The original epics were an after thought thrown into eq during the second expansion of kunnark. The first epic in the game was for a paladin sword that had a flaming aura to it. SoE saw the popularity of that quest and created one for all the other classes, and epics came to be. They were not originally listed as a feature of kunnark.
Now 8 expansions after the original everquest we are given epics 2.0 as a listed and advertised 'feature' of the recent expansion: Omens of War. The expansion promised the creation of these quests but failed to disclose that all of the 7 prior expansions would be required to complete the quest. Sony did state on at least one occasion that the final battle would take place in omens, but made no refrences to the rest of the quest. The Omens box states that it requires the original Everquest but again makes no refrence to needing any other expansions to fully utilize its features.
Im not a legal expert, anyone out there know more about the law then I do able to tell me that this isnt false advertising?
I'm not an expert in legal things in any way, but I sorta guessed ahead of time that the epics would involve just about every expansion (probably not LDoN, though, but they could do it, I guess).
The very word kinda just tells you its gonna be pretty grand in its scope and for it to be as big a deal as it is you'd have to be traveling to the ends of the earth (like LoY, heh) to be finding the pieces.
I guess it won't be quite a sting to me, though, since I've bought every expansion as they came out. But those who only own a few and all of a sudden have to buy 3 or more, yeah, that will be the suck. :(
There isn't any legal ground. Basically Sony can't be held liable for assumptions that you made. Though it wasn't stated on the box that all expansions were necessary, it also doesn't state they aren't.
At best, you might argue your way into a refund, which is pretty much their limit of liability anyway. Of course, you are liable to lose your OOW access if you go that route.
No, I don't think you have a stance towards SOE at all. Planes of Power did not come out stating you would have to join a ubah guild to see the endgame, yet you pretty much have to to see the endgame. I think that your opinon that you should be able to buy one expansion and expect it to be a complete game in itself is wrong. It is just that, an expansion. You have a house, and add a bathroom. You gonna be pissed that the toilet and shower doesn't work because you didn't buy plumbing for the original house for you to hook into? Did you need to be told that the bathroom would not work if you did not add water lines to the addition? To me it is common sense that you need to buy the expansions for Everquest to fully experience all of Everquest. Just like I had to accept the fact that yes I did buy PoP, but I was gonna have to work at getting flagged to see the endgame of PoP. The statement that you need original EQ to play Omens just points out that Omens is only an expansion, not the full software to run Everquest.
QuoteNo, I don't think you have a stance towards SOE at all. Planes of Power did not come out stating you would have to join a ubah guild to see the endgame, yet you pretty much have to to see the endgame. I think that your opinon that you should be able to buy one expansion and expect it to be a complete game in itself is wrong. It is just that, an expansion. You have a house, and add a bathroom. You gonna be pissed that the toilet and shower doesn't work because you didn't buy plumbing for the original house for you to hook into? Did you need to be told that the bathroom would not work if you did not add water lines to the addition? To me it is common sense that you need to buy the expansions for Everquest to fully experience all of Everquest. Just like I had to accept the fact that yes I did buy PoP, but I was gonna have to work at getting flagged to see the endgame of PoP. The statement that you need original EQ to play Omens just points out that Omens is only an expansion, not the full software to run Everquest.
Where to start with this comment...
QuotePlanes of Power did not come out stating you would have to join a ubah guild to see the endgame, yet you pretty much have to to see the endgame.
First off "high-end" content is a person's opinion. To me PoTatics could be high end, where PoTime is for you. Second of all, PoP didn't have any specific equipment advertised on the site/box to try to sell the expansion. Thirdly, in order to progress through PoP they didn't require you to kill/quest whatever in another expansion (Luclin/Velious/whatever), so when you bought PoP and only had maybe the orginal game and kunark you could still experience the whole expansion if you put forth the time/effort.
QuoteI think that your opinon that you should be able to buy one expansion and expect it to be a complete game in itself is wrong.
No, I think he expects to be able to do what is advertised when buying the expansion...it's that simple.
QuoteYou have a house, and add a bathroom. You gonna be pissed that the toilet and shower doesn't work because you didn't buy plumbing for the original house for you to hook into? Did you need to be told that the bathroom would not work if you did not add water lines to the addition? To me it is common sense that you need to buy the expansions for Everquest to fully experience all of Everquest.
You are comparing "common sense" knowledge from years and years of practice (building homes and what it takes for them to run properly), to a game. If you want a comparison to go on, how about you go to a new car dealership and see this nice brand spanking new car you have been looking for. So you buy it right off the show room floor and get ready to take it out for a test drive. It starts up fine and you start to shift into first when all of a sudden you can't shift gears. Getting quite upset you go back to the sells guy and ask him why can't you get the full experience from something you just paid for, and he responds "Well it's common sense you need a transmission for a car to go". Now when you went to buy the car you expected it to come with certain things (aka be complete and ready to go) and nothing you saw when buying it said otherwise, but all of a sudden what you just bought isn't complete unless you buy "opinional" components. That is very bad business procedures and I'm sure you would be mighty pissed off if that happened...this is the same thing just on a smaller scale.
Yeah, it's "common sense" that you need all expansions to experience the entire game of EverQuest completely...but if you got an expansion it should be "common sense" that you should be able to experience THAT expansion fully without having prior EXPANSIONS.
Didn't epic 1.0 require access to different expansions? If so then 1.5 and 2.0 would be assumed to do the same as they are the next versions. I know the BST epic did because BST were added in an expansion.
I think a legal batlle would be hard to win and not sure you would get much even if you did. Its not likely a court would force them to give out epics as the terms of a lawsuit or have an optional 1 expansion only option to complete it. I would hate to see that version of the process.
Epic 1.0 (for the original classes) was implemented in Kunark, which WAS the first expansion, so obviously the issue didn't come up. The beastlord epic 1.0 was implemented as part of the Luclin expansion, also requiring Kunark access to complete -- I honestly don't remember what the box said about required expansions. And I don't know what the berserker epic requires...
epic 1.0 wasnt advertised on the box, as original post stated. It was an after thought thrown in when the realized the popularity of the paladin super quest and gave one to all classes. Beastlord epic was additional and also non-advertised part of luclin which included kunnark. That made sense since all prior epics included kunnark, i have utterally no idea whats involved in the zerker epic.
As for the plumbing your analogy isnt accurate. Consider this instead, you hire a plumber for running water, he installs it and gives you the bill. You turn the faucet on but nothing happens. Call the plumber back and are told, oh you also need to buy another 7 secondary products for the water to work and you have an accurate analogy.
I've written sony about this and they have declined to respond. My intentions from here out are quite simple. Im cancelling my account (which wont go dead until november) and moving to worlds of warcraft (which i hope to be out by then) to get away from SoE. I'm am not leaving eq just over this but this is definatly the straw that broke the camels proverbial back.
:roll:
Gee, I woulda never thunk I needed the whole game!
Of all the things to cry over: a quest that isn't even completed yet. I could see someone complaining about the quest mobs in LoY. After all, that was a downloaded "extension" as opposed to a full-fledged expansion. But you are complaining about not having what is (imo) one of the better expansions, after the fixes. Especially with the lv 70 cap, guilds will be able to progress easier into GoD.
Grymlok: I dont own gates, nor do i feel as though i should be required to pay an extra charge to gain access to a featured advertised element of omens.
Well, they did their part. Epics 1.5/2.0 are in the game. Whether you can reach the content that it sends you to because you don't have the entire game is another story.
Expansions aren't a game by themselves, they are an add-on.
Thank you Kerryn, you nailed what I tried to explain and seems I failed miserably...hehe. It is an expansion, not the entire game. For you to complain and quit because you expected epic 2.0 to be completely within OoW is ridiculous in my opinion. Or are you saying that it should be obtainable with EQ Original and OoW? Seems to me you are asking alot in return for your minimal investment. As for the person that used the car as an analogy, it is worse then mine if anything. You say you bought a car and the saleman did not mention you needed a transmission. Well, OoW is an expansion, not the core game. Where as a transmission is a part of the car, not the whole car. I think it is common sense, you need all the expansions to experience EQ for all its worth. If you choose not to buy them all, then you choose not to experience them all.
Legal? Hahahahaha!
Pasted all over the EULA, and everywhere else is something along the lines of, "Game and content subject to change."
Ban frivoulous litigation!
QuoteThe Omens box states that it requires the original Everquest but again makes no refrence to needing any other expansions to fully utilize its features.
The Omens box doesn't say anything about your needing Luclin to start the beastlord epic either, but did you honestly believe that you wouldn't need Luclin to do the quest, particularly when you need Luclin to make a beastlord in the first place?
Similarly, our first epic quest required every expansion at the time (except velious), so when new "epic quest" is advertised, what would lead you to believe that it wouldn't involve more than one expansion?
QuoteI've written sony about this and they have declined to respond. My intentions from here out are quite simple. Im cancelling my account (which wont go dead until november) and moving to worlds of warcraft (which i hope to be out by then) to get away from SoE. I'm am not leaving eq just over this but this is definatly the straw that broke the camels proverbial back.
If this is all it took, then you were itching to leave EQ anyway.
Enjoy your pipe dream of WoW though. Hope you love dealing with the battle.net kiddies preventing you from doing anything meaningful.
Quote from: TerjynPovarQuoteI've written sony about this and they have declined to respond. My intentions from here out are quite simple. Im cancelling my account (which wont go dead until november) and moving to worlds of warcraft (which i hope to be out by then) to get away from SoE. I'm am not leaving eq just over this but this is definatly the straw that broke the camels proverbial back.
If this is all it took, then you were itching to leave EQ anyway.
Enjoy your pipe dream of WoW though. Hope you love dealing with the battle.net kiddies preventing you from doing anything meaningful.
BNet kiddies and all, I enjoyed myself more on the WoW stress test than I did the
vast majority of my time in EQ.
Quote from: TerjynPovarEnjoy your pipe dream of WoW though. Hope you love dealing with the battle.net kiddies preventing you from doing anything meaningful.
Christ on a bike Terjyn, we get the point. You don't like WoW after trying it on the stress test for two minutes, as you've said in another post.
If you're going to be bitter and twisted about your experience, speak to a rl friend about it, if you have contructive critisism which amounts to more than "it sucks" use the WoW forum. There's lot's of use who value negative opinions on stuff if it's written without the poison.
But it's acceptable to see thousands of posts worshipping WoW, a game that hasn't even come out yet?
Where are you telling those people to tone it down?
Pure hypocrisy.
Quote from: TerjynPovarBut it's acceptable to see thousands of posts worshipping WoW, a game that hasn't even come out yet?
It's been in open beta for about 6 months now - while there's still lots to be changed about it, it's very solid apparently. As well as me seeing thousands of posts praising WoW, I've seen (admittedly not thousands)posts saying it sucks. But people have always said why it's good or it sucks. At least list your reasons on why it sucks. Whilst I'll agree with you - the original poster was just looking for an excuse to leave EQ, the pipe dream jibe was unnecessary.
To say you've only played it for two minutes means to me you haven't even got to grips with the UI, let alone the quests or battle system. You state "for one reason or another, it will be the biggest flop in gaming history" - so don't be surprised when I don't believe you've even played it, let alone given it a chance.
Quote from: TerjynPovarWhere are you telling those people to tone it down?
If you are referring to other posters on this board who don't like WoW, at least they've given it a chance, and said why they don't like it. I don't care one way or another if everyone here hated it - good. I look forward to reading why and gleaning information from them on how their dislikes may or may not be mine. I've only played it briefly months ago and I live in the UK - the stress test wasn't available to Europe according to Fileplant, thus positive or negative, I'm eager to see people's opinions.
Quote from: TerjynPovarPure hypocrisy.
It wasn't meant to be. I'm sorry if you feel that way. If you want to say why it's gonna flop, by all means you're welcome. However, after playing it for two minutes any WoW commentary from you I'd take with a hefty grain of salt. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not trying to single you out, I'm trying to find out why.
Personally, I don't consider it to be a big deal. If you can't afford 50 bucks for all the expansion then I don't see why you'd put all the time into the epic 1.0/1.5/2.0.
Anybody who is this far advanced in the game has spend thosands of hours wasting time in the game that could have be easily been spent working. If you don't have the time or cash to get the expansions needed then you really dont have much use playing the game at the endgame.
I played WoW far more than 2 minutes Lorathir, I'm too much of a hardcore gamer not to have...and I believe my original post said "a few minutes", not two. I tend to use church minutes (if you'll forgive the phrase) to describe how long I play video games. :)
The main reason I didn't like WoW is everytime I was attempting to do a quest the quest guys would be surrounded by hordes of the Battle.net kiddie types who would pounce on every single quest mob that popped...and due to WoW's system of how mobs are locked by the first hit I was simply screwed. Now I could go somewhere else, but for a quest driven game I found that pretty unacceptable...and I certainly don't believe there will be less of these people post-release. Now this may change.
The pipedream comment and the hypocrisy comment may have both been uncalled for I admit, but I get so sick of seeing post after post after post worshipping a game that hasn't done anything yet...and then I make a whopping 2 negative posts and get a level of vitriol I certainly didn't expect.
Quoteand I certainly don't believe there will be less of these people post-release. Now this may change.
You were playing during the stress test. The servers were massively overpopulated on purpose. You shouldn't see that kind of player saturation on servers when the game goes live.
Quote from: TerjynPovarThe main reason I didn't like WoW is everytime I was attempting to do a quest the quest guys would be surrounded by hordes of the Battle.net kiddie types who would pounce on every single quest mob that popped...and due to WoW's system of how mobs are locked by the first hit I was simply screwed.
There's a question mark hanging over WoW for me re-the bnet crowd. Could be a game breaker imo. The npc lockout sucks and will be a pain in the rear end on WoW's release. Thanks for the info on that.
Quote from: TerjynPovarNow I could go somewhere else, but for a quest driven game I found that pretty unacceptable...and I certainly don't believe there will be less of these people post-release. Now this may change.
Fingers crossed.
Quote from: TerjynPovarand then I make a whopping 2 negative posts and get a level of vitriol I certainly didn't expect.
I thought I smelled BS and called you on it. In return, you presented me with your reasons and duly proved me wrong. The fact that you won't be playing WoW is Blizzards loss Terjyn.
QuoteYou were playing during the stress test. The servers were massively overpopulated on purpose. You shouldn't see that kind of player saturation on servers when the game goes live.
People said the same thing about the Diablo 2 stress test...and when the game went live it went UP in players by a factor of 5...this is just how popular Blizzard games are. I don't have any doubt whatsoever that WoW will be even more packed on opening day than it was during the stress test.
Well, I seriously, seriously hope that they fix that particular issue and then I may try again. :)
I think it will be exactly the same way when WoW goes live, for at least the first couple weeks and maybe for a month. Everyone will be starting from level 1 and everyone will be doing the same newbie quests. If you remember when EQ started it was hard sometimes to find a giant rat to kill in the newb areas (the newbie areas I saw weren't that much greater then the rats and bats area of Freeport or Qeynos) :P Of course if you just wait a few weeks to buy it this problem should be solved, but then of course you aren't at the top of the progression.
I've already posted in the WoW forum why I have no plans to buy it, so won't bore you with that again.
Wow, what a derail.
Well, I started the WoW stress tess the Sunday after it begin (started on thursday of that week), and I personally ran into none of the problems he described. In the course of the week I had to play I brought my Night Elf Hunter to lv21. And the best xp in the game is the quest system (which is absolutely fabulous), so I obviously didnt have a problem with the "b.net" kiddies. In fact, I know quite a few former EQ players that I hung out with during the test.
I will admit that on the opening day, I heard horror stories about how packed the newbie zones were, but duh, it was the first day. If you are worried about packed zones wait a week or two for the levels to spread out.
Wow, nice derail guys! Didn't even see that one coming...
(http://www.sotguild.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/spanishsign.gif)
Like Grymlok, I had no problems questing in WoW. I even started playing on the second day of the stress test. Didn't have to look hard for quest mobs as long as you know where to look.
Well, the main reason it really annoyed me is that it's not like it was other people who still needed the quest who was doing this, it was people who were just screwing with you. People way higher in level, or people who you could 100% guarantee had already done the quest in the past (they already had the reward for instance).
This is why I thought of the battle.net mentality, because a whole lot of the battle.netters playing Diablo 2 will screw with you just because they can, not even because it helps them in any way.
This is still a derail but...
Kind of related to that, one thing that bothered me on the stress tests were the names. Now I am not one of those people who feels every name must be a fantasy name and everyone else should be banned, but names like xxxISLAYUxxx or names with profanity turn we way off. I hear they implemented a naming filter after the stress test :wink:
Yes, the names were one of the things I didn't like and you're right. They reworked their naming policy after the stress test. Along with all the normal stuff you'd expect now you can't use names that contain Partial or Complete Sentences, Pure Gibberish, Real World References, "Leet" or "Dudespeak", or Titles now.
If there's one good thing that came of the stress test it was that.
Sometimes I think it would be a good idea for developers to have the balls to create a game where you had to go with a computer-generated character name. Problem solved, but at the expense of not being called exactly what you wanted. Kinda like in rl really :P
Quote from: feralizeSometimes I think it would be a good idea for developers to have the balls to create a game where you had to go with a computer-generated character name.
I agree entirely.
Quote from: LorathirQuote from: feralizeSometimes I think it would be a good idea for developers to have the balls to create a game where you had to go with a computer-generated character name.
I agree entirely.
Used to play Dragonrealms, and they had a problem with the character setup server being spammed with people trying to get one particular facial feature that could only pop up at random on one race. I can't imagine how bad the spam would be with every subscriber spamming the character creation process trying to get a cool name. :?
Have the character name creation client side. When a player decides on a name only then do you need to access the server-side part. You could even have it so that every time you logged in a list of already-taken names would be transferred to the client so no duplicates would be created client-side.
QuoteHave the character name creation client side.
I think UO, EQ, AC and AO have all demonstrated what a bad idea it is to have anything happen client side except communication with the server. I estimate the time elapsed between putting name creation on the client side in an MMORPG and the first character named '3133TG0D' appearing at about a week.
Quote from: KebrarnPersonally, I don't consider it to be a big deal. If you can't afford 50 bucks for all the expansion then I don't see why you'd put all the time into the epic 1.0/1.5/2.0.
Anybody who is this far advanced in the game has spend thosands of hours wasting time in the game that could have be easily been spent working. If you don't have the time or cash to get the expansions needed then you really dont have much use playing the game at the endgame.
No kidding. The "original" everquest isn't even available in stores here. All you can get is Platinum edition for $29.99 (all 7 expansions pre-OOW).
At first I was thinking, "how stupid can people be? did they really think the epic wouldn't include all other expansions?" Well, now I have changed my mind. Epic 1.0 wasn't advertized to sell an expansion. Beastlord epic 1.0 spanned accross original EQ, Luclin (duh, you needed luclin to be beastlord), and Kunark. No surprises there. They PURPOSEFULLY left out Velious so you weren't required any other expansions but the basic ones (Kunark was basic for an epic). That is a fact. Epics were considered Kunark weapons. It was common sense to expect Kunark would be involved. All other classes need Kunark so why shouldn't we? No biggie there.
I don't know a thing about Berserkers' epic. So I won't include that one here.
There has not been a single expansion where one of the selling points was unattainable unless you had any previous expansion. That was the deal with expansions. None of them required another. An expansion on an existing game is just that. An expansion of an existing game. GoD is not an existing game. It is an expansion to original EQ. You don't need Kunark to access it do you? You may need other expansions for some quests, but those quests weren't advertized. Quests are meant to be discovered and they have always spanned many expansions. But no quest has EVER been advertized. That's the problem.
Oh, and to whomever said "it's just 50 bucks" I respond with this. Ok, then you buy me the expansion and nobody will complain. Many people were upset with GoD and won't buy it. So now they can't be uber in OoW? What about up and coming guilds that are just starting to beat PoTime? Maybe they skipped GoD flagging because of how time-consuming it was/is. No reason to lock them out of Epics because of it.
PoP advertized "battle the gods of norrath". They delivered that. They didn't specify being in an uber guild, but again, that was always the case with previous gods. And nobody says you are REQUIRED to join an uber guild. Maybe your server has pick-up raids, maybe it doesn't. But either way, anyone playing EverQuest already knows that you need an uber guild to see uber content.
QuoteYou don't need Kunark to access it do you? You may need other expansions for some quests, but those quests weren't advertized. Quests are meant to be discovered and they have always spanned many expansions. But no quest has EVER been advertized. That's the problem.
That's not entirely correct. Every expansion has advertised "all new quests" and some of those have components from earlier expansions. If we follow this reasoning, then it's reasonable for people to expect that every one of those advertised "all new quests" would only involve the expansion and original EQ. And those are just normal quests. An epic quest by its definition implies an even larger scope.
Or, to put it another way, if the "epic" quest only involved the expansion and original EQ, then you'd have consumers who said that they bought the expansion expecting a quest of grand world-spanning scale and scope, and all they got was something involving the new expansion and some old world zones. They'd say, "how is this *epic*? It's just a regular old quest."
QuoteOh, and to whomever said "it's just 50 bucks" I respond with this. Ok, then you buy me the expansion and nobody will complain. Many people were upset with GoD and won't buy it. So now they can't be uber in OoW? What about up and coming guilds that are just starting to beat PoTime? Maybe they skipped GoD flagging because of how time-consuming it was/is. No reason to lock them out of Epics because of it.
No one is locked out of epics because they didn't do backflagging, since none of the "non-uber" epic parts so far have been in any locked zones. Everyone can get to Riwwi or Vxed or Natimbi or Ferubi. Also, no one is locked out of "being uber" since you don't need an epic 1.5 to be uber. Although one counterpoint is that the Epic 1.5 is one of the best items that a player can get without having access to Qvic+.
A lot of people may be boycotting GoD, and that's all well and good, but SOE isn't under any obligation to keep from adding things to it just so those people can continue their crusade. You've essentially got people complaining that they didn't buy GoD because there was nothing in it that interested them or that the content was unbalanced (much of that has changed, btw), and now they are upset because now there is something in it that interests them and they still don't want to get it because they are holding a grudge.
You guys aren't getting it at all are you?
Hi epic 1.0 was a part of kunark, you couldn't get it without kunark. Obviously no conflicts with needing the original game too since kunark was just an expansion.
Then, when luclin came around there was an exception, the Beastlord. Obviously still no conflicts with needing past expansions to get your epic, since the beastlord quest did not involve Velious, and you needed Luclin just to be able to play the class anyway.
Next comes the Berserker epic, which you need GoD to be able to get since you can only play the class if you have it. This quest also required no other expansions other than Kunark and its own to be able to complete.
Now we've got epic 1.5/2.0's for all classes. Given the way epic quests have worked in the past, it would be safe to assume that any expansion that involved a new class would more than likely be required to venture to. You'd think that this would exclude LoY, and Velious, but unfortunately it doesn't. The new epics are required level 65 which was implemented in PoP so obviously you need that one (not sure if the requirement was advertised or not). The only expansion you don't need is LDoN...
So no, its not common sense to assume you would need all expansions. Just that you would need most of them.
Actually a rogue friend had me join her for the three minimum person requirements to make an LDoN mission.
She had to go in and keep trying different chests for parts of her epic.
Kat
Oh yeah, you're right. I completely forgot about that part of the rogue epic lol.
And one of the paladin epic 2.0 (not 1.5) parts is in a LDoN raid:
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Paladin&message.id=3237
Game on,