Was reading the Inny server board when someone posts a ink to the Pally board that goeas to a thread about OoW aa's. Seen here: http://p202.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm22.showMessage?topicID=1372.topic
A few of them are whining about us being overpowered. But in the thread on the Inny board, the poster took the time to invite beastlords to go pleasure themselves.
Why the hell these people gotta be pointing at us all the time as being the poster child for class envy?
Oh its only natural that people overeact, beta has only recently started and the OoW lists will change before release.
One paladin simply pointed out our proposed "Roar of Thunder" is 1500dmg and a large stun up to L70. Paladins being "masters of the stun" its inevitable when other classes get any kind of stun paladins will look uneasy, however none of us know the re-use time or resist rates on this AA yet so its hard to say if will end up being useful or not.
No need to get upset.
Use distraction, mention either the Bard Fading memories AA (To drive monks into a frenzy) or that Druids are getting a rez spell (to involk the wraith of the Trinity Staple, Clerics) and everyone will forget about hybrids whining about other hybrids.
BC
From what i've heard it isnt a rez spell but more of a corpse summon thing, so it would drive the necros and sks mad.
No, its a "rez" spell. Cast it on a corpse, you get a yes/no box, click yes, you appear at your corpse.
1: You get NO exp
2: You can still get a exp-restoring rez
Basically, it will get the cleric/pally back to thier corpse in case they die, and not have to go get them.
Its not a cleic/pally type rez, you won't get exp.
Its not a corpse summon, your corpse stays in the same place.
Its a summon-to-corpse spell.
"Generalist" classes (Bard, Druid, Beastlord - the ones that do many things pretty well but no one thing quite as well as the specialists) are always the whipping boys for class envy. That's been true since a month after the game started. (Heck, that was probably true in beta.)
Get used to it. I played a Druid for the first couple of years of EQ, and the bitching was just as bad back then. The only difference is that we're the most recent popular target.
Quote from: XarilokNo, its a "rez" spell. Cast it on a corpse, you get a yes/no box, click yes, you appear at your corpse.
1: You get NO exp
2: You can still get a exp-restoring rez
Basically, it will get the cleric/pally back to thier corpse in case they die, and not have to go get them.
Its not a cleic/pally type rez, you won't get exp.
Its not a corpse summon, your corpse stays in the same place.
Its a summon-to-corpse spell.
It's better to just say it's a Body summon AA. Either way, shaman and druids are going to love it. I know I do :)
Consider it like a cross zone CoH for a naked person.
that will piss off the mages though Liga....
Seriously, I dont see what clerics would bitch, all druids are getting is the lv14(?) cleric rez pretty much. Looks more like a raid utility than anything else.
At least they didnt make it restore exp, that would be horrible.
Either it would have to be 90% or better, which would piss off pallies and clerics, or it would be 75% or less, which would screw them over just as much. Lets say it was 75, and the cleric bites it, and is needed back asap, so what happens?? The cleric eats a low % rez, when given a bit more time, they could have had a 96 or 100. Either way, if it had a exp restoration on it, it would have be horrible. At least SoE had the foresight to make it non-exp restoring.
Before visiting PoN, leave your IQ at the door. The board is being ruined by a very vocal and stupid minority.
I look at the AA as another chance for another two classes to contribute in case of a near wipe. It gives someone else besides paladins an ability to battle rez in case it's needed. It also gives you a chance have your backup healer do something if the main healer dies. I don't know how many times i was with a newbie cleric, trying to get them through Vxed/Tipt/Ikk trials only to have them die with their 5k hps buffed when something touches them. This happened to my group once in Vxed and I had to main heal for over an hour in a half to get back down to the entrance with the person's body so that we could get the cleric rezzed. Will save a lot of time I think and be very valuable. Prob one of the first that I'm going to purchase.
Honestly, I kinda agree with paladins on the AA they are complaining about us getting.
I don't think it makes much sense for us to have it either.
paladins whining about us getting a stun is so laughable, it was never written anywhere that they are the stun masters, they just degenerated into that because the cleric spell lineup had many (for cleric mostly useless) stuns.
so while they have a whole ton of stuns, its such a bad thing that we get an AA that will probably cost 50 AA total + a ridiculous reuse time,
sorry I cant agree with any whiney paladin on this matter,
regards
I agree with paladins only so far that this ability is pretty much useless for us (in a raid perspective) and could be pretty usefull for paladins. I dont agree that they should be the over all stun masters and nobody else should get a stun.
Stun master doesnt mean no one else should get one, but honestly why are we getting one? nowhere in 65 levels do we get any form of stun that isnt a pet proc. It doesnt fit us and have no problem with it being changed.
Pallies can showe their stunns. Imo Roar of Thunder with 72min reuse is totally useless and I won't be bying it anytime soon (if they ever puts this AA in the game). Lets have SoE give pallies roar of thunder AA instead of celestial stun and wait how much they will whine and cry about crap AA they got.
-Raz
Xalmat is probably drawing up a detailed chart for them as we speak.
Quote from: RhaynneHonestly, I kinda agree with paladins on the AA they are complaining about us getting.
I don't think it makes much sense for us to have it either.
The funny part is, from the thread on it elsewhere it sounds like it's not an AA most of us want anyway.
Hehe, I couldn't care less about the Rot AA. I was in a poor mood Friday, when I came across a few paladins saying f... beasts, and whatnot, and it irritated me.
Seriously, why can't people be advocates for what they want without trying to put down what others' have?
Reuse timers controls who is master of something. I'm not sure in what context we need a stun but maybe it's due to something we don't yet know about OoW.
We don't need a 72 minute stun. It doesn't make sense from a class perspective. It's a bit too close to a HT 2.0 anyway...lose it & give me some real DPS upgrades. Everything else I've seen I like though I still dunno if I'll be getting this expansion.
--Kreseth
Somewhere along the line it seems someone decided it was a beastlords role to forever listen to other classes endlessly complain about our abilities that we do not really care for or use much (i.e. 9 sec casting time heal, 72 min recast stun).
This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read and it was in that thread:
"You are correct. That AA is not what overpowers BLs. Slows, dots, a pet than can tank nearly as well as a player character, and mgbable paragon are what overpowers them.
Duke Superdorf"
Yeah our dots are uber! Thanks for pointing that out Mr. Superdorf LOL
Yessirree, MGB paragon does me a heck of a lot of good as an individual player.
Oh wait, no it doesn't. :P Seriously, I love seeing people complain about things that benefit them.
While waiting from Stromm to come up, was hanging out in general chat and saw the envy pop up. There was some talk going on about who'd "0wn" a Bard and someone popped up w/the "BLs are overpowered!" ranting about we need to be nerfed due to "uber slow"
/sigh
Normally, I might've bit, but, thanks to the all the terrific posts on the thread regarding "overpowered" question I was secure enough to know he/she/it had no idea what they were saying.
Knowledge is power...um, wait, maybe *that* makes up overpowered... :P
The thing that most paladins don't understand is that regardless of the re-use on this stun, it's not going ro jeopardize their function in a group. If it's 72min recast, it's a novelty and we can't use it but maybe once or twice in most exp groups. If it has a short recast time, we'll simply wind up dead every few minutes from grabbing aggro from the real tank.
We aren't tanks. Outside of something like normal LDoN (where the exp is TERRIBLE and a wet paper towel can tank) it is far more efficient and necessary in many cases to get a plate tank. No amount of stuns, heals, or slows will change that fact.
Quote from: PanthermaskThe thing that most paladins don't understand is that regardless of the re-use on this stun, it's not going ro jeopardize their function in a group. If it's 72min recast, it's a novelty and we can't use it but maybe once or twice in most exp groups. If it has a short recast time, we'll simply wind up dead every few minutes from grabbing aggro from the real tank.
We aren't tanks. Outside of something like normal LDoN (where the exp is TERRIBLE and a wet paper towel can tank) it is far more efficient and necessary in many cases to get a plate tank. No amount of stuns, heals, or slows will change that fact.
I can see it being usefull sometimes when soloing. There are times I wish I had a stun when a dying mob starts to slowly flee towards some other mobs. I have gotten killed every now-and-then when a mob got close enough to cause another mob to ADD. Usually my Warder's stun will do the trick, but if not things get hairy. But beyond that I can see it getting us killed more than helping us :)
Yeah, I can see it having usage when solo'ing. I was really only addressing the concern paladins are having in regards to their group function. Any belief on their parts that this stun is a threat to their supremacy as stunners or tanks is silly and uninformed.
This is no more of a threat to the Pallie Stun fuction than Ranger Trueshot is a danger to the Rogue DPS function.
Hmm, I've never noticed any class evey for BSTs in particualr. I think class envy is more of a circular thing like rock paper scissors
#War- envies PAL and SK for thier spells and utility
#Pal & SK - envy War for tanking ability and envy each other for various reasons (pets and stuns)
# Shaman - envies BSTs cause most 65's dont need their buffs anymore and bsts slow "good enough"
# Druid - envies clerics for rez spells and that MH spot they refuse to fill at higher levels (how many times have you seen a DRU on LFG wioth "wont be MH"?)
# Rog- envies anyone who can out DPS them except for wizzies (maninly rangers with their killshots or what be it)
# Mag- envies BST for pet power and heals (for some reason?) and wizzies for nuke damage.
# Wiz- envies chanters for versitality and mages for their pets.
# Necro - envy people who can get groups quickly (sadly they are often overlooked at higher levels).
#Ber- envies War and Rog for obvious reasons.
# Clerics - dont realyl envy anyone that much but tend to be stuck up as to where and why they will group ( More clerics than anyone else have prissy " Will only group in X spot " on lfg. Ironically this goes against the selfless healer RP aspect of their class (evil clerics aside).
# Ranger- envy those with fast "Now Loading" times ( and they more than druids deserve the new summon self to corpse AA).
# Monk- envy BSTs for hoggin their gear, rogs for DPS and SK's and Necro's for FD.
# BST- envies classes that dont have to pick up pet poop. Ok hmm. guess we envy classes that double attack maybe??
#Bard - envy classes who have time to actually chat in a group, and no carple tunnel classes. Hmm really maybe they just are more concerned about how they we're nerfed as oppsoed to how X calss is better than them. Also envy people who when they group aren't constantly asked to play this song or that song ( yet the bard feels somewhat compassion for the shaman).
# Enc- This vain class seems to evny other chanters rather than other classes.
well ok, I wrote this after a few beers .. but it seemed good when I started it.. hopefully someone will finish it a little better :)
Actually shaman envy BST because:
a) you are their hybrid class, yet are more powerful
b) your buffs mean so much more at 65 and up especially with someone maxed stats
c) mana regen. Shaman can only use their mana regen while standing still and it takes an infinite amount of casting to use it. Crappy in an environment that you are always on the move (like LdoN)
d) Pets. Shaman pets are so weak that even SKs have a better one at a lower level. They don't inately duel wield and only can if given two weapons
e) dps is so horrendous for shaman because of the length of fights and the agro associated with any form of dps for the shaman will instantly make them the main tank.
f) when you bring in slow mitigation into the equation.. then using a 65, 70 or 75% slow means jack shit. It all mitigates down to a certain pecentage and the only difference is that it will be overridden by the shamans.
g) tanking ability. With the insane agro on everything the shaman does, they will inevitably end up tanking things alot. This brings back the problem with them not having anything to protect them when getting beat on (like runes or some type of disc or whatever).
Quote from: ValsuviousActually shaman envy BST because:
[list deleted]
Perhaps the next expansion will get the shamans off our backs. ;) For example there's:
1. Group avatar, with an atk increase *and* a damage mod, compared to the fero line which is single target, less mana efficient and has longer recast;
2. Stat buffs, which according to Lucy do things like "increase damage mod by 5%" and "increase chance to avoid melee by 7%", which should value even those people who are stat capped. Additionally, even those buffs that add pure stats have curious new fields like: "Stats Cap(40)". I wonder what that "stats cap" field does for people who are at the stats cap..... :twisted:
What should make shamans even happier is the fact that at least as of the time of this post, there aren't any beastlord stat buffs at all. :)
3. That's just the public stuff. :)
Quotea) you are their hybrid class, yet are more powerful
b) your buffs mean so much more at 65 and up especially with someone maxed stats
c) mana regen. Shaman can only use their mana regen while standing still and it takes an infinite amount of casting to use it. Crappy in an environment that you are always on the move (like LdoN)
d) Pets. Shaman pets are so weak that even SKs have a better one at a lower level. They don't inately duel wield and only can if given two weapons
e) dps is so horrendous for shaman because of the length of fights and the agro associated with any form of dps for the shaman will instantly make them the main tank.
f) when you bring in slow mitigation into the equation.. then using a 65, 70 or 75% slow means jack shit. It all mitigates down to a certain pecentage and the only difference is that it will be overridden by the shamans.
g) tanking ability. With the insane agro on everything the shaman does, they will inevitably end up tanking things alot. This brings back the problem with them not having anything to protect them when getting beat on (like runes or some type of disc or whatever).Quote
A is not fact, it is opinion...and is hardly shown by your list here.
B depends on what you are looking for...Shaman have better regen and haste, and contrary to popular uber opinion the number of people capped on stats isn't that high. Ferine Avatar can be kept up on far more people than Fero.
C is true, but if you are in one location shaman self mana regen >> beastlord self mana regen.
D and E are basically the same thing. Beastlords do more DPS, and neither pet can tank for crap at the levels where B is true.
F Even with the highest mitigating mobs there are, BST Slow is still 11.7% more damage than Shaman slow, and for those mobs which DO mitigate to this level, that 11.7% damage is huge.
G Beastlords tank for crap...close enough that Shaman with Quiescence can tank nearly as well as a BST can.
I agree Shaman do need work...and have for a while. But Beastlords are not just flat out better like some are always trying to claim. Your list also ignores the things a shaman can do better than a Beastlord.
Quote from: ValsuviousActually shaman envy BST because:
a) "More powerful"? As powerful, maybe. The Shaman class doesn't lack for raid usefulness or solo power - more than Beastlords in many cases. When was the last time you saw a raid called off because none of the Beastlords could attend? I'd agree Shaman need some group-focused balance. (better heals, maybe)
b) Wha? Sure, SD and Fero are nice. So are Fo7, FA and Tribunal, for just about everyone.
c) Are you saying you do LDoNs so fast with your Shaman that you never have two and a half seconds to stand still and cast Canni 5?
d) I'll argue this one after OoW comes out.
e) Absolutely. DoT aggro needs some tuning, and Shaman are hit worst with the problem. (Necros can generally feign.)
f) Slow mitigation doesn't work like that. Read any of the 20 threads on the Crucible about it. (Take the mechanics and mitigated percentages with a grain of salt, though - I have yet to see anyone post a definitive set of parses.)
g) Would you rather have an arsenal of DR and MR based slows, debuffs that let slows land more often, plus Quiescence, or straight MR slows that bounce quite a bit and Stonestance? I quite like the slow + stonestance combo, but realistically it doesn't let me slow named raid mobs without a Shaman.
QuotePerhaps the next expansion will get the shamans off our backs. ;) For example there's:
That is not gonna happen because shamans wants to be better in every way than bsts, because shammies thinks they need better spell in every spell line. They will never will get SD nor SV line though, nor better pets nor pet buff/heal spells. That is why some of them keeps on whining till they or EQ dies. IMO
-Raz
Have to say I agree witht he above post. Sad as it may seems shaman seem to have more problems with other classes being more uber than them than any other class. And this is coming from someone who's old main was a shammy (sure I went shammy-sk-rog-mage and then BL, but still)...
I agree some of the shaman requests are becoming quite rediculous.
This is coming from a former shaman X2.
Also the crubicle has really went down in quality over the years. It used to be pretty similar to this site as far as informative posts and posters.
Every class in the game claims something as thier "main traits" leaveing hybrids in a pickle since just about everything is claimed and we have to be weaker at everything to keep the peace. Oh wait - that doesn't even do it.