How do these people not know?

[mac173]

Kathan, I agree with you.
I play less than you (MAX of 2 hours a night) and just can't stand spending half that time LFG or traveling.
I remember the good old days. I can remember logging on and planing my night of play. Tonight, run from Quenos, to High Hold Keep. If no CR's are needed, continue to Freeport. Log off.
The timesinks were incredible. Taking the boat from ANWHERE could just about kill the entire days time I had to play. (Wonder why I'm only LVL 45?). I have recently begun to concentrate on Leveling, and gone from Level 17 to 45 in about 8 months. MONTHS, not days.
 The dedicated player today moves up in level so fast, the time to get to know other classes, or players, is limited.So I DO think players are less knowledgable overall, but that the player is in overall controll of how they play. Blindly Pulling and ignorring OOC from the healer is stupid at level 10, as well as at level 65.  
LDoN has been a mixed bag of experience for me. I get some good groups, and some bad groups. I revel in the good, and try VERY hard to remember the names of the players in those. In the bad ones, i try to rememember the IDIOTS, and forgive the mistakes of the inexperienced. The idiots I will not group with again, the inexperienced I try to teach what I can. Ultimatly, the quality of the players is at least partially in our own control. If you automatically ignore someone who makes mistakes, they will never get better.  Try to teach, without rancor.

[Kuriosity]

People need to be really careful when finding a scapegoat for poor players. It has nothing to do with the amount of time a person plays, as it does how well a person learns.

Poorly written comments targeted at casual players like

yah yah blah blah 10% of the games content is geared towards raids and you cant join boohoo

Doesn't make a point other than you acting like a jerk towards those who don't invest hours on end in EQ.

I played also from the Pre Kunark days and there were a lot of idiots back then too. The only difference between then and now is that there are lot more people in EverQuest and with a lot more people comes a lot more poor players.

There were stupid level 50 players before Kunark, their were stupid level 60 players during Kunark. Nothing there has changed. But trying to place blame of poor players on the game being more and more geared to balance for the casual and hardcore player is just pathetic. There is a lot involved in learning this game, and EQ always had a high learning curve, the tutorial has always been subpar, and learning EQ can take longer than most anyone could expect for a game.

There will always be players that are worse than you, and there are players that will always be better than you, but whining everytime we run into a poor player does nothing to improve the situation. Ya, it gets frustrating, but bad players have been complained about for years now and has anything changed?

You have a few choices really, avoid the players that need more time to learn the game and their class, or help them get better. There is a lot of trial and error that goes into learning this game, and you had to do it once before too. And there are a lot of poor players out there trying to learn to get better, they have the potential to do so, but bitching about it everytime they make a mistake only makes them pissed off poor players that now have even less concentration on doing the job they're supposed to be.

[quinalla]

Not necessarily e-bay, some people just don't understand the basics of the game even after of months of playing. However being ignorant is one thing (and easily forgiven as far as im concerned), but not listening to reason is something else entirely...

Completely agree, I don't mind people who don't know something about the game.  I learn new things in EQ quite often still, especially about other classes.  The problem is people who are unwilling to try/learn new things.  My main is a druid and I have been in so many groups with people who don't understand off-rooting or refuse to believe it is viable as CC.  Granted, I prefer an enchanter or bard anyday, but a good root does just fine and my druid has zero problems keeping a mob off-rooted as long as she has mana.  I have many other similar instances of people unwilling to try something new or learn somthing new.

The other problem is people who just aren't paying enough attention.  Maybe they are watching TV, watching their kids, spacing out, too tired or whatever, but they are just not with it enough.

And yeah, a lot of people put up with way too much crap from group members.  People going stealth-afk all the time with no explanation, not doing their job, refusing to do things that benefit the group, etc. are going to get kicked from my groups pretty fast after a warning.  And yes, in LDoNs you really notice when people don't know what they are doing.  The difference of a group of 6 good players vs. a group with 5 good and 1 bad is even painfully noticable.

[bugman]

hah knew i shouldnt have mentioned anything using the buz words "casual player"... the casual militia is after me now!

i have no problems with people that cant play alot, and am infact myself becoming increasingly more of a casual players, but dont try to pretend that the game isnt catering to casual players more and more (not saying its all a bad thing) and dont try to ignore the fact that alot of the things they do to make the game easier and faster make alot of the eq population less knowledgable.

the game is increasingly being tuned directly to the diablo style players, log in, slaughter stuff, dont think too much, dont have all that hard of a time getting to and from where you wanna go, dont waste alot of time when you die, kill stuff chain pulling singles with little or no risk, log out having accomplished alot and having fun.

this is all a good thing, up until you're on a raid or a high pressure group with someone and they suddenly dont have a clue other then how to log on and win everything with little effort.

in no way did i intend to say that being a casual player makes you an idiot, all im saying is the game is becoming more and more tuned towards casual players and its causing extra amounts of idiots, just my opinion though.

[Bryc]

the game is increasingly being tuned directly to the diablo style players, log in, slaughter stuff, dont think too much, dont have all that hard of a time getting to and from where you wanna go, dont waste alot of time when you die, kill stuff chain pulling singles with little or no risk, log out having accomplished alot and having fun.

I actually agree that the pace of the game has somewhat deteriorated the skills of the players. But it's not just the "casual" changes, both casual and hardcore people display these traits. Part of the problem is that the game has become all about the end-game. Get to 65 ASAP. Don't waste your time grouping, raid, raid. More HP, MORE. The carrots used to be a incentive to play, but the carrots have bcome the entire game.

Say you're in my guild (we're tiny), you play 12+ hours a day, and you want to join a Time guild. Well, you need to be Ele flagged. How do you do this? Easy. Join a raid that's getting a flag you need. Join another. Keep doing that, BAM, welcome to PotimeA.

And what did you learn on the way? Well, for MB someone told you to stand in a corner, and run to here at this signal, and then run to here, and then hit stuff. Don't let this reach that. Or for Grummus, someone told you that you'd be afflicted with such-and-such AE's at a certain time, which have certain effects. To counter this, pop Paragon when I say so, etc.

The first people through took WEEKS learning each encounter, now you can get 3-4 flags in a DAY.

Just once it would be fun to see a pickup raid where the leader said "Welcome to Xanamech. You have to kill him. Figure it out". But that won't happen. Not on a raid, not in a group. People don't experiment anymore, because experimentation is inefficient, it delays whatever big score you seek (levels/AA's/gear).

Grummus took me, from decision to flag, less than 2 hours. Frankly, I just did it for the free AA. I'd prefer to crawl in Hate's Fury, but I won't get 65/300/flagged that way, crawling dungeons keeps me a "noob". I've been asked why I was "wasting time" in OS. Sheesh.

People don't really play the game anymore, because the carrots at the end are just too juicy.

[Kinash]

In my experience, a player who mainly solos will have some of the problems people mention above. For example, the Shaman may have been slowing the mob but didn't do a hotkey that says so. I am a soloer by nature and haven't hotkeyed any spells. When I am asked to slow in an LoDN Adventure no one would know if I was slowing. Since I never made a Hotkey for a spell I was clueless how to let them know I was doing it. Also, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up. While INT for a lvl 65 Shammy may be a waste, on lower level Shammy, like all character classes, you still want that extra-INT to skill up quicker. When the player says they were slowing the MoB I would have asked if they hotkeyed it properly or if they were even working (mine never work on LoDN - all immune to mine).

[quinalla]

Also, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up.

Whichever is higher, WIS or INT gives you the same help with skillups, so for all WIS casters INT is essentially worthless and vice-versa unless you just like seeing all the number maxed :)

[Kuriosity]

I agree that the game is becoming more trivial, and geared towards a less time consuming environment. A lot of this contributes to poor players. My only gripe was saying that it was casual "players".

Now I am by no means a hardcore player anymore, I used to be, but I ended that and moved servers. It was too much like work to log in each night. Now I play more than casually and go for marathon hours on the weekend, but not everyday like before. Personally there are a few things that went in that seemed to really contribute to the high end n00b population.

One of them being KEI and Virtue. These two spells have generated more PL'ed 65 n00bs than anything else i've seen. I think they are a valuable part of the game, but rather than giving them the Kunark spell level cap they should have made another.

Just like you have to be 45 to recieve Kunark 51+ spells benefits. You should have to be 55 to recieve PoP 61+ spells.

The nexus first helped improve travel immensely, now how often do you see it used, since the nexus trivialized travel all together. Traveling and learning how to cross dangerous zones was part of the game. When's the last time you heard of someone having to cross Kithicor at night?

I personally think the prememmed spells and premade hot buttons is a good idea, so people at least can get used to what they are and know what to expect, but putting you in front of you guild leader, and maxing you sense heading skill 200 off the bat was just assnine.

There are so many changes that have made learning the game trivial, and this is good up until a point, but as of now they've gone overboard on making it easy, and the only goal left in game now is really to get 65, get AA's, get more gear. There is no accomplishment in learning anymore, because they have already done it all for you.

[Oneiromancer]

When's the last time you heard of someone having to cross Kithicor at night?

My first character, a Ranger (of course) crossed Kithicor at night once.  Or tried to; he died pretty fast.  I refused to use the PoK book to get to Qeynos without having made the attempt on foot first.  Amazingly enough, that was the only place I died on my trek, although I was level 15 with Camoflage.  It dropped in High Hold Pass but I was able to zone there.  Even though it was interesting, that half hour or so run across the Karanas (hadn't begged a SoW from anyone) pretty much dampened my enthusiasm for exploring in that way, especially because all the zones were so empty.

As many people have said or implied, it all depends on what you bring to the game.  My Beastlord is basically my second character; she was born on November 5 of last year and I just dinged 62 this weekend.  Not the fastest progression nowadays, but compared to how I hear it used to be, this is pretty phenomenal.  I was taught well, by a friend who wanted to make sure I wasn't dead weight in a group (and I wasn't PLed, he started a new character to play with me), I observed how other people played (although I rarely saw other BSTs in action), and I frequented (and still do) messageboards and information websites in order to learn all I can.  This is because I care about making my group a good one, and having fun with it.  If the person doesn't care, then they won't learn how to play well, it's as simple as that.  The reverse is not necessarily true...someone can care but still not grasp how to play well.  As has been pointed out, you can usually tell the difference between these two kinds of people, and know which ones to avoid and which ones to help.

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

[Hrann]

I just wanted to make a comment regarding hotkeys for slow.  I never hotkey that a mob is slowed in a group.  If that is my job, then just assume the mob is slowed, why should someone just keep spamming all the time?  Now if there are two slowers in the group, then I can see the reason, and I do have a hotkey for those instances.

[Kinash]

Also, depending upon what level the Shaman was, he wanted the INT so he can skill up.

Whichever is higher, WIS or INT gives you the same help with skillups, so for all WIS casters INT is essentially worthless and vice-versa unless you just like seeing all the number maxed :)

See... that is something I didn't know! All the SOE sites and the Prima Guides they sell say that INT is the sole factor for skill-ups and that WIS or INT is for Mana only. That is the problem that the documentation is rife with errors! I was always looking for INT items for my BST to get skill-ups at lower levels!  :(

[Hrann]

INT used to be the only stat that controlled skillups (except for the melee ones) that's why it's in the documentation (which you're right, is rife with errors and mostly useless).  At some point they changed it to be WIS or INT I guess because they felt that the INT casters had an unfair advantage (in that they had one less stat they needed to raise than the WIS casters).

[mac173]

At some point they changed it to be WIS or INT

I think it was sometime after the release of Kunark. I first got EQ then, and got the Ruins of Kunark guide. It says INT for skill ups. When Luclin came out, I never looked for INT, just WIS, so I must have learned that in the meantime. And the Luclin guide I have says INT or WIS, whichever is higher.

I never hotkey spells. I don't like the spam. I watch the health meters, and the MOB, and usually know if the slow landed. I have learned to recognise when my Yekan's Quickening spell drops, just by how long it takes the group to kill mobs.

With time, you learn. I think the biggest issue in the quick leveling is that there is no substitute for experience. The massive time needed to level when the game first came out was excessive, but I think the correction was too much, and now it's too fast. We should not go back to the days of Level 10 in 6 months, but it should be slowed down a bit.

I think they had the right idea with the initial level limit on use of the Nexus. Pre Level 20 players have no need to travel to other newbie zones.

[Xuthaz]

I generally do not group with anyone outside of my guild, which are no were near uber but just a bunch of old friends that have been guilded on and off from original game til now.  I don't even like grouping with PMs or newer members unless they are old school players.  I don't Pick Up group with anyone who started after Kunark was released generally.  I hate to say it, but the only good BSTs i know are ones who were melee classes for years before Luclin even came out.  Most int casters were/are newb idiots back in the day so i hold to that still (except enchanters, they were generally knowledgable/skilled or they died, alot, and rerolled necros)  Druids also were pretty retarded.

Today its much harder to weed out idiots.  Like Paladin/SKs.  I don't group with em unless i recognize their name from Kunark.  Sorry unless you learned your class from earning the right to a group back when you sucked, you probably just PLed one during PoP when they became exp group gods.  Mages? wizards?  you were all idiots back in the day, well i'm assuming you were cus i never saw you in my group, too busy soloing in OOT, and if i did see you in a group you probably overnuked and died or trained us or something equally retarded.  So same principle stands, you get summoned more than once then you don't get grouped in the future.  I still don't see necros LFG so i'll keep assuming they are antisocial newbs.  Bards are even easier.  I keep a list.  Theres a grand total of 5 good bards on my server, if you aren't on the list, you are probably a moron.  Too bad those 5 good bards are never LFG cus they maxxed their GoD AAs swarm kiting 2 weeks ago.  Warriors and clerics i've been grouping with since EQ came out so i've a pretty good idea who the idiots are.  Really good rangers are also rare, most are the alt of some Necro who wants to group but already has a bad rep.  Old school enchanters are even rarer, since there was only like 5 enchanters on my entire server before mez became the main stream common tactic.  Basically nowadays enchanters better be doing more than the VoQ/VQ bot in the corner or they don't get grouped.  i'll give you a hint, starts with Command, ends with Of Druzzil.  get that DC out of here, the bot can DC.  Shamans?  Monks?  not sure if its universal or just my server specifically, but Shamans and Monks were typically the ones figuring out raid strats, pull starts, etc and starting the uber guilds back When Fear, sky, and Hate was the end game content.  If you were skilled/knowledgable enough to be soloing Juggs when kunark came out then you are alright in my book as a shaman.  Same thing goes to monks pulling hate back with my rogue scouting for em.  ahh Rogues, my old main from release until beginning of Luclin...it's kinda hard to figure out the tards with SoS.  Here's a hint, back in the day that was the difference between good rogues and bad ones.  I was CRing shit like 4D and deep Chardok past see invis mobs without no SoS, no Escape.  get that shit out of here and we might be able to tell the diff tween the two.


yes this post is just in jest, i'm only like, maybe 80% serious :P

[bugman]

yes this post is just in jest, i'm only like, maybe 80% serious

damn... i was thinking i finally found a like minded individual  :cry: