Quick question on a duo.

[Dakat]

Let me fix this for you.

Mage heal: 1200 for 261 mana, SCM3 + Spec. other than Alteration
Soo...the mage can cast 8.14 heals for 2125 mana.

1200 x 8.14 = 9770

Now, lets not forget that Rathe's Son takes only 60% of the damage that Sorsha does, so it needs 60% of the heals. So, if a beastlord needed to heal 10500, the mage would only have to heal 6300.

6300/1200=5.25 heals from the mage, for his pet to tank for the same amount of time as the beastlord.

Zams shows 300 mana. I guess with focus they cost less. Well, so do beast, get focus that reduces mana costs.

Mage heals are conjuration based.

Ok if you compared.  

A beast casts Sorsha 8.14 times at 2100 per cast, before healing adept would heal 17094 hp. With max aa, 20341 hp. With max aa and Improve Healing 4 its 23760 hp. Now, with Healing Gift you could get 1 or perhaps 2 crits during the 8 casts. If you got 2 crits in the 8 casts which is possible depending on luck thats getting 2 extra full heals making the total hp healed at 29598 hp healed.

Beast:

No aa/item = 2100 hp healed x 8.14 = 17094
Max aa = 2100 x 19% (HA 3 [10%] and AHA 3 [9%]) = 2499 hp x 8.14 = 20341
Max aa and IH 4 = 2100 x 39 % [19% (AA) + 20% (IH4)] = 2919 hp x 8.14 = 23760
Critical Heal = if 2919 was your high heal 2919 x 2 (if your crit 2 times, you double your total 2 times, subtracting your original amount of the 2 crits) = 5838 hp + 23760 = 29598

To cast heal cost 382.5 per cast times 8.14 casts used 3113.55 mana.

Mage:

No aa/item = 1200 hp healed x 8.14 = 9768
Max aa = 1200 x 8.14 = 9768 (dont get healing aa)
Max aa/item = (1200 + 20% ID4) 1440 x 8.14 = 11721

To heal the same amount as a beastlord:
1440 hp per cast / 29520 hp total to heal = 20.5 casts x 261 = 5350.5 mana used. Pet takes 40% less damage of 29520 or 11808 less for 17712. You would have to cast 14.75 times to cover using 3849.75 mana


A beast can heal 1.75 times more then what the mage can heal casting the same amount of times. If maxed aa thats 2.08 times. If max aa and IH 4 its 2.46 times. In the same amount of casts.

That would cost the mage 3719.25 mana with mana pres items/aa.  Would cost the beast 3459.5 mana w/o any mana pres items or aa. Or 3113.55 mana if using mana pres 4 only.  The Beast did it in 8 casts while made took 14. Did it with less mana and at the max healed 2.46 times more.

And one last thing.  For example if we were in BoT. You had a level 65 mage solo a Giant. Then you had a Beastlord soloing a giant. Wait, I've never seen a mage solo BoT using their summoned pet. I solo BoT all the time.  So if a mage's best pet gets delt 40% less then a Beast's pet and a Beast casts 65% slow, then the beast pet takes 25% less damage then the mage pet. Unless I have forgetten mages can slow now?

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Edited couple times lol. Can't figure out what I want to say. Ok, im beginning to confuse myself.

[Dakat]

Ok, ive totaly confused myself.

If you can make since of what I have written you are doing good.

[Tastian]

lol I just want to chime in mention that somethings stay constant for both classes.  Both mages and bst can get spell haste IV.  Both mages and bst can get IH IV.  Beastlords however, don't come standard with spec and they can't train SCM3.  Also you can't just look at the numbers.  Imagine if sorsha was 4200 for 800mana on a 15 second casting time.  That's double the healing, for less than double the mana on less than double the casting time.  Clearly this is a better heal!!  Now take it another step further to an 8400hp heal for 1500mana on a 20 second casting time, WOAH beastlords are broken @$$ healers now aren't they?  This is what happens when you look at things on paper.  The bottom line is in practice things don't play out like you'd originally think looking at the numbers.

-  It's more efficent for many beastlords to tank and DB themselves than to ever cast a healing of sorsha.

-  Factoring in healing AA on sorsha causes problems because you simply don't always get the boost.  I've crit healed my pet for 5k and of that he got ~3k of the healing.  

-  Even on the same ratio a larger/slower/more expensive heal is less useful than a decent size heal with ok casting time and mana cost.  There are just too many times when you'll use sorsha and either not get the full amount or have a spike in mob damage and pet gets wrecked.  

-  *shrugs*  lol I can't believe we got this far off track.

[Dakat]

I didnt mean too, I just hate people who come here and try to put down beasts.  If ya want to put em down, go to the mages forums.

Beast Bashers not welcome!

[Zashir Swiftpaw]

I'm still trying to figure out how 65 earth mitigates 40% more damage than Sorsha.  Mitigation did get increased awhile back, but Rathe's Son is still a dirt clod, and really takes a lot of damage.  Maybe this is at some level 3 or 4 pet focus?

[Kitvear]

I'm curious too,

Maybe it's including Elemental Durability & Agility

It would be nice to have some controlled parsing and get some viable data interjected into this mess.

Maybe the beastlords can put it on thier 10 list that SOE gives mages a better heal, that would make things a lot easier on beastlords.  Nothing too extravgent though. 4 or 5k heal that casts in 2.5 secs, instant recast and costs about 300 mana.

I do see Dakat's point though about mages soloing in bot with a summoned pet, I've not seen any doing that either,  every mage I've seen soloing in bot has always charmed a elemental

[Xarilok]

So if a mage's best pet gets delt 40% less then a Beast's pet and a Beast casts 65% slow, then the beast pet takes 25% less damage then the mage pet. Unless I have forgetten mages can slow now?

No, but....shaman can, and the original question was about ditching the shaman for a beast.

The original poster was under the impression that beastlord pet heals are vastly superior to mage ones (which is opposite the truth) and that a mage+beastlord is better than mage+shaman, which is again, not the case.

Again, I will do the math for you, Dakat:

Mage heals are 1200HP for 300 mana.

Mages get BOTH specialization and spell casting mastery, beastlords do NOT.

NOT going to factor ANY item focuses, since those are shared by both.

Mage heal: 1200 for 240 mana (300 x90% x89%) in other words (300 xSCM xSpec).

Beastlord heal: 2100 for 425.

2100 x119% for max healing adept = 2499
2499 x116% for max healing gift = 2898

So, beastlords can heal 2898 for 425 mana.

So....after a beastlord gets 60AA purely for healing (which ISNT what a beastlord does) they can heal their pet slightly better than a mage that gets 12AA, in SCM which is the single best Archtype AA for casters anyway?  Wow, yea, beasts need nerfed.

And, back to the original poster's question:

PoV golem does ~150DPS to mage pets, unslowed, and just over 200DPS to Sorsha.  Its actually under 150 and over 200, but I will use 150 and 200 for easy math, favoring mages no less.

Rathe's son takes 1200 damage on a 75% slowed mob...

Sorsha would take ~2250 on a 65% slowed mob...

So, if the mage/shaman duo is killing a mob, right next to the mage/beastlord combo, the mage/shaman combo will cast a pet heal at the exact same time as the mage/beast combo will, the ONLY difference is that the mage will use 240-267 mana depending on whether the mage has SCM3 or not, speci will ALWAYS take effect.

If the mage casts 2 heals per mob, so will the beast.

If the mage uses 500 mana, the beast will use 796 mana.

Yes, Sorsha+BL pet heals+65% slow > mage pet+mage heals+ NO slow, but thats NOT the case here.  In this case, the mage pet tanks a mob that is shaman slowed, compared to the beastlord pet tanking a mob beastlord slowed.

ONLY when slow is factored in are BL pets and pet heals better than mages.  On equally slowed mobs, mages blow us out of the water.

Not to mention thier heal is FAR FAR more useful than ours.

[Golry]

One big topic over at Mage's tower is that mages feel the need for better pet heals.

I am in that crowd.  I tried to solo a mob in Droga.  I had to spam two different heals and summon my necro friend down because my pet wasn't staying alive long enough for me to nuke more than once.

If mages had heals that didn't take another like 10 seconds to recast I could have soloed the goblin, and had Navii in place for a CH chain down to the king.

Should note I don't have my stupid 65 earth pet Rathe's Son because I'm a group mage and root usually gets me tells from the tanks to change pets.

Also should note some of us want some form of slow.  Maybe not the 65% BSTs get but 50 (maybe as a pet weapon proc) would be enough for us to be able to solo something outside of CB.

Sorry for this being so long.

[Araden]

Just a question here.  But isn't mage heals under alteration?  How many mages speciialize in alteration?

I thought evocation / conjuration was the two most common mage spec's.  If so that would change the mana savings on the mage heals to be not quite so great... spec 50 skill instead of spec 200.  You get about a 10% mana savings from spec 200 according to extensive tests on graffes a while back.  so lose about 7-8% of that mana efficiency on the mage for a more true reading of the mana cost for a heal.... for a non alteration spec mage.

[Tastian]

The higher level mage pet heals are conjuration.  The first one now at level 8 is alteration, but the 50s and 60s heal are conjuration.

All pet classes could use changes to healing spells.  The issue with mages is that they are asking for way too much and are misrepresenting too many facts to try to get what they want.  Mages can solo a lot of things outside of CB, but most keep acting like they can't.  

If you actually look at the spell dat on lucy atm for OoW spells mages have a better pet heal than beastlords do in almost everyones' opinion.  This was gone over a ton in a couple other threads, but many beastlords don't even keep their heal spell mem'd.  Even in spots they'd want it.  Some I've spoken with don't even own this uber etheral turn in spell hehe.

[Araden]

thanks for the reply tastian.   heals not being under alteration is wierd too me (having played both a druid and a cleric lol).   Which was why i asked =)

[Hereki]

Most mages will specialise in evocation, not conjuration - these days, since SOE nerfed pet canni.

There are a few reasons that a 65 mage might respec to conjuration, however - a couple of the top nukes are conj, as well as the heal.  I have no idea what current mage thinking is on this.