The topic pretty much says it all. I can understand if a mob takes a few swipes at me when I slow it on inc or if I chain-slow it 2-3 times. I can understand if adds smack me once or twice, if mezzed mob hits me after it has been woken up since I tried to slow it 4 times before it landed or if a knight can't sustain perfect aggro just after a rez.
But for heaven's sake, when my club procs after 1 min of fighting and the mob turns to me, then there is something really wrong in the SK/pally. The reason we invited you in the group was perfect aggro + plate tanking - if we'd wanted to restrict our own aggro we'd gotten a real warrior. At least then we'd gotten some additional dps and discs to go with the deal. :evil:
Nothing as aggravating as having to bag the high dps, proc-augmented uber weapon ye've worked to get just because the tank can't be bothered to do his job. >_<
I disagree. We BSTs can be real agro magnets at times. If I cast Scorpion Venom, Venom of the Snake, Ice Shard I will more often then not pull agro from the main tank. This drives my SK friend nuts because he needs VoQ, SD, Mod Rod just to keep agro off me. Now if he has that much trouble getting agro off me after those three spells can you imagine how bad it is with all those Uber dps weapons?
If the Knight classes snap agro spells can not keep up with your agro there is no way regardless of what they try for them to keep agro off you. Now considering how much trouble my friend has keeping agro off me, can you imagine how bad it gets with Eplane or Time equipment? Unless they have some form of Furious bash, they just can't compete with High DPS BSTs.
I played a Paladin to level 57 and the last major place that I tanked was death row in PoJ.
The guild I was in were all level 65 people.
I was the baby in the guild and one night a group of 5 decide to bring me to PoJ.
I had a rouge, a wizard, a shammy, a cleric and a DC enchanter in the
group.
I could not believe the positive comments I had from this group about my ability to keep aggro.
Back then you would also see rampage from those mobs.
I would do my pull, then "spin" the mob so his back was to the group and then hold aggro through everything that they could throw at it.
I had 4 stuns loaded and flash of light and a healing wave spell ( remember healing aggro back then?)
There was NO way anyone was taking aggro of of me.
I worked my tail off for the entire time I tanked.
The wizard had to go, so one of them decided to bring his 63 warrior friend over to tank and I could move into a DPS position ( groan I had a windblade yay) after 15 mins of this guy tanking they asked ME to take over the job again.
After another 15 mins the warrior was so pissed about his lack of aggro compared to mine that he left the group.
My point?
If the knight wanted aggro he would have had it.
Problem is the guy watching TV while he is playing and not doing the work to hold aggro.
Nox
Pfff, I never use poison dots in groups unless I'm tanking or being an ass about aggro. Two cycled 30 sec recast nukes + my melee is not too much to ask to be able to do without getting aggro, stacking two super-high-aggro dots on the mob is a different thing altogether.
I've had a VT-geared warrior keep perfect, never-to-shift aggro over me with me chaining my two highest nukes and using ED + CoW. Any 65 knight not being able to do the same with SD + VoQ is incompetent, lazy or both. -_-
Any knight class that is unable to keep aggro is just plain being lazy. How hard is it for a pally to chain stun or a sk to chain darkness?
That's all it takes. Not only that but with 2handers being the preferred weapons for knights, there is plenty of time to cast those spells between swings.
Laziness... thats all that is.
Agree with the original rant. One of my guildies is an SK, a good one, and taking aggro off him is extremely rare. Sure, if SHFD procs 6 times I might have it, but otherwise no.
On a related note, is there any good reason an SK/PAL should be pulling with arrows?? Whenever I see that I cringe, because I know I'll be tanking for half the adventure...
QuoteOn a related note, is there any good reason an SK/PAL should be pulling with arrows??
Never in an adventure. Very rarely outside of an adventure.
I used to have agro fights with an SK guildie just for fun. If I really really work hard at it and start early enough (right as he gets to camp) best I could usually get was some early ping pong agro. If he was a little lax and I worked really really hard I could sometimes pull agro from him for a short while. If the the Knight is close in level and gear to you and not holding agro they are lazy or just plain bad.
I do however find it rather easy to pull agro from a warrior. Not sure if the recent patch did anything to fix this but I do feel for the poor warrior, SONY needs to give them some serious loving.
My main is a 65 pally. I keep 3 stuns loaded at all times. Any paladin that loses aggro is being lazy. I had a contest with a wizard once, I had him wait till the mob was at 90% and then chain nuke. He couldnt even get the mob to turn around while I was working on keeping aggro. We went the whole fight without the mob ever hitting anyone except me.
I think one problem is that sometimes the MT is trying to get as much DPS as possible instead of trying to keep aggro. If I am MT, I dont even worry about my DPS. If my group wanted DPS, they wouldnt have invited me!
QuoteI disagree. We BSTs can be real agro magnets at times. If I cast Scorpion Venom, Venom of the Snake, Ice Shard I will more often then not pull agro from the main tank. This drives my SK friend nuts because he needs VoQ, SD, Mod Rod just to keep agro off me. Now if he has that much trouble getting agro off me after those three spells can you imagine how bad it is with all those Uber dps weapons?
Me thinks your SK friend isn't doing his job properly. Here's a hint:
QuoteFear Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
1: Fear(1)
Mana: 40 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 3.5 Recast Time: 7
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Magic
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Fizzle Adj 25
Deletable: Yes Dot Stacking: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Short Buff Box: No
Target Type: Single Spell Type: Detrimental
Source: Test 01/17
Classes: CLR/9 SHD/15 NEC/4 ENC/4
Quote
Clinging Darkness Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
1: Decrease Hitpoints by 5 per tick
2: Decrease Movement by 24% (L4) to 30% (L10)
Mana: 20 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 1.75 Recast Time: 4
Fizzle Time: 2.5 Resist: Magic
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Fizzle Adj 25
Deletable: Yes Dot Stacking: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Short Buff Box: No
Target Type: Single Spell Type: Detrimental
Source: Test 01/17
Classes: SHD/15 NEC/4
QuoteTerror of Thule Detail | History | Raw Data
Slot Description
1: Increase Hate by 600
Mana: 60 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 1.5 Recast Time: 6
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Unresistable
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Deletable: No
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Single
Spell Type: Detrimental Source: Test 01/17
Classes: SHD/63
you can throw everything you've got at the mob chain incap/chain slow/dot stacking/nukes and you can't touch the aggro of a SK using these 3 spells intelligently. there mana cost is so negligible that VoQ+SD + Bazaar level FT can easily regen it standing, which leaves the SK plenty of room to out DPS you as well.
i was accidently taking agro from a SK in BoT last night... :roll:
simply by casting "Sha's Advantage" and about half way through the fight (yes mobs health was at 50%) Scorpian Venom
mob would turn...SK would go oh crap and cast an agro spell...sometimes mob would turn back...unless my epic chose that moment to proc...tee hee
~D~
its really annoying when a paladin joins your group, you cant keep agro off of you to save your life and you're not doing anything special (slowing but no dots), and then the group realizes you tank better anyhow so the paladin becomes a dps addition.
really though as people have said ive had problems with warriors at times, but you should never ever have a problem a sk or paladin as with spells alone and no melee they should usually still be able to keep agro. ive even had agro contests with a shadowknight and still wasnt easy keeping the mob on me and when we want a bst can produce more agro then anyone.
as far as using arrows, i know several sk and paladins that use a shitty bow to pull because often times you dont want the mob inc either snared, or stunned in place while potential adds add, or damaged to risk being summoned. this is what they say, never really thought much about it but they say sometims you want the mob pulled right then and fast and no damage done (using a bow doesnt normally cause much damage).
QuoteI had him wait till the mob was at 90%
Waiting that 10% is huge. Many don't want to wait that long anymore.Try it again with him doing it from the very start and see what happens. Just curious how long it will take to lock aggro.
Quoteoften times you dont want the mob inc either snared, or stunned in place while potential adds add, or damaged to risk being summoned
So you use a low level spell that gets resisted. Personally I think a bow is just wasted on a knight. Their skill sucks, you lose potential stats with better range item, and you have to worry about always having arrows.
Have a 65 SK for my main. There is no reason for the SK/PAL to lose aggro....maybe a quick turn and a single swipe at a caster but thats it. Anything less is laziness.
Haven't used a bow since level 9, low level debuff almost always does the trick with no damage=no summoning.
As Xuthaz stated Clinging Darkness and Fear (on 53+ MOBs) are an SK's bread and butter. Not a big fan of the Terror line but that may be personal. I am not familiar with PAL spells but my BST often groups witha PAL friend. I think he pulls with stun spell and I can slow as the MOBs incoming without gaining aggro the majority of the time. Same goes for when I am playing SK, SHM usually has the MOB slowed and debuffed on incoming without gaining aggro
Quote
I think one problem is that sometimes the MT is trying to get as much DPS as possible instead of trying to keep aggro.
You know, that's a good point. Sometimes I'm asked to MT for guildies, and I hate it, because I do less damage. Chaining Incap/Drowsy kills my spell dps and I assume my melee dps suffers. However, if you accept the MT job, you should realise that DPS isn't your gig. I'm sure those same tanks would be pissed off if the Cleric decided he should max DPS.
Quote from: Atropine_BBAny knight class that is unable to keep aggro is just plain being lazy.
I agree.
But then, we BL can take aggro from almost any one at will. Of all the tanks and pullers I've worked with, I can say only a handful have absolute aggro control over me. While most are competent, some of the newer knight tanks are still relying on damage and proc to hold aggro. Those are the ones that need to learn.
I played a paladin to level 65 + ~100 AA, raiding adventuring, grinding...although my BL is now my main.
:)
2 things to note:
1) to whoever thinks they can tank better as a BL then a paladin: that's a silly thing to say. Paladins should have 200-300 more AC than a similarly equipped BL, and a TON more HP. They also have the advantage of having the ability to STUN for agro. Unless you are a super twinked BL AND you are with an under-equipped paladin, the pally should be tanking.
2) any paladin who can't hold agro is either a) lazy or b) doesn't know how to play the class.
Tanking as a paladin is trivial...boring, in fact. Boring enough that I now play a BL...
Another point about paladins who are pulling and tanking: they should be using a stun to pull AND hitting the mob with a duration stun (not a 0.0 duration - which they are prolly using to pull with) as the mob comes to camp. Using two stuns like this will lock agro even if the slower slows or tashes before the mob gets to camp.
I'll say it again: agro management for a paladin is so trivial that it is BORING - no excuse for all the slackers I see out there that call themselves paladins.
:(
When grouped with Shadowknights, I really have problems on aggro But with Paladins and Warriors, I have to really carefully watch myself or I'll get the ping pong game going. I always pre-slow to get more aggro before the chanter slaps on the big slow, but usualy give the tank a couple of turns to build hate.
Over all, its not usualy too bad of a problem though since I always have a bard and chanter in group if things get too wild.
BC
Bows have flight time. An SK with a prenerf CoS with no see invis mobs around can break camps this way(fairly rare but it happens). Aside from that, it's fun to pick on rangers.
Hands down, at least I know... A pally should be able to keep aggro through the whole thing no matter what a BST throws at it. The guys wasn't doing his job at all. I usually inform (through tells) the tank of his lack of ability to tank and give him some helpful hints. If he does not acknowledge my tells, I simply call him out in the group. If he doesn not respond to that, I either disband (cause I have no wish to die over someones stupidity) or kick him (If I'm leader of course). I have even gone so far as to ask for leadership solely to kick the person. I then graciously give leadership back.
The worst instance of this was when we were grouped in Kaesora with an SK. He thought it advantageous to simply let his pet attack while others (cleric, wizard, ME) were getting beat on. Ohh, you shoulda hear the yellin in that group.
/g TANK PLEASE??
no response
/g HELLO TANK!!!!!!
no response
/g TANK WOULD YOU KINDLY DO YOUR JOB INSTEAD OF SITTING THERE LIKE A USELESS EXP SPOUNGE!!!!!
he starts to tank hehe
He tanked (sorta) through the rest of the group. Was a little rough around the edges. I finally left when he decided not to continue to beat on the MOB after it turned tail and ran. In which case, the MOB ran right back into the library and bought about 10 of his friends out. I left only after I gave him a piece of my mind.
Quote from: BloodCeltWhen grouped with Shadowknights, I really have problems on aggro
really should have been
rarely
I have a 51 sk as main if I am there as tank getting agro from me is a hard thing to do. When in a group as DPS I must be careful in playing not to take agro from main tank. There is no reason for a pally/sk to loose agro if they are trying to keep it.
I have a 65 Paly and my 65 BST. I two box them often, sometimes in the same group but also in seperate groups at the same time.
Using the stuns, taunt, and heals I dont loose agro often if at all. However, if my BST is not in the same group as my paly and the tank is not paying attention my BST gets agro while slowing,
Its up to the tank to keep the agro. I hate to see some slowers waiting till the mob is at 60% to slow. Most exp mobs need to be slowed right off the bat to make the spell worth casting.
It's also dependant on the gear the paladin in your group has. If he is weilding a wormslayer instead of his epic or is wearing Fine Steel instead of Time gear is a good indication.
Quote from: DakatIt's also dependant on the gear the paladin in your group has. If he is weilding a wormslayer instead of his epic or is wearing Fine Steel instead of Time gear is a good indication.
:P Yeah the wUrmslayer guy probably knows how to play the game since this is obviously his main and he's gone thru to 65 without twink gear, taking so much more time to do so. The guy with the time gear is bored out of his skull and thinks he's "all that", but likely just 'tagged along' thru PoP after buying his toon - "which key is for taunt and which is for stun?". :P
Quoteif we'd wanted to restrict our own aggro we'd gotten a real warrior.
I'd have to disagree somewhat, since the warrior revamp i have less issues "stealing aggro" from them than a knight.
Then you are either playing with some amazing Warriors or some bad Knights. Knights still have better lockdown than Warriors do, although it is much better than it was.
QuoteIf he is weilding a wormslayer instead of his epic
Epic is a bad example. I don't even remember the last time I saw somebody using the Paladin epic. It's just for show nowadays. I would worry about anyone actually using it in battle.
Quote from: DakatIt's also dependant on the gear the paladin in your group has. If he is weilding a wormslayer instead of his epic or is wearing Fine Steel instead of Time gear is a good indication.
Actually this isn't true for Knights: I experimented quite a bit in guild groups with Paladin agro at 65 and found that I could actually hold agro in a high DPS group without ever turning on my ATK.
(The alternate explanation for the above "experiment" would be that the player behind the keyboard (eg: ME) got so tired that he FORGOT to turn attack on....and still noticed that he could hold agro in a ranger/rogue/wizzie dps group by tossing in a few extra low-mana-cost stuns - - YOU decide what you want to believe!!)
:)
I'm here to tell you that maintaining agro as a paladin in a group is so trivial that it gets BORING.
How boring?
I don't play my 65 palaidn with nearly a hundred AA anymore...I was BORED.
Sure there are exceptions: it took effort to maintain agro whe there was a time-euqipped rogue in my group...or if the wizard was TRYING to get agro...but in 99% of the "normal" group situations paladin agro is trivial.