Warders: The root of all evil

[Ghoat]

AFAIK, a fully hasted pet could land 4 attacks in a round - maybe 5 with a proc. I don't think it's possible, but maybe in theory, he could land 4 claws, a bash + a proc for a total of 6.

Then again, if we are gonna go that route, a monk *could* land 6 melee (twin triple attacks) a flying kick at if each weapon fired it's proc once, you would have 11 attacks in a second :)

To make a point, you should next raid, get the raid to all hold off on a yard trash mob.  ONLY the MT, and another true double attacker with decent weapons- war/monk/ranger engage the mob from the from.  You an another beastlord slip behind the mob and engage pets (w/o spirit of wind).  Let those 4 fight until the mob is dead & let everyone see which direction the mob gets pushed.  Be even more fun to watch if the MT was a pally.

Now pets CAN get in the way of melee - just as other melee can, so that might be logical complaint, but assuming the MT was first on the target, it should not be an issue.  Heck there are sometimes that I can't ever get in range to hit a mob when there are 67823042 melee crowded into a small hitbox critter.

[Ghoat]

Oops forgot - ARo I would think would be a good server in that manner.  It's a very old population server, even tho the server is not that old.  I think it was one of, if not the first split server.  CT is a very old server, and I know a lot of CT went to ARo, as did a lot of the Uber guilds from other servers when it was opened, so I would guess it's player base is actually MUCH "older" than the server itself.

Maybe it's due to an old server, maybe it's just luck, but I have never run in to much wild pet hate on CT, aside from the usual FTards that also insist on have a dex buff on the wizards to help them cast  :roll:

[TerjynPovar]

This seems like a good place to post this, so I gotta ask.

How does push actually work?  I simply don't get it.

When my pet is offtanking something, the mob doesn't move.  It just stands there.

When I'm tanking for my pet, even if I'm standing on the same side as the pet, the mob still doesn't move.  At all.

However, put a Paladin on the opposite side of me and my pet, and the mob will get pushed all over hell and back.

Replace the Paladin with an SK, and the mob won't move...until you add in Rangers, Rogues, Magicians, Wizards, etc.

[Kherryn]

I'm very lucky, myself.  One in that my guild isn't taking on very very high end stuff, and two that I'm one of the more respected members of the guild.  If I say something, at least half the people believe it.

I've told my guild that unless there is a penalty for having a pet (such as AEs causing agro, or maybe mobs spawn when a player/pet dies), they're not going to tell me not to have my pet up.  They can either disband me from the guild (not bloody likely), or understand that I know more about my pet than they do.  No one challenges me, but I realize I'm very lucky to be in a guild who knows I know my stuff.

[Kaspur]

Sorry but if your pet is pushing mobs into walls then it's YOUR fault and not your pets.

Pet push is easy to control unless you are a lazy BL that just says pet attack and then forgets about him. I constantly work during a fight to position my pet (get lots of compliments on it), and I will put him on hold before I let him push mob into a wall.

I have a hot key that does a pet hold followed by a pet back off, I use this key to position my pet to push opposite the main tank. Main tank decides which direction the mob is to head and it's all melee and pets job to be opposite him. As a guild we practice this all the time and as a result we lose very few mobs to push. MT will give directions during the fight on where he wants mob to go and it works well.

Warders are not a fire and forget weapon, work on positioning your pet to advantage (helps if rest of the melee do it also) and you will rarely lose a mob to push.

[Zorthar]

The only way pets can break mez is like this and its rare as hell because the very VERY small time frame it can happen.

Zorthar`s Warder begins to cast a spell.
So and So starts to drool
Z`s Warder proc lands
So and so has been awakened by Z`s Warder

The time between this happening is a fraction of a second.  I am thinking an issue could happen with shielded mobs too like.

Froglok_01 uses froglok_02 as a shield.
Froglok_02 begins to drool
Z`s warder hits Froglok 1 for 20 points of damage
Z`s warder hits froglok 2 for 20 points of damage
Froglok 2 has been awakened by Z`s warder.

[Xilbeast]

Ghoat wrote:

Will all due respect, your officer is an utter idiot with regard to understanding pets.

Im in the same guild/server as Tytallia, unfortunatly your not seeing the whole story here.  Notice how Tytallia's post started with the number 3?  Heres the rest of the post.

When the raid lleader asks for no pets there should be no discussion. Pets need to be suspended or killed asap. There are reasons for this but, the point is the RL has asked and discussion should end. I get tells from pet classes every raid asking "Why can't we place pet on hold." There are a few reasons as follows:

1) Raid Leader requested End of Discussion
2) If another pet class sees a pet out and was not paying attention, then they will send the pet to attack against the RL wishes.
3) BL pets must have knockback effect eliminated during raids at all times. This includes bash effects as well. Using a 2hb (can be weapon summomed by mages) is a must even at dps cost.
4) See # 1

Please follow the RLs request and if No Pets are called dont send tells explaining why you should have a pet or pet hold Kill the damn pet or suspend end of story.

This was originally posted november 23rd.   When it was clear these new rules were still not solving some of the problems the guild was having on raids the officers changed this to 'No pets period'.    I would add that not all of our problems on raids were centered on pets, it was just one that at that time the officers felt best handled by removing them from raids.

Silresa wrote:

Ooooh.. Ignorance about pets.. I -love- this issue.

This isnt ignorance in the least Sil, we have officers in the guild who are pet classes and they are the ones who created the original rules then changed them.

Bugman wrote:

my advice: find informed people in the guild and hope they go to bat for you. try to post positive non ranting information on your guilds message board about pets and how they work

LOL Tytallia tried that already, didnt work.

Bugman wrote:

as a last ditch thing i would consider a new guild

Good advice Tytallia, maybe you should consider taking it, your clearly NOT happy here.

Xilbeast

[Ghoat]

I'll still stand by my statement, even after seeing point 1 and 2.

Now, this is working under that assumption that if you are in a guild that raid,s and you are a pet class, that you would have Pet Hold before just busting out a pet "because you can"

There are really very very VERY few fights that pets cannot be effectivly used on - mostly in PoW.  A RL should not ever have to give a "kill all pets now" command.   The "fire and forget" comment above was good - being able to control pets on raids is a must, but unless people are just really stupid (and I am certainly not saying you or your guildmates are)  "kill all pets now" never needs to be said.  A RL saying what he wants done with pets & how he wants them used is one thing, but a general banning of them to me says that the RL is really pretty clueless about them, or the pet classes on the raid need to be beaten with a stick - often.

Now I do agree that during raids is not the time for a philosophical pet debate, those can be done during downtime/offdays/guild boards etc.

I'd like to quote a Jowwa sig at this point.  

"Mobxxx has been awakened by Druid_01"  "KILL ALL DRUIDS NOW!"

I always liked that sig :)

[Tytallia]

Xil if you ever bother to group with and/or chat with me you would know why I joined NDR in the first place (I joined about 8 monthes ago, you joined 4 monthes ago). I am totally happy being in a guild with my friends. The fact is someone referred me to that specific quote from the post in question saying basically, "if an officer said it, it must be a fact about pets." Mainly in regards to a player being able to turn off it's pet's bash attack. I am still unable to find a hotkey or command that does this.

Bugman yes I tried making an objective/informative post about the asset of having a pet on the aggro list. The first reply was a direct flame and rant from the warrior classleader (which not surprisingly enough ended up being a "warriors have it worse STFU" rant). And the second reply was a rant from another warrior. I have many friends in this guild and see this "No pets" BS as just that, BS that only weakens my team. It is depriving us of damage output and "speedbumps."

Having officers tell me I have good pet control and it's not about me, not even discussing the matter with me (so I'm not an officer or my classleader; it still directly affects me) and then *poof* basically overnight "No Pets" on every raid based on flawed information is my rant. It's a subject that will always bring up heated words and discussions. That's why I deliberately posted it in this forum. Rants can be intelligent, informative and constructive discussions.

I am at my wits' end on this topic (not my guild, not EQ, just this topic) and I respect the opinions of many beastlords that take the time to be involved in this game-wide community/forums. If you want to make "Furball sux0rz, Leezard r0x0rz" posts please do so in some other thread.

Ghoat reagarding the possible # of attacks per round... players can fire off a proc for every hit per round AFAIK. So a monk can do 6 normal hits, 6 procs and 1 special kick correct?

[Ghoat]

AFAIK, yes you are correct - I miscounted procs ;)  I dont think you can fire two procs (assuming have 2) from the same weapon the same swing,  but a single proc could fire on each swing.  I think you are correct in having a max possible (damned unlikely of course) of 13 for the monk - which all have some push factor ;)

[Jakemm]

I really appreciate everone's input on this topic, as the same discussion has been occuring in my guild recently.  What I have noticed is that other pet classes are generally fire and forget, as someone mentioned.  I, as a beastlord, try to use my pet to position the mob as I desire, normally putting my pet right under the feet of the MA, pushing againt the wall of people trying to hit the mob from behind.

Fortunatly, I am in a guild of intelligent people, and they are always open to discussion about issues (and have not asked me to put my warder away).

[Funzo]

I raid little, so I don't have much input either way. But am I to assume that since our pets are to blame for all the mob pushing, there was never a mob placement issue before Luclin? In the original game, did mobs always attack the main tank as scheduled and line their ass up perfectly for the rogues? Because if so, then obviously we are the problem.  :roll:

[bugman]

the next step after trying to squash the rumours and urban legends about pets was to get my fellow guild beastlords to practice good pet managment. we jumped from just me to 6 active bsts in a very short time, and due to this i guess it was assumed by many people that that was now suddenly the reason for bad push particularly. one thing i did was posted some hotkeys for my fellow guildie bsts to position pets faster and better. (the easiest is having an assist hotkey that backs the pet off, then /assists mt, then has pet attack and having a good long delay so your pet has time to run to you, get in new position, and reatact all with one press of a hotkey, and like someone said most importanly you dont have to have your pet attacking, there's often times i assist and if mob is heading to a wall i just back myself and pet off and go sit where the mob should be positioned in silent protest). ill admit that some of my fellow bsts were pretty lazy at times with pet managment, and as the unofficial class leader (and official guild asshole) i was on their asses for days every single time a bst pet was even almost out of position or not held etc. they got the picture and now all we get is compliments on our vast amount of help in keeping mobs in position as we bsts in my guild alone are responsible for 12 sources of push, and are now very on the ball. i also let them know that if they feel like being lazy do what i do, keep pet supsended until you feel more like babysitting, you dont always have to have pet out, but if you do you better be ready to control it with an iron muzzle.

now people are kinda realizing the pet problem isnt with the beastlords of my guild, but with the mages and necros (who've also had a recent jump in numbers). you often now see bst pets in the right position and all mage and necro pets bunched up blindly pushing a mob like mad towards certain doom (for the mt that gets summoned at least as happened in solro into lava a few days ago lol).

we're lucky as pet classes, since we're usually meleeing its very easy to keep our pets repositioned. imo most guilds should make their bst team officially in charge of mob push, as for instance in my guild we have 12 sources of push that with a little bit of thought turns into being able to balance push with just us often enough. we've gone from scapegoat to having specific duties to counter push and do the right thing, its kinda cool.

i wish people luck in their battles against pet ignorance, its not an easy fight, but it is possible to turn ignorant accusations into positive raid strategy once people are accepting of facts.


oh and for the person that was asking about push. push in relation to pet is normally caused by melee attacks. most people agree push is caused by quantity of attacks as opposed to magnitude. meaning if person A hits a mob 5 times for a total of 50 damage they're push more then person B that hits a mob once for 80 damage. what this means is that yes pets will push slightly more then some other PCs, though pls dont confuse this with them having heightened push, if a pet or pc hit a mob once for 10 damage they'll cause the same amount of push. the sucky thing is that you cant turn pet bash off (that i know of), or kick and pets usually have a very low attack delay. this means pets are hitting fast, and thats causing a good amount of push. BUT pets pushing is no way so much more then any other player that its significant. as someone else said i duoed from level 30ish to 58 almost exclusively which meant i was fighting directly opposite from my pet and never noticed any push significantly more then i was but for the times i was using spirit of storm, which is designed to have a knockback effect, which of course also pushes a mob. many stuns will have a degree of knockback as well, including some wizard dds (was told all magic based dds have a degree of knockback for spell interupts). my best evidence for this is on a pvp server my wizards level 12 magic dd was best for interupting gate as it was fast casting and had slight knockback for interupt. there's also one AA i know of that has drastic push, and thats the monk dragon fisting thingy, but they dont normally ever use it unless they intentionally need to. im pretty sure jsut about anything you do to a mob, including reg dds, has some aspect of push, its just most of it is so insignificant that it doesnt matter. just like our pets produce alot of attacks with very low delay, but in a raid of a bunch of melees meleeing its rediculous to think our pets alone are suddenly the ones creating push problems, just like blaming a single rogue or ranger would be equally short sighted.

sorry to say it, and sorry for the fellow guildie that doesnt see it i guess, but if a guild isnt allowing pets most of the time they're not only imo selling you as a class and person short, but missing many very usefull aspects a beastlord can bring to raid situations. and yes of course if the raidleader says no pets allowed then you shouldnt have a pet, but as you've stated this in no way makes that raid leader suddenly knowledgable in the ways of pets. if he cant hear out his fellow guildies and at the least potential strategies pets can bring (if not mostly unsung and behind the scenes) then he doesnt seem like a very good leader to me.  i dunno how many bst you have in your guild, but if you go to this raid leader or the guild as whole with the proper information and with the idea that a beast can do more then not push negatively, but they can use themself and pet to be a huge source of the right kinda of push. most raid leaders that havent realized this would jump at the chance to be able to put a group of people together with the sole purpose of being counter pushers. this of course would require you and your fellow guildmates that are beastlords to take the responsibility and act properly when it came to push. i would think that if you can prove to this raid leader the beastlords of the guild can and will control their pets and turn that push into a positive thing you guys' problem would then turn to him requiring you to use pets. ;)

long story short if anyone out there is regularly not being allowed to use a pet when you've proven you can and will control it and are willing to be personally responsible as that pets owner if it does anything bad then yes you're being sold short, you're getting jipped, you're being forced to not play your class to its fullest and not only should you be pissed, but you should be offended.

[Murkk Dakruul]

I'm curious which mobs you were having trouble on, that they could blame pets for?.

It's funny, in empire it's the complete opposite. For example when we get to Vallon in PoTime it's "everyone better have a pet up, including you slacker SK's". :D

We need a sticky listing the facts about pet push, so people can link it to their guilds MB when this crap comes up. :P

[Xenergy]

I guess the point was Jareen was that my pet can't even do have the things he's blamed for.  And yes, I have been told my pet broke mezz when he wasn't even engaged on that particular mob.  Warders are easy scapegoats, they can't even defend themselves.

Just AE bert.