Beastlord dps...

[Jalorm]

I would love to see a boost in sustained melee dps as well as burst dps.  However, with our ability to slow as well as tank, a boost in melee dps maybe too much in SOE's eyes.  And if we do get a boost like double attack skill, our aggro issues will get even worse.

As far as for slow resists, they are a PITA.  One idea I have is a Geerlok device clicky casting an unresistable mr/fr/cr/pr/dr debuff that gets overwritten by Tash/Malo/Mala.  Would have 20 charges and is recharged using class 5 mana batteries.  This would allow all classes not just us to debuff mobs when a shaman/enchanter/mage is not around yet for a price.

p.s.  First post, I lurk no more.

[Lheo]

First things SoE needs to do is : Up our dps, boost our pets and give us GROUPbuffs (not better then our singlebuffs but groupversions) lower casttime on buffs, etc...and then when we should get "too" powerful, up the other classes dps too....

for years to come i think we will see coming a class skill tree where everyone will have to make a choice to further advance thier chars: ala more petpower OR more meleedps (like AC2) which would be nice when its balanced of course...(cause SoE cant boost lvls and only aas forever..)

[Skratchen]

First of all, not only do I agree with Tastian 100%, but I've mentioned the very same issue of beastlord's dps being problematic over time and progression due to how the bst class achieves it's dps in such a fragmented manner.  And I also agree that itemization could be one way to solve the issue.  

Another possible way would be for perhaps a way to train at certain levels to *over-cap* either our weapon skills, offense skill, or both.  The skill over-cap suggestion could simply raise the amount of damage a beastlord could do via melee with the same weapons they've always had and wouldn't necessarily need all new weapon itemization.  Another possible idea would be that the developers make beastlord usable weapons show a different value for damage/delay than whatever the damage/delay would be for other classes.  I don't know if either of these ideas are feasable or even if they're the right kind of ideas that you have in mind Tast, but I just thought I'd throw them out in the open.

Now about beastlord AA's, yeah we have to save and spend what seems like double to triple the amount of aa's that other classes do in order for us to approach a similar percentage of damage increase via aa's.  That just doesn't seem fair to me.   If SOE were to give beastlords more beastlord-only aa's, I'd prefer that those aa's would either be passive or replace some of my other hotkeyed special attack aa's.  I'm out of room for hotkeys and giving us more hotkeys to use is not going to be easy to make functional and convenient on my screen.  I suspect that I may not be alone in regards to that issue.  

Anyway, keep up the good work Tastian.  Just knowing that you're in our corner gives a lot of us hope that the class that we enjoy playing so much won't fade away beyond repair.

[jitathab]

I have seen this creeping up on us for ages and when I mentioned it 6-9 months ago I just got told I was mad.

Our DPS has slipped relative to everyone so that a Clerics pet can give us a close run on total output on XP groups.

We have no utility now.
Paragon is gimped and usable every 72 mins, give us the ability to use 36 mins and 18 mins and then its useful.
The rest of our buffs are single cast - this means we can not do any DPS for 5 minutes while rebuffing the group - the only group spell is only availabel from GoD - and no one who needs it can get it.
Our haste has not been upgraded.
The slow does not land often enough. We can not slow in many zones.
The upgrades in OOW spells were very marginal whicch has resulted in many not even bothering to camp.
We can not patch heal for anything worthwhile
Incapcitate bounces too often to be truly useful in places where it would be useful.

Ok so we cant be a utility class.

DPS
We have nukes that are way behind everyone else, and only usable every 30 seconds.
Dots that take 2 minutes and do pathetic overall damage and kills the beast.
A 68 pet that does the same damage as a 65 because we have no obtainable focii outside of Time.
Our weapon choices are still extremley limited, adding the 1hb and 1hp didnt really add many decent ratio weapons. 2HB sees most peoples DPS go down due to lack of AA to use it.
Without pet our DPS is behind that of everyone including a cleric pet.

Ok so we cant be a dps class.

That leaves we must be a tank class..

Looking at the OOW AA the majority are damage avoidance and mitigation, for a leather class we tank pretty well, we have all the agro generation tools you could want we have a mini defensive on a decent timer. Agro tools including dots, bouncing slows and incapacitate, who needs anything else?

So we should be looking at a significant AC boost so we can perform the role better and become the 4th best DPS tank.

Sarcasam aside, why cant we have a weapon specialism AA which means when using say HtH weapons or whichever type chosen significantly (triples) increases our DPS with the chosen weapon.
And also add a bestial frenzy IV - reduce the reuse to 7.5 mins

I personnally am not bothered by the buffing side, just make Perfection useful and increase DPS gained from weapons. Unless they are going to give a whole new line of nukes, the caster DPS side is not going to lead us anywhere as 2 x 0 = 0.

[Keryn]

I do admit I like the weapons AA, maybe an AA that we can choice for H2H or 1hb to give us a DPS upgrade.  But we do pull ALOT of aggro off Tanks. I have to cycle my attacks on Raids and in Groups depending on the Tank. In groups our DOT's are useless cause before you know it the Mob has turned cause you are way higher on the Hate list.

Tanking.......

I do get asked alot to Tank. I am 70% Ele geared and seem to be able to handel it well. But, Bst were never designed to be a tank. I like the fact that I can take hits when my slow doesn't land for 4 or 5 casts but I feel my main job is to get behind the mob and lay down some damage.

Defining our Role....

Here is where this gets tricky. I read alot of these posts here and on other forums and I notice that alot of bst perfer all the different roles. Solo, Grouping and Raiding. So no matter what is done not everyone is going to be happy. But 2 thing we can all agree on is that After POP our DPS is way behind on the curve from other Melee classes, our Pet's DPS is as far if not future down this Curve. I personally would like to see our pet get bumped up in DPS as well for us.

[Strigori]

Testian has alot of points.  However we need to have our "definition" set before focusing on any one spot too much.  Are we a dps class? a support class? more of a caster?  This needs to be set before we get too much into tweaking things.  

1) DPS class - If this is going to be the role of beastlords from here on out, then we need to have alot of things fixed to bring us up to the level that rangers, mages, necromancers and the like fall into.  If DPS is going to be the focus that SOE intends for us, then having our buff and slow lines more or less as is, is understandable.  Like testian mentioned itemazation is one way to make a big difference in this, but the largest obsticle isnt the devs making changes and deciding where, it would be from monks screaming that our weapons are better than thiers.  Logic of what our skill caps and power breakdown is more or less futile in thier unrational arguments they are known for.

2) Support - If SOE sees us as a  melee based support class, then our buff lines need a huge boost to make them actualy desirable over other classes in some places.   I have a few ideas where this is concerned and hopefully will remember to post it later.   Our slows also will need alteration if this is the path they want for us. If we are going to be support, then our slows need to be as RELIABLE as shaman or chanters.  Anywhere they can land a slow without another class' support, then we should as well.  If this the role they have in mind, then lesser dps than others is understandable.

3)  Caster based - This one is least likly road to go down.  But if this is what SOE has in mind, then our dots and nukes would require large upgrades(like making poison ones useable in a situation where we cant get agro) Like i said, this one is the least likly, and would probly generate the most noise from other classes for steping on thier toes.

This is all back to what Testian said about SOE trying to get away from "balance" and work twords "definition".  As it stands SOE apperently doesnt have an plan for what our definition is,  So as a community we need to try to  get a set direction we want our class to take.  Right now we are in limbo, and unless corrections are made, we dont apear to haeva  very bright future.

[Tastian]

Like I said this was designed for the dps issues, it's far from everything.  There will be a thread about our utility up shortly and I'm seeing how everything fits together hopefully by next monday with a new draft of the top 10 list.  

Some of these problems are just a part of EQ because pets scale poorly, dots are too much aggro, etc.  Beastlord dps though is too low at the highend I don't think many can disagree with that.  We have always been a dps with utility class.  Now we are getting out damaged by warriors in some cases.  Take a look at beastlords in the tier 1, in EPs, in time, in qvic, in tacvi and now in omens and just see how much the class has changed.  We've lost a lot of utility, we've lost a lot in terms of relative dps.  We've always had weak burst dps because of the things mentioned, but more disc, more base melee damage, and other factors have simply amplified these problems.  We need a boost to our dps in spots and we need a boost to our utility in spots as well.  There are questions of where we should fall or how we should reach those points, but there is no denying just how different our progression curve and the problems we have because of it.

[Shrouded]

Btw, the weapon specialization would not work.  To do this would make SoE have to create 2 weapons instead of one (IE an exact replica of the same weapon in both h2h and 1hb) or else each side would whine like theres no tomorrow when the other would get a better item.  Let's say the high-end bst item is h2h and you specialized in 1hb.. you would never have the same dps as a bst that specialized in h2h and you would complain non-stop.  The same goes for the vice.  Please don't even try introducing this idea and focus on something realistic.

[Grymlok]

Earlier, I had an argument with a bard about which class (bard/bst) does more melee damage, unbuffed (not uncluding pet, obviously, just the toon).  He brought up this new Bard AA Dance of Blades.  My first response was "wow".  My second was "why the hell do Bards get this?"  Something along those lines would be solid bump in the "burst" DPS department.  If I read that correctly, it appears that it essentially gives the Bard "normal" melee DPS for the duration.

Why does the best (imo) utility class in the game get a burst DPS AA out of OoW, yet we really get nothing on the burst DPS front (sorry, but to me, Roar of Thunder doesn't fit that bill)?

[Coprolith]

A bit late, but here's my take:

The scaling problem (covers sustained dps and itemization)

- If you look at weapon dps, the best tradeable weapons vs the best raid-dropped weapons have roughly a 3:5 dps-ratio.
- Spell dps. Not really sure how the difference between high end gear and 'casual' gear affects spell dps nowadays. It certainly used to be that high end players' had easier access to spell foci and that the foci themselves were better. FT is a big factor as well for a class that spends most of its time on its feet instead of sitting down to meditate. But with Tribute effects and OoW's itemization casual players may very well be catching up to the high end players, both in worn FT and focus effects (like that tradeable BST-only earring from OoW). Anyone care to make an educated guess what the spell dps ratio is between casual and high-end players? On a hunch I'd say it should be around 3:5 as well, to give pure casters and pure melee classes the same ratio, but whether or not this is the case I have no clue.
- Warder dps. Without a doubt the biggest source of the scaling problem. Pet foci started to adress this problem but they don't even come close to a solution. High end pet foci add what, like 10% more dps then a DPoC, if that? Warders are pretty much still a constant dps component regardless of the quality of gear. Its mainly because of this that casual beastlord players appear very powerful compared to other classes, a fact that beastlord haters readily exploit, while high end beastlords fall behind.

So it seems to me that the best place to start adressing this problem is with our warders. On the top of my hat i see two possible solutions:
- Make pet foci count for something. High end pet foci should give a far bigger boost to our warder's dps. A side-effect of this is that it would affect MAG and NEC pets as well, and therefore may disrupt the balance between the casters as well. I don't really know, it could be that mages and necromancers would actually find this desirable as well but then again, maybe their entire spell line up would have to be overhauled to maintain balance. This solution is certainly not as easy as its sounds as its effects are far-reaching
- Make our warder's 'inherit' our melee abilities, that is, give warders certain base abilities but if we change our own weapons our warder's dps changes with it as if he was wielding the same weapons (without actually giving the warder weapons). This would be a solution specific to our class so less side-effects, but may be very difficult to code. If you want a roleplaying justification for this behaviour you can always say that we alone share a spiritual link with our pets through which melee abilities are inherited.

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AAs:

Glad to see this is finally getting some community consideration, because the mindboggingly boredom of the AAXP grind is exactly what has caused me to quit EQ. While you're levelling, normal xp may be a lot slower but at least you've got something to look forward to, the spurts in power boosts that come with levels. But when you're done levelling, the only way to convert xp into power is thru AAs. The actual power boosts of AAs are small to begin with, but having to pay the same amount of points on skills like Combat Fury as a pure melee but for only half the benefit makes the AAXP grind twice the chore. Effectively it feels like standing still, well for me at least. The division between melee power and spell power and the devaluation of AA skills that comes with it is something every hybrid has to deal with, but for beastlords its extra painful because we have a third source of power. The cost for AAs should reflect its effect on a class-specific basis. E.g. Combat Fury and Warder's Fury together should cost the same amount of points for a beastlord as CF costs for a pure melee.

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Burst DPS:

Not really sure if i agree with you here. There's a voice inside me saying that a lack of solid burst dps is the price that should be paid for being able to solo better then most other classes. Sure it would be very welcome in raids but there's a flipside. Having solid burst dps abilities would turn beastlords into pharm machines as it also greatly increases your ability to take on named mobs solo. You really need to find a solution to separate this two effects and personally i can't think of any.

/hugs

[negrismorte]

We need DPS upgrades - across the board.

I think Coprolith had a very good idea with AA cost tuned to class.

For weapons, we already saw how much chance we have with items that "look broken" to other charaters - our epic 1.5 got the nerf bat because it looked as good as the monk's, who can do 2-3x the damage we can with the same ratio.

Those who say we are tanks are flat out wrong.  We are sponges who can hold aggro.  The data is already in that we are in fact the worst mitigating melee class there is.  How is that a tank?  The only reason we do the job is because we have no aggro reduction available and our aggro production coding is broken.  So you say, well I tank in such and such or vs such and such, but so can and other class in the equivilent gear with the same AA's.  We hold aggro .. period.

Our ability to solo is highly over rated - especially at higher levels with non-raiding gear.  Very rarely do I disagree with Coprolith, but even he has fallen victem to that perception.  I have personally witness and performed the same soloing that Nonposter mentioned - mowing through low blues only to see that almost every class with similar AA/gear can do EXACTLY the same thing.  Hell, my gimp 62 necro still in SS gear can solo faster and longer than my "solo master" ele geared beast.  I've seen enchanters/druids/mages do things I could only imagine doing.  Don't even start on bards ...

I love my beast.  This class had tremenous potential, got some tweeking, and was/is a power house in spurts to the low 60s.  The class is once again in the need of tweeking stage and that is all that's really keeping me playing (and the fact that I prepay for 3months at a time).

[Fionnah]

I think pet upgrades are high on my list.  If our pets upgraded in line with the weapons that we can expect to have when we get them.  The pet was great at level 56, 60 and even 64, but the pets have just kinda.... fallen behind.  We should have either gear that we can 'pass down' to our pet and then loot after the pet dies (or make them give back with a command).  This puts risk there if they're too far away or if they die somewhere that we can't get to.  I've got weapons that are pretty useless for me now, but for fluffy they'd be great.  Boost his hp, attack, ac, etc...

It would also deal with another issue: item deflation.  If someone is giving stuff to their pet (or saving for the pet), then it's not going to the bazaar.  This means bazaar inflation, since there are 3 'real' pet classes and we're all seeing the same problem to some extent.  So I have to spend plat on my pet's gear... it's better than losing power because my pet was built for a level 64 with 12 AAs in PoValor instead of a 68 with 170AAs in Muramite Proving Grounds.

[Tastian]

I always thought our pets should take on our atk or maybe our new melee focus effects.  Pets already take the saves of owner it seemed reasonable to me that our pets would gain from some of the upgrades we get since monks and warriors and just about every other class gains overall from certain upgrades.

The thing about burst dps is everyone can burst dps, but it's a question of degree.  I've had shaman out dps my bst on assorted boss mobs.  Every class with a mana bar (except rangers really) can burst.  Even pallys can "burst" for a reasonable % boost againist undead by simply using a disc.  Here is what really bothers me, I know a boss mob is coming up and here is what I fire off to "burst" with...

2 base nukes loaded, maybe a third
1 dot loaded (if I can stick early with disease to open, can't use poison I die)
Frenzy of spirit
Bestial fury
Bestial alignment
Epic 1.5 clicky

I use up 3-4 spell slots, a luclin AA, a GoD AA at rank 3, a level 60 disc, the click off epic 1.5 and I still usually fail to burst for a % gain that a level 60 monk clicking inner flame or a rogue dropping duelist can do.  I'm not asking to burst for more, I'm not asking to do more relative dps in "burst" mode than these other classes, but when you see a generic bazaar geared wizard who's gear/aa/FT allows them to sustain in the 200dps range bump it up and burn down at about 600dps a shot, you see rogues spiking into the 500-700 range and meanwhile with better or similiar gear using an assortment of spells, AA, items I'm "bursting" for about 50% more damage than I sustain is just nuts imo.  Having our disc/BA also raise our pet damage or possible our pet/nuke damage would help a lot.  Our nukes would still have the big recast time, our dots would still suck @$$ overall, but atleast we could be closer "burst" wise without jumping through hoops and spending 20+ AA.  Back during luclin this was less of an issue because fights went a long time and getting to burn our mana bar during the fight gave us a small "sustained burst" that kinda compenstated.  With a lot of the fights now and even single group named in spots like KT and PG where you want it dead ASAP though we just fall short.

[Coprolith]

One thing i think of to increase raid utility and burst dps without totally f-ing up the balance at the low end of the spectrum or in solo situations is introducing raid-specific spells. Seems to me that if its possible to make spells that can only be cast outdoors or during nighttime it should be possible to make spells and disciplines that can only be cast if you're in a raid. Make 'em raid drops (NO DROP of course) and the separation between high-end and casual players is complete.
Alternatively the raid and group xp can be changed and expanded so that everyone in the raid/group gets the xp and not just the leader. They can then use that xp to obtain new individual AA skills (but still only usable in group/raid) instead of the group/raid-wide benefits you get now. More power for the raiders, non for the solo'ers.

Oh well, just some ideas anyways.

/higs

[Strigori]

I dont see the raid-useable-skills as something that would fly.  As much as i like the idea, the non-raiding people would scream louder than they do now about locked zones and loot.    The biggest issue really is that durring the sub-65 area of the game, we are very well balanced.  Its once we cross 65, or start into the raiding portion of the game, we start to rapidly fall behind.   Durring the  grind to 60 especially, making fundemental changes to the class would result in a more "overpowered" appearence to others.  This more or less restricts the changes to spells and AA modifacations.  

In my earlier post I was in no way agruing that we didnt need dps boost, but to how much a  boost we need.