4-box advice.

[Goran]

Greetings,

I'm in the process of starting up a 4-box team.  I've read basically every relevant thread in this forum, but I still need a bit of help with group composition.  I'd like to make my team totally self-sufficient.  I like the freedom of boxing and I've never really enjoyed grouping much (even with the friends I've made in the game).

I've tried to follow Bham's rules when selecting classes for my team.  I've covered all the "must have's", but I'm having trouble actually deciding among the various classes.

A bit of background.  I've been playing EQ since '99 and 2-boxing since '01.  My highest level character is a 61 ranger.  I enjoy playing the ranger, but he will not ever be a member of the 4-box team.  I plan on doing LDoNs and then DoNs until I'm suitably equipped to try more challenging content.

1)  Tank - Warrior vs. Shadowknight.

I'm about 90 percent sure I'll go with the SK.  The SK pro's include; feign death (in an "oh-no!" situation and in pulling), pet pulling, snares, and solid aggro generation.  The warrior offers better tanking abilities against tougher mobs and solid aggro generation with the correct weapon/augmentation setup and the incite line of combat skills.  The only thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger on the SK is that I'm unsure as to how great the difference in tanking ability is between warriors and SKs against tough opponents, assuming identical AAs. 

2) Healer - Cleric.  The easy category.

3) Slower - Bard vs. Enchanter vs. Shaman.

I'm strongly leaning towards the shaman.  All three classes offer slowing and hasting.  The shaman adds weak pet dps, movement speed increasing spells, excellent buffs,  nice DoT dps, and backup healing.  Enchanter offers crowd control, nukes, and pet though until Dire Charm the pet will only serve as a personal protector to the Enchanter.  I'll have enough on my hands with the melee w/o having to worry about moving enchanter in for a hit to engage the pet.  And I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to fully utilize the crowd control capabilities of the enchanter.

The Bard is sort of intriguing.  In addition to slow/haste, he could backup snare, mana regen, health regen, buff resists, offers a perma mez/charm that I  could actually use to control a 2 or 3 pull, and I'm sure other benefits that I'd discover as I go along.  I just don't know if the lower haste/slow percentages (granted not a huge difference) would be a limiting factor at higher levels.  I'd also prefer having an actual movement enhancing spell such as spirit of wolf rather than bard songs.

4) DPS/Utility - Mage vs. Necro.

I've played a Mage to the mid-50s.  It was kind of boring, but I think the mage makes a lot of sense in the 4-box team.  He brings the strongest pet in the game for DPS and off-tanking if necessary, pet equipment for all the pets, Call of the Hero for emergency puller retrieval, e.g. critical failure on a pacifiy in a crowded LDoN room, and decent nuking ability.  Necro brings decent pet, ressurection assuming I can get a hold of the essence emeralds, snares, feign death, limited crowd control which like the Enchanter I'd probably never be able to fully utilize, and decent DPS through DoTs.  I think I prefer direct damage to DoTs.  I like being able to quickly burn down a runner or the current target in the event of an add.

Ideally, I'd have an evac'er (I'm not too worried about ports), but I just can't see adding a druid or a wizzie in place of the Mage/Necro.  I suppose this magnifies the FD ability of the SK.  In an emergency, the SK and the pets could keep the mobs occupied while the casters gate, then FD when everyone else is safe.

Actually, in writing this post I think I've solidified my picks, but I'd appreciate any input you all have.  I feel a bit guilty about not having a Beastlord in my group and soliciting advice on a Beastlord forum, but I felt that having a plate-based tank would serve me better in the long run.   I've learned a lot from the folks on this board and hope that as I progress with my merry band, I can help out others.

Thanks,
Goran

[bham]

Dont overlook druids: ports, back up heals, decent nukes, snare etc.

Its a tough call because you want to be fully self sufficient, so you want to cover all bases, but covering all bases in a 4-box can leave you short of DPS.

Tank/ cleric/ druid/ chanter covers all your bases but leaves you a little short of DPS.

I like having the beastlord in my group beause it covers tanking, slowing and single pulling (with pet) all in 1 toon. A beastlord will never tank as well as a plate tank with the same AAs and gear quality, but they do fine for LdoN (including level 70s) and DoN (I 4-box creator) and even RSS.

For you I would go Tank, cleric, chanter and either wizard or druid.

[Banvaren]

I 3-box a Paladin (my main), Cleric and Beast regularly. I have great success with that trio in places like MPG and RS. The only real hassle is that I have to rely on the Beast proc'ing with his Sap Encrusted Branch to snare mobs. If I could switch mains to an SK, I would do that in a heartbeat. That would allow me to snare the mob reliably, pull more effectively, and use the Beast for more DPS.

So for a 3-box I would say SK-Cleric-Beast is the best. If I had to add a 4th toon to my group, I would want it to be easy DPS with any utility as gravy. Easy DPS would be Ranger, Mage, Nec, Wiz or Druid. The easily used utility (has to be easy to use as a 4th toon) for each class is:

Ranger - AC buffs and tracking
Mage - pet toys for Beast, CotH and malo
Nec - FD, Rez and mana tapping
Wiz - ports and evac
Druid - ports, evac, buffs

Tracking is not that big of a deal, so no on Ranger. The SK can already FD and you have rezzes covered by the Cleric, so no on Nec. Anything you can do in a group with a Wiz you can do almost as well with a Druid, so no on Wiz. That leaves Druid and Mage.

I would pick Druid for evac, mana buffs, DPS when needed, and extra healing when needed.

So my vote goes to SK-Cleric-Beast-Druid.

[bham]

I find having 2 melee toons to be incredibly annoying when boxing. Good luck to you if you can make it work :)

[Khauruk]

Bards have the capability to do so much, but I don't think they'd be a good choice for a 4-box.  When you're mezzing more than one mob, you won't be able to slow/haste, or much of anything else.  Also, until the rather high end, slow %age still means a good bit (until you get to areas where they mostly mitigate), and that will hurt a lot more.

Warrior vs. SK - warrior can definitely tank much nicer.  Especially for hard mobs (defensive/evasive, anyone?)  Go to thesteelwarrior.org for more info on that difference...those guys probably have it parsed w/ 50 different variations of gear/AAs, etc,...

[Tiroon]

*snip*
I feel a bit guilty about not having a Beastlord in my group and soliciting advice on a Beastlord forum, but I felt that having a plate-based tank would serve me better in the long run.
*snip*

IMHO posts like your's are too good and the "what ifs" too entertaining to leave them to other boards. :-D

One question for you to mull over: With the way you're leaning don't you feel you're going to be very very light on mana regen, especially with your strong emphasis on self-sufficiency? Chanter mind buff and necro's mind wrack together would solve this problem nicely but having to control both in addition to the tank might be too much. Sure you can replace the chanter's mind buffs with pots but still...

[Banvaren]

I try to find a place I can corner tank the mobs, so controlling the Beast's melee is not too hard. If I do need to tank out in the open I just form a triangle with the Pal-Beast-Warder. That seems to work out pretty well.

[Goran]

I'd like to thank everyone who has responded so far.  I've read all the replies carefully and have been  trying to digest all of the information.  It seems likely that I under-valued mana regeneration when selecting potential team members.  I  guess that's probably because I've only used KEI a handful of times during my EQ "career", usually when some friends dragged me into a group.

I plan on using augments, elixirs, tribute, earring of the solstise, DoN cultural armour, and any other mana regenerating items I can grab with my team (including the Shawl quests with at least the cleric) to keep mana flowing.  I'm only really worried about mana with the cleric.  If I find mana regeneration to be a severe problem at later levels, I'll just have to add a 5th box with a bard mana/resist bot  or an enchanter.  Though I'd rather not add a 5th box, if the situation is dire enough I will do so.

So, after a lot of deliberation (I've spent way more time thinking about group composition than actually playing the last couple of days), I've decided to go with the following group:

SK, Cleric, Shaman, Mage

A few points of mana regen, and later on spells like Mental Corruption or Zevfeers Bite,  should be enough to cover the SKs snares and spears.  Shaman should never run low on mana with Canni (easily hotbuttoned).  Mage dps remains strong with the pet attacking while mage meditates and mod rods will provide a mana boost in "oh-no!" situations.  I have a level 52 druid on the same account as the mage.  If I run into situations where evac (or a port out  is the only feasible way out, like Charasis) is necessary I'll substitute the druid for the mage (after some levelling if necessary).

I'd like to thank everyone again for their input.  I'll give semi-regular updates on group progress if anyone is interested :)

Sincerely,
Goran

[Dakat]

I've seen both warrior, shaman, cleric and I've seen sk, shaman, cleric.

Either one works fine in almost every situation.  I'm sure others have mentioned it before, you will need a snare. Making your last member you add to your group with the warrior. With the SK, obvious you do not really need a snare.  Druids do offer this and are able to port you where you need to go and support heal, they are the best travelers in the game. SoW, SoE and ports. The only downside to a druid is their lack of dps in an overall picture. You do not really need their SoWs or their hp regen or their supplemental healing. That can be covered by the shaman.

If I were to start all over again with a 4 box group, I would go with an SK, Cleric, Shaman and Wizard.

The SK over the warrior, reason being, they do not need a weapon or some other skill to gain and maintain agro on a mob.

The Cleric, for obvious reasons.

The Shaman over a beast. With their malo line, even high end mobs do not stay unslowed for long. Whereas a beast, there's just some mobs we will never be able to slow. Granted the beast will have higher dps, but the buffs and the higher slow the shaman offers just can't compete, really.

With the wizard you have a high dps character that can port you just about anywhere a druid can and some places they can not. You do not need the druids heals, covered by the Shaman. Regen and sows are also covered by the Shaman. So substitute a wizard for a druid, the only thing you would replace is a substantial amount of dps and porter. Not to mention that the Wizard has a snare as well.

[jabby]

Goran's 4 box of

SK, Shammy, Mage, Cleric

is an excellent choice, one of the best for sure. The best all around three box is arguably SK, Shammy, Mage - adding the cleric makes that trio much better, able to take much tougher mobs yet keep good DPS as the shammy can add dps since he doesnt have to heal, and the buffs stack with cleric buffs. CC is accomplished with the SK FD pulling and cleric paci when neccessary. Also shammy AE slow + cleric group HoT. Really only thing missing is ports, defensive, mezz, kei.

Warrior, Cleric, Chanter, Wizard

is another great choice - the thing about the trinity, is once you get used to the chanter box its just so damn easy to play. I tried various 4 box combos and found that ease of play was much more important than i had thought. on paper, having a bard+pally+druid+necro sounds awesome, but in reality it sucks. sure the pally *can* heal+stun+tank, sure the bard *can* haste, slow, snare, regen manna, sure the druid *can heal, nuke, dot, snare, evac but doing it all or trying to every freaking pull gets old fast fast.

[bham]

Warrior, Cleric, Chanter, Wizard

is another great choice - the thing about the trinity, is once you get used to the chanter box its just so damn easy to play. I tried various 4 box combos and found that ease of play was much more important than i had thought. on paper, having a bard+pally+druid+necro sounds awesome, but in reality it sucks. sure the pally *can* heal+stun+tank, sure the bard *can* haste, slow, snare, regen manna, sure the druid *can heal, nuke, dot, snare, evac but doing it all or trying to every freaking pull gets old fast fast.

I agree totally with the above stuff.

If I was starting a 4-box from stratch I would use this combo.

Unless they change it in DoD, getting single pulls 90% of the time is easy, and you have a mezzer anyway. Theres no pets to push, no tricky spell combos, no outside buffs needed. You have best tank, best healer, best CCer / slower, decent DPS, snare, ports/evac, fixed invis, decent mana regen blah blah blah.

Pull mob, slow it, kill it... add 2 friends of any class for more fun.

[Goran]

<snip>

Warrior, Cleric, Chanter, Wizard

is another great choice - the thing about the trinity, is once you get used to the chanter box its just so damn easy to play. ...
<snip>

(Yes, despite my earlier post, I'm still open to changing group composition as I've only started levelling the cleric :) )

Greetings,

I was wondering if you could elaborate on the above quote, specifically how the chanter box becomes easy to play.  I've never played an enchanter and have only rarely grouped with one.  Perhaps I'm over-estimating the difficulty of running an enchanter effectively in a multi-box.

The primary concerns of my team are (I've added a bit more detail when compared with my first post):
  1)  Getting single pulls (planning to use buffed, shrewed SK pet as primary pulling tool).
  2)  Once the pull is in camp, killing it as quickly and as efficiently as possible (especially healing mobs).
  3)  Being able to focus pretty much all my attention on one character, hot-buttoning the rest.
  4)  Self-sufficiency.

Assuming pet pulling with the SK pet pans out, my current team meets those goals fairly well.  For the warrior/cleric/enc/wiz, to effectively pull, it seems that i'd have to use 2 or 3 characters to pull in tricky LDoN rooms, for example - wiz to send eye of zomm, chanter to lull (pray lull doesn't get critically resisted), warrior standing at the ready to fire arrow or take aggro from caster if spell is required to pull.  I'm already getting a headache thinking about that scenario.   But perhaps it's possible for the chanter to handle all the pulling single-handedly?  I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to handle CC with the enchanter, so that's not really a consideration.

Ports are not really that big of a deal to me.  PoK books, adventurer camps, and the Priests of Discord should cover most of my travel needs.  I also don't mind paying for the occasional port or running to my destination if necessary.  Some of my fondest memories in the game are of the many journeys throughout Norrath I took as a young Ranger in the pre-PoK days.

I compared wiz nukes with mage nukes and there's not  a huge difference.  Wizzies get a dizzying array of nukes, but a lot of them are PB AE or Targetted AE which will be next to useless in a 4-box.  I didn't actually crunch numbers, but I find it difficult to believe that a wiz nuking at a mana/aggro efficient level would outdamage a mage when considering pet dps and a nuke or two.  Also air pet stunning/bashing should help with caster mobs, which were the bane of my 2-box efforts and have caused me to avoid a number of zones.

I will admit that the warrior, cleric, chanter, wizard group sounds really good to me.  I'm just not sure it meets my concerns (especially pulling and killing speed) as well as SK, cleric, shaman, mage.   Though it definitely offers the best tanking.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Sincerely,
Goran

[jabby]

yeah, i played a chanter as my main for a couple years so boxing one is np but if youve never played one it would prolly be more difficult

basically what i did with trinity in exp situations was pull 3-5 mobs with warrior, depending on how many aggro messages you see, go defensive, cast HoT with cleric, and start mezzing one by one with chanter. I actually /assist the warrior and mezz his first target, so that if it gets resisted, chanter can re-mezz, since warriors initial aggro is enough from pulling. (make sure to turn off auto attack on warrior =p)

Chanter mezz generally lasts 54 seconds depending on lvl, once all mobs are locked down in camp, i break mezz with warrior, making sure he has aggro through taunt and incite, kill mobs one by one. you get used to having 3-4 mobs standing there in camp, and you get a little timer in your head for mezz duration after a bit its no problem.

Anyway, the synergy of /defensive + mezz+ cleric HoT (and AE tuant if needed) is just really nice with that trio, even in a box they can handle so many situations and are so hard to kill. just like in a real group, chanter lives everyone lives. Also having an evac not tied to your healer means you can try risky stuff and evac if you get over your head.

Having said that, SK pet pulling is awesome, and makes CC irrelevent in most situations. not to mention FD pulling - your 4 box should do very very well, even if they nerf pet pulling in the future you can still FD pull with SK. I also value mages DPS more than wizards (Bham would know best though), and certainly the shammy+SK will do more DPS than War+chanter. Your 4 box should be able to kill faster, and with 2 healers, better buffs and slow perhaps kill tougher stuff than the trinity 4 box.

[bham]

You can reduce the numbers of mobs per pull with 1 or 2 pacis to make them more manageable.

If you are worried about a resist, AE taunt plus evac will get you out of it. Theres no repops in ldon so you run back and try again.

[jabby]

bham,

out of your mage or wizzie, which one does more DPS, which one do you value more? I know youve had the mage longer than the wizzie, but do you find as the wizard gains aa's and high lvl spells his DPS grows really fast, outstripping the mage? Or is that not really the case?