Completing my group with a Tank: Shadowknight or Paladin?

[Bulge]

I currently 5-box a Beastlord (66, Main, tank and by far best the best equipped), Druid 63, Cleric 63, Mage 63, Necro 64.  Since I LOVE rolling alts, twinking, powerleveling and fine-tuning/adding to this fine boxing team, I decided to add a true tank to the mix. :D

I know this is just slacking since it will take me ages to get the Tank to anywhere near the Beastlords level of power/efficiency anyway, but I am in this for the long run anyway and I love fiddling with my group.

The basic idea behind adding the Tank is off course to be able to do hard mobs more comfortably and make a chance in OoW and the GoD Trials and such. In a year or so from now. :D Anyway, a Warrior is not an option, since I simply can not play a toon that has no magic. I must have spells and utility!

Since my Beast will be slowing, I need a Tank that can grab aggro. I am also a sucker for extra DPS (I hear the highest SK pets actually does some damage) and I am definately a sucker for something like Zefveers bite which would be a nice addition to my Mindwracking Necro. I never take outside buffs, I simply cant be bothered with that so I rely entirely on what my group brings. The extra mana the Necro and possibly SK would bring makes my casters so much more usefull, I have learned.
Also, I think it would be ncie if I have an extra way of splitting mobs through the SK's Feign Death spell, if I for instance would want to peel off a Named or split a really hard camp.  I have my Cleric's Paci but I hear PLacate sucks so anything above level 65 will give trouble (OoW and such).
I also hear that SK's are really good at grabbing aggro which is very important for me.

Now I am a newbie when it comes to Paladins and SK's, though I have read up a lot on them. So my question is: am I overlooking important matters when choosing between these two? Would you choose otherwise? Can an SK actually tank stuff or do I have to get him to Raid-level equipment  first before he would outtank my Beast? (see gimpy magelo of my beast).
My Troll Beast has 6200 HP buffed and about 1240 AC and only 11 AA (CA 1, CS 1 ND1), would an SK of say level 63 with bazaar/DoN gear be substantially better at tanking then my beast? Make the stuns a MUCH better tank of a pally?  How are pallies at grabbing aggro if my Beast takes it with its slow? Can SK's and Pallies actually stand up against two hardhitting mobs or do you *always* need a chanter to handle adds in areas like WoS, MPG, RCoD and such? I think one of my biggest questions is if Plate tanks are truly that much better in tanking. Would I benefit more from my two healers with a Tank that mitigates rather then avoids damage?(My Beast gets beaten HARD sometimes, hard to keep up with all the healing).

I would love to hear some insights about these two tanking classes, seen from a Beastlords perspective, especially from those that box themselves and know the ins and outs of handling more then 1 toon.

Thanks!

[Lizsolo]

My Troll Beast has 6200 HP buffed and about 1240 AC and only 11 AA (CA 1, CS 1 ND1), would an SK of say level 63 with bazaar/DoN gear be substantially better at tanking then my beast?

I'm no expert with the Pal/SK thing either.  However, I do have a 52 SK twink.  At 52 he already buffs up to over 1300 AC and 5.5k hp.  So, based on that.. .I figure in 10 levels he'll thoroughly kick my beasts's butt as a tank.   :roll:

As far as "snap" aggro: I group a lot with a 62 SK and a 62 Paladin.  Either one of them can, if desired, yank aggro off my beastlord (although we usually just let my beast tank - higher level and more AAs).  I don't know that you could say one is better than the other in getting and holding aggro.  Both have nice little low-mana options to get and hold aggro.  (assuming they're well-played, of course).

But yeah, if it were me in your shoes, I'd probably look at the SK.  A tank that can also pull, snare and or FD in a multi-box scenario would be a blessing imho.  I dig my little SK - he's a lot of fun to play.  The self mana-proc at 52 is just nuts too.   :-D

[Bulge]

Thanks for answering, Liszolo. :)  The thing that worries me a little bit is the fact that your level 67 Beastlord tanks better then the level 62 SK or Pally. :) I guess levels are still the most important factor here. I am curious as to what the AC and HP of that SK and Pally is. :)  But it's good to hear that a level 52 SK twink already can  have more AC then what my Beastlord has. Still, our Block-skill seems to make up for a LOT of AC, if I am figuring this right.

[Lraria]

Tough call....

With bst/dru/nec/mag I keep looking at what I'd add for a 5th box.  Looking at your group Bulge I always figured you would jump to 6 box someday.... LOL  What to add for a 6th?

I have always thought a group without a bard is not a maxxed group, but that is my bias from playing a bard as my main when not boxing.  Plus the fact that bards are very difficult to play well when boxing.  Possibly, with some gamepad / macro's the twisting problem would be minimized and the bard utility optimized, but even I have not gone much beyond a simple repeating twist on my gamepad for 2-3 boxing with my bard.

Pally or SK?  I've played both to midlevels, SK a touch higher (49) and I think that it will come down to a matter of taste.  They both are very similar in gear/options with only a couple major differences that don't mean much when compared to the rest of your box team.  I have good friends who play both as mains.  Certain mobs, certain camps one edges out the other as far as dps / utility.  But they are very close together overall.

Unless I'm totally missing something, assuming boxing with your 5 box team, my suggestion is just pick one and level up.  Worst case you do it again and swap some gear around.  I don't think either would be a bad choice at all.

I'm still bard centric and will probably look at somehow adding a bard to my team in the near future, assuming I can make it work reasonably effectively.

Good Luck!!

[Bulge]

Ha, Lraria, I also have the feeling that my group will never be complete, missing an Enchancter for instance, but I just know that I would not be able to get the best out of either an Enchanter or a Bard, when I would box them. I would always want to play a tanking main, since I enjoy getting up close and personaly with the mobs so much.  I have to say that *the* big difference between  my boxed group and any other "normal" group that has an enchanter, is the superb in-camp crowd control that they would have and I would lack.  This means that my gameplay is always somewhat restricted by what sort of adds I can expect. This is why I admire those boxers that manage to actually put a Chanter-box to good use in their hydra. But I am both too lazy (see my Commander setups) and probably not apt enough to pull that off. Also because I have never played a Chanter before.

It's good to hear that there are no huge differences in tankability between Pallies and SK's. This means I can choose the one that I like best which would be the SK. I am already PL-ing one, currently level 25. Still, I keep wondering when she will be able to take over command of the group of my Beastlord and start tanking, rather then being a very useless "appendix" to my group for many, many levels to come. At least the 6th member of a group does not take any xp. :) But her gimpy low level pets will not bring any true DPS either or her low level spells.

Stop reading here if you are not into RP stuff. ;)

Even then, it is fun to complete my group with a 3rd female toon. 3 Males, 3 females, all paired up. Regalo, the Woodelf Druid has chosen Franny, the young Shadowknight as his bride. They met in the Qeynos Sewers, where he was snooping around for some quest and she was doing chores for the Bloodsabers. She though him very yummy and the choice between staying with the Bloodsabers or teaming up with Regalo was an easy one. Regalo never really understood what she saw in him but for him, she is like a goddess: tall, blond and a touch of evil. Bulge, the Troll Beastlord and Regalo are friends: it's a bit complicated, but let us say that if Regalo would not have been snooping around Innothule Forest at just the right time(he obvisouly is a well-traveled druid!), young Bulge would have been a tadpole dinner! His friendship for the Woodelf goes deep and they have teamed up ever since in their adventuring. It is through Regalo that Bulge met his companion, Bulgette. Off course that is not her real name, just something that Bulge calls here lovingly. She is a somewhat twisted, but beautifull Dark Elf with a love for anything green. And warted. A little bit twisted indeed. But Bulge sure does not mind! Regalo saved her from a band of Halflings(he does that a lot, saving people) that were about to haul her off to Rivervale to put her to trial, where she most probably would have been convicted to a "Death through constant exposure to the Rivervale Theme Music".  I am guessing the fact that she knew this was coming, is where she got twisted from. Anyway, saved by Regalo, let her eyes fall on Bulge and sold she was. Muscled, green and above all, TALL as in not SHORT(like Halflings), she was smitten. How Fransien, a female High Elf and Wouter, A Male High Elf joined the troupe, is just too crazy too believe. Let me just say, Elven Wine and lots of it, a liason with the Nybright sisters and a *very* disgruntled father who is also Commander of the Felwithe Guards, and you may get an idea.

[bham]

If you really want a plate tank I think either will be a good choice.

I must say tho, that trying to box 2 melee toon really sucks. Especially if you have pets involved. With a warder, elemental and spectre pushing the mob around it will be almost impossible to keep both you tank and beastlord in melee range and swinging. For a while I 3-boxed SH, beast and cleric. I quit because the 2 melees at once was a pain with just 1 pet pushing.

If I were you I would concentrate on leveling / AAing / equipping your beastlord. With zero raid gear I currently tank RSS at level 70, and thats with 1 healer. If the time you spend on leveling up a new toon was spent on improving on your beastlord, you will soon be able to do RcoD, then MPG, and then RSS. As it stands you should be able to get mucho exp and crystals in DoN.

I think the bard or enchanter would be a better choice as a 6th box, but if you really want a tank I think a pally or SK would do equally well overall.

[Bulge]

Thanks, Bham. I have been reading your RSS post thoroughly and your 4-some is definately *the* reference where I measure my boxed team against. When I read your post I figured, "who needs a tank" but there is one thing that will always be slacking with me and that's AA"s. It will literally take me *years* to get each of my toons hundreds of AA's.

So I was figuring, maybe a Plate Tank can substitute for all those missing AA"s with my Beastlord? I think I can get an SK to level 65 in about 2-3 months, however it would take me a year before my beast would have 150 AA. This has mostly to do with the fact that I have zero endurance when it comes to grinding xp.  Then again, I am pretty sure that your 700 AA Beast will outtank any level 70 Plate Tank with zero AA's, am I right? Considering they are both in top DoN-mission gear?

About the two melees: it was never my intention to have the BL melee too, he would just sit with the rest of the group, sending pet, slowing, Incapacitate,  buffing and maybe a nuke  here and there. I realize I am gimping his potential, but I dont want to bother with positioning a second melee, ever(if SOE would ever implement the /stick command that they have in DAoC, where your toon glues and autofaces itself to the mob, then all boxers would rejoice!).  I also do not want to replace him with a Shaman, because that would be silly: I am having trouble enough leveling up all my alts as it is.

I guess I am being stupid for trying to level up a Tank just to substitue for a low-AA beastlord, but in the end, the very end, like 2013 or some, I would have a better tank in the SK then I would in the Beastlord.

[bham]

It was my experience that a 65 beastlord with full defensvie AAs out-tanked a 65 warrior with no AAs, assuming equivalent gear, othgers may disagree. I dont think Ive played with a level 70 warrior with no defensive AAs, so I cant comment on that.

You are obviously a much better powerleveler than me. I could make 50-100AA in the time I could PL a toon to 65. 1-40 is easy, but it slows down after that, I must be missing something.  :?

If you play a tank and use your beastlord as a gimp shaman I will cry, but its your call.  :cry:

Your comment about a plate tank being a better choice in the long long term is true, but as far as I am concerned, the tank must be considered the "main" of box-combo. The ability of the tank determines what you can and cant kill. By "main" I mean the tank must get first preference in all loot, and your hunting strategies must concentrate on upgrading your tank above all others. If you are willing to push the beastlord into the background and make the tank, your "main", then he will eventually allow you to take tougher mobs, but if you intend to keep the beastlord as your "main", then the plate tank may never be much of an improvement.

[Bulge]

Yes, it would indeed be my intent to let the Beastlord play second fiddle from then on and concentrate on the Shadowknight when it comes to upgrading.  About the PL-ing: I am just pulling some figures out of my hat there, but as soon as I can add the SK to my group and start doing DoN missions again, I expect the levels from 45+ to go pretty fast. I noticed that my level 63 Alts earn more then 10% regular XP per DoN mission that takes me about 90 minutes to finish: these are the level 65 Grind Drakes missions where I usually end up killing around 25 drakes. The AA experience is around 70-80% of an AA for the same mission.

Now my 66 Beastlord only earns around 3-4%, making the steep rise in xp needed after 65 painfully clear.  The thing is, as soon as the SK can tag on to my group joining DoN missions (and I think this will be when she gets to 45-50), I think I can get her to 65 in around 50-70 missions. In 50 to 70 missions I would be earning around 40-50 AA if I went for full AA.  Which is pretty much what you said too. :)

I guess the most important thing is that I find it more fun to get a new toon to level 65 then to grind away 50 AA's. :D

ABout my BL playing second fiddle: this is a tough call. Once again, I realized how much I love my Beastlord, after my 63 Druid got owned by a green-conning Fabled mob in unrest that was immune to run-speed changes. Now I must say I started fighting him unprepared,  and had my powerleveling spellset memmed, even then it sucked hard to realize how little a Druid can take when he can not rely on some of his spells. :) I went back with my Beast and for the hell of it, smacked the mob around with my bare hands and no pet.

[bham]

We were promised a 10-level spread for DoN, but it got messed up or nerfed. The max spread is some weird formula I cant work out, but you cant have a 63 with a group of 70s like you can in LdoN, so the max spread must be lower than LdoN.  :oops:

DoN gear and augs are nice, but the lack of effects on the gear and only 1 aug slot each is a pain. You can generally find better gear in Omens, then add a few DoN focus effect augs to them.

[Bulge]

Ack, you're right, I can't take the SK into DoN before she is level 59 then.  I did not realize that. I guess I will have to level her  up in Griegs, once she is high enough to share in the xp or some. I still like Griegs and my other toons still get ok xp there.  So far I am just having fun leveling up a new alt, taking her to the ZOnes where I can get her some fabled armour. She is wearing the Fabled Vambraces, Fabled Bloodstained mantle, Fabled Dwarven Work Boots, Fabled Hooded Black Cloak, Fabled Batskull Earring and the Fabled Thick Leather Apron, and in her bags are waiting the Fabled RIng of Eldak x 2, Fabled Tattered Mantle, Fabled Earring of Essence, Fabled Idol of the Thorned and the Fabled Journeyman Boots.

Decking her out in Fabled alone gave me a fun week, even though I could have probably earned 7x120 Radiant cyrstals in the same time. But visiting all those old zones and seeing these fabled mobs (some for the first time, I never explored Kunark much) was so much fun.

About the DoN gear: I agree the lack of effects and the single AUgment slot are a pity, but for me this is the best I can get now. I think my Beastlord would get eaten in OoW, with his 11 AA.  I guess I could be picking out certain nameds in WoS for gear upgrades and such but right now I feel  that I am doing better in DON, also because of the great xp the missions give me. I doubt wether I could viably grind xp in OoW with my gimpy Beastlord at this point.  Also the great advantage of doing a mission for me, is the fact that once I start it, I have to finish it. I suck at grinding and doing the same thing for more then an hour, so the missions are pretty good for me. Even though I do the same mission a lot(no more then one per evening though, I have limited play-time), at least it has a start and a finish, and working towards that goal feels good. If I would do a "camp" in WoS there is a good chance that I would Port back to PoK after 45 minutes out of sheer boredom. I even suck more at camping Named with PH's. If I kill a PH and get another PH, this is usually the point  where I load up some port with my druid to go out check another zone for some fun. :)

Slacking is my middle name. I agree with everything you said though, Bham, it's obvious you have a solid view on the matter. And the things you accomplish with your 4-box is still what I ever hope to accomplish, in some far future, in my own way. I like reading your posts a lot.

[bham]

If you dont like grinding in one place I recommend Sniping. Pick a zone you can do fairly easily. Off the top of my head, I think you could do Harbingers Spire or Nobles Causeway no problem. Harbingers is often empty, and Nobles Causeway is dying down too now that DoN is out. Look up on Allakhazams which names drop useful gear or quest items for you. Work out where they are on the map, and then try to find a way to get to and kill the PH in the least time and trouble. Find say 3 or 4 names like this and run around, using invis, to knock off the PHs, then pick up and move to the next. This will stop you getting bored, provide an interesting challenge, and give you a chance to get some upgrades.

The tier 1 quest armours in Omens are fantastic. If you look at Bham's magelo, you will see the arms, hands, wrists and feet. He also has the head but I dont use it. His belt, neck ,back and 1 ring are also quested (he also has a quested earring he doesnt use). Apart from the neck, earring and ring you can get the items you need for all these quests from Harbingers and Nobles Causeway.

In Nobles causeway for example, you can kill poisonous murkglider and dragorn battleleader, which both drop tier 1 quest pieces, while also killing trash murks, to work on your quested back piece.

In the first part of Harbingers Spire, you can keep 4 or 5 place holders down at once, as they are all close together, with only 3 or 4 mobs per room. Each named drops items in the 45 to 50 hp/mana range, as well as some useful augs (ft 1 or regen 2 for example). And at the same time, 2 or 3 of the 4 pieces for the quested belt drop downstairs.

The biggest mistake people make is looking at how fast their exp bar is moving. I never do, I go where the best gear is that I can survive. At the end of the session if I have some AA, I spend it.

I do know what you mean about the DoN missions, I was really into LdoN missions for a while for the same reason. I knew how long the mission would last and I knew how long till my next upgrade. When I have everything I need from RSS for Bham, if my friends and I arent doing MPG trials reliably by then, Ill probably grind out a few thousand crystals to fit out my casters better, but its not a priority at the monent.

It all comes down to personal taste, I just dont think you should write off the idea of your beast tanking Omens content just yet.

[jabby]

I dont have a problem with just using the beastie as a gimp shammy, but i do agree with bham in that it seems like starting over with an SK may be more trouble than concentrating on the beastie as tank.

Although i do alot of starting over myself, so i am not one to pass judgement.

With equivalent gear and aa's, any of the three plate tanks will do a better job tanking than a beastlord, but with the exception of warriors with defensive, im not really sure that having a plate tank vs a beastie will let you kill any tougher mobs, or even let you gain exp at a faster rate.

the thing about the beastlord, is although he may take more damage and therefore be harder on cleric manna, he incorporates slows + single pulls + tanking in one toon. No other character can do this. By having all three of these in one toon, this lets you stack up DPS in other characters and kill mobs faster, which saves cleric manna.

So what is the real advantage of having a true plate tank?

In order to get single pulls + slows+ tanking, here are some options:

1) beastlord
2) shammy + shadowknight
3) monk+shammy+warrior
4) chanter+pally (mez instead of single pulls)


After much deliberation, (and consternation, i dont *want* to be a yet another kitty beastlord) i am slowly coming to the conclusion that  the best 4 box team may indeed be mage, beast, cleric, wizard.

Im still thinking about Warrior, Cleric, Shammy, Monk though.

No pet push to worry about with 2 melees, monk can single pull to warrior, great tank, great buffs and heals, but no snare other than cleric, no ports, and lowish dps though. But i bet that 4 box could prolly do tougher mobs than mage wizzie beast cleric, but with all the nuking power who knows. If you burn it down fast enough who needs a warrior tank?

[Bulge]

Thanks for all the usefull replies, guys. That Tier 1 OoW armor sure sounds good, I figured I may not be ready yet tanking in these OoW zones but if it is anywhere near viable then it sounds like a great option next to DoN missions. 
About the Beastlord combining SLow and Tanking: I have been thinking about this too and I am not really looking forward to pulling with one, then having to slow with another. 

I try to keep the number of button pushes I have to do per Mob as low as possible, and having my Cleric HoT, my Druid Snare and Hand of Ro, my Necro throw on a Pyre and a little later a Mindwrack and my Mage a nuke or two and maybe a Malo, already feels as if I am playing an Etude from Chopin. Especially since my Druid and NEcro also nuke very often. :D But since the SK can take over Snaring (also good for aggro, I hear), I can at least free up one button-push on the Druid. Though most mobs don't move very far with three pets beating on them anyway. I always use the Necro Warrior pet and the Mage Air pet, for the great stuns and bashes.

I must say that these stuns seem to keep damage on my Beastlord also low oftentimes: my biggest problem is the damagespikes if he has a bad run and the pets are not stunning. I guess I am looking for a more stable decline in HP's for my Tank, and possibly a Tank that can at least hold his ground when two mobs beat on him for a while. Then, again, having to slow them with another toon may well cause such a delay(as opposed to slowing themselves with my Beast) that all advantage of the Plate Tank might be lost, simply because it takes me a little more time to get them both slowed. Right now the mobs arrive on the fight spot slowed and well: with the SK, I will first take a few unslowed hits probably, before my Beast lands his slow, which may negate the advantage.

Tough call. I guess I would be better off with a Chanter as 6th box or some, who could save the day with these pesky adds. The problem is, I am not apt at playing a Chanter and I hate it when I have to Rez one of my groupmembers because of aggro gone wrong.  Mmmm. And it's such fun to play an SK, it;s one of the toons I always wanted to play still.

The thing I am expecting from a Plate Tank, is that he *really* tanks a LOT better then a Beastlord, given the same level of gear and AA's: and this seems besides the truth, if I am reading it right.

So, how are Bards for CC? I don't think I could play a Bard to even 30% of it's potential though. :(
Still, so fun to think about all the possibilities!

EDIT: Jabby, there was one thing that I did not understand: you implied the Beastlord can pull singles. But how? Do you mean through pet pulling?

[jabby]

yeah pet pulling, esp with suspend pet and ward of calliav

but that may well get nerfed someday, but who knows. Anyway, SK will be mostly pet  pulling also in tough areas, of course i suspect the beastie is actually a better pet puller than the SK in high end zones simply due to ward (but i dont know for sure)

Anyway, thinking about everything a beastie brings, there is only one other class that can do what a beastie can to some extent - the bard.

beastlord - slow, sow, tank, single pull, share manna, buffs
bard - slow, selos, tank (not as well as beastie), single pull, share manna, buffs, etc.

only thing is, bards are waaay harder than beasties to play in a boxed situation. This is why we are having this conversation on the only multiboxing forum on the net for eq, which is on the beastlord boards.

As far as chanters go, i have played one to 65, and have boxed one to 55 as well, and I like em in a box for the buffs and cc. Esp if you have like a warrior MT, instead of pulling with a diff toon then tagging, you can just pull with warrior, get all that sweet extra pull aggro, and mezz adds. I find it to be pretty easy.

Also, with war/chanter in a boxed setting you can make good use of /shield, which works as a hotkey /shield jabby -  jabby being the chanter, in case of a mezz resist its faster than trying to heal chanter.

of course, they do very very little dps. and warriors are not dps machines either, nor will be the cleric healing, so you are left with 1 dps slot in that box, which sucks, and which brings me back to...

Bst, cleric, mage wizzie.

but yeah, SK's are pretty cool with the LT's and all - and they are by far the best pullers out of the plate tanks. I think you could do pretty well with SK (main), Beastie (slow+pet only) and the rest of your crew. remember, the mob will be incoming single, snared and hating on the sk pretty good - you could prolly slow before the sk ever gets touched.