Current Top 10 list(7-4-05)

[Tastian]

Happy whatever it is to whoever celebrates it.  There are a few tweaks to the list here mostly in the 1st issue.  The list keeps changing so continued feedback is welcomed.  As always please remember that the list isn't everything.

1)   DPS

You know we have issues with it and we know you are working on it.  This is just here as a little reminder in case either side forgets.   

While looking at dps though please keep burst dps in mind as well as sustained dps.  At the heart of almost all beastlord issues is our division of power and burst dps is no different.  Most classes can use a disc to drastically raise their dps or mana dump beastlords can do neither.  Our nukes are tied to a 30 second refresh; our disc only raises our melee dps which is about 1/3rd of our total dps.

Possible solutions:  There are actually a lot of ways to go about fixing our dps, but we have to be careful that in fixing our dps we do not create even more problems. 

-  Adjust some of our current AAs.  Right now beastlords have a ton of AAs that give very small returns.  Some of our class AAs such as feral swipe and bestial alignment give extremely small boosts and have other issues.  Tweaking these AAs so they actually better fit beastlords and give more of a return could help.

-  Itemization also plays a big part in how a beastlord performs.  We see beastlords having to gain a lot of different effects and focuses and some simply aren't there or are too rare.  There are some beastlords in angiush still wearing time loot just for a certain focus effect.  Also when it comes to weapons please understand how a beastlord works and give us some other options.  The beastlord only 2h from MPG trials is a great example of a weapon that just doesn't fit beastlords.  Lots of classes look at the weapon and think how great it is, but most beastlords realize that it isn't even an upgrade for them.  Again we are not asking for "better" items, but rather better "beastlord items".

-  Finally, please keep in mind just how much time/effort a beastlord has to put into the game to reach their max potential.  A beastlord needs more items/effects and more AA than almost everyone to reach their potential on dps.  There are several passive changes that could easily be made at this point that would help with our dps issues.  Please do not try to solve this issue by having us grind out another 200AA or raid/farm another half dozen items.   Time/effort verse reward is a huge beastlord issue already and we'd hate to see a fix to something like our dps just make it worse.


2)  Ferocity of Irionu

To put it simply this is an extremely weak "upgrade" to one of the only class things a beastlord has.  The line went:

Level 60 -  +25 sta, +100 atk, +50 resist all for 450 mana
Level 65 -  +40 sta, +150 atk, +65 resist all for 600 mana
Level 70 -  +52 sta, +187 atk, +65 resist all for 750 mana

Also going from the 60 to the 65 version we lost the peridot requirement and the refresh went down from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.

The line clearly was designed as a mana intensive buff that granted both a defensive boost (hps via stamina and resists) and an offensive boost (via the large amount of raw attack).  However, the level 70 version falls very short.  The extra 12 stamina does absolutely nothing in most cases as people are stamina capped.  The resists didn't move at all.  That leaves us with an upgrade that costs 150 more mana to grant an extra 37 atk for a 6.5 minutes base duration.

Possible solutions:  Add some effects to the buff to help make the buff useful and desired again.  An effect to increase proc rate is one of the most popular choices as this would again make the buff desirable to both tanks (more agro procs) and dps (more damage procs).  There are lots of possibilities though and we welcome the chance to discuss and test possible adjustments to this spell.

3)  Spell Casting Reinforcement Mastery

Beastlords were a buffing class from the day they went live.  Hmmmm...ok not the day we went live, but after the first couple rounds of fixes lol.  Fact is beastlords overall have a very large number of buffs:  stats, regen, haste, etc.  Even though overall our buffing has fallen off some in the past few years we still have several buffs that we cast and this AA seems like a very obvious choice for us.  Many wondered why we didn't get it back in luclin as part of our class AAs when others who buffed way less got it.  It just makes sense for our class and is long overdue in many beastlords' eyes.

Possible solutions:  Grant us access to this AA.  Most would like to see this added in our class tab, but even as part of the next expansion if we have to wait a bit longer.


4)  AA cost/benefit

This is a large issue that pretty much goes back to our division of power.  Although this isn't just a beastlord issue it does seem to hit beastlords the hardest of all.

For AAs we see beastlords paying just as much for an AA that gives us a much smaller return for the AAs than other classes that can buy it.  For example we see beastlords paying the same number of AA for crit nukes that wizards do, then paying just as much for crit dots as necros and shaman do and finally shelling out just as many AA as monks and rogues do for melee crits.

Please understand that we aren't asking to nuke like wizards or dot like necros.  What we are saying though is don't make us pay for what we aren't getting.  This situation reminds me a lot of the old hybrid exp penalty.  If we are getting 1/3rd or less in some cases from these AAs as others then please don't make us pay as much for them.

I know some will say "not every AA can be great" or something to that effect.  The bottom line though is that in many cases we simply don't have another choice.  Beastlords have very few class only AAs and many of them (i.e. feral swipe, see below) are very poor.

Possible solutions:  Add some combination AAs that reflect our division of power.  These AAs could help our melee and our pet dps, help our nuking and our healing, or any number of other options.  Also consider cheaper versions of some AAs to reflect our lower return on them.  Theft of life verse healing gift is a good example of this.


5)  Gear options

This is actually a two fold issue.  First is the issue that we are very limited in some options such as healing focus, beneficial spell haste, and several other effects.  Also, similar to the issue to #4 beastlords get a smaller return on most items than any other class and we also have more items that we have to acquire in order to achieve our full potential.  Again this isn't just a beastlord issue as some other classes can relate I'm sure, but this is the beastlord top 10.  8P

As an example lets say a beastlord wants to progress their dps.  First they have to get their melee effects such as a haste item, worn atk, some accuracy, a couple good weapons, a cleave item, etc.  Then they have to get some items to help their casting side of dps.  This means grabbing nuke focus, dot focus, mana pres, and some flowing thought.  Also we can't forget our warders so top it all off with a pet focus item.

None of that touches on the other aspects of being a beastlord such as tanking, healing, or buffing.  Simply put for a beastlord to progress by a certain amount they need to get far more items than others do.  Like with issue 4 we aren't asking for more than any other class we simply ask that we stop having to work twice as hard to get half as much.

Possible solutions:  Add focus effects that touch on multiple parts of what a beastlord does.  This is similar to the AAs mentioned above, but give us some focus effects that help our nukes and our heals.  Perhaps add some focus effects that boost our nuke and dot dps.   

Also please look at focus effect itemization, especially at the high-end.  Currently beastlords have a very hard time getting beneficial spell haste, and healing focus.  Meanwhile, there are over a dozen items that have +cold dmg or +fire dmg on them.

Finally, and most importantly when making beastlord items please remember the class they are for.  There are a lot of items that would be totally over the top on some classes that a beastlord wouldn't even wear or consider an upgrade.  The 2h blunt from MPG trials is a great example of an item lots of people think is great for beastlords, but most beastlords at that point in progression would lose dps by equipping.


6)  Feral swipe

I think the biggest problem people have with this AA is how much potential it has.  This is one of a limited number of beastlord only AAs, but it unfortunately has so many issues that many beastlords either haven't bought it or don't use it; even after reaching 700+ AA in some cases.

Possible solutions:  Please increase the range on the AA first and foremost.  There are numerous times where you will be melee'n a mob and trying to avoid AE ramp, but still be out of feral swipes range.  Also please look into the damage/refresh/uhhh everything on this AA lol.  Right now this AA does less damage over time than kick does.  This is one of our few class only AAs and it currently is quite poor in terms of AA spent to dps gained.  We have lots of ideas for changes to this AA and again welcome any chance to discuss/test/tune this AA further.


7)  Dots

Dots for beastlords are another one of those things that look ok on paper, but in actual application don't quite measure up.  There are several issues that really lower the viability of our dots.  One of the biggest issues is the lack of a resist mod on them.  SK, rng, nec, dru, etc all have resist mods built into their dots.  Most beastlords think that our dots don't have a resist mod because they are balanced like shaman dots.  Shaman though have a big resist debuff that can always be used to help them better land their dots.

The second issue with dots is that focus effects and AA for dots skews the numbers more than many seem to realize.  There are over a dozen items with +cold focus damage on them, but almost no items that give beastlords a similar boost to their poi/dis dot damage.  Also with how AAs are set up beastlords will get SCF to help their nukes long before they get crit affliction to help their dots.  I know many beastlords that even at around 500 AA still don't have crit affliction.   

With all of these factors added up suddenly that extra efficiency that dots have on paper quickly dwindles away.  The recent changes to dots went a long way toward making them more useable and for many classes the changes were sufficient, but in order for many beastlords to give a spell slot to these spells some other tweaks need to be made.

Possibly solutions:  Add a resist mod to our dots.  They are on most of the other dots in the game and it just seems like they are MIA on the beastlord dots.  If there is a balance or tuning reason why beastlords should have a much harder time landing a dot than an SK or a rng or various other classes then please let us know as we simply don't understand and again welcome the communication.

Also please look at how focus effects and AA impact dots for us.  This was partially covered by a couple of the other issues on the list, but the almost total lack of dot focus effects for beastlords and the extremely high cost of our dot crit AA really hinder the current viability of dots in a beastlord's spell lineup.  Making it so that some of our existing effects (such as the focus on the 1.5/2.0 epics) increase not only our nuke dmg, but also our dot dmg would help a lot.


  AE rampage

This gets brought up quite a bit, but one of the biggest issues with pet survivability on raids in AE rampage.  We understand that you don't want having a pet to be mindless, but AE ramp is a bit much in some cases.  Having trash mobs do it in some places is a real pain(no pun intended).  Also you have to understand what our options are.  At the summit we were told that you would look into which models AE ramp so we'd have some warning and could "hold our pets back".  That makes sense for a mage or necro who's standing back and blasting the mob, but what about the beastlord who is up there melee'n the mob?  I mean by not having our pets attacking we are already losing dps; we can't be expected to not melee the mob at all and just drop nukes right?

Also understand that people are losing pets even when paying attention and doing what they can.  There are times where you have your pet set up right and they are pounding away outside AE ramp range, but they keep trying to sneak up because of how pet coding is.  I don't know how many times (going back to earth B warlord) I've been doing good, doing good, poof there goes fluffy.

Things like pets putting themselves into AE ramp without us having time to fix it, pets pathing so poorly that they run into AE ramp sometimes while positioning them, pets being slow to move and respond so even when we back them off and try to make them run and hide they still buy it, etc all make it very difficult for a beastlord to keep their pets up in many cases even when they are paying attention and doing what they should.

Possible solutions:  Make pets immune to AE rampage.  I know some will think this is a bit extreme, but with all the issues stacked against pet control and avoiding/surviving AE rampage this seems to be the easiest solution.

If making pets immune is just too much then please put a check so that if the pet isn't on top of the hate list then the damage they take from AE rampage is greatly lowered.


9)  Pet buff control

The ability to now see pet buff timers is a nice change, but pet classes are still wondering if changes will be made that allow us to manage our pet's buffs like we do our own. There are many stacking issues, ninja buffing happens and especially with pet affinity it's very common to have a buff on your pet that you don't want for whatever reason.

Proposed solution:  Please allow us to selectively remove buffs from our pets.


10)  Raid utility

I don't like how this sounds, but I honestly don't know another way to say it.  What exactly is the point of a beastlord past the first on a raid currently?  We don't expect raids to need as many beastlords as clerics, or be as desired as rogues.  One beastlord can SA a whole raid, perfection does far, far less now than paragon did then, slow clickies and better slow spells are all over, level 70 fero is a top 10 issue, etc.

Possible solutions:  Please reconsider perfection of spirit.  We understand that you have to keep mana regen in line for various tuning reasons, but perfection of spirit isn't just a HoT to us, but rather the main thing we brought to raids.

Please look at ferocity of irionu.  Yes it is already on the list, but I can go weeks without getting a request for the buff anymore.  The spell should be something that people want and that multiple beastlords are able to do thus allowing us to stack better at a raid.

Content is another issue that can impact a beastlords utility on a raid.  In plane of time for instance when groups got split up people that are second and third best at various things got a chance to step up and use those abilities.  In a time trial being a "jack of all trades" was actually useful at times as you could off tank a mob, re-haste a raider that died, possibly be the main slower for that trial, etc.  When you have a raid of 54(ish) people together though and several of the best class at something then classes that are second and third best simply don't get to use their skills.  Not every raid/zone can involve splitting up, but there are many other ways to actually allow classes to use some of their skills that they don't usually get to and thus take the focus off of max dps.

[bham]

Can we fit group buffs back in there somewhere.

Other than that it looks spot on.

[Tastian]

Group buffs/utility will be there, but it kinda depends what happens with this list.  There are a few issues that in theory should be very quick yes/no/x/y type of issues.  I'd hope that we get a couple specific answers that opens up a few spots for more specific questions such as group haste or group infusion upgrade and things like that.  I'd like to see our list change and update fairly often with rotating issues instead of staying the exact same with several large issues for months like it did before this.  With an expansion on the way it's possible some of the issues will hopefully be addressed that way as well. 

[hakaaba]

pets are already immune to riposte (with the obvious exception of during rage) so there is even precident for making them at least partially protected from ae page -- might be worth mentioning.

Depending on exactly what changes they have in mind to pet focuses, that could affect what we need on the list.  Wish they went live so we know what theyre talking about exactly.

Anyway, we could throw decreased nuke recast times in there as a possiblity as well.  I know they had reduced them for awhile already on test so they might be willing to make that change to improve overall dps as well as *slightly* improve relatively long term burst dps.  Atm clerics nuke better than us hehe

Otherwise it looks great :)

[Oiingo]

Did more multiclass parsing last night in Anguish and once again, our three beastlords (me with Fangs/CHS, another with Anguish mace and Demarix, third with Zum's scepter and Anguish mace), and while we were all around the same spot, our lack of raw damage was readily apparent.

Perhaps this time around, just make the entire Top 10 list, ``DPS,'' and see if the developers notice.

For what it's worth, how about an innate pet proc relative to weapon ratios?  If I have a 29.5/19, then hook me up with an improved version of the SPF proc.  Now that's beastly.

[hakaaba]

Well DPS appeares in it 23 times so thats not bad :)

[Gragamale]

Here is my suggestion for the problem of pet survivability on raids.


I would like to see an ability of having my pet stay at my side.  Perhaps when you hit the pet guard me your pet stays at your side at all times. If I move left kitty will move right there, if I move back so does kitty.  It could also be an AA ability on it's on or tied into pet hold, where the pet will only attack when its owner is attacking.

This could help with a few problems. The pet could be positioned easily and controlled to avoid AE rampage and push. To me this could be a beast only ability showing our close tie and kinship with our pets.

[hakaaba]

Isnt our pet already supposed to do that? I never understood why we need to pay aas for things our pet should be doing already but werent for various programming reasons (probably)

[Strigori]

I Dont think the devs have a  clear idea what to do with us.  Sadly, its probly going to be more about politics between classes than what is best for each class.  The "sqeeky wheel gets the grease" thing and all, and there just arnt enough of us(and we dont make cases like that anyway) to get the volume of responses monks mages and shaman produce.  And sadly those classes seem to have a mindset that any increase to others(us in peticular) is an attack on them. 

I would love pets to become immune to AE rampage, but my gut tells me they wont allow that as it would(in thier minds) "make encounters too easy".

[hakaaba]

CAn we add something about not lying to us in the patch messages? lol upgrading 68 pets is fine if they wanna do that but omg do somethign to the 70 pets too! :p

[Dakat]

They will probably make suttle changes to us as to not draw to much attention to us from other classes about being overpowering. Which in my opinion we are if you consider our soloability comparitive to other classes.

[hakaaba]

well yeah but were *supposed* to be able to solo heh

[Nasham]

I think that, while having different AA to train to be efficient such as heals, dots,spell crits and melee crits, this simply makes us more versatile than other classes, but I agree that the overall cost is a bit painfull. 20% more heal to a cleric that does 7500 for 400 mana is more effective than us with our 1185 heal, same thing for 30 sec recast nukes and critical affliction for dots that are resisted too often.
As for DPS on raids,well I think and even propose that Sony makes an "absorb warder" AA or spell (yeah another AA) that changes your currrent pet and makes it an overall buff (dps/hp/stats/mana,depending on class) so we can gain DPS accordingly to the loss of our pet, this would solve the poor pathing of pets on AE rampage mobs and certain raid events at the least.
But again, maybe this is just wishfull thinking.

[Saniiro]

I would be happy if we once again had a class defining thing that made us wanted for raids, I can mgb perfection, and raid doesn't even notice it.  Something like a group growl of the panther to help with tanks hp, or a group ferocity with improved resists, or an upgrade to perfection where it is noticeable again would just be /droolage.

[hakaaba]

mass perfection is still at least slightly useful imo.  But hardly class defining anymore and really only the clerics care and only sometimes lol