or how to do it? We learned by "/ooc Hey, how do I get to Freeport from here?", and getting 12 or 15 people answering and giving directions. Thats how I learned.
I will risk the IRE of many of you, but I have no idea what SA means. I've never been on a raid, and groups consist of people about my level who also have never been on a raid. I don't play enough, or consistantly enough to be in a raiding guild, so I may NEVER go on a raid. I've been playing since just after Kunark came out, and Kunnar was born on Feburary 28, 2002. Some of you will recognize me as a frequent poster here. I read, research, and play. I still have a lot to learn.
Instead of berating those who need to learn more, teach. If not, then you are part of the problem.

Quote
When EQ first hit the shelves, how did anyone learn how to play?

By making mistakes :). I remember by first time in a CH rot, on Ixblat.  My hands were shaking. The tank caught a bad spike, but I was SO BUSY COUNTING that the cleric after me had to cast early.

Raidleader shouts, "Clerics PAY ATTENTION"  :oops:  I'm still embarassed, years later.

QuoteRaidleader shouts, "Clerics PAY ATTENTION"  I'm still embarassed, years later.

EXACTLY! You learned IN GAME, not from a book or webpage, and it made you a better player.

SA = Secondary Assist (as opposed to Main Assist)

I like when people ask questions, and I don't mind teaching people.  As long as they pay attention to the answers and are interested in learning (some people will just ignore you and just keeping doingthe wrong thing, no matter what everyone says).

QuoteSA = Secondary Assist (as opposed to Main Assist)

Thanks, Hrann.
I don't think I've ever been in a group big enough to need to designate a SA. The closest I ever came was a 6BL group in OT. No MA, no SA, one guy pulled, and we all just jumped in and killed whatever showed up.

WOOT!

Before I went on my first raid, I *looked it up* on the net.   I actually contacted the raid leader a day ahead of time, and asked for a name of a person who I could ask questions.  When I got assigned a group, I told my group leader it was my first raid.  This isn't just a random person, guys, this is a *guildie*.  A very very sweet lady who has managed to ding 62 without gaining a shred of knowledge of EQ beyond what can be learned in LDON.

And as far as my husband taking an whole hour out of his time to explain the quests:
"You have to go to kael and kill giants in order to get your faction up to do the quest."
"But I've been to Kael"
"Yes, I know, but one trip to Kael won't be enough to get your faction up enough."
"We went to Kael last week."
"Yes, I know, but you need to kill giants for faction."
"Oh, we killed lots of giants last week!"

Did a LDoN pickup group last night with my 38 Cleric and what a pleasure it was...
I was group leader (doing LS points) and I designated the Berz as Main Assist and the other two melee actually listened to me and assist the Berz during the entire Dungeon. I rarely had to heal anyone but the Berz. And the other two didn't attack anything, that the Berz didn't have targetted.
The Enc did a great job at mezzing and crowd control and the Berz was a great puller.
We collected 27/28 items with 55 minutes to go, so we held off and cleared the entire dungeon, before collecting the 28th item and winning.
Was great to group with experienced players who knew the basics of grouping and were willing to follow simple orders/requests from the group leader.

I've been in every kind of guild from small fam to high end uber and nobody on my server uses the terms MA or SA.  We have Main tanks (MT) and Secondary Tanks(ST), and sometimes 3rd and 4th and 5th tanks hehe, but we never delegate anyone as the Main Assist.  assist is always the MT or if trash needs to be cleared while the MT is tanking something, the ST.

Well, terms and abbreviations differ from server to server and from guild to guild. We use both MA/SA and MT/ST, it's just the same thing.

Quote from: bugman
the game is increasingly being tuned directly to the diablo style players, log in, slaughter stuff, dont think too much, dont have all that hard of a time getting to and from where you wanna go, dont waste alot of time when you die, kill stuff chain pulling singles with little or no risk,

Hah, you didn't pull singles in Diablo.

Quotelog out having accomplished alot and having fun..

Heaven forbid :roll:

We use both MT and MA, sometimes interchangeably, but they really are different jobs.  On a very rare occasion those two jobs might even belong to different people.

Quote
We use both MT and MA, sometimes interchangeably, but they really are different jobs.

Aye. When the chanter has 6 mobs mezzed, and he's saying "bloodbone next", he's effectively the Main Assist. A Main Tank can take the hits, a Main Assist knows to kill Valourous Spirits (partially slowable) before Valorium Guardians (fully slowable).

Exactly, often a tank is assigned as MT but another one calls Assist, so he is MA. We use a tankorder most of the time that can have up to 6 tanks on it, sometimes we use 2 tankorders like in phase3 where knights tank trash and warriors tank nameds.