Need more h2h-weapons

[Bengali]

If they do roll over on this, I think all classes should get a 250 weapon skill in everything just to make it fair.

Warriors get better weapon skills than Knights better give them 250 as well.

Does that make sense?

:?

Nox

Well, like Choppin said, the point isn't having the same skill caps as other classes so much as it's having all your own skill caps at the same level so that you aren't forced into using one weapon type.  Aside from looks or proc types, it doesn't make a difference to a knight whether their 2h is piercing, slashing or blunt, nor does it matter if their 2 1h is blunt or slashing.  For us, the weapon type makes such a huge difference that it's almost nonsensical at times.

There are bst-only piercing weapons, for pete's sake, and it's our lowest skill.  They have hinted that our OoW epic will be 1hb, and it's our lowest skill.  There are all sorts of mnk/bst 1hb weapons and that is our lowest skill.  The top 2hb weapons are mnk/bst and that is our lowest skill.  We can loot items with better ratios than what we're using now and actually lose melee dps.

Does any of *that* make sense?

Anyway, here's an exact quote from the November 7, 2001 patch message:

** Skill Changes **

- Bard Piercing cap was raised to 250 at 60th level.

Why didn't they make this happen through aa?  Why didn't they insist that bards go through some quest to improve their characters?  What is the justification for fixing a stupid game mechanic for bards and making beastlords (or warriors, or rangers) have to jump through hoops to get something fixed that is just as dumb?

Heck, even if they raised the cap to 250 at 65th level that would still require beastlords to do more work than other classes to cap their skill, since others could just get it at level 60 and we'd have to gain 5 additional levels of xp in order to cap ours.  Would that be enough extra work for you?

[Tastian]

"Why didn't they make this happen through aa? Why didn't they insist that bards go through some quest to improve their characters?"

I think it's obvious beng that there is no need or reason to use AA to make such a change.  Every since AA went live you see everyone treating it like the be all end all of ways to fix and change things.  You don't need AA for every bug you don't need more AA to offset current AA issues.  Fix what is there.  There is already a standing precedant for fixing just such an issue.  In most cases a beastlords max dps won't even change, but they won't lag behind if they don't get the hth drops and they won't be so boggled when looking at new weapons.  Every other class in the game knows how an 18 on 20 piercer verse a 19 on 20 1hb ranks for them.  Why on earth a beastlord has to post here, use cop's spreadsheet or make me parse for 7 hours just to figure out that 18 + 1 on 20 1hb < 18 on 20 hth is beyond me.

[Kherash]

It's just a matter 1) the number of H2H items that drop (Which is almost none) in the EP's and beyond (Time/GoD) and 2) the rarity of the drops of the above mentioned items.

I currently wield 2 1hb myself, and I know I suffer some attk rating. However, I am not going to "downgrade" my weapons (Ex: Battle fists) just to have some extra attk. I pefer better overall stats (Ratio, Raw HP/Mana, etc...) than attk rating.

[Atropine_BB]

All I want is for SOE to...

Please raise all of our weapon skill caps to 250!!!

There are so many nice weapons out there that I pass on because H2H is capped so much higher than our other weapon skills.

I'm stuck dual wielding VIC until I can get my hands on FoVR or BF.

Please raise all our weapon skill caps to 250!!!!

[Rhaynne]

I currently wield 2 1hb myself, and I know I suffer some attk rating. However, I am not going to "downgrade" my weapons (Ex: Battle fists) just to have some extra attk. I pefer better overall stats (Ratio, Raw HP/Mana, etc...) than attk rating.

The problem with that is you are doing less overall dps than you would with lower tier weaponry.  A battle fists, for example, has a crappier ratio than both of the weapons you use, but due to the loss of attack, it does more dps than both.  The same is true of an augged Slaves Hidden Orb.

Yes, the hps and mana may be better, but you are doing less damage... which should not be the case.

[Noxdowne Draggout]

Okay I will reply from a non role playing point of view.

Is it possible that beastlords were intended to have a 225 skill in all weapons and in the end they decided to give us a higher h2h skill for those that complete their epic?

Is it possible that they then decided to give the people beyond thier epics the ability to go above and beyond the intended dps by at least offering to the select few the best h2h's in the game as an upgrade?

I think this is 100% possible.

Just because you become EP flagged or because you have access to the best drops in the game that doesn't make you automatically guaranteed an upgrade.

Yeesh god forbid you actually have to do effort and devotion to get an "amazing" weapon.

For the rest they give us Vic's ans SHO's that are available to anyone who wants to have a great ratio for an EASY weapon to acquire. Yes EASY, they make take time, but by no means do you have to be uber to have either.

For all of the complaining on class boards about how the game has changed to a game of hand outs and ease, I am surprised that people take the approach that reward for work is a bad thing.

Damn I want my epic to be given to me when I hand in my letter to the guildmaster too.

Sorry you have to earn anything.

As far as epic2 I guess we will have to wait and see the ratio they give if it is 1hb, because I can just about guarantee that the ratio will suck if it is a 1hb and every tom dick and harry has the higher skill level.

Assuming it is a 1hb and you earn your epic2 then you should get a higher ratio to compensate for the lower skill level.

If everyone has the skill then those of us that can EARN epic2 will have to pay the price so uber twink whiner can have his higher 1hb skill or so that Time flagged person x has to put time into an upgrade.

Better explaination?

I could go on and on about why people should be quiet and accept what we were given.

Be thankful they gave us a 250 skill in h2h and I would laugh my ass off if they said this:

"you are correct, we never should have given the 250 skill and made the other skills weaker, you can all have a 225 skill in everything so you don't feel abused"

Knights have a lower skill than warriors, we have a lower skill than monks, it is called being a hybrid.

Get over it already.

If they made it an aa skill then you would have earned the higher ability as I described in my earlier posts and other classes (and some beastlords) would not view the skill increase as a hand out to a class full of jealousy.

Little Johnny has a new bike I want one too.

:(  bards got a higher skill and I want one too  :(

Good grief.

Nox

[Tastian]

Dude seriously here's a puppy...

"Yeesh god forbid you actually have to do effort and devotion to get an "amazing" weapon. "

Effort?  Devotion?  Talk to me after 15 xegony kills with NO wraps.  Talk to me after 7 TZ kills with NO battle fists.  Talk to me after 31 F1 minis and NO spfs.  Talk to me after watching 12 SEMs drop and knowing that it's a DPS downgrade for you and only you.  

"I think this is 100% possible. "

Just about anything is 100% possible, but guess what?  We play in the here and now.  Whatever might have been intended 3 years is out the window for the most part and things need to happen to address how things currently are.  The lower caps are an issue and so is overall beastlord dps.  Do me a favor and look over some parses of highend GoD classes and explain to me when a warrior out parses a beastlord for dps.  Let's see how you feel if you still have those SPF and VIC well you are raiding txevu or if you like many other high end beastlords turn to piercers and 1hb.

"Knights have a lower skill than warriors, we have a lower skill than monks, it is called being a hybrid. "

I <3 all these people that keep randomly throwing around the term hybrid when it seems to suit their case.  We are a class built to do a certain job.  Are you going to tell me they should nerf ranger archery because it's far and above what warriors get?  

"If they made it an aa skill then you would have earned the higher ability as I described in my earlier posts and other classes (and some beastlords) would not view the skill increase as a hand out to a class full of jealousy. "

Anyone that views this as an issue of class jealousy seriously missed the point and the bus.  We are talking about beastlords in the context of beastlords and things that need to be done to help beastlords.  Once you recognize that weapon skill caps are an issue then you look at the game overall.  You see that this isn't an issue for others and certainly not to the degree it is for beastlords you see the bard change from 3 years ago and that gives you context for how these things have been handled in the past.

No one said "bards get 250 piercing we should too" no one said "warriors get XXX we want that too".  People went "we have major weapon itemization problems"  Then people went "well our weapon selection is further limited by these lower skill caps" then people went "well they should be raised up to be even with what we already have for skill caps in other cases".  Then and only then did the fact that bards were in this same situation years ago and that they simply had their stat caps fixed come into play.  Are you telling me that during kunark my ranger should have had to grind out more levels to get the defense skill cap increase he recieved?  I mean seriously man you still have yet to give one reasonable explaination for your pov outside of weak RP and "possible".  

"Good grief."

No kidding.  If you still think this is remotely related to class envy or simply can't offer a valid and logical game mechanics related explaination for your opinion then just let it go.  *shrugs*

[mrowrr]

The fact that almost no other classes have this skill cap desparity, the fact that beastlords don't even have it until what level?

Do we have this disparity because our pet is included in the whole picture?  Or is it just lack of insight from SOE, obviously the fact were lacking in weapon skills has been a disparity since Luclin.

Also if they raised 1hb could you give us an indication on what the average beastlord would see in a dps boost from having more skill in 1hb over hth.   Like what's the dps % disparity?

I ask this because I solely use 1hb as my weaponry these days.  I have bagged all my HtH because I can't get ratio or stats that come near what I'm getting from the 1hb's I use.

[Kherash]

Yes, the hps and mana may be better, but you are doing less damage... which should not be the case.

I find the dps difference not to be that significant. I am not going to pass a much superior weapon in every aspect just to "eek" out some dps. My goal is not to obtain the max dps in the game, but obtain "better" gear. I'll take my CoW over BF anyday of the week.

[Tastian]

One of the examples I keep going back to is the aug'd SHO verse SEM.

SHO OH is ~40.77dps
SEM w/current cap is ~39.44dps
SEM w/250 cap is ~41.47dps

This will vary a *TON* like all weapon calcs based upon skill and stats, tanking and not etc.  However, in this case the SEM is a dps DOWNGRADE as it currently stands, but would be a dps UPGRADE simply by fixing the cap, thus giving beastlords another weapon option for progression.  Overall you are talking probably a 5% or so drop in dps just by using a lower weapon skill.  Remember that we aren't only talking atk value here, but also lower skill so your hit ratio is lower as well.

[Rhaynne]

Also if they raised 1hb could you give us an indication on what the average beastlord would see in a dps boost from having more skill in 1hb over hth. Like what's the dps % disparity?

You can do that yourself just by using Corp's spreadsheet and changing your weapon type to HtH.

In your case... I calced this based on fighting even cons, from the rear (not tanking).

Your current dps: ~139.98
If 250 capped: ~145.05

I'm not a math wiz, but that is right around 4-5%

[Tastian]

"My goal is not to obtain the max dps in the game, but obtain "better" gear."

This can be a contradiction though.  Sometimes "better" gear simply means more dps.  We aren't always getting hit or tanking, we aren't always slowing, etc.  I walk into some groups and go "hrmmm I'm here because they couldn't find a rogue" lol.  Depending on raid makeup a lot of beastlords will find themselves in much more of a dps role than a utility role.  It depends how many shaman/slowers/ots/etc are there, but the fact remains that sometimes the only thing that makes one piece of gear "better" than another is that it boosts your damage.  

Also understand that we are talking about having more options.  Why is it that for every other class in the game a weapon like an SEM off-hand is a dps upgrade and stat upgrade for them, but because of lower skill caps a beastlord now have to choose stats or dps?  Why is it when a mnk/bst weapon drops every monk knows it's an upgrade to them and they want it, but beastlords are doing calculations in their head about how much dps they'd gain or lose and then weighing that againist the stats they'd gain or lose, etc.  You have many weapons that are just "better" for every other class in the game, but for a beastlord and what that beastlord wants they might not be.  If HtH weapons were more common and not so crazy rare I don't think you'd see this being nearly the issue it is.  However, especially since we duel wield and need 2 weapons instead of just one two-hander the issue get's even worse.  Even if you catch fists off TZ, do you now wind up with fists + SHO till time?  Talking about GoD weapon itemization is just bad too.  8(  I know a lot of beastlords that are just now using piercers and blunts simply because that's all they had access too.  These aren't people slacking and saying "gimme phat lewts" these are people that are the victim of several overlaping issues (itemization, skill caps, etc).

[Tastian]

Oh and I also want to mention before someone else stats how minor some of these numbers are just how things work later on.  A skill like feral swipe for 9AA is going to take work to get you a 1dps upgrade.  If you have a DPoC focused sorsha pet and go from WF0 to WF5 you will see ~2dps boost and that's 15AA.  The differance of ~5% melee damage is pretty sizeable compared to many other boosts in the game.  To give you an idea right now someone using two 1hb/pierce/etc is likely down about as much damage from not having the same skill caps as what most beastlords are down right now from BF5 being bugged.  Look at how many people are upset over that and how quickly people chimed in to see that fixed.

This really is just a silly issue that I've yet to see someone give a reasonable/logical explaination for.  Beastlords already suffer enough de facto weapon penalties as it is and to further force them toward the least available weapon type is simply an issue that is well beyond do for a fix.

[Aneya]

A few points.

With the addition of GoD weapons, H2H itemization is moot unless you are doing GoD or Elemetal/Time planes.

Beyond that I would agree that our choice in H2H weapons is slightly limited. Ok, practicaly non-existant. Re: 2 h2h weapons in Elemental planes, 1 in Time, 1 in Vxed.

However this whole argument is rediculous considering that our best dps weapons are actualy Spiked Steel Baton and Ethereal Destroyer which get around the whole skill cap problem entierly since the proc accounts for a large portion of these weapon's dps.

Now considering the issue of skill caps, I find it rediculous that Cudgel of Wrecking and Dagger of Distraction provide less DPS than Savage Platinum Fist.

If our skill caps are not raised, our weapon upgrade profile is rather slim. Its basicaly SPF --> Shinai --> HoCM --> ED --> SSB.

Yes thats right ED is more dps then HoCM. kinda sad.

[Kherash]

With the addition of GoD weapons, H2H itemization is moot unless you are doing GoD or Elemetal/Time planes.

Funny thing is that many guilds are now reaching EP status across the servers. This, in turn, will force many Beast lords to make a hard decision on what to grab next as an upgrade. Praying for Xeg wraps to drop is like asking Elvis to come back to Las Vegas. Beyond the EPs, it is far worst as you've stated.

I think the next question we should ask ourselves is this: Should we base our "dps" solely on procs now?? I have a hard time swallowing this. I do no think SoE intended us to get the best proccing weapon in the game. /looks for an ED   :shock: