I've asked Chanaluss to bring the below quoted material before the developers. It's my attempt, feel free to make your own.
I don't want to go another expansion broken, especially when the next might be the last.
QuoteCurrent state of the Beastlord:
Note: This is about fixing beastlords, not just things we'd generally like to see in the next expansion. A couple high points there though: Imbued Ferocity, upgrade Frenzy of Spirits to be useful, attack command for swarm pets (like every other class who gets them), combination of some abilitities (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8754.0), new pet models (use existing ones even...DoD cat model, etc), track would be nice in some form, etc.
We are a pointless class in the higher end game. Poor burn dps, mostly useless buffs (SE line being useful but not necessary for anything), and poor debuffing ability. Good sustained dps makes use useful in a group scenario, but the other problems all still hold. Poor damage taking ability, useless healing, and very little utility. Many guilds make no use of Focused Paragon or group Paragon AAs, since their high guild dps renders them unnecessary. One top tier guild even has no beastlords on their roster, and isn't missing them.
Many high end beasts have mainchanged, even from top end guilds lately. Many have retired. I also don't think I've seen a class that is so poorly represented among alternate characters.
I've discussed problems with our current spell line-up here: http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8747.msg93217#msg93217 and the entire thread http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8747.0 and http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8722.0 deal with spell issues. Our pets have improved somewhat defensively last expansion, but their dps is still far lower than is reasonable. Our pet's melee dps now is lower than a Shadowknights, even with AAs and pet focus. They are only 10-15% of non-burn dps for a higher end grouper.
So...what would help?
More utility and more dps, or more dps.
DPS version - Almost every class that out-dpses us has higher demand utility, so our current utility is not a viable reason to not upgrade our dps. Monks have better CC, tanking, and can pull. Rangers can tank, CC, pull, cure better, weaponshield, ranged dps. Rogues can pull and can use poisons to accomplish many niche tricks (and still tank better from what I've seen in my guild). Slow is an invalid reason to stagnate our dps - this isn't PoP.
If our utility does not get upgraded in any substantial fashion with House of Thule, our dps needs to be substantially boosted. We should *significantly* out-dps monks and rangers in every normal burn and sustained situation. We should be very close behind rogues. The only situation that we should be out-dpsed by a ranger is when we are forced to play ranged dps.
I don't think any of use care where these numbers come from. Melee, spell, or solid pet would work. But, they *need* to happen. See http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8750.0 for burst dps ideas (though these focus on AAs only)
Utility version - Our utility right now is very poor. We can't offtank or CC at all (not even effectively with pets). Our paragon, though upgraded, is not used by many in the raiding game due to lack of need (focused paragon upgrades are at 6mana/tick now anyways, which is miserable). Two of our three main buffs are only taken when nobody else is around. Our third is one which, while nice, has never been missed. Slow mitigation and mercenaries have rendered slow unnecessary, and our small attack debuff is from an AA which cannot be kept on a mob consistently (Raven's Claw AA). Our cripple line spell is a level 41 shaman spell. Our attributed dps has fallen regularly - Ferocity spell is useless, and has been for at least the last six expansions. Our group-dps AA was detuned several times during betas and rests at 30% melee dps boost. This is hugely less useful than the version which rangers got at the time (Group Guardian of the Wolf - attack increase, 26% melee boost and 15% overhaste, medium HoT), and is often simply useless due to conflicts with other classes disciplines.
Utility upgrades:
Offtanking/CC - Make a new basilisk swarm pet spell which pops the pet in the direction we're facing but 20' away. The spell should require a mob to be targetted, and the basilisk would summon that mob to it and hold it stunned for some time (alternately, basilisk has huge HPs/mitigation so it can OT the mob w/o heals for 90 seconds or so). Alternately, this would be a proc on our pet (10000% proc rate) which would glue the mob to it's side like the enchanter spell Compliant Lurch, and we can then reposition our pet using our Companion's Relocation AA. This would need to result in similarly large mitigation so constant healing isn't needed for our pets. This needs to be able to be used regularly, and not hampered by a long recast timer.
Buffing - http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8747.msg93217#msg93217 has a few ideas for what to do with our buffs, or at least specific problems we have with them.
*Suggestion: make our spiritual HP line (doesn't stack w/ Brell's or ranger STR line) have a beneficial effect for spell casting. This will carve out a niche for it, and make it useful for at least some classes.
*Suggestion - fix group haste in a way that's acceptable to the class, preferably by implementing http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=9018&source=Live
Debuffing - You have been very resistant to giving us any debuffs to help our slows land, faster re-casting slows, or slows with better resist checks and/or duration. We also have not received any of the slow-type upgrades which shammies have (AA cast, Lassitude line of defensive proc, etc), or any of the things which enc have to help it (stuns, tash). Our pet-cast slow helps to relieve a couple issues, but doesn't go very far. Slow mitigation combined with mercenaries have rendered slow a very small part of the game now. So, we need a debuffing boost. I'd love to see an attack debuff line of at least 250 or 300 attack (larger than Hand of Ro and current ice debuff line from druids combined). Alternately, Beastlords should be the kings of cripples, and receive a cripple line which makes a very significant dent in mob dps...at least triple the strength of Fragmented Consciousness (enc cripple), and possibly even stronger, depending on actual results. This should be on a poison or disease resist with a decent lure component (and one we can improve via our Focus of Animus AA line).
Attributable DPS - if we don't have the dps ourselves, we should have our attributable dps role returned to us. Group Bestial alignment should work in a fashion which stacks with primary dps disciplines for melee classes, and which complements current (bard, ranger, zerker, shaman) melee boosters. I think Skill Damage Amount (xx) ability would work nicely as an upgrade to it, and allow for easy tuning by developers. Alternately, GBA should be changed to a large spell damage discipline which we can put on a caster dps group (needs to be targettable to them, otherwise we need more dps boosts to supplement for our not having a chance at melee dps groups ever again). Ferocity needs to be fixed - there's a thread that has started http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8760.0
Healing - Our heals suck nowadays. we should be given the Imbued Ferocity AA to help with self healing as a burst self-healing ability. We also need some form of improved heal for this portion of our utility to have any meaning.
Something new - without superseding another classes utility role, I don't think there is a compelling niche which beastlords can move into in Everquest. So, one would need to be made, as the above probably still won't make people want a beastlord. I don't have any ideas on this yet which wouldn't fall under the role of expansion gimmick, but will provide some as I am able.
Thank you for reading this. Please enterntain these suggestions. Even though they are a large jump from the current state of beastlords, they are all reasonable and thought out. Beastlords are simply in need of a massive revamp now.
If you wish to discuss anything, you can get ahold of me in-game on Luclin.Khauruk, at beastlords.org forums (username Khauruk).
Good luck and thanks for your efforts.
Quoteattack command for swarm pets (like every other class who gets them)
:?
Not sure what you mean with that? Swarm pet AA?
primary intent is for our Yowl Pet, but swarms would be nice also. Right now we cannot redirect their attack if their target is mezzed, or they die. I think every beast and mage would love to have that ability, and we have been asking devs to code it for a while.
Khauruk, to fix our tanking (IMO), see if they won't return beastlords to the AC table of monks/rangers. There really isn't any reason for us to be on te rogue/berserker table since we aren't a pure dps class. That would "fix" our offtanking and seems like it'd be a pretty easy change to implement.
GL and i REALLY hope something comes of it, itd be nice to be the class we should be for a change :)
Good job Khauruk, I do hope the devs will take notice, we so need a bif revamp now. Reading the class description at login is just so far away from where we are now its a joke.
I'm at my end. If this doesn't work then I'll more than likely mainchange to my shaman. Lately I've been playing my shaman more than my bst. on that note I've been windowing to my shaman to debuff and heal and simply been leaving my bst on auto-attack. Once he gets a few more aa he'll probably end up dps-ing as well.
Pets: My pet only lives because I control her so well. hp, defensives, attack, and so forth... all suck.
Spells: buffs are a joke, dps spells are below par, debuffs... why bother?
Utility: I used to be an avid paragon user, now it barely helps with current content. I still use it on raids to help get casters back in the raid after a rez. rarely.
DPS: I recently had been parsed on a raid fight and even with everything mashed and kept mashed... I only parsed at just below 3k. (my hands hurt so bad after that... i had to take a 5 min break and give them a good rubbing)
I hope you can get us seriously fixed. I don't want to mainchange and start all over again with a new class (ok not so new). Fortunately with the groups and guilds I play with, I'm considered dps mainly and I can hold my own. So DPS role is fine with me but I would like to see us get better utility. I used to see myself more as a utility bst than anything. But that was years ago.
I'm hoping that somebody wants to trade me a ranger or enchanter for by bst or sk, honestly, or that I can find one cheap (I don't have enough time really to get one up where I want it). Barring that, I am slowly levelling/AAing a ranger which I hope will be decent enough to raid w/ by the time beta starts, and I'll switch based upon what I see in beta (or not). Pretty sad, but /shrug.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 04, 2010, 03:53:47 PM
I'm hoping that somebody wants to trade me a ranger or enchanter for by bst or sk, honestly, or that I can find one cheap (I don't have enough time really to get one up where I want it). Barring that, I am slowly levelling/AAing a ranger which I hope will be decent enough to raid w/ by the time beta starts, and I'll switch based upon what I see in beta (or not). Pretty sad, but /shrug.
Luckily I kept my original main (warrior) at max level through the years so all I had to do was add gear and aa's when I made the switch. I keep hoping they revive bst, if they do I'll make the switch back again.
Thanks for going to bat for us Khauruk! I have been pretty miserable in UF with the current state of the bst class. If the HoT expansion doesn't boost us in any direction ( I could care less if we focus on dps or utility) as long as we get a significant boost and become a valuable class again in both the group and raid game.
Working on a wizard and a rogue atm to see what one I like best when the time comes.
Hopefully it wont.
I support you on your crusade Khauruk. If there's anything I can do to help let me know. I parse literally EVERYTHING, and if it's for the good of the class I'm more than willing to share anything you need from the high end.
Are you guys not the only beastlords in your guilds or something? I have been for the entire year, I don't see a main change being viable for a while haha.
I am pretty much the only bst in my guild currently. Some play them as alts but no one is a bst main. Same goes for my last guild too. I think it's been that way since before SoF.
Quote from: Hamtarro on June 04, 2010, 09:46:42 PM
Are you guys not the only beastlords in your guilds or something? I have been for the entire year, I don't see a main change being viable for a while haha.
I was pretty much the only beastlord in my guild from about GoD onwards except for as few short periods. Now there are 3 of us in my new guild and we look like picking up a fourth with the server transfer merges.
Seriously even if I was the only one I doubt I would be missed if I changed classes, what do we bring to the table for raiding?
Well....we bring mediocre dps, poorly stacking burn dps (GBA), unwanted utility, un-needed buffs and half our spells are for keeping our low dps pet alive...
On the plus note, we piss off monks by stealing HtH weapons to make poor dps with it :evil:
The one actual use we have in Underfoot raids, I guess is our warders hobble of spirits, for agro kiting unsnareable mobs.
That's just one event tho? Even that's not a must either....can manage without bsts too.
Damn...that sounded sad lol
Quote from: Sikkem on June 05, 2010, 04:32:08 AM
what do we bring to the table for raiding?
Really sad trying to think about something that I bring to the raid :-(
Only BST in my guild and have been for a long time -- and sadly I have been playing less and less. Good luck with this and great job.
Quote from: Zunar on June 05, 2010, 09:05:31 AM
The one actual use we have in Underfoot raids, I guess is our warders hobble of spirits, for agro kiting unsnareable mobs.
Don't mention tha to loud or it'll get nerfed next >.<
Quote from: bradam on June 05, 2010, 02:40:17 PM
Quote from: Zunar on June 05, 2010, 09:05:31 AM
The one actual use we have in Underfoot raids, I guess is our warders hobble of spirits, for agro kiting unsnareable mobs.
Don't mention tha to loud or it'll get nerfed next >.<
Rangers mention it enough for us now :D
Quote from: Khauruk on June 03, 2010, 11:41:48 PM
If our utility does not get upgraded in any substantial fashion with House of Thule, our dps needs to be substantially boosted. We should *significantly* out-dps monks and rangers in every normal burn and sustained situation. We should be very close behind rogues. The only situation that we should be out-dpsed by a ranger is when we are forced to play ranged dps.
I sent a PM to CHanaluss with a response/defense of the quote section.
This statement is sure to be met with an outcry of distaste from Rangers and Monks but I'm fully behind you.
Multi-faceted Damage dealers
Our dps is more multi-faceted than either of the other two classes (pets, melee, and spells) and because of this fact we are often partially inhibited in many "real world" factors that don't exist on the test dummies. Increased resistance or mitigation to a particular spell resist or weapon type will decrease the damage of each of us, so those factors we can consider a wash that hurts all 3 classes the same. However, because a substantial (relatively) portion of beastlord dps comes from pets our damage lowered for additional reasons.
Pathing - bad pathing is something so ingrained in this game we've all accepted that it will never go away. It is all too common, sadly, to be fighting a mob and after hitting /pet attack to see my warder running around in the back ground on top of a cliff. DPS lost due to bad warder/swarm pet pathing en route to an enemy is lost dps rangers/monks don't have to ever worry about.
Pets have HP - Pets can die. We have a multitude of abilities to increase the survivability and to heal our warders. Many of these abilities have cast times and/or the requirement of switching target to the warder which both take away from damage done. Swarm pets are also susceptible to AEs/rampage damage and have the potential to die in harsh environments due to lack of buffs/heals.
/Pet attack - Khauruk mentioned this in his post as well, but I want to comment also. We cannot control our swarm pets once they're out. If a mob gets mezzed it stops attacking, if the mob dies or we want to switch targets we can't make it switch with us.
AE What?In additional to being hampered in many situations due to our pets we also completely lack any ability to AE, damage or nondamage. In situations with lots of mobs in camp we're limited to just our standard attacks against one target while Rangers and Monks can damage multiple targets at once with Storm of Arrows and Destructive Force in addition to their normal damage.
In ConclusionI want to reiterate Khauruk in saying that if beastlord utility remains in its current state our dps should have a substantial advantage over rangers and monks. With the added dependency on pets for dps we also gain an increased number of factors to potential lower our dps from the idealized test value (pathing, pet deaths, inability to control swarm pets). We also lack any form of AE so when dealing with multiple mobs we're resigned to fighting them off one at a time. For these reasons beastlords should have a significant advantage over monks and rangers in idealized parses against test dummies, because in live events we fall off of these idealized parses for a much greater number of reasons.
already sent those 2 PMs in, thanks for sending them
i should probably introduce myself to those who dont know me.
i am Chana, and im one of the EQ Community Leaders, so if you have any requests, send me a PM here, on evilgamer.net, or on the eqlive boards and ill do my best to send them upwards to the devs. also, im available in-game as povar.chanaluss or povar.lonhouilden.
a little background. my main has been a shadowknight since 2001, but my real passion of late has been my barbarian beastlord Lonhouilden (race changed to troll if they get rid of the basilisk in the future). Im probably still really crappy, but i enjoy the class.
i know im no substitute for a CL that actually mains beastlord and would know more than i would, but i hope that i can help as much as i can in the meantime.
I made this up and sent it along to Chana in an effort to be a bit more comprehensive. I'm also trying to keep the tone nicer, since we're starting to sound like assholes on many forums (Tulisin is not the droid you are looking for).
QuoteDevelopers,
Thank you for recognizing the "dire straits" that the beastlord class is in right now, and having some apparent willingness to fix it. I recognize the fine line that needs to be tread in regards to how a boost in dps for raids can overpower us ridiculously in the group game (well, until we take a hit), and making our utility powerful enough for raid desirability could also overpower us in the group game. I also know that we've gotten pretty bitchy lately, so please bear with the expressions of long term dissappointment that many of us have felt. Third, we're also a somewhat split class atm, so you are hearing many different desires which may easily conflict. One thing that I have found in talking w/ many beastlords though (I am the de facto admin for forums.beastlords.org, always in serverwide bst channel, etc) is that if our utility is useful enough to make us desireable in raids and groups, we'd be fairly happy. If our dps is high enough to be desireable in raids and groups, we'd be fairly happy. One of the two needs to happen, or at least a mix w/ more dps and more utility.
Main problems:
[Note, data for these propositions, and more details are below the narrative. I'm very sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to be pretty comprehensive!]
We're a slowing class with limited ability. We have no ability to slow multiple mobs in a reasonable timeframe (vs. sham AE slows, listlessness), or otherwise control a mob while trying get it slowed (enc mez, root, stuns, 10,000 bard tricks). We also have no way to debuff a mob's resistances so we can land it on resistant mobs. Our upgrades have been an unsatisfying pet-proc-based slow line which is rarely used except on old raid mobs. I propose some solutions below.
Too much button pushing - Beastlords currently need to push more buttons than any other class to max our dps. We know you're looking at consolidating some AA lines, but our spell lines need looking at as well. I've detailed this already in a msg to Aristo (via Chana) already though, so I won't dwell on it here.
Our buffs seem to have fallen by the wayside, outside of SE, and it's easy to bring a box in to rebuff that, or have people use spirituality potions. I propose (below) a new niche for our Spiritual HP line (brell's/STR variant), which is needed since as the middle-ground between dps and HPs, it is never wanted. I also propose a boost for our stagnated Focus line which, while not providing a new niche, at least makes it a much more palateable buff.
Ferocity - I don't need to go into how broken this spell is. Propositions for potential fixes below.
CC - we formerly had an ability to provide some minor CC via our pets. This has gone by the wayside, but is very much needed (it would help greatly with the slowing issue, for one!). I propose a "Bestial Lurch" spell below which would regain that ability without giving us an extremely overpowered pet, root, etc.
Cast Times - the longer cast times on some of our combat spells are making them start to show their age quickly. The big culprit is Yowl at the Moon and Heaergen's Feralgia - we're at a point where we lose dps to cast them while burning at the higher end raid level.
Heals - please reduce cast timer, triple heal size, and triple recast timer at a minimum. We don't want to be a main healer, or anything near, but our abilities have far from scaled w/ mob dps.
Something fun - very little has changed for BST gameplay in years. Some new paradigm would be very well accepted, but I'm not creative enough to come up with one :(. Rangers have had pulling methods changed giving new playstyles, same for SKs w/ hate step/HA/DE/etc, same for enc w/ recent spells, etc. Please show us some love with new mechanics and "interesting" but ultimately very useful spells/abilities.
Mitigation - please boost our softcap more than normal, or our overcap return rate. Mob dps just rips us apart almost instantly now, effectively reversing the gains that we have made over silk classes in the past couple years. Even if this is via more levels of Armor of Wisdom, it is sorely needed again.
Burst DPS - I know that Elidroth is looking at this, but a restatement of ideas is posted below.
Pet healing - we have far too many lines of pet heals. Please stagnate all by Salve of Reshan and the Promised Heal. Friendly Pet needs a rework again (or have it work as it did in beta!), and our Pet HoT line is horrific. The cast/recast timer change was very nice, btw!
Group Haste - timer on that part of the spell appears to not have changed. As long as final timer is 45 minutes plus, I think we'll be overjoyed.
AA desires - a bunch are listed below (but please don't overlook the vanilla upgrades that we get each expansion). It's late, but please be open to some of these for beta retuning.
Too many small nuke/DoT lines - please consolidate our two 30-second timer cold nukes into one double strength one in the same spellgroup as our SoD cold nuke, and only upgrade this one? It would be great to see DoT sizes go up as well, to make up for the spell gems that we'll be using for the great utility spells I'm hoping to see.
No Beastlord representation in the CL program - please try to get one up on Zatozia's list. I realize that the current CL program is not a class-leader, but there are some large gaps in expertise on the current staff. I know that Zatozia has received several applications, from myself and others, please sir Lead Designer, haul some water for us! This should help lower the bitchfest from the community as a whole about the program (well, I can hope!)
Beta - I'm not on an automatic invite to beta list. This *must* be broken then! I'd love an early invite, and I hope this whole thing shows that I'd be worth it.
So, thank you for reading if you've made it this far, and my ideas are below.
Hopefully,
Khauruk 85 Beastlord, <Five Rings>, Luclin-Stromm.
[contact info snipped]
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Bestial Lurch:
Mana: 2500ish
Cast time: 0.5, recast 2 minutes
TargetType: Pet
Add Proc: Bestial Lurch, procmod rate 1000
Slot 1: Gravity Effect (-200/-250/-300 per rank (same as enc), base2)
Slot 2: Increase Melee Mitigation by 95%
Slot 3: Decrease Melee Damage Modified for All Skills by 95%
Slot 3: Increase Critical Hit Chance for All Skills by 0%
Resist: -500 Magic
Duration: 15 ticks
This would give us some of the old CC ability that we used to see. Cast on pet, attack mob we want controlled by pet, it procs, and we reposition with Companion's Relocation. 90 seconds should be reasonable for a group-geared group to kill one more (or nearly so). Tune hte Increase Melee Mitigation line so pet is *easily* healed without
requiring too much attention (heal every 9 sec or so, 12 sec or so for raiders w/ AAs/pet focus).
Spiritual Verve replacement/upgrade:
Slot 1 Limit: Only applied to Spells with Instant Duration
Slot 2 Limit: Only applied to Detrimental spells
Slot 3 Stacking: Block new spell if slot 4 is effect 'Maximum Hitpoints Modification' and lower than 1637
Slot 4 Increase Maximum Hitpoints by 637
Slot 5 Limit: Only applied to Spells with Effect Hitpoints (Damage Spells / Heals)
Slot 7 Limit: Combat Skills excluded
Slot 6 Increase Direct Damage Crit Chance by 5/6/7% & Increase Crit Damage by 4/5/6%
This a clone of current SV, but with the limits and effects of a very minor Frenzied Devastation (wiz dps disc). This would give SV a new niche, for casters, since melee mods are pretty well maxed or overpowering in many places.
Focus of Yemall replacement:
Slot 1 Increase Maximum Hitpoints by 1166
Slot 2 Increase Hitpoints when cast by 1166
Slot 4 Increase STR by 75
Slot 5 Increase DEX by 75
Slot 6 Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is effect 'STR' and lower than 75
Slot 7 Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is effect 'DEX' and lower than 75
Slot 8 Stacking: Block new spell if slot 1 is effect 'STR' and lower than 1147
Slot 9 Stacking: Block new spell if slot 1 is effect 'DEX' and lower than 1147
Slot 10 Increase STR Cap by 75
Slot 11 Increase DEX Cap by 75
Leaves hitpoints the same, but closes the gap a bit, which is extremely needed. Currently BST focus is barely ahead of the Brell's line of HP buffs, and we have lost any stat buffing ability due to no overcap stats. The following two spells are strongly desired as well, and restore former utility to the class.
Infusion of Spirit upgrade:
Slot 1 Increase STA by 100
Slot 12 Increase STA Cap by 50
Duration 1hr 12min
Transcendent Foresight version:
We'd love to see a 50% strength version of this, but realize it's not very likely.
Fellgrip Jaws upgrade:
Mana Cost: 5000
Slot 4 Add Melee Proc Fellgrip Jaws Strike Rk. XXX (proc rate mod 800)
Slot 8 Increase Dex by 75
Spellgroup Fellgrip Jaws
Fellgrip Jaws Strike
Slot 2: Decrease Haste (v1) by 70%
Slot 3: Add 24 Disease Counters
Duration: 10 ticks
Resist Type Magic (adjusts copied from current, maybe even reduced due to high proc rate)
Max Hits: unlimited
Duration: 15min
If you want us to actually be a slowing/debuffing class, give us the tools. In many places, a bard slower is better due to their ability to actually land the slow (slow mitigation makes the actual slow %age less important). Our pet slow is a great idea (and we don't mind the no snare tradeoff on the spell generally), but unless the current pet spell is upgraded, it is far too inconvenient to be worth the extra 5% slow. Just boost mana cost, remove the DoT (we hate it...uncontrolled DoTs are the devil!), and remove the proc limit on it. Otherwise, we need one of the following:
A boost to our lvl70 slow (Sha's Legacy) with -45MR and a 3 second recast delay (current is 6)
A slow based on poison resist, so that our Focus of Animus AA line can reduce resist rates. Base resist rate should equal that of current Sha's Legacy (-30MR on that one), and improvements come from Focus of Animus.
An enhanced cripple spell (we'd love an update of any sort to this, actually). Our current cripple is a lvl40 enchanter spells (Incapacitate). This line of spells has been stagnated for both beastlords and shaman. A clone of the enchanter cripples (Fragmented Conciousness is the current ones) with a resist adjust line (since we can't debuff magic) would be an appropriate addition that's not overpowering.
Disciplines:
Right now an AA (Bestial Alignment (BA)) has replaced our dps disc (Empathic or Bestial Fury (EF/BF)) as top dps potential. Elidroth has confirmed he is looking at boosting our burn potential, and I see a couple good ways to do this (there's also a thread on forums.beastlords.org about this). In addition to stacking discs, there is need for more ranks of hastened BA as well (24min max is too long, and our latest tunic also has hastened EF/BF on it, so there is precedence)
Stacking melee disc - main options of accuracy, crits, or hundred hands. Hundred hands effect would be the preferred choice (timer unlinked to BA or EF/BF) due to stacking issues with other raid effects, and it would be shared with a parent class. Lore can come from wolverine attacks.
Revamped 1st or 3rd spire - 3rd spire is still useless, and 1st is destroyed by 2nd spire (1st is used situationally if pet is dead) 3rd spire could be fixed to be a useful group damage enhancer, or a strong personal damage enhancer.
Spell damage discipline - we cast nukes a lot now that we have Frozen Venom, and DoTs a lot now that they're instant. A version of Frenzied Devastation (or another wiz/mage disc) would be a good burn disc if tuned appropriately (and give us some flexibility for ranged fights).
Pet Healing:
Please, lose some lines. Almost nobody uses the Pet HoT. Friendly Pet is currently very poor. Concentrate on the Promised heal, and the Salve of Reshan line please!
Pets:
More powerful pets please! Stagnate our melee if need be, but our pets should not be a small DoT on the mob. They aren't worth the time required to maintain them except for some utility (battery to get the Growl part of Haergen's Feralgia, for example). This is not an acceptable situation...pets should be ferocious to at least some degree.
Ferocity:
The big one. It's been broken for ages. We know it, you have said you know it. If you won't revamp it to be a useful spell, please don't update it!
Priorities for an update:
DPS boost high enough that it's worth the mana to buff ourselves.
Longer duration, with potential higher recast on it! Group would be an option too, w/ mana price tuned to 4 casts max.
Retaining both offensive and defensive "sides" like the current spell (though ones that are effective in current content).
A few ideas follow:
Defensive:
Stamina line changed to overcap STA
Resists changed to %age chance to reflect or block the spell
Overcap spell shielding/DoT shielding (if this is even possible)
Offensive:
Skill Damage Amount (XX) to add a boost per hit seems the most appropriate to me.
This doesn't stack as nicely for burns as the original did, but it is easily tuned, ranked, and will work for all content.
Triple attack boost
Accuracy Boost
Crit Modifier
AA Desires:
Pet runspeed boost! (please!)
Pet Swap!
Attack Command for our short term pets (Yowl at the Moon, similar to mage Rampaging Servant)
Upgrade for Spirit Frenzy (haste/atk boost....like Fero, Luclin era outdated dps methods)
Upgrade Group Bestial Alignment to higher damage, or add a secondary mod to make it more useful
More ranks of Hastened Bite of hte Asp/Raven's Claw/Gorilla
Combine Chameleon's Strike w/ the Bite of the Asp line! (or take it away, and add an AA to halve the use timer on the bite/raven's/gorilla line, resulting in similar deagro over time)
Updates to Focused Paragon that are more than 6 mana/tick!
Reuse reduction on Group Shrink!
Protection of hte Warder boosted to be better than Vie line!
A couple more ranks of Bestial Frenzy (double attack cap booster)
Flurry (we're the only melee who doesn't have it now afaik)
Imbued Ferocity
Nature's Reprieve
A version of Outrider's Evasion
Companion's Relocation - rank 2. Doubles knockback
Reverse Companion's Relocaton. Moves pet to me, works w/ pet having agro, limited by range (say pet must be w/in 20ft to work).
Bestial Alignment Upgrade
Bite of the Asp upgrade (higher DoT/deagro)
Extended Swarm - more ranks
Hastened Swarm - 3 ranks, each takes 1 second off of recast timer for Yowl at the Moon line.
Pact of the Wurine - one more rank, which splits the werewolf illusion to a separate buff (please, we just want to be our own races again!)
Taste of Blood - please revamp, and extend if revamped (pet never gets killshots, and the boost isn't worthwhile even if it does.) Or, just let the line die. Something like the Ranger's "Consumed by the Hunt" buff would be awesome.
I agree with almost everything you've said here so it'll be easier for me to just respond to things that I find issue or concern with how they were states
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Bestial Lurch:
Mana: 2500ish
Cast time: 0.5, recast 2 minutes
TargetType: Pet
Add Proc: Bestial Lurch, procmod rate 1000
Slot 1: Gravity Effect (-200/-250/-300 per rank (same as enc), base2)
Slot 2: Increase Melee Mitigation by 95%
Slot 3: Decrease Melee Damage Modified for All Skills by 95%
Slot 3: Increase Critical Hit Chance for All Skills by 0%
Resist: -500 Magic
Duration: 15 ticks
Pulling capabilities when combined with FD for sure. Not necessarily a bad thing but would be held against us.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Spiritual Verve replacement/upgrade:
Slot 1 Limit: Only applied to Spells with Instant Duration
Slot 2 Limit: Only applied to Detrimental spells
Slot 3 Stacking: Block new spell if slot 4 is effect 'Maximum Hitpoints Modification' and lower than 1637
Slot 4 Increase Maximum Hitpoints by 637
Slot 5 Limit: Only applied to Spells with Effect Hitpoints (Damage Spells / Heals)
Slot 7 Limit: Combat Skills excluded
Slot 6 Increase Direct Damage Crit Chance by 5/6/7% & Increase Crit Damage by 4/5/6%
I like the idea in general. What spell slot would we for the crit chance though, it's a common effect. Since SV is a long duration buff it wouldn't be terribly bad if there was a superior buff that took effect over this during a burn as long as it didn't knock the buff off completely.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AMRevamped 1st or 3rd spire - 3rd spire is still useless, and 1st is destroyed by 2nd spire (1st is used situationally if pet is dead) 3rd spire could be fixed to be a useful group damage enhancer, or a strong personal damage enhancer.
I'm still personally advocating the short duration spell dps enhancer be put on third spire, but I also want to throw out that I'm pretty sure we're the only class who doesn't have a defensive minded spire.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Spell damage discipline - we cast nukes a lot now that we have Frozen Venom, and DoTs a lot now that they're instant. A version of Frenzied Devastation (or another wiz/mage disc) would be a good burn disc if tuned appropriately (and give us some flexibility for ranged fights).
Frenzied devastation has the nasty double mana cost and it also has hit counters. I always say we want it as a spire so we can go without those negatives, but they wouldn't be the end of the world.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AMCast Times - the longer cast times on some of our combat spells are making them start to show their age quickly. The big culprit is Yowl at the Moon and Heaergen's Feralgia - we're at a point where we lose dps to cast them while burning at the higher end raid level.
I didn't see mention of the paragon cast times anywhere so throwing it here, I don't think I'm alone on wanting those reduced.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Heals - please reduce cast timer, triple heal size, and triple recast timer at a minimum. We don't want to be a main healer, or anything near, but our abilities have far from scaled w/ mob dps.
Triple heal amount is excessive. Something like 1.0 cast time 5.0 recast with a 3500 base would be sufficient for UF situations with the added benefit of not being locked in place just spamming the heal button.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Too many small nuke/DoT lines - please consolidate our two 30-second timer cold nukes into one double strength one in the same spellgroup as our SoD cold nuke, and only upgrade this one?
Frozen venom damage is based off of the cold line, would this change affect that spell line as well or would they just be independent going forward?
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Friendly Pet needs a rework again (or have it work as it did in beta!)
From what I remember it didn't do anything in beta. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I feel like we all thought it wasn't doing anything until they were already in design lock someone told us it was a defensive proc. It does need a rework though if the line continues, no disagreement there.
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Combine Chameleon's Strike w/ the Bite of the Asp line! (or take it away, and add an AA to halve the use timer on the bite/raven's/gorilla line, resulting in similar deagro over time)
Noooo on combining the effects. Chameleon strike is the deagro AA we always wanted(needed), short refresh, high -agro, no additional BS making it situational. Having to click the extra buttons to maximize our deagro sucks, but I really don't want to see a dot or debuff added to chameleon strike.
Quote from: Hzath on June 28, 2010, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: Khauruk on June 28, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Heals - please reduce cast timer, triple heal size, and triple recast timer at a minimum. We don't want to be a main healer, or anything near, but our abilities have far from scaled w/ mob dps.
Triple heal amount is excessive. Something like 1.0 cast time 5.0 recast with a 3500 base would be sufficient for UF situations with the added benefit of not being locked in place just spamming the heal button.
If these changes were applied now, they would be too overpowering, but if they are intended for release of HoT, the triple heal mentioned here would probably be a very good ball park figure, but overpowering if its intended for a quick mod to the current Cadmaels for example.
Cast times of 0.1 are balanced for us, recast time can be adjusted to make this not overpowering, just don't take away my DPS :)
Edited for readbility.
3x our base heal is almost as much as devout light, that's going to be too much for us even next expansion if we get a faster cast time.
But devout Light or its next in line will be more, and we'll have a long-assed recast time to prevent us from being a "main healer".
Lurch could be goofed w/ to not allow snare to proc, or overwrite. Same goofing w/ mitigation and agro so it's not an ability allowing for a group to do any fight ranged.
I still dont' see a single DL every 8 seconds (or whatever) as being anywhere near a problem. Healers spam those now.
Wouldn't hurt to add in pet Play Dead and an increase % change to successfully play possum for us. I dont care if the reuse is 10 minutes as long as if I hit the button it actually works.
Interestingly enough if you think waaaaaay back our very first spell was flash of light. Which was a CC tool really. May not have been the best one but saved my arse more then once lol Was trying to think of a way to maybe give that to the warder? Have him blind or maybe "scare off" a mob and blur it. Kinda of like a flusterbolt sort of. Someone mentioned before of say a pet rotwielier growl/barking at the mailman and having them flee in terror and not come back.
I am not sure what we really need at the raid level but by no means should our cold nukes be linked into one line. Having 4 x .5 sec nukes isn't bad and I macro them all together if I really need/want the added DPS. Now combining our Poison DoT's and linking them I would be more friendly to because spamming a instant cast DoT is a little pointless. I still don't use the Desease DoT so if they combined that one and linked it, I wouldn't care either. But please don't link our nukes, we finally got 4 x .5 sec nukes.
...Although lowering the innate agro that our new poison/ice nuke does in future expansions wouldn't hurt, just give it the standard 30 sec delay.
Do you enjoy having more buttons to press than any other class now to do mediocre dps, and needing another button press to do 0.25% of a mob's HPs? I sure don't. I find it pretty disgusting, and it reduces my flexibility by taking up another spell gem.
And please please please please no 30 sec delay on Frozen Venom! Frozen Venom is the only way I can dump mana now w/o spamming DoTs for mana reiterate procs.
30 second recast timers on our DoTs in trade for larger DoTs is a trade I'd likely make as well.
As far as button clicks go, it would be nice to get an AA that would autofire the Rake line/ Feral Swipe and kick during combat. Would prefer a 1 tick delay after auto-attack myself before these would fire.
The pet lurch concept is interesting. Right now I would prefer more attention on our utility and dps vs. our CC ability.
I like the ideas for improving Verve and Focus lines.
I am a supporter of getting a group fero line. I would like for it to have some over cap dps increasing abilities. Would be nice for it to be highly desired in raid setting. The recast restriction would keep it from being cast on entire raid, except maybe MGB during a burn fight.
I would like to see a stam regen component either added to the paragon line or the fero line.
Dots. I would support linking the poison lines and linking the disease lines, if we got a higher damage dot. These can get a bump in mana cost. I am less concerned on dot efficiency these days as I am casting time.
I would like to see 2 new melee disc.
1) A new defensive disc. Same timer as old one, but last longer
2) A new offensive disc. Can affect both bst and pet, but it should not change targets.
Quote from: Mordeb42 on June 29, 2010, 02:18:08 PM
The pet lurch concept is interesting. Right now I would prefer more attention on our utility and dps vs. our CC ability.
CC != utility?
CC is part of utility. I just break it out as it's own category based on my experience.
Background: I box bst/druid/Chanter in mostly group settings, and raid with 1 toon only once and a while. So I hardly ever view CC as part of my bst activities except to off-tank non-mezable mobs. So this viewpoint is just part of my experience.
I like the pet Lurch idea, it is very creative. Combined with pet relocate increases it could be very interesting.
I just place my emphasis on attributed DPS type utilities along with personal/pet dps and personal survivability. I wouldn't frown on debuff increases either.
http://ev
Quote from: Mordeb42 on June 29, 2010, 02:18:08 PM
I would like to see 2 new melee disc.
1) A new defensive disc. Same timer as old one, but last longer
2) A new offensive disc. Can affect both bst and pet, but it should not change targets.
EPic fail if they change it it wil get most likey a 7-10 min reuse
I don't want our defensive looked at either! :P While it's direct power may not be as strong as other classes', it's amazingly short reuse time makes it one of the best discs in game imo. Another would be nice, but I doubt we'll get it, and I'm not sure we deserve it. I would like to see Protection of the Warder upgraded to useful though!
Offensive disc - from everything we can tell, this is incoming already. We of course don't know what form it will take, but it will be made.
CC - this is an ability we had through much of the game, and have lost due to pet stagnation. I don't think our pet can be upgraded enough to do a good job at CC (well...not can, but "will"), so I think this is a good method in which we can regain that utility. It just needs to be made so that it's not OP for raid mobs/etc.
You guys are on the money about defensive. I use it so often and had it so long, I thought it might be a good candidate for upgrade. But changing the recast time would be terrible, and any upgrade would probably take that route.
If anyone gets in beta, perhaps they could push for "Protection of the Warder" to either be changed for the better or at minimum stack with cleric vie line.
stacking with cleric via is mor of a pain in the ass for dev's then making it a % upgrade with more ranks
Quote from: Blarp on June 29, 2010, 06:52:29 PM
stacking with cleric via is mor of a pain in the ass for dev's then making it a % upgrade with more ranks
Change Slot 1 to Slot 2 on PotW and instant cleric Vie stacking. They already put all other class AA Vies on slot 2 no clue why they put ours in slot 1 where it conflicts.
A few notes :
Leave Focus line the way it is -- just HP. Upgrade Infusion of Spirit to include str/sta/dex Overcaps. Why? There are/have been situations where just HP buff landed but not Unity type spells, because of the spell bonuses. Also, by separating out the stat buffs, some classes have the option of using their class self buff + stats instead of being forced to go with Unity.
SV line -- SV 85/96/103 Atk, 501/592/637 HP, BLW 0/0/0 Atk, 737/831/938 HP, SotT 123/140/150 Atk, 227/328/353 HP. Overall, our buff is pretty good being about 2/3 the HP of BLW and 2/3 the Atk of SotT, but DPS always going to go for max Atk, casters max HP and lack of interference with other spells. Adding something new to this spell probably not the best way to go, since the 3 buffs are balanced off each other. We'd be better off with whatever added ability/abilities being part of a different spell that is available broadly rather than forcing a choice.
Ferocity - Everyone seems to want things like group versions, aura version, get rid of sta buff, add 3x attk, add flurry %, etc. IMO, go with an UPGRADED fero line, with improved duration, lower recast times, resist overcaps, heroic STA if possible or a stackable STA overcap if not, keep the ATK portion and add a bit. Something like -
5 : Increase Heroic Stamina by (A), (Increase STA cap by (A) if heroic not possible)
7 : Increase Attack by (B)
8 : Increase All Resist Caps by (C)
X : Skill Damage Amount (x) [increase damage for all types of melee attacks, regular/skill/AA/disc/etc.)
Y : Skill Damage taken (-y) [reduce damage taken by y per attack]
Get it up to a 10 min base duration, 30 sec recast timer. Go with single target for now, look at a group version (v1, IMO) for the second half of the 86 to 90 expansions.
If you want things like double and triple attack bonuses, etc., then get a NEW spell line and kill Fero. Don't try to change it so its only Fero in name. All that does is add baggage.
All pet buffs really should acquire a self or group recourse. In fact, it would be nice if they could make them YELLOW bordered spells that hit us and recourse the main section to pet.
PotW just needs its % bumped to 10% and its good really. More duration higher total, maybe.
Our Animal attacks, like gorilla and raven, just need a boost really. Much faster reuse on those 2 compared to asp. Add bear maul to allow us to reposition mobs to counter our class's push issues. Personally, I don't use raven or gorilla because the effect doesn't last until reuse for raven and stun was pretty useless when i tried it. Add the faster reuse AAs so that asp can be used followed up with raven or gorilla in between asp reuse and they'll get used more.
Part of our problem is we always seem to be asking for bst versions of this or that that other classes have. Good on resource allocation for programming, but we're always going to get at best an equal version compared to the other class. We need our own things. MOD2 buffs maybe?
Spirit frenzy -- Upgrade it to +100% v1 haste, +25% v3 haste, hundred hands effect, for us AND warder. This would be the SPEED part of our burn. Bump to 75 or 90 sec duration. Given current reuse timers, a lesser secondary burn is possible this way as well.
Empathic Fury -- Upgrades to minimum and maximum damage modifiers. Get rid of the retarget to pet by building from scratch. Increase duration to 75 or 90 sec. Possible crit rate increase as well? perhaps set twinproc to 100% and increase proc rate %? This should be the DAMAGE part of our burn.
Bestial Frenzy AA for 3x attack. Same system as our 2x attack AA. Add burst of speed AA for 3 to 5 ranks of Burst of Power AA but for Double attack. Gets our 2x attack skill ahead of 3x attack and keeps our increased 3x attack abilities in a raw +% rather than skill form. We need flurry AAs as well.
IMO, beyond improvements to existing things or tweaks to existing things, there are 2 areas we should be looking at for where to find new stuff. Instinct/Awareness and Beastlord Animism.
Instinct/Awareness. - Not necessarily the acme of raw power AAs, sure, but there ARE abilities we can and should extrapolate. From being able to act on an instinctive level vs a conscious level, being able to boost our senses to levels found in animals, to expanding our ability to attune to the environment to more than just paragon. Some of these could be :
Sensory - If we're sensitive enough to our environment that we can tap its energies to provide health and mana, we should be able to sense disturbances in that energy - AKA permanent see SoS. By using this sense in combat, we should be able to dodge, block and riposte in a full 360 degree circle around us and limit all backstabs to the frontal version. Effectively, we should have no flank or back to attack. By using a combination of scent and hearing (and possibly touch, ie able to detect minute air pressure changes), we should be able to be effectively immune to blindness.
Heightened senses of sight, hearing and smell should allow us to track. If you give yourself the sense of smell of a wolf, the hearing of say a bat and the long distance sight of a raptor, combined with the ability to see things with much higher resolution and therefore catch small visual cues, you'd have to be able to track at least as well as someone relying on human senses and training.
Instinct - We should be able to function on a completely instinctive level in combat. Basically, we should be able to acquire immunity to melee silence (that ability some mobs have to freeze out special attacks and discs, should also apply to those same abilities in regular silence -- asp isn't a spell, it shouldn't be limited like one).
Nothing in this category is powerful in a pure dps sense, but being the class best able to function in circumstances that are otherwise crippling can be a very big plus. The defensive bonuses arent anything to sneeze at either.
Beastlord Animism - Where to start? Quite simply, being able to call on the full range of abilities, both offensive and defensive, available in the animal kingdom provides a huge range of abilities to choose from. Protective coloration, to warn off attackers, contact and spray poisons and irritants, runspeed of a horse or cheetah, leaping abilities, the sensory abilities listed above, things like electric eel shocks, porcupine/hedgehog spines, digging, preternatural reflexes and speed, defensive shells, etc. Here is where our utility comes into play and our ability to boost our combat abilities. By calling on the totem spirits of various animals, we should be able to give ourselves and/or our warders and/or others the ability to use these abilities when necessary.