Now as another class we should be trying to get along with are the mage class.
There has been some concern from the mage community and has been brought up on the mage boards from EQlive.
Thread to Topic http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Magicians&message.id=2864 (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Magicians&message.id=2864)
Now I don't want it to be a flame fest or a grass is greener discussion because the intention of the thread, though looks sort of like it, wasn't meant in that way either. Try to be constructive plz :)
Mages come up with this conclusion every few months / every time there's an expansion and complain about us. Some have erupted into full scale flame fests. In the end, most beastlords want the mage's heals, the mages want the bst heals and SOE does neither :p
erm..
Beastlords got the mage heals...
We are content now :)
That granite stance thing that lowers pet damage taken looks hot. I understand why they want our heals (esp. promised mending) b/c their pets can actually tank and heals would be useful. I can count on 1 finger then # of times ive healed my pet in the past week (outside of Mend Companion).
The other thing ive noticed since TSS has come out is that mage pets now out-dps my warder. Warder was never out-dps'd in the past, usually about 10% better than mage pets.
So the grass is always greener :-)
To me I thni k the thread is mnore of a chance to work with another class to get some issues hashed out and discuss what works and what doesn't when it comes to pet surviability over all. If we can at least get that sort of set up with a second class daying the same thing, maybe most the remaining issues can be fixed *Shrug*
Regardless of his disclaimers to the contrary, it's an "Im jealous of what the beastlords got" thread, never mind the fact he downplayed the value of the mage spells while upplaying the value of beastlord spells.
Quote from: Shamno on October 11, 2006, 05:15:45 AM
To me I thni k the thread is mnore of a chance to work with another class to get some issues hashed out and discuss what works and what doesn't when it comes to pet surviability over all. If we can at least get that sort of set up with a second class daying the same thing, maybe most the remaining issues can be fixed *Shrug*
It's way too late to salvage anything from that thread. Once the mages start crying about how their pets should always and without question be better then our pets I think you lose any chance you have at reasonable discussion with us.
They seem to be right about one thing though, or sort of right form what I have observed. Their Aura with Agra's Celerity is about the same with our new pet haste.
Something that probably couldn't hurt adjusting so it stacks or something. *shrug*
Part of the bickering is thier utiltiy affecting our pets but ours not effecting thiers. Realisticly this is the nature of the beast if, you will, with them having their pet utility all the time and us not *shrug* Yet somehow they think our pets are coming close or even ahead of theirs. This is not really the case and lore wise the fact we have abilities to affect our own pets but not others does make sense for us.
Look at Growl and 69 disc. In our own class description this is what we do. It makes sense. They of the master of pets can enhance any pet. It like a bard complaining that a beastlord will surpass them in melee DPS when the bard is in the same group while they will have the slight advantage thier ablities bring when not in the same group. It is a contridiction to think this isn't suppose to happen in some manors.
Our pet-specific buffs may not affect mage pets, but our regular line of buffs do. Pets have notoriously low agility and dex, simply casting IoS (if there isn't a sahmmy around) on a pet will boost it's dps. The agility really helps a mage pet's avoidance and for it to fire Burnign Aura procs.
Yes, the armor, weapons, belt and muzzle plus aura bonus that a mage can give to our pets boost us more than the stat and hp buffs can boost theirs. Big deal. As I said in their thread, I saw a mage pet tanking in Valdeholm spider pit. The day I see a beast warder doing that same, I'll start trying to sell showshoes in hell.
Yeah some of the basic stuff I can understand. The runes, prism skin recourse, and even to some extent the pet heals make sense to me. Grant it we will always have better pet heals because of AA's alone. They mainly drooling over the promise mending spell, as situational as I found but I know others like it.Though I don't mind see mages getting a lesser copy of that spell and a few more pet heals with better ratios then what they have now.
Spellbreaker Guard and the direct pet runes, and some spell with prims skin recourse should have been made universal to the 3 pet classes though. Like they started out in LDoN. No reason that should have changed. The spells were designed to fix an issues that all 3 pet classes do have to some extent.
Other then that I don't think they have a leg to stand on. Our buffs are merely a little over 900 hp and I highly doubt this closes the gap all that much between our pet and thiers. Growl and our Disc are rather limited and shouldn't be made to go to other pets because of the limited state.....last thing I want is a tell every minute to cast Growl, still fending off the ferocity tells.
Also they expect slow to be balanced into this like it is an actual pet spell. Yeah pet proc, but I am sure you know what I mean.
While beastlord pets certainly don't pass mage pets in any situation yet, the fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility, compounded with the fact that most of the magician utility is shared between all pets means the warder<->elemental gap is being closed.
Problem is you guys misunderstand the use of utility.
Take the 2 knights classes. Ideally they will have the same HP when under similiar progression and AA's. Now a Paladin on his own becauzse of his utility will have more HP. The paladin doesn't buff the SK and then complains about a gap closer, simply becuase the SK got the same amount of those utilities the SK has.
Or take a Zerker and a Monk. The intended DPS gap does not take the aura of the zerker into consideration when solo or grouped with the monk. It is utility.
The gap between our pet and your pet is without pet aura and pet weapons, these are simply utility. Like my SV and focus lines. Like Slow and Damage Shields.
Now I can agree to the heals to an extent, I can agree that a PoR spell prism skin upgrade is in order, I can also agree that you should gotten Spellbreakes guard like we should have gotten Mammoth skin as well.....pet runes should be universal.
I just don't agree that magically we suddenly close a gap by using your utiltiy.
Other then Spellbreakers and the Pet heal, which I can understand to an extent. I don't understand the other base arguements. It simply doens't match up.
Quotethe fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility
I thought "utility" was what defined us as a class. We're certainly not a DPS class nor are we a tank class. When we try asking for upgrades to some things we usually get our utility (in the form of our slow mostly) thrown back in our face as to why people don't think we deserve an upgrade.
What is the beastlord class if not a Utility class?
From what I have seen from the last 4 years of playing a bst ... we have slowly been leaning towards a dps class from GoD to current. we havent gained alot of affects ( utility in the last few expansions ) Fero was and still is in a much need state of upgrade...... Perfection is our biggest tool on raids and its doesnt even compare to other utility classes. I would say at the current moment bsts are in a transition period.....SoE doesnt seem to know what exactly they want to do with our class....and no offense to those who have helped or have tried to give soe a good direction most of the Vision/ Arguements you put up are Weak and not well thought out.....we need to get together as a whole and agree on things and Then post on what we want to see changed. This is a proven method from talking with the monk class corrispondant and rogue one....its the only way to get dev's to listen....just my 2 cents worth....thanks
Quote from: Skanda on October 16, 2006, 07:07:12 AM
Quotethe fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility
I thought "utility" was what defined us as a class. We're certainly not a DPS class nor are we a tank class. When we try asking for upgrades to some things we usually get our utility (in the form of our slow mostly) thrown back in our face as to why people don't think we deserve an upgrade.
What is the beastlord class if not a Utility class?
The important word is *pet* though. I'm not saying beastlords shouldn't have gotten the pet utility they did. None of the upgrades were out of line for the beastlord class. However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison, and that makes the gap close. Beastlords don't need to be nerfed, but mages need a prism skin/hastestatthingy upgrade.
Quote from: Tulisin on October 16, 2006, 10:46:30 PM
However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison,
That is what I hate the most about you mages. For some reason you think you're the "kings" of the pet world. No one has ever explained why that should be the case in a reasonable manner to me before and I totally disagree with that attitude.
Now don't get me wrong here, I do think you should have gotten Spellbreaker's guard just like we should have gotten Mammoth's Guard because those lines of pet survivability should be for all three pet classes. Any other utility spells I don't think you should have gotten just because we got them.
Quote from: Skanda on October 16, 2006, 11:13:46 PM
Quote from: Tulisin on October 16, 2006, 10:46:30 PM
However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison,
That is what I hate the most about you mages. For some reason you think you're the "kings" of the pet world. No one has ever explained why that should be the case in a reasonable manner to me before and I totally disagree with that attitude.
To break it down for you in the most logical manner possible. A long long time ago, before the Beastlord class was even a twinkle in Sony's eye, there was the mage class. The mage class was claimed to be the master of summoned things, as a result we could make important items such as whisp stones and bags that would delete your loot if you logged. On top of that, we were given the ability to deal high damage to summoned creatures for less mana then a normal damage spell, because we are their master and they should fear us. Along with our ability to summon objects and deal serious damage to summoned critters, mages were given respectable damage nukes. The mage could nuke almost as good as a wizard, slightly better then a necromancer (who's main damage came through DoTs), and slightly better then an enchanter. Of the four classes, mages were the second best in direct damage. Since mage summoned items were situational at best, and their nukes were outperformed by wizards and only slightly higher then necromancers (who again dealt damage in other ways) and slightly higher then enchanters (who had other uses) the mage class was given a Damage Shield. The damage shield was a welcome addition to the mage class, since it now gave us a reason to be grouped aside from our nukes. However, druids also had an identical damage shield and could play the role of healer, crowd control, and DPS (equal to that of a mage) and so the mage class was still in need of some serious balancing.
When it came down to picking classes for groups, mages were not a favorite. They lacked all forms of crowd control, utility, and only had moderate DPS at best. Someone at Sony put one and one together and decided that the masters of all things summoned would be able to summon a pet. A wonderful idea! Mages would have a pet that was unique from the other pet classes, in fact, they will have several pets because they are the masters of all things summoned and can do stuff like that. So they took the four elements and created four pets that would best represent each element and each pet had it's weaknesses and strengths. The mage pets were to be the strongest and the most powerful of all the pets. Since mage pets were so strong, it was decided that the mage class would not get any forms of defense or escape from an attacker outside of using their pet. They would get no root, snare, stun, slow, mez, charm, fear, rune, blind, or shadowstep. Through the use of their pets, mages gained the ability to root and stun mobs for short durations. This was based on the pet casting spells and while it was not very reliable, mages could still flee while their pet was taking a beating for them. Then the mage class was given focus items, to increase the power of their pets for anyone willing to quest from the temple of solusek ro. As the mage got braver, he might find a highly sought after staff of elemental mastery to increase the power of his pet even further. Mages had become the king of pets, and pets would be their biggest utility as well as their biggest hindrance in years to come.
And to this day, the reason mages are not given any serious forms of escape/crowd control is because our pets are very powerful and we can use them to ward off mobs (which is one of the reasons pets zone now iirc). A large portion of our spell lineup is directed at creating even better pets and pet equipment, however, this equipment can be distributed to any and every other pet that the mage chooses to equip.
Summary: In lieu of having any form of escape and crowd control, mages were given the best pets to defend themselves against attacks. As such, mages have been refused additional escape utilities because of how powerful our pets are, being that we are the true king of pets. As a nuker, mages were second best. Our summoned items were situational. The elemental spells are more of a roleplaying aspect then functionality, since down the road mages did get an elemental mez and charm but there was only a handfull of elementals that would be important enough to mez or charm at that level. As far as crowd control, escape, and group utilities, we have nothing. However, when it comes down to pets.. mage pets are the best.
Quote from: Skanda on October 16, 2006, 11:13:46 PM
Now don't get me wrong here, I do think you should have gotten Spellbreaker's guard just like we should have gotten Mammoth's Guard because those lines of pet survivability should be for all three pet classes. Any other utility spells I don't think you should have gotten just because we got them.
I don't see whats wrong with the logic of:
1. We both got prism skin procs in PoR. The beastlord proc comes from the regular pet proc spell. The magician prism skin procs off "Iceflame Guard" which has a slight (+15) DS component.
2. The beastlord spell was upgraded, iceflame was not. They simply need to create a 74~ version of iceflame guard with 20/25/30 DS on it.
As for the pet haste upgrade, the best for magicians is Burnout V from PoP due to stacking issues, that just needs to be fixed.
As proposed, a 71 + spell that acts as both an iceflame upgrade and a haste upgrade would do just the trick and pretty much clear up all issues I have at the moment on this subject.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 12:32:36 AM
However, when it comes down to pets.. mage pets are the best.
I don't think anyone is arguing that fact, and we didn't need the entire Magician history to prove that. No one is saying that Beastlord pets should be, or are, better pets than Magician pets, but you guys whine and complain that you want an even
better pet, when you
already have the best one?
Let's talk about utility. Sure, we have more pet spells, but they're not game breaking.
Healing -- You guys aren't a healing class. In fact, you're the exact opposite -- you're a pure Intelligence caster. Heals shouldn't be talked about. Promised Mending is great, and I love it, but why should a Pure Intelligence caster be able to heal like a Wisdom-based Hybrid?
Slowing -- Our pets can slow. But how many of us actually use Steeltrap Jaws on a regular basis? I don't. It's more beneficial to use my individual slow spells than to waste mana on that peice of junk. So our pet didn't really gain any utility there at all, it just shifted from the player to the NPC.
Snare -- Our pet can Snare? Your pet can root, AND tank better!
Stuns -- Our pet can stun, but your air pet can proc TWO stuns!
Tanking -- Obviously, you guys win.
Pet Procs -- You guys never had a pet proc in the first place, but Beastlords did. That's one of the things that defined our pet. Now that you guys got Iceflame, you automatically need a new upgrade in the next expansion?
Blocking Detrimental Stuff -- We have Feral Guard and Spellbreaker's, but you guys only have Aegis of Calliav. You call for something like Spellbreaker's. But, wait... your pet already does (almost) EVERYTHING better than ours.
In closing, I'd like to say:
Stop whining, and live with what you've got.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 12:32:36 AM
The mage could nuke almost as good as a wizard, slightly better then a necromancer (who's main damage came through DoTs), and slightly better then an enchanter. Of the four classes, mages were the second best in direct damage.
So obviously you also need the best pets in the game no questions asked.....
QuoteThe mage pets were to be the strongest and the most powerful of all the pets. Since mage pets were so strong, it was decided that the mage class would not get any forms of defense or escape from an attacker outside of using their pet.
According to the Dev team that worked there 7 years ago and no longer works at SoE. Times change and so do the focus of classes.
QuoteThrough the use of their pets, mages gained the ability to root and stun mobs for short durations. This was based on the pet casting spells and while it was not very reliable, mages could still flee while their pet was taking a beating for them.
So sort of like Beastlords and our pet snares, stuns and our new Slow?
QuoteMages had become the king of pets, and pets would be their biggest utility as well as their biggest hindrance in years to come.
Times change and so do Dev teams. This current team has nothing to do with whatever you were told 6+ years ago.
Quote
And to this day, the reason mages are not given any serious forms of escape/crowd control is because our pets are very powerful and we can use them to ward off mobs (which is one of the reasons pets zone now iirc).
Last I checked Beastlords were rather lacking in the CC department too. This has nothing to do with us.
Quote
Summary:....
Summary: You have the second best nukes in the game ("Slightly" under wizards), have the best pets in the game and now you want the best pet utility in the game with no questions asked.... that just doesn't sit right with me. Especially since most of what you're griping about (CC and escape ability) beastlords lack too.
What exactly do you intend on giving up to keep yourself balanced with the other two primary pet classes?
Quote from: Inphared on October 17, 2006, 12:49:14 AM
but you guys whine and complain that you want an even better pet, when you already have the best one?
If wizards could do the same nuke damage as everyone else, but for one less mana, why should they ask for upgrades?
My point is, there is a difference between being "the best" and "good enough". There is a margin between best and second best that has to be maintained.
Quote from: Tulisin on October 17, 2006, 12:39:13 AM
I don't see whats wrong with the logic of:
1. We both got prism skin procs in PoR. The beastlord proc comes from the regular pet proc spell. The magician prism skin procs off "Iceflame Guard" which has a slight (+15) DS component.
2. The beastlord spell was upgraded, iceflame was not. They simply need to create a 74~ version of iceflame guard with 20/25/30 DS on it.
As for the pet haste upgrade, the best for magicians is Burnout V from PoP due to stacking issues, that just needs to be fixed.
As proposed, a 71 + spell that acts as both an iceflame upgrade and a haste upgrade would do just the trick and pretty much clear up all issues I have at the moment on this subject.
You're right on point number 1, and absolutely wrong on point number 2. Prism Skin was included on our new pet proc because, stay with me here, IT WOULD NEVER BE USED OTHERWISE. LAIRN WAS A DOWNGRADE IF IT WASN'T INCLUDED. MAGES CAN STILL USE ICEFLAME GUARD ON THEIR PETS! THE FUNCTIONALITY IS STILL THERE! NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU FROM USING IT. NOTHING WAS ADDED TO THE BEASTLORD PROC TO MAKE IT MORE SPECIAL. The dev team wrote themselves into a box when they added it as a normal beastlord pet proc. THERE WAS SIMPLY NO OTHER ROUTE FOR THEM TO TAKE. Iceflame guard stacks w/ the other mage pet buffs. Hence, no "need" to continue the line as it's already in place in *almost* the same implementation you're asking for.
Why the heck mages would want to take up a 'spell slot' for an upgraded DS on iceflame guard as a trade for a better summon/nuke/whatever, I have no friggin' clue!
Is mage haste scrizzewed atm...perhaps. But, Iceflame guard should be a friggin' non-issue.
Beastlord Pet Utility
Slow - they gimpified our slow so now it's not controllable by the PC. Downgrade, esp. due to it's stacking issues w/ epic, etc,. THIS WASN'T A NEW THING FOR US, JUST A NEW IMPLEMENTATION TO AN EXISTING ABILITY that mages, imnsho, should never be given to mages.
NonissueSnare - lacks reliability, just like mage pet roots. Nonissue
Spellbreaker's Guard - we agree w/ you (well, I think we surpass general *expressed* mage wishes, that both Mammoth and Spellbreaker's ought to head out to all 3 pet classes.
Heals - your pet tanks much better than ours, so I see it as a
non-issue. It's situational at best.
Why do any magicians feel that arguing here is going to accomplish anything, in a forum where their viewpoints will almost certainly NOT be heard by devs. You're not even communicating with your own community correspondant, and you really don't expect ours to go to bat for you, do you?
I suggest you start a new thread in the dev forums that doesn't even mention the other pet classes, since your most valid points have nothing whatsover to do with them (i.e. stacking issues). If you can keep the jealousy and/or entitlement feelings out of it and stick to the issues, you might get listened to.
Quote from: Skanda on October 17, 2006, 01:59:43 AM
QuoteThrough the use of their pets, mages gained the ability to root and stun mobs for short durations. This was based on the pet casting spells and while it was not very reliable, mages could still flee while their pet was taking a beating for them.
So sort of like Beastlords and our pet snares, stuns and our new Slow?
Quote
And to this day, the reason mages are not given any serious forms of escape/crowd control is because our pets are very powerful and we can use them to ward off mobs (which is one of the reasons pets zone now iirc).
Last I checked Beastlords were rather lacking in the CC department too. This has nothing to do with us.
Summary: You have the second best nukes in the game ("Slightly" under wizards), have the best pets in the game and now you want the best pet utility in the game with no questions asked.... that just doesn't sit right with me. Especially since most of what you're griping about (CC and escape ability) beastlords lack too.
What exactly do you intend on giving up to keep yourself balanced with the other two primary pet classes?
While mage pets can root, beastlord pets can snare and slow (and the beastlord himself can slow).. which is one more method of survival then we have. That isn't really the issue though, I don't mind Beastlords being able to slow or snare etc. Fact of the matter is, beastlords have a better chance to CC then mages do, with the ability to snare/slow and take a few hits. I don't care to discuss who has what for CC and the like, you asked for the definitive answer about why mage pets are to be the best. You say times change, but I still lack any additional forms of escape outside of my pet. Maybe times change, but the mage class hasn't changed that much.
Have you looked at mage nukes lately? Our best nuke does roughly HALF of a wizard's best nuke. That equates to mages not even being close to wizards in terms of nukes (times are changin'), and putting more focus on our pets. And as far as keeping balanced among the other primary pet classes? Necros gave up their pet abilities in order to get all the other abilities Necros have (not getting into that here), their DoTs easily outdamage our nukes, so I'm not concerned about keeping balanced with them in the least.
Beastlords and their pets? Frankly, I don't think we need to give up anything. Beastlord pets are closing the gap between mage pets and I do not feel that there needs to be anything given up. Beastlords and Mages are two very different classes (beastlords can tank and deal melee DPS while mages can not tank and deal ranged DPS), I don't think there needs to be any kind of balancing outside of the pet's and their support spells. I don't care where beastlords themselves parse on raids, it's not my concern, they are a different class with their own strengths and weaknesses. However, their own pets are increasing in power while mage pets seem to remain similar to where they were in the last expansion. Beastlord support spells are really nice for a pet class to have, and it is causing the gap to close among the pets. Since this shouldn't be the case (already explained why), I don't think it's asking much to give mage pets some kind of support spells/skills similar to beastlords to continue keeping the gap the same.
Giving up something is really not needed if we're discussing keeping the pets equal. I'm not going to get into beastlord DPS and the like, this is merely a pet discussion. If you still want me to give up something I'll gladly give up Flare, True North, See Invis, Kindle, fire pet from 50-70, most of my summoned items from 1-50, and the amazingly uber pet spell DS.
Nusa: I'm here to bring up a sensible discussion with the beastlords because this isn't an issue where anyone needs to be bitter over. I'm not calling nerf, I'm not screaming that this is extremely overpowering for anyone, it's merely a discussion about the pet support spells both classes have and why the beastlord pet is closing the gap between mage pets. I'm not being rude or derogatory towards the people here or their opinions. I'd expect the same respect, but then again.. this is the beastlord forum and people are entitled to act however they wish. No one here is asking beastlords to have their correspondant "go to bat" for us, I could care less about what he/she does. We have our own and he can argue with the best of them. This thread wasn't brought about by a mage, it was posted by another beastlord and only has a few mages stopping in to give you their opinion on the matter. If you disagree with it, fine, but there's no harm in discussing it here.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 03:52:34 AM
I'm here to bring up a sensible discussion with the beastlords because this isn't an issue where anyone needs to be bitter over.
There's no sense in any discussion where you are trying to argue (with no real leg to stand on) that you should be the best at everything. Mages were never a major utility class, beastlords started from day 1 as a utility class. So coming to our forums and trying to say that you should have better pet utility then us is absurd. Let's not even mention the fact that our utility is restricted to our own pets and so a non issue to anyone but the beastlord while you're pet utility can be passed around the everyone.
You don't have an argument that I can see except in the case of Spellbreaker/Mammoth. You have no leg to stand on concerning Steeltrap because it's a spell that was already in our lineup. You don't really have a leg to stand on for Promised Mending because you're not a healing class, plus your pets tank a hell of a lot better so should require less healing.
I'm not really interested in your "I wanna be the best" class whines spilling over onto our boards. If you want to keep this discussion open then I suggest you step back and try to keep your complaints to a reasonable level. It seems most people here would support the Spellbreaker/Mammoth change for ALL the pet classes. I doubt you're going to drum up much support for mages getting pet upgrades or slow procs or snare procs or whatever it is you're looking for just because beastlord pets have become a "threat" (that's a word used by a mage btw about our pet) to your pet.
Quote from: Skanda on October 17, 2006, 04:08:14 AM
There's no sense in any discussion where you are trying to argue (with no real leg to stand on) that you should be the best at everything. Mages were never a major utility class, beastlords started from day 1 as a utility class. So coming to our forums and trying to say that you should have better pet utility then us is absurd. Let's not even mention the fact that our utility is restricted to our own pets and so a non issue to anyone but the beastlord while you're pet utility can be passed around the everyone.
You don't have an argument that I can see except in the case of Spellbreaker/Mammoth. You have no leg to stand on concerning Steeltrap because it's a spell that was already in our lineup. You don't really have a leg to stand on for Promised Mending because you're not a healing class, plus your pets tank a hell of a lot better so should require less healing.
I'm not really interested in your "I wanna be the best" class whines spilling over onto our boards. If you want to keep this discussion open then I suggest you step back and try to keep your complaints to a reasonable level. It seems most people here would support the Spellbreaker/Mammoth change for ALL the pet classes. I doubt you're going to drum up much support for mages getting pet upgrades or slow procs or snare procs or whatever it is you're looking for just because beastlord pets have become a "threat" (that's a word used by a mage btw about our pet) to your pet.
In fact, I used the term threat. Frankly, the gap between the pets is closing due to beastlords getting better pet support spells. It's a fact, and I know damn well that beastlords wouldn't like it if mages were given the ability to tank and do respectable melee damage as well as slow. No, that would be encrouching on your territory and you wouldn't feel too happy about it.
As far as arguing without a leg to stand on, I'm standing on them just fine. If you don't care to aknowledge them, that's your issue. I'm not going to repeat myself over and over in hopes that you might pick up a grain of information because you're being thick. Sometimes it works better to cover your ears with your hands and scream "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" There's no one crying nerf, so your class is safe. Back to what you said earlier, "Mages were never a major utility class", which means we are the major pet class.. right? Since either we're utility, DPS, or pet(?). We are out-nuked, so we must not be the major nuke class. In fact, the only thing mages really had was the best pets. Guess that makes us the king of pets.. right? So continuing with that train of thought, how is it possible for beastlords to get things like Spellbreaker and leave mages in the dust on raids while their pet survives through the AEs? We're the main pet class, right? Your train of thought has led me to that reasoning yet again, so why are beastlord pets surviving during raids when my pet lays down and dies? I'm blown away by the utility that beastlords have been given for their pets, not to mention for groups and the like. Yet they continue to be able to tank/DPS/utility and have a pet that doesn't suck.
As someone told me earlier "What exactly do you intend on giving up to keep yourself balanced with the other two primary pet classes?". What have beastlords given up to gain such powerful pet spells anyway? I'm curious to know, so I can make some suggestions.
Here is the problem.
Runes such as Spellbreakers Guard and Mammoth Skin should have been shared on both ends. Relaly no argueing on this. These like pet focus effects and like the spell line sstarted out in LDoN, should be universal. Heck I don't care if you get a prism skin proc upgrade or someother way to get it functional on your pets.....but keep in mind it probably won't be as strong as beastlords.
The PR heal spell, to me isn't such a huge deal for mages to get a version of it......but understand even if you got the exact same heal spells you will not heal as well as beastlords. You have less access to heal focus and heal AA's. Though I am all for expanding the mages healing spell line....might need a revamp overall. I just don't htink you can expect to heal as well as us.
These seem to be the major issues. The heals are up for some debate I guess, but overall we agree.
Utiltiy.....as I said earlier is just that. Utiltiy.....things like pet aura, mage toy, mod rods and beastlord buffs and slows are utility. They can effect pets, but they aren't really counted in the total package of what the pet does. Somehow some mages are painting some mystical pet gap closer when we use thier utility. To me this does not add up.
Also one can argue mages do have better pet utilty.....they effect more pets then their own *shrug*
Listen guys. In many ways, most classes get defensive about any thread of this nature no matter how inthreatening it was suppose to come off of. So I think we all need to calm down a tad.
And what's up with this Karma stuff? Can I get even more negative? Tulisin has +1 somehow, I'm so much cooler then him anyway.. you know.. because I'm evocation and he's not.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 03:52:34 AM
While mage pets can root, beastlord pets can snare and slow (and the beastlord himself can slow).. which is one more method of survival then we have. That isn't really the issue though, I don't mind Beastlords being able to slow or snare etc. Fact of the matter is, beastlords have a better chance to CC then mages do, with the ability to snare/slow and take a few hits. I don't care to discuss who has what for CC and the like, you asked for the definitive answer about why mage pets are to be the best. You say times change, but I still lack any additional forms of escape outside of my pet. Maybe times change, but the mage class hasn't changed that much.
Ok, if you gotta count escape routes, let's mention Gate. You got it, we don't. Casts fast, usually works. While we're at it, lets mention your ability to rescue others with CoTH. Talk about a valuable utility.
As for definitive answer, there is no such thing, only what the devs have decided is currently best for class balance. Pointing at the original class description from before beastlords even existed is a futile exercise.
Quote
Have you looked at mage nukes lately? Our best nuke does roughly HALF of a wizard's best nuke. That equates to mages not even being close to wizards in terms of nukes (times are changin'), and putting more focus on our pets. And as far as keeping balanced among the other primary pet classes? Necros gave up their pet abilities in order to get all the other abilities Necros have (not getting into that here), their DoTs easily outdamage our nukes, so I'm not concerned about keeping balanced with them in the least.
Have you looked at beastlord nukes lately? Or our DoT's? We're not even in the same league. Enough said.
Quote
Beastlords and their pets? Frankly, I don't think we need to give up anything. Beastlord pets are closing the gap between mage pets and I do not feel that there needs to be anything given up. Beastlords and Mages are two very different classes (beastlords can tank and deal melee DPS while mages can not tank and deal ranged DPS), I don't think there needs to be any kind of balancing outside of the pet's and their support spells. I don't care where beastlords themselves parse on raids, it's not my concern, they are a different class with their own strengths and weaknesses. However, their own pets are increasing in power while mage pets seem to remain similar to where they were in the last expansion. Beastlord support spells are really nice for a pet class to have, and it is causing the gap to close among the pets. Since this shouldn't be the case (already explained why), I don't think it's asking much to give mage pets some kind of support spells/skills similar to beastlords to continue keeping the gap the same.
You keep making unsupported claims. You're making the claim, so please back it up with some data. Saying you don't care about the data (and you ACTUALLY SAID that above) isn't going to get you anywhere. I contend that beastlord pets have not closed any gaps, even if a few magicians perceive otherwise. Heck, some started out claiming beastlord pets were better than magician ones...even YOU don't believe that.
Quote
Giving up something is really not needed if we're discussing keeping the pets equal. I'm not going to get into beastlord DPS and the like, this is merely a pet discussion. If you still want me to give up something I'll gladly give up Flare, True North, See Invis, Kindle, fire pet from 50-70, most of my summoned items from 1-50, and the amazingly uber pet spell DS.
Too late, you already got into DPS issues above. And there's no such thing as "merely a pet discussion". The player is involved from step one, starting from the decision on which type of pet to summon. And without specifying a very specific test environment (or set of environments), there's really nothing more to talk about.
Quote
Nusa: I'm here to bring up a sensible discussion with the beastlords because this isn't an issue where anyone needs to be bitter over. I'm not calling nerf, I'm not screaming that this is extremely overpowering for anyone, it's merely a discussion about the pet support spells both classes have and why the beastlord pet is closing the gap between mage pets. I'm not being rude or derogatory towards the people here or their opinions. I'd expect the same respect, but then again.. this is the beastlord forum and people are entitled to act however they wish. No one here is asking beastlords to have their correspondant "go to bat" for us, I could care less about what he/she does. We have our own and he can argue with the best of them. This thread wasn't brought about by a mage, it was posted by another beastlord and only has a few mages stopping in to give you their opinion on the matter. If you disagree with it, fine, but there's no harm in discussing it here.
My point is why are you bothering? Best case you get called on your shit like I just did, and worst case it turns into flames and the thead gets locked.
Nilaman - you ***CANNOT*** discuss pets w/o discussing the class as a whole, and it's role in EQ as a whole. C'mon man...at least give us a reason to pay attention to what you're saying.
QuoteI'm blown away by the utility that beastlords have been given for their pets
Drama much?
Chill out man...the gap is miniscule, comprising 2(?) spells. And guess what....we agree w/ you on those. But, you have "pet utility" out the wazoo that we don't get innately. Hmm...imo, you come out on top.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 05:22:25 AM
And what's up with this Karma stuff? Can I get even more negative? Tulisin has +1 somehow, I'm so much cooler then him anyway.. you know.. because I'm evocation and he's not.
I think the + 1 was from some post previous to this, like I remember~.
Anyways, I'll be willing to accept that the beastlords got a prism skin upgrade in this expansion and mages didn't, as long as the proc modifier on that prism skin never increases without magicians getting something equivalent. The haste issue still needs to be addressed though, for both classes. Although beastlords are less-affected by this because they don't always have the mage aura at their disposal, the fact remains that:
Arag's Celerity
1: Increase Attack Speed by 85%
2: Increase STR by 115
3: Increase AC by 71
5: Increase ATK by 75
is better than
Unparalleled Voracity Rk. III
Slot Description
1: Increase Attack Speed by 85%
2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 8%
3: Increase AC by 84
5: Increase ATK by 108
When there is a mage around using
Rathe's Strength Effect
Slot Description
7: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 10%.
Meaning in a raid situation or a group-with-a-mage situation, you should be using your PoP spell, due to the massive effect of the STR boost.
The problem is amplified for magicians since we always have the aura around.
Solution: The new beastlord haste needs a STR boost, and magicians need a new haste that has STR on it.
You MAY have a point about the Strength bonus on the older version of our hastes, however the All Skills Modifiers, and your aura, is really a nonissue when you consider our level 69 DoN spell, which hits both the pet and the beastlord, and stacks fine:
Growl of the Panther
Slot Description
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 20%
6: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 150 per tick
7: Increase Max Hitpoints by 1500
A mana-hog for sure, but anyone who is able to get Rank III spells is also likely to have the mana to burn when it really matters.
Since i play both a mage at lvl 64 and 2 beasts lvl 40 and 67 i do notice a difference,
looking at heals for instance my mage is using planar renewal ~1200hp roughly healed for 290 mana and 3.75 sec cast,
while a similar level bst would be using healing of sorsha most likely, healing around ~2040hp for 495 mana 3.75 sec cast,
recast times are 2.5 for bst and 2.25 for mage so not much difference.
Now i haven't added any healing aa's or foci for the sake of keeping it simple, with my mage heal i could not keep the pet alive
against a lightblue mob in Blackfeather roost even when casting as fast as possible, doing that my dps drops to zero,
in this case i ended up running to zone since not much else to do, not saying my 67 bast would be able to stay alive either but i find
it more likely, sure bst have no gate but sow helps a bit(yes i do know some mobs run faster still), at 40 doing the relic task in blightfire moors my warder could tank one mob and bst another, sucks that even these mobs in the mid 30's mitigate slow :( there was a mage here at the same time, if she had an add she had to run away,while i could handle 3 mobs at once, sure some thanks to higher level but slow(even mitigated) and my healing spell helps, sure mage can use healing potions but the 2 min reuse timer is a killer :)
All in all i'm fairly happy with my mage/bst, the only thing i can think of is the pet heal part, sure the bst ones if looking at 64 costs more mana but it also heals almost twice as much and while my bst i no aa monster i still critted the pet heal for 5k+ when trying to solo the sunderock geyser task, not that it helped i died anyway :)
Can't say much about the spells you discuss mostly since there higher level then me, the pet buffs i have right now i rarely use i admit, except for the haste one.
Quote from: Nusa on October 17, 2006, 06:08:11 AM
You MAY have a point about the Strength bonus on the older version of our hastes, however the All Skills Modifiers, and your aura, is really a nonissue when you consider our level 69 DoN spell, which hits both the pet and the beastlord, and stacks fine:
Growl of the Panther
Slot Description
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 20%
6: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 150 per tick
7: Increase Max Hitpoints by 1500
A mana-hog for sure, but anyone who is able to get Rank III spells is also likely to have the mana to burn when it really matters.
And this results in a 28 % skill damage modifier for the warder? I have never known modifiers to stack like that, but your spell may be a special case. I always assumed that the 20 % would just take effect, effectively increasing the modifier by 12 % over the regular haste for the duration.
No, I just meant there were no stacking issues in casting the spell. Only the highest modifier takes effect, 20% in this case.
Oh, long as we're at it, let's mention the spell druids love to toss on all the melee and pets these days:
Mammoth's Strength Rk. III (base duration 72 mins)
7: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 8%
One of the first spells I click off if I need the slots.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 05:09:15 AM
It's a fact, and I know damn well that beastlords wouldn't like it if mages were given the ability to tank and do respectable melee damage as well as slow. No, that would be encrouching on your territory and you wouldn't feel too happy about it.
This is what cracks me up about the "my class isn't powerful enough, wah wah" crowd. I could care less if you get everything mentioned above, plus a dev to personally come to your house and follow you around with a padded recliner and a box of tissues to wipe your tears every time you think class X is outperforming you.
/shrug
I really don't have an issue with the pet rune spells being shared out equally between all the pet classes. It's been that way since LDoN and I really don't think it makes sense to change it now. As far as promised mending goes, I see no reason why mages can't get a version that scales with their current level of heals. Same thing with the prism guard. The haste issue obviously needs to be looked at and it affects both classes.
I guess I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel like I am competing for groups with mages. Mages pretty much seem to be taken for dps. I am picked more for my slows. So the way I see it, strengthening mages makes my groups better. Anyways, it is rare for me to even see a mage, and I like grouping with them, so maybe they need a boost to get more people playing them.
Actually, ANY class that gets all their defensive AA's and picks up enough AC, HP, and avoidance gear can do a lot more tanking than you might realize. Of course the reality is that casters have other priorities when choosing what to get, so when they go down like wet rags, its partly because of their choices. You see it among beastlords, too...some of us focus entirely on maximizing dps and then wonder why they die so often.
Bestuss - when was the last time you cast a pet heal lol? I haven't memmed one for over 2 years (I say this as a non soloing, non raiding fellow). To compare pet heals in such a manner (on paper vs how they are used/not used in the game) is silly. The mob to toon to pet dynamic is totally different. I don't mem a pet heal because my pet doesn't take damage usually. Instead I mem a regular heal and use that on the pet if I need to. The comparison of pet heals is almost like saying warriors should ask for range DPS increase bringing them closer to what rangers can do simply because they can use a bow too. That isn't what warriors do. Do we have the best pet heals? Yes. Do our pets tank? No. If mages get a better heal should we stamp out feet and cry "mage pet heals are closing the gap on us being the best pet healers in the game"? lol. Until they change the underlying code where mobs automatically attack toons in proximity range vs pets I just don't see this changing.
My issue with the talk of a "gap" being closed is what is that gap really? Is it a paper comparison of which class has more pet utility spells? If that is the case are mages tied to pets in the same way we are in terms of recourses (this I don't know)? I realize that in terms of surviability on the soloing front if our pets die we can take a few hits, if a solo mage's pet dies there are a few more issues. What I am talking about are our discs and spells that don't fire/we can't use if our pet is dead ie snare, growl line, 69 offensive disc, (broken) pet slow at 75, etc. Not to mention the spell gems we have given up to have those things memmed. I wouldn't be surprised if this wont be more and more of the trend (Bst utility tied to pet; pet must be alive). The spells we got in TSS are an attempt to try to keep the pets alive longer because they die quick. At the end of the day my mage's pets still are better tanks then my warder. Can we now keep our pets alive longer? Yes. With the new TSS spells will you start seeing Bst fight like mages and have their pets tank for them? Going out on a limb here (sarcasm) but I will venture to say "No." Honestly I see that as the main issue. Until Bsts pets outtank mage pets I just don't see an issue with a whose pet is the betterest "gap." If that day comes then no doubt there are issues.
Keep up the fight though cause as long as Bst don't get nerfed this only helps me since I box a Bst/Mage/Dru =)
Quote
Beastlord pets are closing the gap between mage pets
This is the problem as I see it. Mages aren't super super far ahead of us anymore so they freak out and try to get us nerfed. Frankly, I'm tired of this debate for the what, third time? Mages, listen up. You can't be the best at every damn thing, stop trying to get us nerfed, stirring up shit on our forums, etc. If you want more power, talk to your correspondant. If/when Sony laughs at you for wanting to be able to tank as good as a leather class, nuke like a wizzie, have a pet so powerful that its like 2boxing all the time, etc... Don't come crying nerf to other classes because your demands are unreasonable.
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now
nil.
Off to the Sewers with this thread.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 12:32:36 AM
Quote from: Skanda on October 16, 2006, 11:13:46 PM
Quote from: Tulisin on October 16, 2006, 10:46:30 PM
However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison,
That is what I hate the most about you mages. For some reason you think you're the "kings" of the pet world. No one has ever explained why that should be the case in a reasonable manner to me before and I totally disagree with that attitude.
To break it down for you in the most logical manner possible. A long long time ago, before the Beastlord class was even a twinkle in Sony's eye, there was the mage class....
I apologize for the massive snipping of your post, but I just wanted to point out that referring to the time before beastlords existed as a means of establishing where mages and beastlords should stand currently isn't even remotely logical, much less "the most logical manner possible." It's like arguing that reptiles should be considered the most advanced creatures on earth because that's what they were before mammals existed, or that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers shouldn't have won Super Bowl XXXVII because they didn't exist back when Green Bay won the first one.
Moreover, your approach in your post (in the parts that I haven't quoted) isn't even logically consistent. According to you, the strength of mage pets was a byproduct of their reduced desirability in other areas and a logical extension of their "summoning" abilities, as opposed to a "vision" of mages as the ultimate pet using class. In other words, you're telling a story where mage pets were something of an afterthought to prove the point that the primary design of mages was to be the ultimate, unsurpassed pet class for all eternity.
The real answer is that mage pets and beastlord pets (and the abilities each class has to deal with pets) have to be viewed differently because of the fundamentally different ways in which they are used. Mages don't get fast, super-efficient, high powered heals because if they did, they could use their pets to tank much more effectively than they do now, which apparently SOE doesn't want (or at least hasn't wanted in the past). Mages don't get slow for various reasons, but one thing that really stands out is that slow actually does not complement some of the other mage primary abilities, like damage shields. If a mage pet is tanking something, the mage wouldn't even WANT it to be slowed so long as the pet can survive the target's damage output. The faster a mob hits, the more damage your damage shield does. Again, this is why mages covet fast, powerful heals (along with tough tanking pets) -- it would allow them to get the most use out of damage shields while also increasing pet survivability. And because mages can do almost all of their damage from range, their pets are able to tank for them.
Beastlord pets work differently (in fact, beastlords themselves play almost entirely differently as a melee/hybrid than mages do as spellcasters, which makes these comparisons all the more ridiculous). Beastlords can't use thier pets to tank for them, since for the most part beastlords need to be in melee range to do damage, which prevents the pet from taking aggro from a mob because of the hard-coded mob target preferences. By and large, beastlords care more about the damage output of their pets rather than outright tanking ability.
In a world where we were starting from scratch, we might imagine mages having powerful tank pets to defend them, and beastlords having high damage pets to assist with dps, based on how each class actually uses their pets to complement "weaker" areas where they need help. Each pet would actually have different strengths that complemented the class that it belonged to, and if one pet surpassed another in a particular area or possessed abilities that weren't shared by the other pets, it wouldn't be viewed as some kind of MMORPG treason.
But we don't live in that world. We instead live in a world where people (or at least mages) imagine mages having pets that are the best at everything, by a large margin, in every conceivable situation, simply because they existed first. It's not a world that makes a whole lot of sense, though. It's the primary reason these discussions never go anywhere.
Quote from: Jaeren on October 17, 2006, 02:15:56 PM
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.
Off to the Sewers with this thread.
Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.
I for one agree with Jaeren. I've heard this same argument everytime Beastlords catchup to mages in an area, and the next expansion usually brings about a significant shift upwards in mage power in comparision with a beastlord.
I'm frankly tired of hearing the mages should have the nukes that they have, the pets that they have and all of their other utility, PLUS having pets that are significantly more powerful than any other class in the game. Mages were made overpowered when DODH came out, and its only take the developers now to realize that they needed to bring them back in line. If you want the same types of tools, get rid of all the nuke upgrades you guys have gotten over the last few expansions, then maybe you will find an ear over here.
We've been screwed over for so long; you can't expect us not to get defensive when you call for nerfs on our abilities, especially after we've fought tooth and nail for god knows how many years to get us back to a point of viability.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: Jaeren on October 17, 2006, 02:15:56 PM
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.
Off to the Sewers with this thread.
Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.
So uh you barely have a use for beastlords as it is but we're overpowered? Uh yeah. Thanks for proving my point that you just wanted to cause problems. And for future reference. Insulting forum owners.. Not overly smart. If i was so thick headed and unreasonable, you wouldn't be able to see this message. I'd ban you and block your ip address from accessing the site. Instead, I gave my viewpoint and moved the thread to the Sewers which is the rant & rave section. Aka: bitch however much you want but guess what? I don't care to read your posts and won't unless it goes really over the line and people complain about them. (Or I get extremely bored and cruise through the sewers)
Once again though, thanks for saying that we are useless. But still need a nerf. :mrgreen:
Quote from: Jaeren on October 17, 2006, 06:52:27 PM
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: Jaeren on October 17, 2006, 02:15:56 PM
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.
Off to the Sewers with this thread.
Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.
So uh you barely have a use for beastlords as it is but we're overpowered? Uh yeah. Thanks for proving my point that you just wanted to cause problems. And for future reference. Insulting forum owners.. Not overly smart. If i was so thick headed and unreasonable, you wouldn't be able to see this message. I'd ban you and block your ip address from accessing the site. Instead, I gave my viewpoint and moved the thread to the Sewers which is the rant & rave section. Aka: bitch however much you want but guess what? I don't care to read your posts and won't unless it goes really over the line and people complain about them. (Or I get extremely bored and cruise through the sewers)
Once again though, thanks for saying that we are useless. But still need a nerf. :mrgreen:
When did I ever claim beastlords were overpowered and/or in need of a nerf? The pet gap is smaller because mages lack the improved spells, not beastlords. Mages did not come to this board and start a thread, a beastlord did because he saw merit in it. You ARE being thick. Understand that? If I wanted to come here and start trouble then I would have done so already. I've never called for a beastlord nerf yet, but I do think they need a DPS upgrade in the form of a melee increase of some kind. Maybe you could bash mobs?? I hear kick is popular, even the snakes are doing it! But seriously, beastlords could use a melee boost. See? Not all h8 for Sony's marketing gimmick, I'm fine with them gaining some kind of talent that would make them more appealing to groups and raids.
And for the nukes? Take a look through Lucy. Look at mage nukes, then wizard nukes, then do a bit of math and figure where we stand with necromancers too. After that, feel free to come back and talk more about how super amazing our nukes are.
Since you want to drag epeen into this discussion... from forum owner to forum owner: Nice advertisements!
Now I don't think any mage is asking for a nerf. Rather upgrades on some utility that for no reason should give them upgrades.
Now utility such as spellbreakers guard and Mammoth Skin, yeah we can see the universal and should be. We agree. Heck even PR I can understand to an extent.
Nill you were the one complainging about slow earlier where you not? Somehow counting it as out pet utiltiy? SV and Focus as well?
How about us being able to use your pet utility to somehow close a gap? You even went as far to say that our warders are now on par with your pets now?
You see where we can be a little upset yet?
Where we might think that some one might be fast to think that you are calling for a nerf?
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 10:35:04 PM
When did I ever claim beastlords were overpowered and/or in need of a nerf?
When you start refering to our pets as "threats" it's a pretty good indirect indication that you think we're overpowered.
Quote from: Discordant on October 17, 2006, 06:38:57 PM
I'm frankly tired of hearing the mages should have the nukes that they have, the pets that they have and all of their other utility, PLUS having pets that are significantly more powerful than any other class in the game. Mages were made overpowered when DODH came out, and its only take the developers now to realize that they needed to bring them back in line. If you want the same types of tools, get rid of all the nuke upgrades you guys have gotten over the last few expansions, then maybe you will find an ear over here.
While I personally have no use for most of the newer nukes and have not bothered to get them, they do not represent an increase in magician power over what new spells would normally bring. Mage nuking power hasn't got a boost, just progressed along with new power increases at the same rate as the other nuking classes. I personally don't like nuking and wouldn't mind getting rid of it in favor of pet power, but I realize I'm not the majority in this.
Spells that try to correct the HUGE problem of pet survivability should be given to all pet classes. This includes Mammoth Guard and it includes Spellbreaker's Guard.
There is absolutely no reason that i can see to give any other pet class a form of Promised Mending. Beastlords are a wisdom based class, the same as all the healers. Int casters are primarily damage based. There is no reasoning behind allowing an int caster to heal even CLOSE to the ability of a wisdom caster. Promised Mending type spells are currently unique to wisdom casters and should stay that way, at least for now.
You guys are also crazy to think that beastlord pets pose some sort of "threat" to your pets. A magician pet will hands down out tank, out dps a beastlord pet, no doubt in my mind. Sure, your pets are no longer twice as good as ours as they once were .... but they never should have been twice as good to begin with.
As for pet heals i have one memmed at all times on my bst's and mage + the regular heal for myself, cause with the power of the mobs in tss a 1200hp heal is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg, won't help much at all to bad i can't use the pet heal on myself :)
Maybe if i had 10k unbuffed hp or more my pet didn't need to tank while i heal up as he has to do now with some of the damn overpowered mobs in tss.
The people on the mage boards ought to have never mentioned Beastlord's. I looks like they just wanted a few tweeks to the spell lines they currently have. Bringing in BL's just muddied the waters of any good debate. I do not see any good (fair?) way to compare parses of pets. Asking us to drop the pets aa's to get a parse? Oh well, I did get a few good chuckles in reading this.
/chuckle
Yep, exactly the case.
Quote from: Nilaman on October 17, 2006, 12:09:15 AM
It's a fact, and I know damn well that beastlords wouldn't like it if mages were given the ability to tank and do respectable melee damage as well as slow. No, that would be encrouching on your territory and you wouldn't feel too happy about it.
Tank away Nil............................... I wouldn't mind one bit :) Though IF mages think they should tank too.. then... shouldn't bst get better nukes? *sarcastic smirk* I mean you have no clue as to our nukes do ya? We get cold nukes that are resisted all over Norrath and our dots? sheeshh don't get me started....
Though, I'm pretty happy with TSS bst AND mage pet utility spells - hubby plays a mage so Tigger is usually fashionably geared and his pet is decently buffed. As far as the HP and STR of the two pet.. well there can be no doubt mages have the stronger pet in the 71 then the 73 bst pet.. Do I mind? Not one bit..
Part from both classes having a "pet" you are comparing apples to oranges...
Just my 2 cents...
KitKat