New Expansion and High End Beastlord Equipment

[Oiingo]

I have yet to see anything discussing what sort of items we'd like to see in the next expansion, so perhaps this forum would be a fine place to discuss it.  If we're lucky, maybe a developer or two could run with some of our suggestions.

Weapons: I'd really like to see an end-game pet proc weapon.  I don't want debuffs or the prototypical fire and cold DDs.  Pet weapons were fun and could be again.  If they could integrate this into our intelligent weapon, that'd probably be the most logical place for it.

Equipment: More ``other stuff'' effects.  it's pertty clear that they aren't going to change the Anguish class-only gear another time, so it'd be pretty dandy if they could throw heal and mana preserveration focii on whatever our next logical upgrades end up being.  345 HP/mana base, anyone?

[Tastian]

This is going to sound kinda crazy, but I'd like to see some good beastlord items in the next expansion.  I'm talking really crazy stuff like...


-  Weapons that are actually an upgrade

and

-  Armor with good effects


If the expansion has half a dozen more +cold focus, half a dozen more +fire focus and weapons like 2h from MPG I won't surivive the expansion.

Combo focus effects that fit the class would be amazing.  Weapons that fit with progression and either work with our procs or offer innate boosts to things like our DA would be nice.  I'm sick of wearing quarm bracer for haste and chali mask for healing focus. 

[Strigori]

Unless they decide to fix our melee, or do more class only weapons(they already shot that one down) our weapon choices are still going to be the same type that we have now, balanced for everyone but beastlords.   And for the love of god, no more monk/bst or bst only weapons with procs that cant crit.  There are many things that would be cool if they do it(or do it right) but that remains to be seen, and it  apears they are making all the content for it before getting the dps balancing done, but whats new there. 

[Gudaman]

They should place a system like eveything else where we would get a raid drop and have to turn into a npc to get a class specific weapon. Like qvic mold's, Anguish no drop item's , spells . . . .  That way a weapon won't have tobe directed to just one class kinda like our epic 1.5 / 2.0 but w/o all the questing and stupid fights.

[Strigori]

rashere or zajeer(i forget which) directly vetoed weapon molds.

[Rhaynne]

rashere or zajeer(i forget which) directly vetoed weapon molds.

That is so short-sighted and retarded.

[Bengali]

rashere or zajeer(i forget which) directly vetoed weapon molds.

That is so short-sighted and retarded.

There are actually a couple of reasons for this but one of the biggest is that it's a database/workload issue.  Right now Zajeer can look at a given level of progression and make for example:

a 1hs that's war/rog/brd/rng
a h2h that's bst/mnk
a 2hs that's pal/shd/zkr

Weapon molds would mean that instead of making 3 items for that level of progression, he has to make 9.  And he has to do this many times throughout the expansion, because no one is going to just want to have 1 or 2 weapons be available via mold (and if they did, then it's not much different than just having a few class specific drops scattered about).   Also, they have to create an NPC, and script a quest for it (even if it's a simple turn in quest), and since we're talking about a lot of potential items per class (casters are going to want in on the action too).

Also, weapon molds actually decrease the options for a lot of classes, unless Zajeer does even more work to create variation within the mold system.  Again, right now there could be:

a 1hb that's war/rog/bst/brd/rng/mnk
a 1hp that's war/rog/bst/brd/rng
a 1hs that's war/rog/rng/brd
a 2hb that's war/rng/bst/mnk/zkr/pal/shd
a 2hs that's war/rng/pal/shd/zkr
a 2hp that's war/pal/shd/zkr/rng/bst
an h2h that's bst/mnk
*a 1hb/1hs that's pal/shd

With 8 total items he's created:

6 different options for warriors
3 different options for rogues
5 different options for beastlords
6 different options for rangers
3 different options for bards
3 differnet options for monks
4 different options for paladins
4 different options for shadowknights
3 different options for berserkers

In order to duplicate that via a mold system, he'd need to make 37 items instead of 8, and again we're just talking melee/hybrid primary/secondary items.  When you add in caster/priest items (just primary/secondary), range weapons (bows, throwing) and the quest scripting it's a lot more work than what exists now.

It's also a band-aid fix, because it effectively bases balancing on the assumption that everyone has their "tailored" weapons, and the real culprit is the class abilities themselves (or the lack of them, with respect to beastlords).

[sunkash]

rashere or zajeer(i forget which) directly vetoed weapon molds.
"my pet says .. kick'm in the n*tzz"

I'll second this as nothing more than just pure BS:

Don't fall for ye'ole database excuse, to me it's one of two things on the programmers part:
1. just to lazy to bother with creating new items just for beastlords "why they still playing anyways, they must be saying, they can't seem to understand we don't want
them anymore"
2. they're just never going to do anything for the beastlord's, that's pretty apparent in the last year or 2 of seeing many other classes getting fixes & upgrades, while we're left asking
and asking for very little and just get told one of two things, no, or we'll look into it, then get told no later.

every expansion SOE creates so much useless new stuff that's nothing but vendor fodder; i.e TRASH! if they really had an issue with too much stuff in the database, that would be the first place they'd be cutting back.

why is it that when they come out with some new item that is monk, druid, beast useable that it's always us that has to live with it not being something we can use? Fire focus on high end beast equipment is real a sad state of affairs, and then to have people actually stick up for the SOE programmers , is  really a sad day for our class.

PoP has patterns that could be used to create class specific gear, and to me that seemed to work pretty well, but now apparently the database is getting crowded so we have to live with fire "and other to us useless effects" so that when the new expansion comes out they can still create a few hundred new completely useless vendor fodder items? Let's call that for what it is... a very lame excuse, heavy emphasis on the lame part.

Originally as I understand it when beastlords were created, we're hybirds of shaman, monks, with a little ranger thrown in. Now many patches later, seeing our parent classes get littlerally "boatloads" of fixes, upgrades, very nice DSP, and very nice upgfades in spells going from 65-70, and us getting very close to nothing, to me its apparent that SOE just does not want our class to exist.  Early this spring during one patch, that I will always refer to as the "monk patch", they had their AC mitigation fixed, and they must have been 20+ other things that said "improved monk' something, yet months later here we sit, getting nothing patch after patch after patch. Seeing people here on our boards justifying why we can't get gear that has a focus effect we could acutally use?  == a sad state of affairs for our class. Rangers get inate tripple attack, can we get double attack answer NO your a beastlord.. go away, we got better classes to worry about.

Going from 65-70 for me was useless, my DPS increase could only be barely noticed by long parses with a parser, and it was such a minimal amount, there's just no difference in me soloing where I was able to solo at 65, then at 70; takes the same amount of time to kill the same mobs as it did then, and I get almost no experience from them. Can't take on any harder mobs than I could then, although I've tried. The 68 pet is really a joke, don't have the 70 yet but don't expect it will be much better. The spells are little more than a cruel joke.

Last patch we were supposed to get some fixes to pet focus effects, even stated so in the patch messages, but read that they did not go live. However I have noticed since the patch,
as have other pet owners I've talked to, that pet crits, were either nerfed, or broken after the patch. I've had all 5 levels of pet crit since level 64, "quite a while", but now pet almost never crits. I've pretty much given up on SOE ever doing anything for our class, and at some point when I completely give up, it'll just be one more beastlord retired from the game, and that seems to be what SOE really wants.

[Strigori]

I agree that its total BS about weapon molds. It is no different that armor molds.  Think epics, but without the quests.  This alone would beable to do to balancing what having more than 2x as many total weapons could ever do.  There doesnt need to be a 1hb, 2hb or h2h for monk or bst, just 1.  Its not much different than having class weapons in general, that for whatever reason seem to always fall, in the lions share, to Knights, bards and rangers.

[Bengali]

You guys are right -- it's not much different than armor molds, which is the reason Zajeer doesn't want to do it.  Armor molds are a lot of work too, which is why they aren't used for the majority of armor.  Zajeer didn't say that it was impossible to do weapon molds -- he essentially said it's not worth the effort of having to do seperate database entries for each class, for every level of weapon he wants to add, and to design a quest for them and so on.

You can't really justify adding the extra workload for weapon molds by saying that he already does a similar amount of work for armor molds.  It's kind of like your boss telling you that you shouldn't have any problems working 60 hours a week because you're already willing to work 40. 

Also, all weapon molds do is provide an avenue for bst-specific items to enter the game, and lower the chance that they will rot.  Weapon molds do nothing to keep the end result from totally sucking.  I mean, just look at the bst-specific stuff we get now, even through specifically tailored quests.  The Vish neck is garbage.  All that effort to come up with a bst-specific item that's the result of a turn-in, and we get something that's basically a copy of the monk item with a few stats changed around and a different slot.  Our Anguish pants have the same cold focus that's on the Sorrowmourn stone, which incidentally is the same kind of focus that's on our epic.  Speaking of our epic, it has a focus effect that is outdone by a simple range item from the first named mob in the Anguish.  Our MPG weapon is a total joke.  The list goes on and on.  If we don't find a way to convince the devs that they should put more thought into the design of our weapons (and other gear), then it won't do any good to convince them to give us armor molds. 

Just think about it for a minute.  You know the end result would be that we get our "armor mold," turn in it in, and then end up with an almost exact copy of the 2hb that rangers get, or a near-identical copy of the monk weapon except we'll have a 150-point cold based DD on it, and they'll get fire DDs or lifetaps.  The devs would need to be willing to come out and explain to the hordes of angry monks that the reason we got a weapon with an insane ratio or a really huge DD and they didn't is because we don't have double attack and our pets/spells are anemic.  Do you really think they're ready to do that at the moment?  They haven't even acknowledged there's a problem yet.  ;)

[Strigori]

And becuase they havnt acknowleged the problem(at least not publicly), then we are in a far worse spot using the exact same weapons that monks, rangers, warriors and the like use.   Ultimatly they are left with 3 choices. 
1- upgrade or base abilites so the disparity doesnt glare on weapons like it does now.
2- more bst only weapons designed with our needs in mind, though this option WILL anger monks(but what wont?)
3- continue to refuse there is a problem with the weapons. 

Part of the disision will involve politics with other classes, and untill the devs want to say to hell with the monk/mage/shaman whiners we will remain limited.   

Its not really that much work, there are alot of class only weapons that drop out there, by taking it to molds, the overall number of weapon drops can be scaled back signifigantly, therby not increasing workload.   There isnt a difference between having molds that go to multiple classes, and class only weapons droping off different mobs. The only difference is really how they drop.  And that all classes will benifit not just the ones that already have a heavier class only itemization.

[Bengali]

It's only less work if they basically do something like have a couple of armor molds per class, and then every bst ends up with the same two weapons at the end of it.  People will then complain about everyone looking the same and having the same equipment.  It's a lot more work to maintain the same number of existing options, which I showed already.

Putting all that aside, the biggest issue is that it puts the cart before the horse.  Zajeer isn't on board yet with the idea that as it stands now, beastlords need weapons with far better ratios than what other classes get in order to remain competitive.  Rytan isn't on board that our spells need some work so that we can actually use them to make up for our lack of melee.  He also isn't on board with respect to our pet dps.  Until they are on board for that, then armor molds will just be a way to keep stuff from rotting.

But personally I don't think that anyone is complaining about stuff rotting.  I also think the idea of generic molds is overly romanticized.  If Hanvar drops a mace, then a beastlord will get it if they don't have one already.  If he drops a "primary weapon mold," then anywhere from 8 to 15 other classes will also want it (depending on if these quests are melee/hybrid only or if they apply to all classes).

Here's a question to consider:  Why is it that the bst class-only items are always among the last, if not *the* last, to be discovered?  it's at least partially because beastlords have figured out that our class items run a risk of not being worth the DKP or that guilds who award things on merit have figured out that they are better off going to a class with more useful abilities.  Do we think that would change with weapon molds?

There is only one other melee-ish class without double attack, and that is bards.  Bard itemization is far from perfect, but if you look at a bard-only weapon you'll see it's head and shoulders above ours.  For example, the bard Tacvi weapon has a percussion mod, an okay ratio (still not that high in light of the lack of double attack though) and a right click 60% haste, 50 atk/50 str buff (can be cast on others).  That is a weapon that actually tries to address what it is that bards do.

That same level of thought is totally absent from out itemization.  Our weapons don't help our spells at all (except for the epic, which does it worse than comparable gear that we can get).  Our weapons don't increase pet damage at all, and mind you that pet damage is supposed to be helping to bridge the gap between us and the melees who have double attack.  Unless you mem several nukes and chain them, the dps on them is awful.   Even if you do chain them, the gap between other melees and us is still incredible, particularly if they get a good weapon.

One of our guild's warriors, who's usually an MT, looted a Warsper of Vexation as a "DPS weapon" for when he's not tanking.  He immediately broke 410 dps without even trying, on a raid mob in Anguish.  The warspear, for the record, has a worse ratio than our MPG 2hb, the Cudgel of the Watchful dragorn.  The cudgel didn't even outdamage my Qvic weapon combo.

In order for me to break 410 dps on an Anguish raid mob, a whole lot of stuff has to go right.  I need to cast a lot of spells, and they all need to land.  I need to use a disc.  My pet needs to get a lot of lucky hits.  I need to crit like there's no tomorrow.  I'm also just assuming that it's even possible for me to do -- I actually haven't yet managed to reach that on an Anguish raid mob.  And again, we're talking about a warrior, who can tank me under the table, and we're forever hearing about how there is an inverse relationship between tanking ability and DPS ability for the most part.  I give up a crapload of tanking ability as a bst, but I don't seem to have gotten dps or even utility in return.

(I know someone might mention the ability to slow is powerful utility, but that's not much consolation for a bst in my position.  I could easily go an entire month without even memming a slow spell, much less actually having to cast it in a situation where it makes a difference).

I'll go back to what I said originally:  the problem is that our abilites are so borked that weapons don't do as much for us as they should.  If we place the burden of fixing that on new weapons with unheard of ratios or abilities then it means that beastlords who don't get those new weapons will be behind the curve.  In other words, even if there were an armor mold that resulted in a 60/20 bst only weapon, if that is what it takes to bring us up to speed then anyone who hasn't yet gotten their mold is going to be underpowered.

At one time, our spells + pet damage might have been enough to compensate for our lack of double attack.  This might still be true at certain levels even now, but I'm not sure.  I can say it's not true as you progress to the higher levels of the game, and this effect is trickling down to more and more beastlords every day.  Unless my pet is putting out a lot of hidden damage (maybe it is, but I can't see how much damage my pet is doing via procs, which is another part of the problem), I'm just way behind others in terms of DPS even when I'm ahead in terms of gear.

[Strigori]

Basicly my point 3.  Untill they acknowlege our issues we are stuck. and as nrytan, rasheere or zajeer do not play bsts(its debatable if they have any high end first hand play knowlege, not talking studio work here) we are still in the boat of being screwed.  Its either they are ignorent and blind to the facts presnted, or they are lieing to us, and letting the issues go to keep other classes quiet.

[Discordant]

If I see another leather item or item in general with the Pyrilien Vengeance Focus, I'm going to have my warder maul whoever is in charge of itemization.  That being said, its not much to ask for them to actually look at the beast armor itemization (Especially from Anguish) and retune it.  It extremely difficulty to balance focus effects nowadays with the items that they give. I don't know what they were thinking in Tacvi and Anguishi itemization but its a joke.