Our complaint about Promised Rejuvenation is resolved, as it's now an upgrade over Promised Recovery. Rank 2 or 3 of Promised Mending are now the most mana-efficient heals left in the line, although that's not the only consideration of course.
Level 73 Promised Mending: BST only
Rank 1: 400 mana for 8500 healed
Rank 2: 400 mana for 9500 healed
Rank 3: 400 mana for 10500 healed
Level 78 Promised Recovery: BST/MAG (Before 10/29/08: BST only)
Rank 1: 516 mana for 10069 healed (428 mana for 10450 healed)
Rank 2: 539 mana for 10926 healed (488 mana for 12350 healed)
Rank 3: 554 mana for 11500 healed (520 mana for 13300 healed)
Level 83 Promised Rejuvenation: BST/MAG
Rank 1: 557 mana for 11583 healed
Rank 2: 582 mana for 12563 healed
Rank 3: 598 mana for 13221 healed
so not only did they lower the previous version heal amount and jacked the mana up....they added mages too it. Well more reason for a 2 hit prism skin recourse and maybe a mage specific insano pet buff for our warder. I'd never ask for the weapons of course.
This is a joke right? How does this guy have a job?
Lame.
Well, if you into that kind of stuff it must be good. Prathuun obviously receives regular mage guests in his brown saloon which leaves him pretty satisfied. To keep his mage friends satisfied as well he listens to their advise. Most obvious of course Tulisin, Mindrix, Koz (Rahzeael on soe boards).
Quote from: Denti on November 02, 2008, 04:51:14 PM
Well, if you into that kind of stuff it must be good. Prathuun obviously receives regular mage guests in his brown saloon which leaves him pretty satisfied. To keep his mage friends satisfied as well he listens to their advise. Most obvious of course Tulisin, Mindrix, Koz (Rahzeael on soe boards).
Yeah except Tulisin, Mindrix, Koz and Rahzeael have all been fighting with us to get our pet better.
Did you read beta boards? They did, provided our pets were max a bit less than half as good as mage pets. Besides, this is about a real big spell nerfage to us, which was heavily lobbied for by mages.
yes i read the beta boards, on the pet part Tulisin agreed our pet should be as good as the 76 air pet, which would be a huge upgrade over what we have now. as far as everything else? burn em all, but it is the mages publicly and openly complaining and beasts doing very little about it. we need to take it to the public on soe boards.
Quote from: Nusa on November 02, 2008, 11:14:34 AM
Level 78 Promised Recovery: BST only(on live at this time) (Before 10/29/08: BST only)
Rank 1: 516 mana for 10069 healed (428 mana for 10450 healed)
Rank 2: 539 mana for 10926 healed (488 mana for 12350 healed)
Rank 3: 554 mana for 11500 healed (520 mana for 13300 healed)
But they might add it to mages later on.
Unless they have a seperate vendor that the mages claim to have not found yet.
Mages are not included on our version of the spell at this time on Erollisi Marr. It is BST only.
Below the relevant post from Tulisin, shows pretty much his attitude about pet power. And yes, mages lobbied extensively to get our promised line instead of just lobbying to get Minax Mending (which would be appropriate) or a plain better straight pet heal. And that alone, the fact that mages got added to a pure beastlord heal spell, is just completely wrong. In every respect. Even more so as beastlords got only a nerf stick for their pet in return while mages got a real big power boost all over, they can parse as high as 7 to 8k dps nowadays on burn mobs.
QuoteTigarri wrote:
QuoteTulisin_Dragonflame wrote:
No, mage pets should be superior in every respect.
I still believe that the all-around magician pet should be superior in every way *before buffs/gear/AA* to the beastlord warder.
If the all-around pet is identical to the beastlord warder, what, then, makes the mage pet noticeably superior to the beastlord warder as it should be?
It just doesn't work, mage pets have to be universally the best.
I don't understand this logic. Why don't you just rename us to "SmallCreatureLord"? I have never understood the "Mages are THE pet class" arguement. Is it because of beastlord "utility" that you feel this way? Survivability?
As far as I can tell, mages have better utility, better dps (both pet and personal), and better survivability (in the form of a major tank pet.)
It would be easy for me to make statements like:
"Beastlord warders should be offensively superior to EVERY mage pet because they are 'beasts'."
But, I don't honestly believe that statement. I just think that the "mage pets HAVE to be better" arguement is silly. Now, if you want to say that one of your pets should be the best offensive pet, another should be the best defensive pet, etc...that makes SOME sense. To have ALL of your pets better in every way than ALL other pets is just greedy.
Lore/RP reasoning never works out, it can be bent any way you want it to bend. The reason mages are "*the* pet class" is the same reason anyone else is any "*the* XXXX class": tradition. Wizards have always been the best nukers (or at least intended to be, barring bugs), clerics the best healers, warriors the best tanks. I don't know why people feel the "best pets" slot is any more up for grabs than those.
And yes, there is some measure of pride there. A polling of the magician community shows that that half of mages picked the class because we have the best pets. Our morale, our defensive strength, our offensive strength, everything, as a class, rides completely on the strength of our pets. To take that away is to take away the mage class' identity.
Quote from: Vidyne on November 03, 2008, 05:25:48 AM
But they might add it to mages later on.
Unless they have a seperate vendor that the mages claim to have not found yet.
Mages are not included on our version of the spell at this time on Erollisi Marr. It is BST only.
You've got half a point there...you're right that there's no scroll for Mages to scribe it with yet. However, the Mage class was still added to the spell itself, which is a pretty clear indication of intent.
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I agree that they need a boost, that is pretty pitiful.
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Enokhaon-Innoruuk wrote:
Yeah, what the heck. I understand BL pets tanking worse than a mage pet since the BL has slow (HAD better healing) and the BL can step in to tank, but shouldn't BL and mage pets put out similar damage output?
Enok
No, mage pets should be superior in every respect. That said, there's *a lot* of room to boost beastlord pets without stepping on mage pet toes.
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Enokhaon-Innoruuk wrote:
How was ''similar damage'' interpreted as mage pets not remaining superior? It was a nice way of saying ''not suck so badly.''
Enok
I interpreted "similar" as the warder being basically on par offensively with the lowest DPS mage pet. I have no problems with 80 %~ though. I agree that they're certainly too low as-is.
Message edited by Tulisin_Dragonflame on 10/06/2008 09:22:17.
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Shamno wrote:
Prism skin for beastlords should be raised too match mages by now anyhoo. Both should have gotten the increase at the same time.
If promised was put back in an upgrade progression for beastlord in SoD and our prism skin was set too match 2 hits, then I don't care if Aegis gets the boost too match ours. Heck I don't think I care if mages get spell bulwark line.
I think we can all agree that there needs to be parity here. Beastlords need a 2-hit recourse on their prism skin, and the aegis line for necros/mages needs to match the beastlord version again (it stopped doing so all of the sudden last expansion, probably an oversight). Beastlords already had a +1 last expansion on everyone else, and are getting another +3 while the other two classes remain without upgrade at the moment.
I do not agree that beastlords need an 800 DPS sustained warder though, or even one that is a carbon-copy of the air pet. I still believe that the all-around magician pet should be superior in every way *before buffs/gear/AA* to the beastlord warder.
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Dummkopf wrote:
And yes, there is some measure of pride there. A polling of the magician community shows that that half of mages picked the class because we have the best pets. Our morale, our defensive strength, our offensive strength, everything, as a class, rides completely on the strength of our pets. To take that away is to take away the mage class' identity.
Guess what, many beastlords thought the same about our pet healing abilities. It was taken away this expansion. Quid pro quo in my opinion. Do the same to pet power balancing you did to pet heal balancing.
Even worse, at the moment mages are in terms of pet power what berserkers are to other melees in terms of pure dps. And the gap is widening instead of closing down.
By all means, close the gap. Necromancers and beastlords shouldn't be miles behind, they just shouldn't be on an even footing.
do i need to post more? Tulisin is in favor of better pets for beasts, mages SHOULD be better at pets as that is thier roles and always has been long before beasts ever showed up. The healing they got was not "ours" truely anyway but should they have gotten it? Depends on your pride i suppose.
Quote from: Obsessedwith on November 03, 2008, 01:08:52 PM
The healing they got was not "ours" truely anyway but should they have gotten it?
How can you say the Promised line was not ours? It was the only pet only Delayed heal, not the biggest one, the only pet based delayed heal and was BST only. And no I don't think they should have gotten it, considering how many times I have seen mages say that they should have defnesively better pets BECAUSE we can heal ours better. Well guess what? they can heal as well as we can now, while having a MUCH stronger pet in everyway.
We lost our healing advantage over them, so we should get pet boosted in other ways to make up for it, btw even if our pets tanked as well as theirs base, would still not mean we were equal, there is that little spell Earthen Stance, a little defensive that can be kept on pet up, mage only.
DPS wise? even base damage being the same we would not be over them, considering Frenzied Burnout is a disc for their pet and going from just spell data will do more then our Empathic Fury will.
I keep seeing that if a mages pet dies they will not survive, well from what I have seen if the mob is bad enough to kill off a mage pet, it will tear through us easier since we don't have 5k heals and 10k delayed heals we can cast on ourselves. With suspend minion if mages first pet dies and they have another, they can pop it out and have a chance to gate at the least, us? we pop out second pet watch it die in seconds with gate still needing another 5 sec to go off.
Our pets should not be 1/3rd the DPS or 1/3rd the tanking of mage pets, should be base closer to 70% on both, that is base, before their extra agility and stability pet AAs kick in (they get ranks we don't) or before their Earthen Stance spell.
I am so tired of mages being pampered to while bst class slides into stupidly nerfed garbage. We are bst lords, we center AROUND our pets, the pets are half of us, and we are geared spell wise and aa wise to TEND these pets. Yet the pet is so flipping weak, i cant do jack crap with it at all. It dies too fast, it does crap dps. It's a joke. I created bst becuse i enjoy tanking along with my pet and having the ability to heal him efficiently, not have me tank both mobs and both of us get raped before a now useless promised spell fires even WITH a frigging cleric merc chaining fast heals.
Bst need lv 76 air pet quality or better to survive, not some piece of crap dot pet that doesn't have any reason to even be casted as it implodes on impact of anything hitting it.
what are you trying to tank that he dies on?
Just for some clarity.
EVERYTHING!!!
Fos trash, library trash. Kith trash, every trash. Trash the pet SHOULD NOT be dying so bloody fast to. It's got no defense, no damage, and is frustrating.
The mobs are only hitting 2.6k, slow is naturaly migitated to worthlessness. *I* am tanking 100% better then this pos pet. When I get 2 mobs on a pull, he cant do his half of the work and dies, then i die.
A weak pet, combined with an even weaker doom heal = path for disaster.
Ah, those mobs are beyond me, so I haven't noticed.
He's been doing well tanking the 2000 hitters in Kithicor, which he tanks better than I do.
If you use the lv 77 or whatever warder, it tanks better. Using the 83 pet it tanks worse. We went backwards. We are so far behind, we have arrived at yesterday.
I'm still trying to verify that our 78 pet does worse than the 83 pet.. Haven't found a time to set up with another Beastlord to test them in a duel. Need to find a good testing group as well, but they removed parsing dummies from test.
Quote from: Vidyne on November 03, 2008, 07:37:39 PM
I'm still trying to verify that our 78 pet does worse than the 83 pet.. Haven't found a time to set up with another Beastlord to test them in a duel. Need to find a good testing group as well, but they removed parsing dummies from test.
Why did they remove test dummies?
your guess is as good as mine
If somebody on Luclin wants to do this, I'm game.
I could fight you on test sometime :)
I was max aa before SoD, have an EM 1 focus. Haven't bought any pet AA since SoD.
Quote from: Camikazi on November 03, 2008, 01:55:51 PM
Quote from: Obsessedwith on November 03, 2008, 01:08:52 PM
The healing they got was not "ours" truely anyway but should they have gotten it?
How can you say the Promised line was not ours? It was the only pet only Delayed heal, not the biggest one, the only pet based delayed heal and was BST only. And no I don't think they should have gotten it, considering how many times I have seen mages say that they should have defnesively better pets BECAUSE we can heal ours better. Well guess what? they can heal as well as we can now, while having a MUCH stronger pet in everyway.
We lost our healing advantage over them, so we should get pet boosted in other ways to make up for it, btw even if our pets tanked as well as theirs base, would still not mean we were equal, there is that little spell Earthen Stance, a little defensive that can be kept on pet up, mage only.
DPS wise? even base damage being the same we would not be over them, considering Frenzied Burnout is a disc for their pet and going from just spell data will do more then our Empathic Fury will.
I keep seeing that if a mages pet dies they will not survive, well from what I have seen if the mob is bad enough to kill off a mage pet, it will tear through us easier since we don't have 5k heals and 10k delayed heals we can cast on ourselves. With suspend minion if mages first pet dies and they have another, they can pop it out and have a chance to gate at the least, us? we pop out second pet watch it die in seconds with gate still needing another 5 sec to go off.
Our pets should not be 1/3rd the DPS or 1/3rd the tanking of mage pets, should be base closer to 70% on both, that is base, before their extra agility and stability pet AAs kick in (they get ranks we don't) or before their Earthen Stance spell.
It was clerics to begin with
They came out atthe same time...at least I coulda swore they did....
Quote
It was clerics to begin with
Came out same time actually, same level for both Clerics and Beastlords too. if you wanted to use that argument, you could say SE isn't ours and should be given out since chanters has regen first. We had the only, pet only Delayed Heal, it WAS ours only. Being the only WIS class based pet class means we should heal better then necros or mages, just like they will always outnuke and outDoT us since they are INT classes.
With that healing advantage gone, our pets DPS and Tanking disadvantages should be lowered as well, since that was a primary reason to keep our pets down anyway. I still say Minax heal should be the one given to Necros and Mages, long cast time suits a mostly caster class better anyway, and Promised should have stayed Beastlord only.
Quote from: Camikazi on November 04, 2008, 08:41:02 AM
Quote
It was clerics to begin with
Came out same time actually, same level for both Clerics and Beastlords too. if you wanted to use that argument, you could say SE isn't ours and should be given out since chanters has regen first. We had the only, pet only Delayed Heal, it WAS ours only. Being the only WIS class based pet class means we should heal better then necros or mages, just like they will always outnuke and outDoT us since they are INT classes.
With that healing advantage gone, our pets DPS and Tanking disadvantages should be lowered as well, since that was a primary reason to keep our pets down anyway. I still say Minax heal should be the one given to Necros and Mages, long cast time suits a mostly caster class better anyway, and Promised should have stayed Beastlord only.
I woulnd't ask Minaz in its current setup on anyone. Cast time is too long. Instant cast time maybe. Sure it be kind of like a promised heal but the difference will be there.
Lower cast time Minaz would have still been better then anything Necros or Mages had, and still left us being the best pet healers. i still say it would have been better for them then giving Mages our Promised line.
Me and a guildy beast with the same pet focus and AA's have dueled unbuffed warders (SoF vs SoD) before. SoF warder won with roughly 50% hp left.
Edit: To clarify, this is with Enhanced minion 4 and SoF pet aa's maxed - lacking SoD pet aa's.
We will do the test a few more times later, I'll post an average % health of SoF warder when SoD dies.
Try it without focus items
I bet SoD will be closer.
I don't think SoD gets as much from focus items, and I also don't think he has defensive skills/accuracy anywhere near SoF to begin with.
Thats a good idea, will give it a try with unfocused pets later. Upon further runs with Enhanced Minion IV, SoF warder won with an average of ~44% hp left. This is after plowing rage, thought it didnt seem to make much of a difference.