How do these people not know?

[Phanq]

What's with people know knowing even the most basic things about their class?  I did an LDoN tonight with this Shaman who had no idea what was going on.  First, he wasn't slowing.  I brought it up several times and he kept saying that he was.  I started slowing the mobs myself on incoming to check and they always landing (save the occasional resist) and never being overwritten.  To add to this a +4 INT aug dropped.  He wants to roll against the chanter (only INT caster in group) for it.  We tell him INT is a useless stat for him.  His reply?  WIS and INT are the only stats he can't buff so it's not useless to him.   So I tell him that he is a WIS caster, INT does nothing for him, it would be a waste for him to take the aug and then tell the chanter to just loot the thing.  Shaman throws a fit and quits on the spot.

How these people make it past their newbie zone is beyond me.

[Argach]

On a big server I guess ye can get to 65 just by knowing how to get groups - the treshold to kick people out of their groups is way too high usually, and I've seen perma-afk's and idiots get loads of xp just because they managed to sneak in the adventure/camp before their uselessness manifested itself. People send tells to other people in the group and moan and curse, but they don't disband the moron.

EQ isn't very stupid-friendly, too. If you don't do some research about how things work or ask people it's very easy (but not excusable) to use old spells and generally make a mess of things. Of course, say a year ago EQ was even less stupid-friendly... -_-

[katahn]

There are times, that I wish that in order to progress past level 50, you needed to collect X number of flags that were given from gaining a certain minimum amount of xp in dungeons (lost or otherwise.)  Then, to level past 54 you *had* to have your 6AA, to level past 58 you *had* to have 12AA in archetypes, to pass 60 you *had* to have your 24 in class AAs, and that for each level past 60 you needed 10AA in addition to the level.

Why?  Because people are levelling so damned fast they aren't taking the time to learn their class.  People have a level 65+million AA in one class, and somehow think that makes them an expert in this new class they are playing.  I'm right now torn between complaining about the slower xp in LDoN and praising it.  Fast levelling is the bane of EQ, it makes for stupid players in the high end.  

Or, in order to gain certain levels in certain classes, you have to go and speak to guild trainers in differant places.  These trainers would give you a dialogue explaining your new abilities, and what qualities you should emphasize ("You have done well shaman_03, as you grow, remember that the book learning of intelligence is worthless to you, but instead, focus on developing the spiritual connection you need by seeking out sources of wisdom!")  followed up by questions ("What special quality should you emphasize as you develop?") relating to it.

I get rather tired of level 65 newbies, and more tired of ones in high end guilds with higher end mains who think they know their class in a group by watching how they function in a raid...

[queeg reddwarf]

One Word.... Ebay...

If you want a place to deal with these guys (I'm gonna insert a shameless plug here)

http://www.rpg-blacklist.com   I wrote this specifically because of an ass like that.    Check it out...

[Coprolith]

Not necessarily e-bay, some people just don't understand the basics of the game even after of months of playing. However being ignorant is one thing (and easily forgiven as far as im concerned), but not listening to reason is something else entirely.
I used to be in a family-type guild, and the guildleader's daughter had been tempted to play as well even tho she had never before played a RPG of any kind. Last time i saw her shaman was lvl 54. She never slowed mobs and refused to buff anyone but herself. Apparently when she got her first slow it got resisted a few times, so she deemed the spell to be useless. She had never tried it again after that, and couldn't be persuaded to try again, even after explaining that slowing a mob is much more efficient then having to chain heal. She had also given up on buying the Malo spell line upgrades, because it apparently didnt do anything (that is, it didnt do any damage). She wouldn't give any buffs, not even haste because she needed the mana to nuke and dot. Needless to say she also didnt do the canni-dance, because that decreased her hitpoints, which was a Bad Thing (tm).  
Had it been just ignorance i wouldn't have minded, and would have continued to try to help her by explaining things patiently and kindly. However she was was completely unreceptive to any advice anyone would give her, and also a spoiled brat who hogged all the loot without sharing, so i just joined the masses and ignored her completely. She got thru her levels duoing with her boyfriend's monk because no one else would group with her twice

/hugs

[bugman]

this is a subject i could go on for days about. ive played with a group of 5-8 people for literally several years now (some since pre kunark) and daily we're flabergasted at the amount of ignorance out there.

i hate being one of those "back in the days" people, but... back in the days (pre kunark) you HAD to exp in dungeons like ct, solb, lguk or you simply didnt get past level 20 (expect if you were a druid or necro, which is why they got the classic stereotype of being idiots). if you were around back then, and even hilariously enough with the gear nowadays, you'll know that these dungeons were very unforgiving, one mistake, one idiot, one noob and you wiped, plain and simple. you HAD to learn your class, and learn it pretty well, or you simply didnt level. by the simple fact that you were level 50 pre kunark it meant 99% of the time you could be counted on to know your class well.

kunark came out, and alot of this changed. suddenly you could level in danger free outdoor zones easily to level 50. pull more then one? run to zone! that kind of mentality made for the classic karnor's train zone, as people would level up in the exp rich kunark, then have nowhere to go but karnor's, which was half dungeon, and you would often meet people that simply didnt have a clue how to play under pressure. but still, at 55+ or so the easy exp dried up, and you had to go to howling stones, or old sebilis to level up to 60, which again were fairly unforgiving dungeons where you learned your class or were blacklisted (beside many druids or necros that exped solo and slowely to 60 in like skyfire and had the stereotype of incompetent soloers continue :P). the ease was greatly increased to getting to low 50s, but still to get over the hump to 60 chances are if you didnt get the clamps put on you to learn your class pre 55 you sure as heck did 55-60, so you could usually trust that someone level 60 was skilled.

then velious came out, more outdoor zones, better gear to trivialize old dungeons, zones like velks (which i never found challenging in the least even with crappy pvp server gear) to make it so even the alleged dungeons arent all that challenging.  the assumtion that people are probably skilled just because they're max level started to become a dangerous one.

somewhere in here kei was broken and teaching everyone that no matter what level you were max mana regen was the standard.

then luclin... are there even dungeons in luclin...?

PoP was interesting, for the first couple months was pretty challenging, but again outdoor zones where the threat of even one add is minimal. the exp is sickly good and its become so pretty much any tossed together pickup group can survive np. plus graveyards, so now if you are in an incompetent group you dont even have to learn how to cr well. corpse recovery really isnt even a valid term in eq anymore. now, when i see someone that is level 65, there's no way in hell i assume they're the least bit skilled.

its sad really, i loved the pre kunark painfully challenging aspect of eq. it sucked trying to get max level 50, and sucked still trying to get to 50-60 when kunark came out. people learned how to survive under pressure, people learned how to conserve mana, people learned how to use skill to pull singles, or get this cc adds. its simply not the same game, and imo not for the better.

the game is becoming increasingly geared towards casual players (yah yah blah blah 10% of the games content is geared towards raids and you cant join boohoo). maps, compass, spawning right infront of guildleader, spells prememed, hotkeys premade, not having to get gear til what level 10 i think, even from the very beginning eq has been dumbed down for the people that want to play casually, and no offense as i loved diablo series, but for the people that wanted a more diablo type game.  Verant gave zero damn about the people that just wanted to log in, kill stuff effortlessly, and win the game, and i loved it. SoE has tried to make the game more mainstream, more casual player friendly, more child friendly etc and it hurting eq on many levels.

so no, it doesnt surprise me when i come across people that dont have the first clue about their class.  i come across these people every day, the difference is there used to be a sense of challenge and it was expected you had to LEARN aspects of the game, nowadays people dont even expect they have to take the time to learn anything. alot of the eq population are of the "log in, click fest, win game" type of gamestyle and it shows. when you tell a monk nowadays they might have to practice pulling a zone for a few hours to learn spawn points, wanderer routes, mob agro radius, which are casters, respawn time, pulling with sneak and/or throwing etc more often then not they'll tell you to shut up and that they know more then you, then proceed to pull multiple, at which point you can be garunteed half the group doesnt know what to do and at least 2 people start running for the zoneline (when there's an evacer in the group).

im really not all that bitter, i try to just avoid these people in game, but its becoming increasingly difficult to find the skilled and knowledgable players.

oh and btw, sadly enough, most of the ebayed people ive ever met are actually more knowledgable about a class and have researched it or grouped/raided with them alot before deciding they wanted to play that class, you still come across the "my daddy bought this character for me cuz i was a good boy for my 12th birthday", but usually people that buy toons from ebay have taken the time to at least research and learn the class before hand. in fact ive know alot of people to buy a toon on ebay and become alot better then the original :P

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

bugman,
Couldnt have said it better myself man.

Good post and so true!

Rarely did trains to zone happen in LGuk... most people died before they hit the water, but a few would make it through... and death would lie in there path.

Another thing you did not mention about 'days gone by'....

In days gone by there were fewer people playing EQ. There were fewer level 45-50. Because of this 'small' community of folks people got to know each other. Back in the day you lived and breathed by your reputation. If 3-4 people didnt like you because you were a 'tard' the entire server knew it by the next day and you were essentially 'banned'.... once a bad rep always a bad rep... back in days gone by...

SOOOO much different now...

[Bryc]

As I recall, there were a fair number of idiots pre-Kunark as well. The difference was, the playerbase wasn't as sophisticated, so some of he boneheadedness wasn't obvious unless it affected you. Let me tell you, I lost track of the pullers that thought "OOM" meant "Only One More".

Wizards overnuking,  Mages whipping out the Earth pet, people breaking mez, Warriors yelling "HEAL" (told you no pulls)...I remember all of that. Every chanter  I knew had a smartass mez macro, with good reason.

EQ has matured so much that there is only one way to do any given job. After 4 years, we all know what the way is, and we pretty much do it automatically. If the Cleric says "OOM" and the monk says "pulling", 5 people yell "dude, healer LOM, WTF are you doing!?".

Back in the day, that was a RARE question.  I can't tell you how many times I got mana for a heal right before the tank would have died. And sometimes, not even then.  :P

[The Kittenpeeler]

There are times, that I wish that in order to progress past level 50, you needed to collect X number of flags that were given from gaining a certain minimum amount of xp in dungeons (lost or otherwise.)  Then, to level past 54 you *had* to have your 6AA, to level past 58 you *had* to have 12AA in archetypes, to pass 60 you *had* to have your 24 in class AAs, and that for each level past 60 you needed 10AA in addition to the level.

Well, the flaw here is, sitting at a level grinding AA doesn't make you a single bit smarter.  Tell me, do you think your skills would improve chain-pulling in Dreadlands from one level to the next? If not (and i'll bet you don't), when how can you say anything is learned from repeating the procedure 6, 12 times?

And since when are dungeons hard? What, do you find Sity of Mist challenging? Lower Guk is a peice of cake these days. Kaesora's easy, but just annoying. Kurn's? Paludal? Grieg's is pretty interesting, i'll grant. But dungeon play doesn't mean squat.

Why?  Because people are levelling so damned fast they aren't taking the time to learn their class.  People have a level 65+million AA in one class, and somehow think that makes them an expert in this new class they are playing.  I'm right now torn between complaining about the slower xp in LDoN and praising it.  Fast levelling is the bane of EQ, it makes for stupid players in the high end.

People are just inherently stupid. Speed of leveling has nothing to do with it. I played a shamuid (Shaman in leather with a book in one hand who pretended to be a cleric) up until level 53, then I zoomed to 63 in PoP and consider myself a very damn good Shaman player (Aside from the fact i'm fed up with the class). This is because I learn quickly and am very adaptable. Has nothing to do with spending a month at level 45 in Trakanon's Teeth

[The Kittenpeeler]

Dammit, I want an edit button! Gotta start using preview more often, I guess.

[Lorathir]

Playing at being pirates on the Lake Rathe boats with complete strangers as a lv20ish>>> all.

With that interraction came knowledge about other classes, and indeed your own - as well as pulling techniques, mobs, agro, tradeskilling etc etc etc.

Because nobody 'plays pirates' or really interracts that much anymore, is it any wonder Johnny Dingalot's not as clued up as you would expect ?

[bugman]

And since when are dungeons hard? What, do you find Sity of Mist challenging? Lower Guk is a peice of cake these days. Kaesora's easy, but just annoying. Kurn's? Paludal? Grieg's is pretty interesting, i'll grant. But dungeon play doesn't mean squat.

you're right, most dungeons arent challenging anymore, and thats the point. with so many easily pulled and trainable outdoor zones people stopped going to the challenging dungeons, and so they stopped making them.

one of the last ones was when they revamped CT (yes outdoor but very dungeon styled), i remember forever after the revamp i would go with friends (long pre pop) and we would sometimes wipe, but usually were able to do what we wanted. we lived there, and most of the times if another group came in to exp or farm some gear they would end up wiping, and then not able to get corpses, and we would end up helping them.

and now they pushed ldon and some of the god zones on people as really the only way to do certain things, which i think is great, but look at the rash of "omg people are retarded" type posts centering around ldon.  a good amount of the ldon pickup groups ive ever been in there's been someone so incredibly ignorant to the ways of dungeon style spawns and multiple pulls that ive vowed never to do pickup groups again.

and no, you're right, its not just a dungeon thing, ive been in countless groups in zones like plane of valor killing golems when the puller says 2 inc and the cleric says to train to zone (several times this has happened, no joke). or bot where a group will train from tables if a multiple pull instead of letting me and pet offtank adds after telling them i will if multiple pulls.

so no, you're right, dungeons dont mean "squat" anymore, which is precisely my point. they *used* to mean alot to development of skill and ability to perform under pressure. and nowadays with ldon and some god zones (though ldon is cake and some god instanced dungeons are too), with the reintroduction of even slightly challenging dungeon style zones (lots of spawns, multiple pulls, cant always see whats around the corner), you see more and more instances of people that have no damn clue how to play thier classes under pressure and effectively.

ive been in bot or pov pickup groups where a multiple pull was declared inc and before we even tried people were yelling to run to zone or evac, seriously many times ive seen this happen. people that learned their class in the old days of having to exp in old ct, lguk or solb would know this wasnt always an option and try to actually kill the pull, which nowadays anything more then easy single pulls is unacceptable to people cuz they simply often times cant handle it.

trust me, i wish it wasnt true, but eq is fast becoming a diablo style game where your pressence alone is usually enough to win... that is until you wipe some group by being an idiot and get a rant dedicated to you :P

[Strigori]

to some degree that lack of danger your talking about has more to do with better pulling and better means of pulling.   lulling wasnt something that was used much back when your talking about, monks were the pull gods.

as for the ct revamp...i hate that zone with a passion.  i have had too many instances of mobs agroing through walls, and sometime floors and bringing thier own little trains to your group, and im not talkin about 2 or 3 lizards, tends to be more like 10.  mobs falling through walls has also been a problem at times. its just not a well designed zone.   if the mechanics of the game worked better in ct it would be an alright spot to hang still

as for not handling multi pulls, those people are just retards.  there is a warrior in my guild that  with pick ups on regular ldons will pull 3 on the first pull to see if the group is worth keeping,they wipe, he leaves

[TerjynPovar]

LDoN started out as having the pickup groups from hell.

In my experience though, most of the people who truly suck have gone back to Valor/BoT, because they don't win enough in LDoN (even normal) to make it worth their while.  I've had a single idiot in an LDoN recently, but it's been a long time since I had a group full of them.  In PoV/BoT they can kill one mob an hour if they so feel like it and still make progress.

Bugman:  One thing I disagree with in your statement, is about how playing in Lower Guk and Solusek B made players "good" back in the day.  This would be true of the first wavers...I remember being in Lower Guk with just me and my group.  Lower Guk was brutal at that stage.

Later on, as more and more people pushed to 35,40,45+...those dungeons lost all requirement of skill.  You could walk from zone in of Lower Guk all the way to the Ghoul Lord without ever seeing a monster alive.  During those days you learned pretty much nothing save don't go near the Greater Ice Bone Skeletons, as they were generally the last thing in the whole dead side to be killed.

What truly struck me as funny about all that is we'd farmed all we wanted out of dead side LG before the masses showed up, so we switched to live side.  There'd be 120 people in Lower Guk, and my group of 6 plus perhaps one more would be on live side, while 108 people would be fighting over dead side spawns.  Never really did understand why people were so averse to killing live frogs.

[katahn]

I need to take a moment with the comments about the game being made easier for "casual" players and that the recent changes in newbie friendliness are synonymous with casual friendliness.  I am not a newbie, but I am definitely a casual player these days.  Some nights I don't play, some I play for a couple hours maybe (and by couple. I mean 2). while others I might get 3-4 hours in.  Several factors as to why, none of them really relevant to this discussion.

My issue is that there is often this unspoken assumption that casual players are somehow idiots who need and want content spoonfed to them, who can't handle challenges, and want everything easy.  This is not the case.  Casual players such as myself want a challenging game, but one that can be fairly reasonably broken down into 2-3 hour blocks of time.  We want to be able to experience a persistent online fantasy world with thousands of other people, and have challenging and exciting adventures, not spend that entire time LFG or if it happens to be close to quitting time with work early the next day, don't want to have to contend with a corpse run that could take additional hours.

Making the game more user friendly, in its interface and in removing pointless timesinks, is not the same as making the game challenges easier.  If anything, I wish the game could be made more challenging, with appropriately scaled rewards, and more options for development and making a character unique.  There are a lot of little ways the game is being made more friendly in its interface and in the playing, wihch is good, and then a lot of ways in which game play itself is too fast and easy, which is bad.  I applaud the popularity of LDoN with 20-50 characters as it seems to teaching folks how to handle dungeons, how to work in a group under pressure, and how to try and get through a bad pull rather than run because of the negative impact that can have on the timer.