I have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold. As soon as my pet got aggro, the mob would aggro all the mobs in assist range. The best I could do most of the time was 2 pulls, but usually got 3-4 or even 5. How is it done?
Thanks for any information,
Zorthaz
DO you mean with "aggro" that your pet already had hit the mob once? The trick seems to be to use the pet's "taunt" proc before he actually gets to the mob and starts beating it. As soon as you sick your pet on a mob there is a chance he taunts onnhis way to the mob. You can sometimes see this when a mob comes running to you the moment you do /pet attack, while the pet isn't even there yet.
Now all you do is /pet attack and immediately /pet back off(or in your case /pet hold which is more reliable), so it won't actually get to the mob and beat it (and get aggro of all around it), in the hope it procs a Taunt in between commands and lures the mob to you. I have also heard that the Taunt has a shorter Range now, which makes it more difficult to use this technique, since now you have to let the pet come real close to the target, with a chance of it hitting the mob already.
If you knew all this already then discard this post. :)
Cheers!
Quote from: ZorthazI have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold. As soon as my pet got aggro, the mob would aggro all the mobs in assist range. The best I could do most of the time was 2 pulls, but usually got 3-4 or even 5. How is it done?
Thanks for any information,
Zorthaz
Well lose those whiners first off. If your group can't handle anything other than singles in a regular basis, you really want another group unless you like doing adventures in the 90-120 minute overtime with CRs. LDoN isn't about pulling singles ... those people really gotta get used to it.
Secondly, every dungeon is different. I've single pulled 90%+ of the fights in a Ruj dungeon more than once. Guk .. well you can pacify all you want and you are still getting multiples every room or two unless you got someone that can target thru walls. Same with Takish, other dungeons you have a decent chance of getting an easily-pulled dungeon but dont count on it.
Third, you are right - pet is going to aggro everything in 'assist' aggro range regardless of if its taunts from range and you pull it back, or if it actually makes contact. I hate pet pulling when there are tons of mobs around ... I've seen poor Snuggles get wasted before he finished spinning around from 3 or 4 mobs HTing and whacking at him. I don't care how gimp your equipment is, a BST at any level can tank LDoN "normal" mobs - at least one, and more if you have better equipment and/or someone else healing you. When you pull and get multiples, you are tanking at least one of them. If you dont have enough tanks, your CC should be dealing with it - and CC can be anything from a bard mezzing a couple, a necro mezzing/rooting/tanking a couple, chanter mezzing a few, druids/wizzies/shammies/clerics rooting/kiting/whatever - there are so many ways to handle multiples its sick.
But people are going to tell you all sorts of stories about how you can pet-pull aggro free by such-and-such, or by casting 'cancel magic' instead of slow, or ducking and spinning around, followed by a /rude in the general direction of the mobs. Don't believe them - everything works the same way (except the latter, which won't do anything).
And thats what you have to believe, and explain to the cowering masses that pee their pants when they see more than one mob. If its a melee thats complaining about multiples, tell them to offtank. If its a caster complaining, tell them to 'CC' it or tank it. If they compare you to the 'other BST' that was magically pulling singles, explain to them that its rare that you can consistantly pull singles and that you all should have no problem handling more than one mob at a time in camp - probably its a full group of 6 since they whine that way (the groups that will wait for half an hour to fill that last spot). And play in a way that makes them believe it.
I know how to do the pull technique that you are talkin about, but i do not think it is 100% legal. I would suggest that you just try to proximity agro mobs if you are the puller, and deal with multiple pulls. Bsts are not really meant to be pullers, and I dont wanna be responsible for spreading Sploit info. Just leave it at that, and know that you are pullin the correct way for a bst.
Lol, Gronk. :) Glad I used words like "it seems" and "I heard" in my post, and did not preach it as the truth. ;)
Anyway, I take it the "taunt" pull trick as I describe it isn't working?
Cheers!
Quote from: BulgeAnyway, I take it the "taunt" pull trick as I describe it isn't working?
Its never worked "as claimed" for me .. I have always felt like it yields the same results as if I proximity aggro (which, for whatever reason, seems a little different than if you zap the mob with a spell for pulling - maybe this is a good idea for mages though). I've heard people preach about it, and I've also laughed my butt off when another BST (who shall remain nameless) in LDoN was going to 'teach me' how much better it was and wiped his pet and himself out when 5 mobs came at him (which I had claimed would). Do you want call that working? And to get the pet to taunt within range of the mob without it actually attacking it can be an exercise in patience.
After trying so many different things out, I've almost completely stopped pet pulling as I can achieve similar/better results with proximity aggro (and then at least I'm getting hit not my poor pet) or just straight LoS zap'em pulling. The *only* time I think I bother with pet pulling is when the target is not in LoS and we've pacified a few mobs around for whatever reason - rare for sure - and even then I'm not 'taunt' pulling - its a pet contact pull. In fact I can't remember the last time I've done even that .. maybe 40 adventures ago?
Quote from: ZorthazI have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold.
How is it done?
I was in an LDON group with a Necromancer pulling the other day. I had always heard about the pet pulling techniquie, but I had never seen it used before this mission.
I don't have complete information about how to do this, but here is what I noticed and infer:
1. The necromancer was level 65 and had pet hold.
2. The necromancer was using a skeleton pet. I believe that this means it was a Luclin (spell level 59 or less) pet, as all the high end pets have the spectre graphic. I believe this also means that the pet does not have any type of fancy proc, it's just a melee type.
3. As far as I can tell, here is how it works:
-----Park pet out of attack/assist/aggro range.
-----Send pet in until it hits the mob in question.
-----As soon as possible after the pet's first hit, /pet hold the pet.
What *should* happen is that your pet walks back to where you parked it, and the mob beats on your pet until somebody peels it off. For most of the mission we got single pulls. I realize that a necromancer has FD and other neat tricks that he could use, but I didn't notice lots of delay between pulls that I normally associate with FD pulling.
I've not tried this yet as I don't have pet hold, but it seems straightforward enough. From what I understand, pulling using /pet hold is a semi-secret secret in the shadowknight community also. If anybody has any high-level SK friends, it may be worth asking them about it.
Gimrol
My SK friend claims that it works for SK pets because the pet is green to the mob being pulled. The other mobs won't assist in killing green pets. We could test this by summoning a lower lvl pet but then our pet would be totaly useless for DPS and pet mezzing.
Thank you, Gimrol. You said it so I didnt have to, hehe. They key is to use a lower level pet. Mobs will assist what you are tryin to pull if you send your lvl 64 spell pet on the mob. This is what almost every beastlord tries to do, when an SK tells him to just send his pet in, and then /pet hold as soon as it engages. That is exactly all that SK's have to do, since their best pet is such a low lvl anyways. The other key is that your pet MUST survive. If your pet dies, the agro will transfer to you, and all of the mobs will then assist, and you get a nice lil train. Now, what I want to know is, is this a exploit? If the general definition of exploit, is using somethin in game that it wasnt designed to do, then it just may be. I think that is why it is not really spoken about, because if attention is called to it, then they will fix it, if it is an exploit. I dont use this pull method, simply because the adventure groups I go in can easily handle 5 or more regular mobs with no crowd control np, so single pullin is a waste of time.
I like to have mobs lined up for the slaughter. Pull a few and CC them and then kill them one at a time.
Bard/Enchanter can mez. They can be rooted. They can be offtanked. It always seems to work in a good group which doesn't panic.
I have also found when I'm not the puller, if 2 come, I can cast my slow on the add and it comes straight to me so I or my warder can offtank.
Sounds like a panicy group to me.
I do LDONs constantly, and I will share some tips I have learned. I am always the puller, I am 65th level, and I also fill the role of MA on 99% of our LDONs. I am ranked currently 41st overall on the Server.
Pulling:
Always try to build a group with a cleric or chanter at least the same level as you. Make a Hotkey that is simply: "/t PacifyingPlayerName Assist and Pacify %T!" Make sure they are not using something like Wake of Tranquility. Now lets say your in Guk, or Ruj, where mobs are always hiding behind stuff. You go to a door, and hit F9. Four (five?) taps will give you a long view centered on your character. Spin the view around so your viewpoint is from the room your pulling. Pacify the one or two at the Doorway that were waiting to obliterate you. Step in, partition the pull with another pac (or two) and bring out your mob. Rinse-repeat. If you do this well, it takes less and less pacc'ing as the room is split and you distance mobs from assist radius.
Pet's Role (with a chanter in group):
I pull multiples, which is something you do often with a chanter, it is more time efficient and time is important in LDONs. I get aggro from 2+ mobs and pause in front of the group with my pet (pet is NOT /hold), as the mobs come to meet me one has been slowed already. They collide with you and your pet starts to attack. At this point your pet has just as much or more aggro on the other mobs that came to assist the slowed mob. You back off to the group with the one slowed mob and call assist. Your pet holds the other mob(s) for the chanter to mesmerize. (Things that help with this tactic is Mend Companion and Hastened Mending, this gives you LoH for your pet nearly every 8mins, and your Defensive AA's.)
/agree with one of the above posters.
If you're group can't handle more than one mob, finish the adv and find another group.
My advice it to make the group yourself. The best group I've had to date has been 2 65 bst (both with paragon), 65 necro, 65 mage, 65 wizzy and a 65 cleric. Make sure the Necro has group mana and lifetap spells. Of course this is referring to a normal type adv.
If you're doing hard, it has to start with Tank, Healer, CC and slower (BST :wink: )
Good point! With the pet offtanking, when the mez gets on, it is very rare that the pet breaks mez. In fact, I don't think mine ever has that I recall. If we are offtanking, you have to time things and stop attacking or you break mez.
There was a time... think it was pre-LDON, where pets were not working well with mez. Since that time however pets have been rocksolid on *not* breaking mez, even when using procing weapon and proc buffs. So pets make the best offtanks for a mezzing class. A beastlord that keeps their attack turned off, and uses their pet and slows dramatically helps any enchanter trying to get a hold of a bad pull.
If you think about it, 3 fully slowed (65%) mobs are equal to 1 unslowed mob melee damage-wise. (3 wizard mobs could be ugly though). So, slow itself is a form of crowd control when you consider that.
Quote from: MhordelI do LDONs constantly, and I will share some tips I have learned. I am always the puller, I am 65th level, and I also fill the role of MA on 99% of our LDONs. I am ranked currently 41st overall on the Server.
Pulling:
...
Pacify the one or two at the Doorway that were waiting to obliterate you. Step in, partition the pull with another pac (or two) and bring out your mob. Rinse-repeat.
Ouch. All that pacifying? I don't think I've run into one room under "normal" where you need more than 1 pacify to split the room into bite-sized chunks of 2-3. Thankfully, the recent pacify fix makes pacifying 4x (egads) for a single pull necessarily speedy - I've certainly had the pleasure on going with groups that feel the need to pacify every mob in sight. Play around more with how stuff aggros on pulls and pacify selectively when needed rather than always.
Imo, if you are pacifying more than 2 mobs on a pull, you might want to rethink your pulling strategy. If you are pacifying at all on more than half your pulls, ditto. Again, if your group can't handle 2 or 3 mobs in camp on every pull you are setting yourself up for a CR or a really, really long adventure. No matter how awesome you are at pulling, there is always a chance you get a bonus mob or two so it saves on wipes when your group has some plan to handle a bunch of mobs rather than expect one at a time and go into panic when more than one mob shows up.
I keep trying to convince people that "More mobs = better pull"...
...some are harder sells than others.
:wink:
Yup Scalewulf, I bet the dead people are the hardest to convince.
The really good groups pull 2 to 3 mobs at once, the BL drops pet onto the inc swarm to catch the two that were prox agroed, and goes to work slowing (the good BL has 2 slows loaded to get everything slowed to some extent faster even with resists)
The CC shuts down the mobs on the pet and any that agro over onto the BL, while the tank and other DPS work their mojo on the first target. Cleric keeps people breathing while the good BL has a finger ready to go on mend companion.
Voila, hard mission done in 50-60 minutes.
Normal mission is basically the same, but here the BL might as well pull, starting off with a slowed mob, grab the room full of mobs at once but otherwise follow the same basic tactic - or just charge into the room if you are particularly tank heavy.
Normal mission done in 20-30 minutes.
If you have no CC at all, dont do hard, but on normal just do the 2-3 pulls, no CC means you must have an extra person to play backup tank.
Oh - it helps to have the 200 odd AAs too.
Naturally, for every well played, dearly loved, carefully built toon you recruit for your group, there is an ebayed fool or PLed 'hollow' toon just waiting to suck up your points without giving back a fair contribution. You will spot this when what should be a cake walk turns into 120 minutes of hell. Luckilly, as a good BL, you can carry a party through a normal adventure as long as at least someone else is on the ball with healing.
And - WTF is up with pallies that not only wont heal ever during a mission, but dont even feel like stunning? Hello - I didn't get you in the group just cause you wear plate - warriors wear plate way better than you, but there werent any on line, so use some of that mana I am pumping out every 15 minutes.
I've started to make a habit out of 'learning' groups that are scared of multi-pulls in LDoN that it's actually much more efficient/fun than the old pacify/FD/single pulling method.
LDoN is actually perfect for this since trying to do this in any other circumstance would likely yield me a spot on someone's SL just after the group breaks up. In LDoN you're sort of forced to go along with what happens in order to avoid eatting a failure and getting no points and it's a fairly well known fact that even a crappy group can usually finish in 90 minutes (So long as it's not an assasinate or rescue, those require good groups to actually finish most of the time)
So, when Mr. Tank decides to take over pulling, or Mr. Monk is spending 5 minutes per pull, and either is griping about the number of MoBs clustered together I usually just jump in and start slowing... Quite often someone will scream 'ZONE!', but I'll just keep slowing, parking at least one with my warder and seperating any others from the one Mr. Tank decieded to start whacking. Most often some of the folks will see what's going on and starting rooting/mezing/snaring and the paniced ones will see that no one else is running and before you know it everything's dead.
Only once has this resulted in me being scolded and told to not do that again, the rest of the time the previous puller just sort of lets me continue without a word.
One of my favorite scenes was in Tak in one room where the room had two different routes to take. Mr. Tank pulls from one direction so we fight it at the door and migrate into that room, then Mr. Tank pulls from the OTHER door, gets 4, and promptly dies. 'ZONE!' he screams as I'm slowing, druid's rooting, myself, Kitty, and ranger are tanking... In not much more time than a normal pull for this group all four are dead without Mr. Tank there..... Mr. Tank runs back, zones in, and picks up his stuff, going off on how we're gonna have to be extra careful in that room since we'll get a lot. And even though everyone tells him we already killed everything in that room he still insists we all stand back and get ready to pacify/root/etc... I do wonder what the look on his face was when he saw the room was now empty.
LOL - Felidae
I'm the puller, pull with slow, pet park, slow next, slow next, slow next...
...the only people that die, which doesn't happen often, are the people that are stupid enough to go after a mob that has yet to be slowed.
I think I got it down pretty well, I have my choice of whom I want with me when I log on. :wink:
You start to get believers the one time you get 5 or 6 and have them all slowed in the time a shammy would have 3 slowed before biting the dust. Once they're all slowed, toss a paragon and go to work. Can just about be done with your eye's closed after that.
Quote3. As far as I can tell, here is how it works:
-----Park pet out of attack/assist/aggro range.
-----Send pet in until it hits the mob in question.
-----As soon as possible after the pet's first hit, /pet hold the pet.
The key thing is to be FD while doing this. Pets will aggro the mob but because the necro is "dead" the other mobs won't assist.
Quote from: AneyaMy SK friend claims that it works for SK pets because the pet is green to the mob being pulled. The other mobs won't assist in killing green pets. We could test this by summoning a lower lvl pet but then our pet would be totaly useless for DPS and pet mezzing.
An SK here.
that's the ticket. Using a pet that is green is how you pull singles constantly/consistently. As an SK/necro it's not so big of a deal to lose pet DPS(esp as an SK =)). If the pet is green to the mobs, you'll get singles everytime. Depending on 'what' youre pulling, buff your pet appropriately or it will dead and pull the room anyway.
Make sure to /guard it behind the actual group so the mob aggros you/another party member and doesn't kill the pet from your/someones inaction with the mob. Recasting/buffing pets is the sux.
I don't mind multi mob pulls at all. But, as noted, many groups don't want to work that way, and I've had bad results trying to "enlighten" unwilling pick up groups on this.
'Ah, this is interesting. Its very similar to a trick I used to use ages ago, in the early days of the FV server (and later, on Kayne Bayle). This is when the Warrens were hunted a lot - long before the days of the Beastlords. Pit Fighters were a bit of a pain - level 14ish, and tough as a truck, for the levels. Particularly since everyone was untwinked. They were next to impossible to split as well, being set up in pairs. The only way to split them, was to grab a little kobold runt (way green at 12-15 or so). Get the little sucker to attacking you, then edge toward the pit fighter you wanted. Eventually the big old tough pit fighter would run to assist his little pal - leaving the other pit fighter behind. You could then pull him up to kill him at leisure, then polish off the little kobold runt. This is just a trip down nostalgia lane, and has no real relation to the conversation, except to show that green assist/aggro has been around a looooong time.
Also, its very similar to what Fansy (the PvP bard) exploited in his famous rivervale slaughter/griefing on that PVP server. Venerable Haggatha Moles Troll Savage Lord FV')
I am always pulling, have been doing so since my 50's. I don't know if it's the zones I am fighting in, but I can almost always single pull a mobs with it's friends standing right next to them. How? I find that if I cast any of the Ice spells will pull the mobs without agroing anything else. Once the mob is far enough from it's friends I will send in my Warder. The real trick is if the mob is a caster. Then I have to just keep hitting Back so the Warder doesn't agro the friends. Funny thing is the with the lvl 62 Warder I can send him in to attack and the surrounding mobs will usually not agro unless I get close! I sometimes just send him around the zone killing :)
Quote from: KinashI am always pulling, have been doing so since my 50's. I don't know if it's the zones I am fighting in, but I can almost always single pull a mobs with it's friends standing right next to them. How? I find that if I cast any of the Ice spells will pull the mobs without agroing anything else. [\quote]
Really depends on the zone and the mob.
But to try and end the misinformation regarding which spell to cast for least aggro, all spells result in the same aggro results. Ice nuke, poison DoT, cancel magic, slow, whatever.
Quote
I was in an LDON group with a Necromancer pulling the other day. I had always heard about the pet pulling techniquie, but I had never seen it used before this mission.
I don't have complete information about how to do this, but here is what I noticed and infer:
1. The necromancer was level 65 and had pet hold.
2. The necromancer was using a skeleton pet. I believe that this means it was a Luclin (spell level 59 or less) pet, as all the high end pets have the spectre graphic. I believe this also means that the pet does not have any type of fancy proc, it's just a melee type.
3. As far as I can tell, here is how it works:
-----Park pet out of attack/assist/aggro range.
-----Send pet in until it hits the mob in question.
-----As soon as possible after the pet's first hit, /pet hold the pet.
I'll expand on how this works for a
necro. I do not have the pet AA's as a beastlord so I am not sure what level of BL pet this will work with. You will have to play around with the pets to figure that out. :)
1. You need to have the pet hold AA.
2. You need suspend minon 2 AA.
3. Summon and buff pet, then suspend it.
4. Summon the level 39 necro pet. (from what I have seen ONLY the level 39 pet will work for this)
5. Have pet follow you or pet guard you. Do not have the pet guard here. The reason for this is the pet will walk back to the spot you have it guarding rather than run back to you.
6. Send pet to attack the mob.
7. Soon as it hits the mob hit pet hold and pet back off. The pet will run back to you with the mob following it.
8. Soon as it gets back to you, cast suspend minon to recall suspended pet and hit pet get lost. The level 39 pet will suicide and your suspended pet will come out and attack the mob.
The pet will not agro any mobs in the area UNLESS the mob you are pulling has a pet of its own. If the mob has a pet, the pet attacking your pet WILL transfer agro to the other creatures in the area. The way around this is to have the pet pull all of the creatures in the area around the caster mob with the pet. Once all of those are dead, you can safely pull the mob that has a pet.
BTW, this is a great way to break and solo Drusilla in HS to complete the spirit wracked cords quest.
EDIT...Yes this might be an exploit...don't know for sure. I'm just explaining how it works :)
QuoteBut to try and end the misinformation regarding which spell to cast for least aggro, all spells result in the same aggro results. Ice nuke, poison DoT, cancel magic, slow, whatever.
I am not entirely sure that is true. Unless the same exact spell can have a different aggro effect dependant on the level of the caster (which may be true). I know that the aggro effect of sells are not consistant. I will often take guildies off and try and train them to single pull Grimlings in GF's Platforms. Often it will take them an hour to find the right spell to not pull the whole zone to them. Whereas I can single pull each and every mob without ever aggroing anything else. I had a Ranger try out almost a dozen spells before he found the one sell that allowed a single pull... (he had to put away his damn bow as the bow aggroed every Grimling in sight!)
Quote from: KinashQuoteBut to try and end the misinformation regarding which spell to cast for least aggro, all spells result in the same aggro results. Ice nuke, poison DoT, cancel magic, slow, whatever.
I am not entirely sure that is true.
I'll repeat myself once: it is.
Quote from: Kinash
Unless the same exact spell can have a different aggro effect dependant on the level of the caster (which may be true).
This is also true. Same with proximity aggro. Level is a major factor. Ever wonder why, as a newbie, every orc attacked you when you walked into their camp but when they are all quite green to you, you can brush their teeth and clip their nose hairs and they just stand there? How PLers will have their 65 toon pull green mobs singly for their PLees? A little observation goes a long way ...
Quote from: Vaddin
5. Have pet follow you or pet guard you. Do not have the pet guard here. The reason for this is the pet will walk back to the spot you have it guarding rather than run back to you.
Um.... I do not know of any pet guard me command...
Pet Guard (here)
Pet Backoff
Pet Die
Pet Attack
Pet Follow
Pet Taunt
what command am I missing?
There is also a /pet guard me command, it works the same as /pet follow.
You can also use /pet kill in place of /pet atack. :)
Tested the 39th level pet on my LDON last night, with Talisman and P09 (we dont use a cleric very oft). We are all 64/65th level, for reference.
It works about 80% of the time.
The 20% fail is if the pet gets smacked, stunned, and dies before he brings back your pull (out of assist range of other mobs) - you get all the assisting mobs.
All in all, though it works, it kinda sucks. You lose oodles of DPS and offtanking with the 39th level pet. And its a waste of mana and time to rebuff HP each pull on a NEW 39th level pull-pet.
IMO: This strat is good for splitting lower-assisting blue-cons as needed, but just is NOT going to help you on LDON 65th+ or LDON HARD.
I didnt try healing a pull pet while it was getting whacked, I *assumed* it would transfer heal aggro to me, but I suppose I need to test that too. If I could heal in INC pet with a mob, without getting aggro for it, would make it much more viable.
On a hard run, that might be worthwhile for the time spent. But to me, on the normal, it just is not. Pulling 2-4 is the norm for most of the groups that I am in.
And on a "hard" a green pet ----->FP.
As far as agro on spells, maybe it changed. But, when I was playing my shaman, I could single pull The Froglok Kings guards solo, then get him. Ditto pulling Emp Chottal. I pulled both with annul, where as Turgurs got me much love. This was in the Kunark error, and I know for a fact in some situations I could get singles with annul & not other spells. No clue if things have changed, of when if they did.
You'd probably have to be sure to use Spirit of the Shrew on the lower level pet (I always use that on my pets anyway) to prevent it from dying so fast.
Still, that can be a useful strat in certan situations, if not during LDoN. Thanks for the information :)