The Beastlords' Den

I am pretty unhappy with my agility stat, its only 107 right now. All my other stats have come along very well but I was wondering how important agility seems to be.

I know more agi means more AC, but it does seem like a trivial amount more of AC. But since we fight like monks, I was wondering if higher agility scores improve our dodge and parry, and if it lessons the amount of hits we take or their severity.

Anyone know about agility, and if so, if there is a sharp drop off on effect after 100, 140, or whatever value?

I think it is generally assumed that agi has some effect of avoidance, but afaik, no one has been able to really parse good hard data to prove it.  It's like dex in that way - you are pretty sure it helps procs and such, but what "magic" levels there are - 150, 200 or whatnot have never been able to be really nailed down to the point that someone says at 65 dex vs 135 dex you will get 1% more procs. Or, at 154 agi, you avoid 1% more damage than at 125 agi.

Agi does help with ac somewhat for sure.  Frankly, I just would not sweat it too much.  If you can get it higher, do it.  If you have to lose a lot of ac, stam, hps, wis or other things that show a *measureable* benefit, then I personally don't think it's worth it.  At the end of the day, having 1 or 2 low stats is really not going to be a detriment to your toon.  Higher is always better, but low stats don's make a toon less viable really.  At least not to the point to be a real problem.

My main reason for asking is I am starting to acquire Ldon armor that has type 2 aug slots. I've been wondering what to buy for them, wisdom, agility, resists or what, and agi and resists are my greatest need, if you just look at numbers.

I picked up this chart from the 'net a long time ago. It shows the increase in displayed AC as a function of agility. Unfortunetaly the link to the data is dead now so i cant provide any further details

(http://members.chello.nl/~pg.deheij/agility.jpg)

As you can see, the only real magic number for agility is 75. Below that you take a big hit to AC, which gets worse at higher levels. Above 75 AGI the increase in AC is always the same.
At 200 AGI there's a kink in the graphs, you get diminishing returns on AGI above 200.

As Ghoat already mentioned, the effect of agility is so small its hardly possible to parse out. If you cant parse it out, then you certainly wont be able to see any visible return from AGI in-game. Im not saying you should neglect your agility tho, every bit helps (you cant parse out Combat Agility at lvl 1 either, but we assume it does something). An extra 30 AC doesnt hurt anyone. But because it takes 150 pts of agility to get that extra 30AC, AGI isnt worth sacrificing other stats for. Raw AC, hp's, STR, STA and WIS are more important. Just make sure you dont drop below 75 AGI and you're ok. Eventually as the quality of your gear increases so will AGI.

/hugs

Personally for aug slots i would put things that can not be buffed or buffed easy.  More Ft is good.  Proc items and such.  I am personally saving most of my slots for resist augs in them since with a shaman/chanter around you get stats and mana regen pretty easy.  Yes bards and druids can raise the resist but those do not always seem to be around on raids.

Agi adds a bit a AC and helps you learn defensive skills (as dex does offensive) and that's about it.

Quote from: GoretzuAgi adds a bit a AC and helps you learn defensive skills (as dex does offensive) and that's about it.

Or so it is rumored.

But face it, who REALLY has a hard time maxing thier skills as they progress - unless you never get hit, or use one kinda of weapon your whole life.

I think I remember someone parsing that there is a 3% increase in avoidance when going from 198 to 210 in agi or something to that effect.  

So, mine stay above 200.


I don't have the parse or a link to it, but I do remember it as it was the only parse indicating such.

QuoteGoretzu wrote:
Agi adds a bit a AC and helps you learn defensive skills (as dex does offensive) and that's about it.


Or so it is rumored.

But face it, who REALLY has a hard time maxing thier skills as they progress - unless you never get hit, or use one kinda of weapon your whole life.

Well it was Dev stated that it help you learn defensive skills, now as to the reliablity of Dev statements that's a whole other issue.  :)

I don't pretend to understand parsing nor do I really want to.  I do trust my own eyes though and I know for a certainty that the higher my agi the less often I see the red "you've been hit for" messages.

I remember very well how dramatically noticeable it became the first time I ever cast Frenzy and got that +25 insta-boost.  I'm convinced and in the end I guess that's all that really matters.

QuoteI think I remember someone parsing that there is a 3% increase in avoidance when going from 198 to 210 in agi or something to that effect.

I've only ever once seen a parse on the infamous 200 AGI breakpoint, and if thats the one you are referring to, then you remember wrong. Yes, the total avoidance went up. But it was a 1000 swings parse, and the statistics were so bad that the number of ripostes doubled, dodges increase 50%, block stayed the same and parry decreased. And none of these skills are even affected by any stat. The only thing that should've been affected, the miss rate, actually decreased by 5% but even that was not statistically significant either. The only thing that parse showed is that 1000 swings wasn't even close to enough to show an effect.
Add to that the fact that you dont see a bump in AC at 200 AGI, like you do at 75 AGI then you can pretty much dismiss the notion of a breakpoint at 200. In fact, its far more reasonable to assume that the benefits of AGI follow the AC vs AGI chart, in which case AGI > 200 is futile

Quotedon't pretend to understand parsing nor do I really want to. I do trust my own eyes though and I know for a certainty that the higher my agi the less often I see the red "you've been hit for" messages.

I remember very well how dramatically noticeable it became the first time I ever cast Frenzy and got that +25 insta-boost. I'm convinced and in the end I guess that's all that really matters.

If an effect is really noticable in-game underneath the huge statistical variance, then its so large it'll show up in a 5 minute parse. But hours of parsing are required to even show an effect of agility, and even then the best you can narrow it down to is 'a few percent' every 100 AGI. Believe me, you shouldnt trust your eyes to tell you what is happening. For one thing, its your brain that is telling you what is happening, not your eyes. Your eyes just convert photons to electrical signals. Your brain is not equipped to deal with randomness, and with good reason, it's a pattern seeker.  Even now as you are reading these words on your screen, your brain is making up most of it because it knows what to expect. And its incredibly efficient. If you scramble all the words in this text but leave the first and last letter of each word intact, you still have no problem understanding it.  There's a blind spot on your retina where the optic nerve leaves it. It's as big as 150 moons in the night sky. Yet you 'see' no blindspot, because your brain fills the gap with what it expects to be there.
And thats the problem with random behaviour, there's nothing there to be expected. But you do anyway, in this case you want there to be an effect of AGI so your brain starts looking for pattern and suddenly notices the periods in which you get hit less often (by pure random fluctuation) more then it did before.
Everybody has this. If you still dont believe me, just turn on autologging in the eqclient.ini. Next time you get a 'feeling', start a parser and load your log file. It'll be a humbling experience and teaches you to be your own worst critic

A recent example: when the topic came up, several people swore that they could see an increase in hit ratio when there ATK went up. If you've seen my ATK parses then you know how that ends.

/hugs

yay @ Copro joining us at this board. :)

Damn Coprolith that nearly made my brain explode.

Agility may also effect the new endurance pool.  I read somewhere that it is determined by averaging strength, dexterity, stamina and agility.

If you could locate that and post the link, (Hopefully SoE released info) it would be awsome.

Quote from: Thrashum GudDamn Coprolith that nearly made my brain explode.

Usually counting past 10 has that effect on trolls ;)

Err.. one, two, many, lots    :mrgreen:

Have to hand it to you, Coprolith.  Your parsing and analysis has been a blessing to our community.

I, and I'm sure others, really appreciate the time you've taken to break down the effects of stats, AAs, etc on the Beastlord class.

Sure, sometimes it creates an intense pressure on the inner portion of my skull, but in the end it's all good.

/hug right back at you.  :)

"But you do anyway, in this case you want there to be an effect of AGI so your brain starts looking for pattern and suddenly notices the periods in which you get hit less often (by pure random fluctuation) more then it did before."

I got love and respect for ya Cop, but the same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc...    They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.  

It can go both ways and thus, why and extended parse of the subject is needed.

:wink:

Quotethe same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc... They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.

It can go both ways and thus, why and extended parse of the subject is needed

With respect I believe this is faulty reasoning. The issue at hand is the effectiveness of agility to *demonstrably* change the results of combat. The point being made by those who parse -- and I don't lay claim to doing any more than logging my fights and looking at dps for personal curiosity -- is that they *cannot* find a significant difference.

So, when someone says, "I used an agility buff and *noticed* taking fewer hits from a mob" the reality is that humans are not capable of accumulating reliable statistical information watching hits scroll on a screen. It's like wandering around in a forest trying to count and catalog animals. You end up with anecdotes about snippets of experience.

If analyzing a parse of a few thousand lines of combat doesn't turn up any "Agility Bears"--the equivalent to clear cutting a section of forest and rounding up all the animals, then they're mighty rare. If agility had a powerful effect, it would be found underfoot even in short parses.

Mind you, if probability and statistics was intuitive most forms of gambling would disappear.

Rippykin 65 Beastlord
Quellious

QuoteI got love and respect for ya Cop, but the same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc... They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.

I can feel the love Scalewulf  :D
You're wrong tho, most people that claim AGI has little effect base their judgement on parses, not their feelings. Im sure there are plenty of people with low AGI that think adding more AGI would help tremenduously, but they simply haven't got the means to up it yet.

Telling people they're wrong, now that's real troll loving  :wink:
There's only one way and that's the Troll way  :twisted:


/hugs

im one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another.

I go by what my char does IN GAME. and if its just IN MY BRAIN that im getting hit less with my AGI at 305 then thats all fine and dandy to me.

As a Beastlord your an AVOIDANCE class, you wear leather your NEVER going to get high AC and even if you could your on a different AC scale anyway from plate so you gain less benefit.
and thats even more pronounced now after that latest patch that upped Warriors AC mitigation even more.

What i did is go with the flow of my char, most of my good equipment has good AGI stats, crappy AC.
I maxed my def AAs asap CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE plus 305 AGI and add in some +8% to Dodge and Block augs and your as good as your ever going to get as a Beastlord.
Just need to really work on your HPs

I tank Mobs that hit for 1000 or less damn well regardless of what some so called parse says is completely moot to me.
Before i got ANY AAs i had high (255) AGI, worked good for my BRAIN and char IN GAME just fine.

Yep basically there's no reason NOT to have good agility (even if all it does is add a bit of AC).


And it's possible it does have an effect in some of the newer (well 'new' comparatively :)) abilities (such as AA's), but all the parses I've seen show that it's got no noticable effect other than adding some AC.  :(

I use bright colors to track things.  My hits are yellow, mob hits are red, spells are dark blue, when they wear off it's lime green.  Other than that I have no other forms of battlespam.

Maybe it is just my imagination but I don't see nearly as many red text lines as I do yellow ones.  IMHO part of that is my agi and part of it is my continual use of FoL.

Hard data may indeed prove my reasoning to be faulty but I have faith that the higehr my agi the less hits I take.  I've run too many toons of nearly all (never a bard or monk) classes and I find it holds true for each of them.  The higher the agi the less I see red text.

I'm happy with that.

"im one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another.

I go by what my char does IN GAME. "

Ok we went over this on the old board, but let's do it again ONE MORE TIME!! A "parse" is simply going through your LOGFILE.  Your LOGFILE is just a text version of what your CHAT WINDOW IS!  Now since the logfile has the exact samething that your chat window has there is no error there.  Since a parser just goes through and pulls the data out the only "error" from parsing is if the parser is bugged or you give it the wrong information / draw the wrong conclussions.

Think about it like this.  If you take a book and flip through it fast you have SOME idea what was in the book, some idea of the order some idea of the numbers, etc.  Now I hand you that book and tell you to go through it page by page, as slow as you want as many times as you want.  Now which do you think is more accurate.  You think parses mean ziltch yet I'm willing to bet you've never opened your log file and actually rechecked what you thought you saw in game.  Actually hard tallied fights by hand and calculated dps.  I've done all of these things well coding some of the parsing tools I've used.

You want to go by your eyes that's great let me share a few more things that people over the years have confirmed with their eyes!

1)  Charisma boosts slow
2)  Losing yellow stamina bar slowed your attacks
3)  Harmony gives MANA REGEN
4)  Atk effects hit rate
5)  Dexterity effects hit rate
6)  Agility effects WEAPON PROCS


I can go on and on and on and every single one of them is "true" because someone's brain saw it and interpreted it.  You are happy with your character nunya and I'm happy for you I really am, but I have grown so sick and tired of your "brain" and your "opinion" being used to counter FACTS from in game tests, logs, parses, etc.  You play your char you do your thing, but if someone asks XXX and YYY has been PROVEN time and time again by people spending countless time, please don't just dismiss it because YOUR brain THOUGHT it saw ZZZ.  

Seriously if you "think" you see something just open your log file and give it a look.  All you are doing is re-reading something you saw all at once.  Take out a little piece of paper and do some tally'n.  Most won't and they don't have to, but if you are going to argue dozens of hours of controlled testing with "feelings and beliefs" then I'll save my time from putting up parses and I'll just go "well I saw that you are wrong" and be done with it.

Cop is right - AGI has VERY little impact on tanking ability.  The chart that he posted showing the AC jump when AGI goes from <75 to over 75 was from Kaitlin's (sp?) old warrior site - the data was either her's or Ruatha - two stalwarts of the old school warrior sommunity form back when the best EQ warrior boards were on the stratics web site (am I dating myself?? ;) ).  

The data from that experiment cleary showed that there is an AC jump when you go over 75 AGI...but there is no known sudden jump for any other value of AGI.  Personally, I look at it as a penalty for having AGI UNDER 75....not a bonus for over....but that is just semantics.
:)

Eyeballing effectiveness of things that you change on your character is fine....if it makes YOU happy.  BUt IMHO if you are ever going to speak up and make an assertion about something, you either need to parse your results, or not bother posting.

Anything less and you are committing the sin of muddlefication: spreading your ignorance is not a good way to create a knowledgable player base!!

I've been playing EQ (and reading the web forums for the melee classes) since release.  I consider myself very knowledgable when it comes to things that I have seen the data on...things that I know to be true because I have seen the real (scientific, if you will) evidence.

I have seen evidence that AGI has a very small effect on AC.  Monks get a higher return on their AGI "investment" than any other class...this MAY apply to BLs - I have never seen the data on BLs.

I have seen parses (many parses...) testing the effectiveness of AGI on tanking ability.  The Shaman's crucible did testing...the warrior community did testing...the SKs and Paladins did testing.  I have never seen any evidence presented that shows AGI having more than a very minor role in tanking ability...VERY minor.

AC, on the other hand, has been proven to have a very viable (and visable, via parsing) effect on tanking ability.  Yes, there is evidence that there are 'soft caps' were AC increases prove less effective, but these soft caps are going to be pretty much out of the reach of a BL, accept in the case of a BL tanking in the Old World (guk, SolB, etc) - where the soft cap is around ~900 AC.  In all other cases, from Kunark through POP, the evidence points to the soft cap (which is probably tied to MoB ATK rating) as being 1050AC or higher.

What does the AC evidence mean?  IMO it means that a BL (or any other class that is going to tank) should put their gear efforts into things that they KNOW will provide a return for their investment.

If your AGI is consistently over 75, its high enough.  Sure...more is better, but never at the expense of AC or HP...or stats that have been shown to have a statistical impact on the game (AGI, STR and STA...even WIS to improve your mana pool).

If you want to tank better, raise your AC.

One more point.  Somebody mentioned the using items with +block and +dodge mods one them.  Some of the paladins over at Paladins of Norrath did some great parsing tests of the effectiveness of such items.  There was such a tiny improvement in the overall effectiveness of tanking ability that it was very, very close to being statiscally insignificant...even with very large data sources.  the +mod effects on items are practically useless.

I apologize if I sound arrogant...or if I sound rude.  My posts are never meant to be that way...ever.  But I DO have a serious problem with people spreading bad inforamtion ont he EQ web forums...bad information leads to bad decisions....and it CAN lead to bad players.  

I never want to see people who take the time to go out and visit the EQ boards become LESS informed for their efforts!
:)

Quote+ agility = damage avoidance the higher it is the less often you get hit

+ agility = higher AC think the formula for a warrior was 3 agi = 1 ac

if your base Agi was 75 and you got armor and buffs which put you to 255 agi, thats 180 agi boost. Divide this by 3 gives you a total of 60ac. So 1 point in agi really does not do anything. It's when you increase the total to a higher degree does it actually make a difference. From 75 agi to 200 agi is about 42 ac. Who here wouldn't want 42 or 60 more ac?

That's from the other forum under the same topic.  

QuoteAC, on the other hand, has been proven to have a very viable (and visable, via parsing) effect on tanking ability

I stand by what I have already said, higher agi equates to higher ac which means I get hit less thus I see less lines of red text when fighting a mob.  When using a spell like Frenzy that adds a +25 it's a larger jump and it's more noticeable because it's a larger increase in the plus to ac as a result in the addition to agi.

AC doesnt mean you get hit less it means you have a better chance to mitigate the hit so you will not be hit for max.

Your Dodge Block, Rip, thats where the misses come from.

Well said Aggy.

bad statistics and wishful thinking are the source of 95% of all the monkey tales going around in EQ (the remaining 5% being pranks that grew out of proportion)

It is always possible that AGI effect has had an upgrade, after all i found the same for STR just weeks ago. But i found it by experimentation thru rigorous parsing. If you plan to go against the accepted knowledge (knowledge that itself was obtained thru experiment and analysis of data) then you'd better make sure you have solid data to go on.

Right now, the accepted knowledge, obtained thru parsing, is that the effects of AGI are minimal. Saying you feel it does make a difference cuts no mustard, experimental evidence is the only grounds you can have to claim the contrary. The latest AGI parse i've seen dates back about half a year ago and showed no change whatsoever. Without experimental evidence you have simply have no claim, and, as Aggy said, you are merely spreading disinformation. Not to mention its an insult to all the people who did the hard work of performed those parses. Their intent, as is mine, is to help the general EQ populace by providing the information that SOE just won't give.

/hugs

actually

your dodge block riposte is where they you dodge you block you riposte messages come from...

most of the misses are from mob hit rating vs your defense rating...

its something that could be parsed out rather easily...

find a mob with a set level that you out regen vs its dps, and let it wack on you for a while...i would do a from the front and from the back...


otherwise we would get hit 100% of the time when mobs are beating on us in the back, and they sometimes still miss...

Quote from: Thrashum Gud

I stand by what I have already said, higher agi equates to higher ac which means I get hit less thus I see less lines of red text when fighting a mob.  When using a spell like Frenzy that adds a +25 it's a larger jump and it's more noticeable because it's a larger increase in the plus to ac as a result in the addition to agi.

I hate to do this, but I can't resist the temptation...

25 AGI at 1 AC per 3 AGI = 8 AC

If you normally run @ 1000 AC, tht is a gain of 8 tenths of one percent in your AC.

Even if that meant you got hit 1% less frequently (which it doesn't, since AC is a combination of both mitigation and avoidance), a difference of less than 1% would be impossible to accurately notice by a human observer...even a highly trained observer could not differentiate between a 1% variance by observation alone: they would need to parse it to see the difference.

Impossible, Thrash...you are seeing the difference becasue you WANT to see the difference.
:)

Quote from: Nunyabizim one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another

Translation: I ignore all parses as justification for building my character around the AGI stat.

NO,
AGI works for me, be it my head or not is my problem.

When it comes right down to it you can parse parse parse til your eyes fall out and its not going to prove squat overall.

The ONLY things that have a hard percentage of anything are your AAs plain and simple.

RNG>All

ALL stats such as AC/AGI/Dex/Str etc give just a little bit better chance to mitigate/miss/proc/average hit and so on.

Your AGI/Dex/Str/Sta/Wis are all going to be maxed as you lvl anyway so arguing about what it does or doesnt do is rather pointless.

Best is to get as many HPs and AAs as you can manage those are the ONLY 2 things that really matter in the long run.

currently im sitting at all stats maxed at 305 (buffed) with 7687Hps (raid buffed) 306AAs spent with 30 saved up and only 1282 AC.
I tank just fine, dont seem to be in my head either unless somehow its a group/guild illusion, but at least all of us having the same drug trip :)

Either way believe whatever you wish.
I know back when i was around 60 or so AGI was just as good of an improvment for me as anything else i did.
I noticed a nice little improvement between 150sih to 255 AGI before i had any AAs.
Thats all that mattered to me.

I have never seen any evidence presented that shows AGI having more than a very minor role in tanking ability...VERY minor.

Yeah, and that can be said about EVERY other stat bar none, so whats your point?

100AC means VERY little.
100HP means VERY little.
100Dex means VERY little.
etc

If your looking for the magic bullet its in your AAs.

The only thing that really means jack is CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE

Rest of it is just a very small percentage that all adds up no more no less.

Since i happen to be an avoidance class I bumped my avoidance as high as possible go figure.

100 AC means way more then 100AGI when you're below the mob's "ac soft cap", which you'll usually be unless you're fighting exclusively in Lower Guk or SolB
100 HPs means way more then 100AGI unless you are tanking mobs that do over a 100 dps exclusively. As an added benefit, that 100HPs will help you survive AEs for which AGI does nothing. Bonus bonus is that it only takes 2 or 3 pieces of gear tops to add 100HP, whereas adding 100AGI requires an upgrade of almost every piece of equipment. Not everyone has access to PoTime with its +25 to AGI gear you know.
100 STR means wayyyy more then 100AGI. If you're soloing, the dps gain from 100 STR will reduce fight time by such an amount that the damage reduction is more then you get from 100 AGI. If you are raiding or in an exp group but not tanking, you'll still get your benefit from 100 STR but your 100AGI is worth less then 100 CHA. If you happen to be one of the two BSTs that are tanking for exp groups 100% of the time, 100AGI may give you more then 100STR, but then again, so will 100 raw AC.
100 DEX is worth less then 100AGI until you get some proccing weapons and the CF skill. When you get those, DEX suddenly starts increasing your dps, see STR for how this ends.

Need i go on? the list goes on, i havent even touched STA, resists, wisdom, focus effect etc yet.

this quote is taken from one of your posts in another thread in this forum

Quoteand it certainly doesnt hurt to max your AGI regardless what all the neysayer/parse fanatics say.

What you just don't seem to get is that we naysayers/parsers say is that it doesnt hurt to max your AGI as long as you dont sacrifice any other stat.
It is far easier to upgrade your other stats. Really Nunya, i've seen you posting advice to lvl30- player clad in acrylia studded leather to work on his AGI and that's just insane. The guy/girl had room in his gear for 300+ worn AC.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not to make wild claims based on your feelings and then treating your feelings as the one and only truth when there are several reports based on experimental data (i.e. parses) that say the contrary. I might as well say that my feelings tell me that 2+2=5 and all those pocket calculators must be wrong.
Until you are willing to provide the experimental evidence that supports your feelings by yourself, you have no right to tell the parsers that they are wrong and you should refrain from giving people advice based on nothing more then your feelings. The only thing you're accomplishing is confusing the less experienced players that visit these boards and read contradicting posts.

100 HPs means way more then 100AGI

Thats bullshit and you know it, prove it.

Prove to me that 100AGI could not possibly EVER cause a mob to miss you at least ONCE per fight, or even ONCE per 10 fights if the Mob missed you for 1000Hps.
You cant and you perfectly well know it.

Of course neither can I prove the opposite.
RNG>All

AC means very little once your past about 1200AC for a leather wearing class, getting missed "possibly" for just ONE 500-1000 whack every other fight is easily as good as what 100AC would theoretically mitigate.
which is very little

and i did NOT tell that person to forgo everything else in favor of AGI, thats what you want to hear, in other words ITS IN YOUR HEAD.

I mearly said "it certainly doesnt hurt to max your AGI"
Thats one of the things I worked on and in doing so did'nt sacrafice anything that i know of other than Wis, but as a Beast you either go for Wis or go for everything else at lower lvl, you pretty much have to sacrafice damn near everything to get high Wis not just AGI.

Which to me means dont go out of your way to stay away from it and concentrate solely on AC or Wis.
Weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each.
I certainly would not give up some nice +25AC wrist item just to try and add +5 AGI dont be ridiculous.

But on the flip side if i had a bracer with say 15AC and 50Hps and could get a bracer with 10AC 15AGI & 50+Hps(i would only be giving up 2ac) id go for it faster than you could parse a Orc pawn fight with a lvl 65.


All this squibiling is rather ridiculous as you well know the vast majority of good Beastlord gear is going to have decent AGI on it anyway, you basically cant help but get pretty good AGI as you upgrade.

All im saying is that I BELIEVE AGI has a bit more value to it than most of you here.
you guys just need to get over it and move on, thats simply my opinion.

Even your or whomevers parses basically so called proved that just adding 20 or so AGI from 180 to 200 gave like a 3% improvement in avoiding hits, thats hardly what i call worthless.


What you just don't seem to get is that we naysayers/parsers say is that it doesnt hurt to max your AGI as long as you dont sacrifice any other stat.

This is about what ive been saying for about a year and 1/2.
I figure at some point it would sink in but maybe not.
considering your AGI is going to go up wether you like it or not seems a bit odd to sit here and argue over it.

Hee hee, funny thread .. reminds me of some explanations of how belief in magic started ages ago. Humans see patterns where there are none, that's how our brains work, and thus any feelings are just that, feelings. If sacrificing a chicken resulted in it raining next day, and if applying agi gear made somebody survive tanking something they should not have been able to tank, we don't think in terms of weather or random number generator. Nah, it's magic!

Chicken = rain, AGI = tanking, and any contradictions are because the ritual was done wrong, gods were angry, healers were lazy or mob was lucky.  :roll:

well ive always said RNG>all.

Parses especially the so called "Longer more accurite" ones are pathetically skewed for that reason alone.

Rarely do most fights go for more than a Min or so, hell even major Eplane Gods your rarely up there at his heals whacking away the whole fight non stop. your in and out or healing, buffing, manuvering, etc etc.

So the vast majority of real fights are wildly dependant on the RNG for what you do or dont do, wether you get the shyte beat outa ya or hardly a scratch.

All the parsing the world is really going to tell you very very little about anything other than theoretical DPS between various weapons.

Thats about the only parsing i pay any attention to at all, rest of it is just about meaningless. smoke and mirrors and in the end may prove some theorectical minute percentage that really dont mean squat.

RNG>All

Lol, so now centuries of mathematics are wrong, Nunya? Remember what i said about 2+2=5 and all pocket calculators are wrong

Your last post shows you really haven't got the faintest clue about random behaviour and statistical variance.  

The variance in the average of a random number like hitratio decreases with the square root of the sample size. Its that simple. When you are watching that chat bar to see the lines of hits and misses go by you are watching maybe 10 lines. Your variance: ~30%. When i am parsing my log files im watching 10000 lines. My variance is ~1%. And still you are able to see a few percent decrease in the average better then i can? Can i see your diploma from the Jedi Knight Academy, cuz you must have the senses of a Jedi Knight.

Quote100 HPs means way more then 100AGI

Thats bullshit and you know it, prove it.

Wrong. The need for proof lies in your corner. I don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's already been proven that the effects of AGI are minimal. You are the one saying otherwise, so you are the one that has to provide the proof that says the old parses are out of date.
But hey, im not one pass up this opportunity.
100 AGI decreases your damage taken by 3% at best, as shown by parses. In a one minute fight against a mob doing 50 dps that means a difference of 90 HPs.

Now its your turn. Prove that AGI gives more benefit then that 3%. Until you do, shut up.

100 AGI decreases your damage taken by 3% at best, as shown by parses. In a one minute fight against a mob doing 50 dps that means a difference of 90 HPs.

LOL i rest my case, thank you for proving my point for me.

Not to mention the 3% your refering to was from approx 20AGI not 100, so ga head bump that up just a tad.
and even rather easy Mobs like the Guardians in HOH if i remember do something like 90+DPS, so sounds to me like 100AGI beats the livin hell outa a measily 100Hps.  8)  especially as you go up agaisnt Mobs doing more than 50DPS which is what btw? a RAT in POI? LOL

also im not "watching the chat lines" as you say, im looking at my HPs and how much i need to be healed during a fight.

Between my wife and I we both have been playing since about 2 months after EQ launched so many many MANY hours i think my IN GAME exp of 100s and 100s of hours beats the snot outa your few 1000 lines.

I dont mull over minutia, all i care about is how many times do i need to be healed. My wife has noticed a difference so have I, so thats all we need.

RNG>ALL  then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.

AGI is no more useless especially to avoidance based char than any other stat is.
I take all i can get it all adds up.
Currently im pegged except for the +15 Avoidance for the Dumuls Tunic.
Other than that im avoiding damage as much as im ever going to do and it works for me.
305 AGI, CA3, LR5, +8% to dodge, +5% to Block

The last parse on the effect of agility was done less then a year ago on the old beastlord board and showed less then 3% damage reduction. You know this, you've seen it, you entered the discussion as well so dont talk crap about 3% per 20 AGI

How would you know what dps a mob doing Nunya? you dont parse after all. A mob damage output of 50 dps is a good average for the tanking beastlord. So when 100 AGI makes a difference of 90 damage on average, and taking into account the other 2 benefits of pure hps which i mentioned earlier but you seem to have either forgotten or are neglecting to mention on purpose, I'd have to say that HPs >> AGI.
Ahh, but i forget, you dont know what an average is. You think that every BST out there does the same thing as you do, tank tier3+ mobs 100% of the time

How much you need to be healed != effect of agility. AA skills != effect of agility. Hitting lvl 62 and getting the new pet for instance will reduce your damage taken far more then agility or any single AA skill ever will, simply becauses the pet's stuns land more often. Get your causes-and-effects staright. You cannot get any idea about a 3% improvement in avoidance from watching the amount of heals you need, the effect simply isnt big enough to be noticed underneath the statistical scatter. The only way to know your avoidance is to actually count (=parse) the number of times the mob misses on a swing and average over 1000's of swings. Mathematics beats "in-game experience" every time.

If you haven't learned all this by now after 4 years of playing EQ then there's no hope for you. You're making a fool of yourself and the BST community as well.
Really, the BST boards are the only board where this issue is even discussed. When the question of AGI comes up on any other class board the answer is always a resolute 'no, AGI does very little for you'. Even the monk community, who have better avoidance then we will tell you to focus on your other stats first. They know this because they've all parsed the effect of AGI a long time ago. Do it yourself, subscribe to every class board and ask the question. You're alone in this world Nunya.

EQ is not religion. The statements "God exists" or "God created the world" are not verifiable, and so the debate can go on philosophically ad infinitum if your inclined to do so. The effect of AGI *is* verifiable. Mathematically that is, thru parses, not thru your "in-game" experience. To deny the verified effects based on your belief of the contrary, to bash/outright deny all the parses of AGI ever done based on your belief, and then to preach your belief at every opportunity is nothing less then religious fanaticism. Yes, the effect of AGI in the game called EQ is not exactly a world threathening issue like real life fanaticism, but it is fanaticism nevertheless, just tuned down by a few orders of magnitude. You have no facts, are unwilling to obtain them yourself and dismiss the facts obtained by orders.

This is the fact about agility, obtained thru hard work by dozens of people rather then you and your wife's 'in-game experience': The effect of agility does not justify sacrificing other stats

Am I only one that reads a nunya post and hears/see's it being done by the guy from 12 angry men? "YOU CAN'T PROVE!!" hehe hrmmm wonder which of the 12 angry men that'd make me....

Ohh yes Tastian, oh yes. Wouldn't realized it myself but now that ye point it out the resemblance is striking.  8)

The last parse on the effect of agility was done less then a year ago on the old beastlord board and showed less then 3% damage reduction. You know this, you've seen it, you entered the discussion as well so dont talk crap about 3% per 20 AGI


Yep thats the one im refering to, and the 3% came from 190ish AGI to littl eover 200AGI, his whole parse was to just try and see if breaking the 200 AGI mark was some sort of barrier like breaking the 75AGI point was, not from 100AGI to over 200.

How much you need to be healed != effect of agility. AA skills != effect of agility. Hitting lvl 62 and getting the new pet for instance will reduce your damage taken far more then agility or any single AA skill ever will, simply becauses the pet's stuns land more often. Get your causes-and-effects staright

learn to read, been saying that all along, but as usual like most everyone else you read into my post exactly what YOU want to hear, and just completely skip over what im actually saying LOL.
OH and i cant remember the last time my Pet stunned anything since hardly anything ive fought in months can be stunned by my pets proc, cant stun a Mob over level 61, Im not sure if there are any lvl 61 Mobs in the Eplanes but i dont recall any so ya get yer Causes-and-effects "staright".
I and my wife both noticed a nice little improvement back when i was about lvl 62ish when i bumped my AGI from in teh 150s up to 255, simple as that, no magic bullet, no amazing difference, not all of a sudden tanking 5X better, just simply a nice little improvement, all you guys just need to get over that fact.

read this Slllooowwly.

RNG>ALL then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.

How would you know what dps a mob doing Nunya? you dont parse after all
actually ive parsed quite a bit, but only DPS between various weapons which is all parses are good for.
Ive seen many Mobs in tier 1&2 doing far more than 50DPS but not on me since I avoid alot of hits, but my wife a lvl 65 druid with just over 6K hps AGI around 180 ive seen a Mob do well over 150+DPS on her before she got CA3/LR5 she gets hammered on occaision.  you do realize i assume that just like your DPS the Mobs DPS that you parse is somewhat governed by how much you dodge/block/reposte/get missed etc...therefore a Mob that might do 50DPS on me might do 150+DPS on a Wizard, so once again your little parse is skewed.


This is the fact about agility, obtained thru hard work by dozens of people rather then you and your wife's 'in-game experience': The effect of agility does not justify sacrificing other stats

Most of it heavily skewed..and not once ever have i said to sacrafice all other stats in order to get just your AGI up.
Just simply to consider it as you do all others, no more no less.
and the parses done here prove that AGI does have a reasonably good effect, so your proving my point for me once again.

None of the stats str/sta/dex/agi have any huge effect over anything.

Should i even bother replying to your twisted logic again? Oh well

QuoteYep thats the one im refering to, and the 3% came from 190ish AGI to littl eover 200AGI, his whole parse was to just try and see if breaking the 200 AGI mark was some sort of barrier like breaking the 75AGI point was, not from 100AGI to over 200.

No it isnt, that parse was totally faulty and you know cuz i burned it to the ground when it was first posted. The only thing that parse proved  was that a sample size of 1000 swings isnt even close enough to eliminate the statistical variance to such a degree that the effect of AGI. That 3% increase was caused by an increase in riposte rate of a factor 2 and an increase in dodge rate of 50%. These skills arent affected by any stat. The one thing that should have gone up, the miss rate, actually went down by 5%. Now if you want to believe that this is the effect of agility go right ahead.
Get it thru your thick head: if a sample size of 1000 swings isnt even enough to eliminate the statistical variance, then you have no chance in **** to 'feel' the change in-game. It literally takes 10000s of swings to eliminate the statistical to such a degree that you can even see the effect of AGI.

The parse i'm referring to was done later, and it was a proper one, testing AGI at values ~100, 150, 200. Samplesizes were several k swings per parse, and even then the best answer you could give was "maybe a few percent per 100 AGI"

Now for the last time: believe whatever want but don't preach your belief until *you* can provide the hard evidence to back that belief up. It's you vs the entire EQ community. Im sick and tired of you insulting all the hard work that has been done, twisting arguments with your reverse logic,
the arrogance of presuming that your 'in-game experience' is worth more then the combined knowledge of the rest of the community, the craziness of saying that parsing avoidance is skewed but your perceptions of the RNG are not.

Mods, please lock this thread, i don't want to hear another word.

well its a parse i didnt see then.

anyway, as ive been saying all along this is what I believe PERIOD, I and my wife both noticed a nice little improvement, no more no less.
Im entitled to my opinion just as you are yours. and NO i dont have to prove anything, its MY opinion.
Hell there what roughly 4 Billion people on a planet of just over 6 Billion that believe in some totally ficticious BS called Religion be it Christian Muslim etc. they cant prove a single thing im one of the 2 Billion that thinks they are crazy yet I dont go around with a chip on my shoulder saying "prove it Biatch" or get the F*** outa my face and STFU
I simply let it be, believe what you wish

Mods, please lock this thread, i don't want to hear another word.

LOL sorry just because im maybe the only one hear that doesnt bow to your statisical crap, no need to throw a lil tandrum you need to get over yourself.
If you dont want to see another word then simply dont open the thread your problem is solved.

Everyone else can believe AGI has so very little effect that even adding 200+ AGI is of zero value, thats great.
If thats the case then maybe Doist should complain to the developers for adding in a completely useless placebo stat & Buffs or ask them since they wrote the program what if any effect AGI is "supposed" to have according to them.
If the developers chim in & say Oh yeah you know AGI, well it serves no purpose whatsoever once its over 75 we just needed to fill up a hole to make it look good sorry about the confusion. then I would STFU and never say another word.
I mearly stated MY opinion, you just simply need to get over it.
Im not telling anyone to do anything other than I think its a bit more usefull then everyone else seems to believe.

I really dont care what most of the parse ive seen supposedly show.

I have yet to see one that isnt skewed to the point of making them useless.
You can crunch all your numbers all you like so far you have shown me ziltch.

Why was this moved to the aa section? Rants. maybe. AA?  /boggle

Facts:

The monks parsed AGI.
The warriors parsed AGI.
The paladins parsed AGI.
The rangers parsed AGI.
The rogues parsed AGI.
The shamans parsed AGI.
One of your fellow beastlords parsed AGI.
The conclusion was always the same: the effect of AGI does not justify sacrifing any other stats for.

Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. Im telling you now as i've been telling you all along they do exist. To dismiss those results based on your belief is pure religious fanaticism and to deny the results when you cannot even be bothered to do some research yourself and ask around on other boards is an insult to everyone who actually worked to obtain their conclusions on the effect of AGI

Go preach your beliefs on the warrior or monk boards. Im sure you'll find they're sooooooo much tolerant to your ideas there.

Ganked from here. (http://www.magelo.com/forum_flat.html?mess_num=16087)

This formula may be a few AC off at the end game, maybe 1-2 points. also doesn't have the extra 50 points of stats from PoP.  Just to note, this is just to disprove the 3agi=1AC thing, which is wrong, its much more complicated than that.  just like 1 stam = X hps is also invalid.

This is purely to prove nunya wrong on the 180agi to 200 leap being some magical 3% boost.  At level 65, Avoidance AC at 180 Agi is 515.  Avoidance AC at 201 Agi is 519.  The difference in those 21 points of Agi is 4 points of *Displayed* AC.


anyway, enjoy:

Quote
AC = (Avoidance + Mitigation) * (1000 / 847)

Now, Mitigation, if you're a non-monk Melee class is:
(Raw AC From Buffs / 4) + (Defense/ 3) + (Raw AC From Equipment * 4 / 3)

And if you're a caster,
(Raw AC From Buffs / 3) + (Defense/ 2) + (Raw AC From Equipment + 1)

Avoidance = the absolute value of (AGIFactor + Defense * 16 / 9)

where AF = Agility Factor, DEF = Defense Score

Agility factor is determined by your Agility rating and your Level, as follows:

**PLEASE NOTE, AGIFactor is not your straight AGI. AGIFactor comes from a really big chart. You need to know your level and Agility. Note, level doesn't come into play until 75 AGI.

If your level is >= 40 Then your LevelFactor is 4
If your level is 20-39 Then your LevelFactor is 3
If your level is 7 - 19 Then your LevelFactor is 2
If your level < 7 Then your LevelFactor is 1

If your AGI is
*AGI 1
then your AGIFactor is -24
*AGI 2, 3
then your AGIFactor is -23
*AGI 4
then your AGIFactor is -22
*AGI 5, 6
then your AGIFactor is -21
*AGI 7, 8
then your AGIFactor is -20
*AGI 9
then your AGIFactor is -19
*AGI 10, 11
then your AGIFactor is -18
*AGI 12
then your AGIFactor is -17
*AGI 13, 14
then your AGIFactor is -16
*AGI 15, 16
then your AGIFactor is -15
*AGI 17
then your AGIFactor is -14
*AGI 18, 19
then your AGIFactor is -13
*AGI 20
then your AGIFactor is -12
*AGI 21, 22
then your AGIFactor is -11
*AGI 23, 24
then your AGIFactor is -10
*AGI 25
then your AGIFactor is -9
*AGI 26, 27
then your AGIFactor is -8
*AGI 28
then your AGIFactor is -7
*AGI 29, 30
then your AGIFactor is -6
*AGI 31, 32
then your AGIFactor is -5
*AGI 33
then your AGIFactor is -4
*AGI 34, 35
then your AGIFactor is -3
*AGI 36
then your AGIFactor is -2
*AGI 37, 38
then your AGIFactor is -1
*AGI 39 To 65
then your AGIFactor is 0
*AGI 66 To 70
then your AGIFactor is 1
*AGI 71 To 74
then your AGIFactor is 5
*AGI 75
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 39
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 33
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 23
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 9
*AGI 76 To 79
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 40
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 33
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 23
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 10
*AGI 80
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 41
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 34
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 24
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 11
*AGI 81 To 85
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 42
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 35
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 25
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 12
*AGI 86 To 90
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 42
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 36
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 26
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 12
*AGI 91 To 95
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 43
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 36
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 26
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 13
*AGI 96 To 99
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 44
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 37
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 27
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 14
*AGI 100
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 45
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 38
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 28
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 15
*AGI 101 To 105
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 45
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 39
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 29
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 15
*AGI 106 To 110
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 46
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 39
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 29
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 16
*AGI 111 To 115
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 47
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 40
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 30
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 17
*AGI 116 To 119
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 47
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 41
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 31
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 17
*AGI 120
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 48
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 42
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 32
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 18
*AGI 121 To 125
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 49
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 42
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 32
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 19
*AGI 126 To 135
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 50
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 43
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 33
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 20
*AGI 136 To 145
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 51
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 44
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 34
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 21
*AGI 146 To 155
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 52
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 45
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 35
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 22
*AGI 156 To 165
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 53
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 46
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 36
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 23
*AGI 166 To 175
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 54
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 47
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 37
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 24
*AGI 176 To 185
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 55
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 48
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 38
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 25
*AGI 186 To 195
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 56
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 49
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 39
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 26
*AGI 196 To 205
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 57
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 50
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 40
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 27
*AGI 206 To 215
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 58
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 51
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 41
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 28
*AGI 216 To 225
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 59
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 52
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 42
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 29
*AGI 226 To 235
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 60
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 53
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 43
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 30
*AGI 236 To 245
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 61
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 54
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 44
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 31
*AGI 246 To 255
And your LevelFactor is 4 Then then your AGIFactor is 62
And your LevelFactor is 3 Then then your AGIFactor is 55
And your LevelFactor is 2 Then then your AGIFactor is 45
And your LevelFactor is 1 Then then your AGIFactor is 32

LOL...../Yawn

This is purely to prove nunya wrong on the 180agi to 200 leap being some magical 3% boost.

Not proving me anything, wasnt me that did any parse saying either way was someone else here. I mearly went with that since all you folks got parse on the brain.

They dont mean squat to me.

All i need is to just play the game, your all they guys with your undies in a wad over some useless parse not me.

Oh and Woot my "AGIFactor" is 67 woohoo, and that proves what exactly?
Im thinking just like all parses and useless number crunching the final answer is always ZERO.
Means squat to me.
My AGI is 305 I tank rather well, not solely because my AGI is 305, actually that has the absolute least to do with it as ive been fruitlessly saying to you imbaciles.
I tank well because im lvl 65, then because i have ALL my Defensive AAs maxed, then because i have well over 7500Hps, then as ive been saying all along having my AGI maxed has seemed to help.

You guys are hilarious.

The warriors parsed AGI.
The paladins parsed AGI.
The rangers parsed AGI.
The rogues parsed AGI.
The shamans parsed AGI.

ALL of these completely and utterly useless to a leather wearing Beastlord.

The other 2? worthlessly skewed.

Once again, means nada to me bud....maybe you should like pour yourself a nice glass of wine and just chill.
Your never changing my mind regardless how much manure you spew forth.
AGI helps a little<----That means a LITTLE, just like all stats, a LITTLE.

a small amount, a bit, a tad, any of these words ringing a bell to you at all?....Of course not, as all of you have for well over a year now, you will simply glaze over everything im saying and key on one sentence to take out of context and misinterpet.
LOL entertain me with whatever your going to misinterpet next.
I cant wait.

You're a stubborn fool in denial. Nothing more.

Quote from: Nunyabizso ya get yer Causes-and-effects "staright".

I and my wife both noticed a nice little improvement back when i was about lvl 62ish when i bumped my AGI from in teh 150s up to 255, simple as that, no magic bullet, no amazing difference, not all of a sudden tanking 5X better, just simply a nice little improvement, all you guys just need to get over that fact.

Firstly, I've tended to notice that the first person in an argument to pick apart anothers grammar/spelling is desperately looking for something to make their point seem more valid than it is.

Secondly, you managed to get your agi from the 150s to 255 with no substantial changes in ac or hp (those stats that have a proven affect on tanking ability)?  That is the only way that you would have a leg to stand on in this debate.  Noone here is saying that agi is completely useless, just that it is quite possibly the least effective stat in the game, and is not worth sacrificing anything for.

and ive never once said to "sacrafice" any other stat in favor of AGI have I?
Ive said IF you can, to try and max your AGI because it does (IMO) help.

All of you are the ones flinging the BS not me, im just sitting back and enjoying the show of one idiot after the other trying to disprove something that they have misinterpeted. which technically is disproving himself LOL

As ive also said fruitlessly since apparently im about the only one that either can read or at least comprehend what i read that in general with what a Beastlord has to work with gear wise your AGI is going to go up decently as you upgrade anyway as long as you dont actively avoid it.
which is basically what all of you are saying is to actively avoid it like the plague.
I find that advise personally to be misleading

Firstly, I've tended to notice that the first person in an argument to pick apart anothers grammar/spelling is desperately looking for something to make their point seem more valid than it is.

LOL secondly ive notced the first person to bring that up is REALLY the one with ziltch to say thats worth saying LOL.

you managed to get your agi from the 150s to 255 with no substantial changes in ac or hp

Yeah for the most part both AC & HP went up a little bit its Wis that i personally sacraficed a bit to get my AGI up.
But other than the very best high end gear in Eplanes I defy anyone to try and up thier AC/HP and WIS at teh same time its virtually impossible.
BUT no problem to up your AGI with AC/HP gear.

But when i did that this was way before LDON with AUGs you can pick and choose and up any freaking stat you want with ease.
so once again this arguement as ive said about 10x now is ignorant.

you can easily up your AC/HPs AND AGI then up your WIS with AUGS with no problem whatsoever.

You think AGI is completely useless thats your opinion and thats fine.

I just happen to believe it does help a little, not exactly sure why that is such a crime with you freaks of nature.

If AGI is completely and utterly worthless, does absolutely nothing once your over 75.
then why is there not some uproar of sorts from the different communities demmanding something to be done about such a useless stat just taking up space and taking up buff slots.
Since it obviously must be bugged if that were the case.

That would also be kind of a slap in the face to the Beastlords since virtually all of our highest end gear has high AGI on it.
Our very best Tunic that very few Beast will ever see that have fought and clawed thier way to POT spending untold hours and hours playing to get there, and whats on it?

+30AGI +8%Block +15Avoidance LOL How dare they.
If i were all you guys under the spell of all these grand parses that firmly believe AGI is the debil I would raise hell.

Meanwhile im just happy as can be with ALL my avoidance as high as i can possibly get it with CA3/LR5/+8%dodge/+5%Block/305AGI.
and i would just shyte and fall in it if i got that Tunic, which is all i need to be completely maxed as high as i can possibly be in Avoidance gear/AAs,
You see im not the one with the problem here, im happy as a pig in shyte
about the performance of my char and the choices ive made to get him here.
Its you guys crying in yer beer not I

just that it is quite possibly the least effective stat in the game, and is not worth sacrificing anything for.

Hmmm yet somehow for some odd reason YOUR AGI is the second highest stat you have on YOUR char. LOL
How can that be?
I guess you must have "sacraficed" something to get it there eh?

Well actually I will gladdly point out to you that you have done just about exactly what i did.
You will notice your AC & HPs are pretty decent, when you actively try and raise your AC/HPs AGI naturally follows. DOH.

Your Wis is good because your starting to get a few pieces of Eplane gear.
get a grip people.

QuoteRight now, the accepted knowledge, obtained thru parsing, is that the effects of AGI are minimal. Saying you feel it does make a difference cuts no mustard, experimental evidence is the only grounds you can have to claim the contrary. The latest AGI parse i've seen dates back about half a year ago and showed no change whatsoever. Without experimental evidence you have simply have no claim, and, as Aggy said, you are merely spreading disinformation. Not to mention its an insult to all the people who did the hard work of performed those parses. Their intent, as is mine, is to help the general EQ populace by providing the information that SOE just won't give

Putting aside the rather pointless personal attacks I have to wonder how worthless agi is when you do in fact clearly gain ac from it.  SOE maintains the following (taken friom the Ruins of Kumark Prima Guide:

"Agility helps determine your defensive abilities, it affects how often you are hit, and to a lesser degree how much damage you take.  The higher your agility the less likely you are to be hit by melee combat.  It also affects how quickly you learn some defenseive skills."

This is from the people that actually made the game, I would think they knew best how their own progam works.

QuoteThe warriors parsed AGI.
The paladins parsed AGI.
The rangers parsed AGI.
The rogues parsed AGI.
The shamans parsed AGI.

ALL of these completely and utterly useless to a leather wearing Beastlord.

Shows how much you really know about avoidance and mitigation. The type of armor you wear has no bearing whatsoever on avoidance, since worn AC is mitigation AC. Avoidance AC is determined by your defense skill and AGI adds a fraction. If you followed Xuthaz post you'd have seen that AGI is responsible for adding less then 10% total to avoidance AC. An increase in AGI of 100 pts adds 2.5% to avoidance AC. Gosh does that number sound familiar? Its about the same number that the parses are showing. Could it possibly be that avoidance actually follows the same trend as avoidance AC? /shock

All those parses are relevant. The difference in Defense skill between the classes doesn't suddenly make them invalid. If even the monks don't find a significant effect of AGI, then BSTs won't either.

Paladins, warriors and rogues all have a higher cap in the Defense skill then beastlords btw. A mob will miss them more often. The only reason our total avoidance is higher is because we have the block skill instead of parry. But AGI has no bearing on block either, just the miss rate of mobs

Quoteand ive never once said to "sacrafice" any other stat in favor of AGI have I?

Backing down now Nuny? How disappointing
Every time you deny the results of the parses you are saying exactly this, you've advised people to work on their AGI dozens of times, without mentioning once that they'd get much greater benefits from other stats. By doing so, you are potentially harming these players by stunting the growth of their characters and that's why your preachings have got to stop. You are insulting the people that performed the parses and giving genuine advice based on their parse results. Your right of free speech does not include the right to make claims in public that you can't back up.
If a gossip magazine claims that 'actress A is dating porn star B' they damn well better have some photographs to back up that claim or they have a lawsuit on their hands. That principle applies here as well. The effect of AGI is a verifiable claim. Until you can provide a shred of evidence that the effect of AGI is far larger then the accepted parses say it is, which despite all your ramblings you still haven't done, you do not have to right to make your claims based on your feelings

QuoteThe effect of AGI is a verifiable claim. Until you can provide a shred of evidence that the effect of AGI is far larger then the accepted parses say it is

How exactly is this a verifiable claim?

My problem with your claim is very simple, you say your parsing and that of other players parses are accepted, has SOE ever once said that?  Have they verified that you are parsing correctly?  Have they verified you are actually looking at the right data the right way?  Have they openly stated that you are correct with the information you are presenting as facts?

I'm trying really hard to understand this, it looks like a few players are saying we have this figured out.  That's all well and good but without SOE agreeing then  how exactly is this a verifiable claim?

Now if they have acknowledged what you are saying I'll happily apologize for being wrong but I'd like to see proof of your claim vs that which Verant/SOE has released.

hehe - this thread is still alive.

Didn't Verant not to long ago say that they were looking at or did something to the avoidance of leather wearing classes?  (supposedly improving avoidance mitigation?)  

Not stating this as fact, but I thought I remember reading something to that effect.  

If that is/was the case, then it would render all of the agi parses that have been done ages ago, useless.  And therefore, the burden of proof would then be on both sides of the argument.  

Of course, this is "what I think I remember reading".  Not absolute factual and I don't have a link.  

This thread is pretty angry for the most part, and I personally don't know why.  

Agree to disagree, it happens all the time.    8)

The type of armor you wear has no bearing whatsoever on avoidance

BS, just like wearing Plate has no bearing on your Mitigation from AC to i guess eh? LOL


Backing down now Nuny? How disappointing

Show me where i EVER said to sacrafice ANYTHING in favor of just AGI and only AGI just for the sake of having high AGI and to hell with anything else. I never said any such thing its you freaks that keep misinterpeting what im saying, then trying to disprove your own BS LOL

Your a freaking nutcase.

This is from the people that actually made the game, I would think they knew best how their own progam works.

No im sorry Thrashum im afraid Copr and few other parse fanatics know much more than SOEs developers/programers do.

An increase in AGI of 100 pts adds 2.5% to avoidance AC.

I'll take it!!! and damn glad to have it especially since it cost me basically nothing to get, as ive said before just raising your AC & HPs will naturally raise your AGI as a Beastlord as long as you dont actively try to avoid it, you can look at Grymloks megelo and see that clear as bell.

Continue on with your useless drivel though, its quite entertaining.

This thread is pretty angry for the most part, and I personally don't know why.

Im sort of unclear on that myself, personally in not "angry" im actually finding the whole thing quite funny.

But like you i do sense some leather panties in a tight wad from the parse fanatics which i can only assume is brought on from hours of staring at numbers becoming obsessed it sort of like some religious fanatic obsessed with thinking 'Thier" god is THE god and all others are false and the followers are Infidels.
Hence since Copr is so obsessed with these parses(his lil God) then absolutely anything else is heresy and anyone that doesnt bow to his god is an Infidel<---that be ME.

JIIIHHAADDD you go Copr preach it.

Meanwhile im just wondering wtf is all teh rukus about :roll:

Quote from: NunyabizHmmm yet somehow for some odd reason YOUR AGI is the second highest stat you have on YOUR char. LOL
How can that be?
I guess you must have "sacraficed" something to get it there eh?

Well actually I will gladdly point out to you that you have done just about exactly what i did.
You will notice your AC & HPs are pretty decent, when you actively try and raise your AC/HPs AGI naturally follows. DOH.

Your Wis is good because your starting to get a few pieces of Eplane gear.
get a grip people.

Actually, if you look at that eplane gear I have (3 pieces), they are the reson my AGI is up there, not my Wis.  Each piece of gear has 20+ agi on it (as do my VT legs, another recent aquisition), while having roughly half that much Wis.  Frankly, it amused me the day I noticed that I capped Agi out buffed, as I have never put any work into raising it.

My gear is focused towards +hp, +mana, and +atk.  Everything else can rot.

Quote from: Thrashum GudPutting aside the rather pointless personal attacks I have to wonder how worthless agi is when you do in fact clearly gain ac from it.  SOE maintains the following (taken friom the Ruins of Kumark Prima Guide:

"Agility helps determine your defensive abilities, it affects how often you are hit, and to a lesser degree how much damage you take.  The higher your agility the less likely you are to be hit by melee combat.  It also affects how quickly you learn some defenseive skills."

This is from the people that actually made the game, I would think they knew best how their own progam works.

A) Prima guides are the biggest joke on EQ.

B) When I first started, I had a lowbie SK who died far from my bind point.  Being late at night, I looked in the eq manual that came with the game I had just installed.  It said my corpse would last for 24 hours, so I went to bed.  In the morning, I woke up, and made the trek only to find no corpse.  After getting in contact with a GM, I was told that my corpse only lasted for 3 hours, and that there was nothing he could do.  That manual was included by the people that actually made the game, I would think they would know how their own program works.

noticed that I capped Agi out buffed, as I have never put any work into raising it.

My gear is focused towards +hp, +mana, and +atk. Everything else can rot.

Same difference, point is even focusing on HP mana atk you maxed your AGI without even trying.

Reason that is that majority of decent Beastlord gear has AGI on it PERIOD you cant help but from raise your AGI unless you just actively avoid it

And all ive said from the beginning is i simply think AGI is a bit more usefull than most of you seem to think it is. not sacrafice ALL or anything to raise it. especially since it would actually be hard to do so anyway after you get past lvl 60.
_________________
coupl eof you people are just rabid, need shots or something.

Please provide me the PROOF verified by ANY ONE from SOE that you and all those others that parse have it right.

Until then I'm sticking with what the guide says, I don't have any idea what guide you looked at but the one I have clearly states: (guide that came with Kunark)

"Corpse decay rates vary by your character's level, by whether or not you are logged into the game, and whether or not you're carrying any items."

Sorry you got faulty info but I've yet to have the guides be wrong while a player was right.

The higher your agility the less likely you are to be hit by melee combat

Things change, a book cant be updated. Oh well
BUT the only thing thats changed about the above statement is they made AGI slightly more effective on Monks, no mention about Beastlords.

Ive yet to hear SOE make the statement "Oh btw we made it so AGI has virtually no effect on your char after its past 75"

Its always been the higher your AGI the less likely you are to be hit by melee combat if thats 2.5% for 100AGI then fine, that means the extra 230 AGI ive added to my char bumped his avoidance by over 6%.
Ill take it.
add that to the 20% from CA3/LR5 and im 26% more likely to avoid a hit plus my dodge and block.
Sounds good to me.

Quote from: Thrashum GudHow exactly is this a verifiable claim?

My problem with your claim is very simple, you say your parsing and that of other players parses are accepted, has SOE ever once said that?  Have they verified that you are parsing correctly?  Have they verified you are actually looking at the right data the right way?  Have they openly stated that you are correct with the information you are presenting as facts?

Now if they have acknowledged what you are saying I'll happily apologize for being wrong but I'd like to see proof of your claim vs that which Verant/SOE has released.

How do we have verifiable equations for physics without God (or some creator being, or whatever) telling us we are on the right track?  With trial, error, and statistically large sample sets, you can determine the underlying mathematics of many things.  And with EQ, it is SO much easier than irl, as we are provided with a timestamped log that give us all the information we need in a nice little bundle.

With the EQ log file, you can test almost anything you want, and as long as you set up proper controls, and have a large enough statistical sampling, you can present data as true.  There is a whole branch of mathematics dedicated to statistics and sampling data just like we are provided in the EQ log file.

As far as asking for proof from Sony, what is the purpose?  They are unlikely to give us their calculations for every stat in the game just because we want them to.  And there is no need.  Data is proof, all else is speculation.  

If you think we need SOE to tell us we are right, head over to The Steel Warrior, and check out the information there about the effects of /disc defensive on the damage capabilities of different mobs.  And then tell them they might be wrong because SOE never told them they were right.

QuoteHow exactly is this a verifiable claim?

My problem with your claim is very simple, you say your parsing and that of other players parses are accepted, has SOE ever once said that?

It is verfiable because parsing avoidance is simply counting numbers. You count the number of swings that are misses. Then you up your AGI and count again. SOE doesn't have to say anything, the parse results have been accepted by the player community (with Nunya being the obvious exception). In fact, after the parse results on AGI came in SOE admitted that AGI doesnt have much effect. They didnt have much choice, denying it would be like saying the players couldn't count. Its rather shameful that new players are still being misled. When you create a new character it still states that AGI and DEX are important for a rogue for instance, even tho the entire rogue community knows this isnt true.

QuoteThe type of armor you wear has no bearing whatsoever on avoidance

BS, just like wearing Plate has no bearing on your Mitigation from AC to i guess eh? LOL

LOL? He who laughs last laughs best. Armor = Worn AC = mitigation only. Your avoidance doesnt change by one bit from worn AC or are you going to deny that as well? Therefore Armor has no bearing on avoidance whatsoever. Avoidance = Defense skill. You get a small but decent bonus to avoidance as long as AGI is above 75. Adding AGI above 75 makes just the tiniest difference. Warriors have recently been given a small bonus to mitigation. Monks get a small bonus to avoidance. Priests and casters get a penalty to their mitigation and avoidance. Other then that, the basic underlying mechanics are the same for all classes, therefore all those parses are relevant

QuoteShow me where i EVER said to sacrafice ANYTHING in favor of just AGI and only AGI just for the sake of having high AGI and to hell with anything else.

It's your refusal to add that all-important "as long as you don't sacrifice any other stats" that is the problem. Instead you say things like

Quoteand it certainly doesnt hurt to max your AGI regardless what all the neysayer/parse fanatics say.

to a guy who clearly stated that his gear is Bazaar bought and therefore cannot possibly max out his AGI without sacrificing a huge number of his other stats. You advised everyone and their grandmother to up their AGI without mentioning they get much better benefits from other stats. You maintain that the effect of AGI is more then the few percent that parses claim based on your in-game perception, which is like saying the parsers can't count and your in-game perception of a quantity with statistical variance is infallible. You make these claims at every opportunity you get. You've denied that the benefits of raw AC, HPs, STR, STA, WIS are bigger then the effect of AGI in this very thread. Any attempt to show that this is indeed the case you meet first with twisted logic, and when that's countered you just flat-out deny everything again because you dont "believe" it, or conveniently skip over it to move on to next part of your rant. This entire thread is full of it. But you'll prolly deny that as well.

So, for the zillionth time: are you or are you not going to provide evidence to back up your claims?

If not: shut up, you have no claim, your belief in the effect of AGI has no weight whatsoever against all those parses. If yes: /applaud, im looking forward to it.

On the "SOE is never wrong" line: read the PoP book, and its description of Dexterity.  It states that dex affects "the time between attacks".  Woo, now Dex is innate haste!

Quote from: Nunyabizwell ive always said RNG>all.

Parses especially the so called "Longer more accurite" ones are pathetically skewed for that reason alone.

Rarely do most fights go for more than a Min or so, hell even major Eplane Gods your rarely up there at his heals whacking away the whole fight non stop. your in and out or healing, buffing, manuvering, etc etc.

So the vast majority of real fights are wildly dependant on the RNG for what you do or dont do, wether you get the shyte beat outa ya or hardly a scratch.

All the parsing the world is really going to tell you very very little about anything other than theoretical DPS between various weapons.

Thats about the only parsing i pay any attention to at all, rest of it is just about meaningless. smoke and mirrors and in the end may prove some theorectical minute percentage that really dont mean squat.

RNG>All

Nuny: Just because you don't UNDERSTAND statistcs (and therefore parsing) doesn't mean tht statistics don't MEAN anything.

ROFL...it just means that you are ignorant about statistics.

Long parses are done to get statistically significant data....data that is MORE accurate, more representative of the AVERAGE.  

A long parse of the effectiveness of AGI (or lack of efectiveness ;) ) shows the AVERAGE effect of AGI.  Obviously there will be variation from fight to fight...but overall they will AVERAGE to be very close to the data from a long, well-executed parse.

We call that STATISTICS.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that you don't know jack about gravitational theory....but your butt STILL stays planted in that seat when you sit down...and bowling balls and tennis balls still fall at the same velocity  (and hit at the same time) when you drop them off a building.  

Your lack of understanding of a subject does NOT mean that the subject is not valid.

ROFL...I just finished reading all of Nuny's posts....and realized that he is basing his "logic" on what Sony/Verant "says".

:roll:

Profound ignorance isn't profound. It's simply ignorance. I think anyone with some common sense can read through this thread and figure things out for themselves. Don't get too hung up on trying to win a debate with someone who has no intention of offering any proof or justification beyond "It's my opinion."

On a different matter, Thrashum raised the issue of SOE's reliability for game lore/information. At a glance, one would assume that the company that writes the game software should be a completely reliable guide to their product. However, their direction, which has some merit to my mind, has been to avoid disclosing information about the internal workings of various aspect of EQ. This challenge has been left to the player community to either investigate or ignore as they chose to do. The downside of this policy is that it can be very difficult to confirm if a given game mechanic is working as intended. Human falibility still enters into the programming process and just because game designers intended a given result simply doesn't make it so.

One discovery that comes to mind involved INT/WIS buffs and tradeskills. A while back SOE belatedly discovered that INT/WIS buffs did NOT factor into determining skill up successes. To my recollection this was changed in a subsequent patch. The possibility for an error in code makes it quite possible for developers to be wrong about their game. Add that into the SOE position of silence about many game mechanics and it leave a lot of room for confusion.

Now consider combat parsing is simply taking output from EQ and subjecting it to independent study. Looking at a combat log it's easy to see how many hits landed, for how much damage over a certain amount of time. Various factors can be adjusted: player stats, armor, weapons, and the results compared. So, altering a character's agility can be looked at as can changing AC, etc. SOE's not going to start jumping into the general debate over these issues: why should they? In a sense this discussion is as much a part of EQ gameplay as anything else.

Now, if one wants to simply play EQ from a roleplaying perspective, then feel free to load up on CHA items if your view of your character is a charismatic leader. On the other hand, if the concern is over how game mechanics actually work within EQ then parsing is one of the tools for making those discoveries. EQ is hardly the first computer game to come along where some character stats are virtually useless and others are key. But make no mistake - this is a *computer* game. It's a program and procedures calculate results based on predetermined formulas. The results are far more suceptible to statistical interpretration than any messy real life circumstances.

Bottom line: if game developers were infallible, there wouldn't be a /bug feature.

I wouldn't bother arguing with nuny you would have to use a 2x4 to hammer any ideas into his thick skull.

Yada yada yada. /Yawn

In fact, after the parse results on AGI came in SOE admitted that AGI doesnt have much effect

Link please  :wink:

I t certainly doesnt hurt to raise your AGI "as long as you don't sacrifice any other stats" especially since you would have to actively avoid AGI in order to not raise it if you concentrated on HP/ac.

OH so thats exactly how i needed to word it eh, hmmm thats what ive saying all along freak.

to a guy who clearly stated that his gear is Bazaar bought and therefore cannot possibly max out his AGI without sacrificing a huge number of his other stats. You advised everyone and their grandmother to up their AGI without mentioning they get much better benefits from other stats.

Just how do you figure that? Look at Grys megelo AGI 2nd highest stat and not even trying. next BS please

If not: shut up, you have no claim, your belief in the effect of AGI has no weight whatsoever against all those parses. If yes: /applaud, im looking forward to it.

ROTFL   hahahah   So i cant even claim what you just got through saying that AGI supposedly did now eh?

HA HA LOL 2.5% per 100AGI is now even toooo much for the mighty Copr to swallow? LOL
Get a freaking gripe dude.
Your even denying your own BS now

I'm one or two steps away from bazaar gear.

Board trolls amuse me.  You, Nunya, are a board troll to the nth degree.  Thank you for that last 20 minutes of utter hilarity as I read your posts.

Okiedokie. The original posts are long gone of course but the paladin board still has this thread (http://pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathtomesofknowledge.showMessage?topicID=4.topic) in its archives (im sure if you ask around on the rogue or warrior board there'll be old timers there who'll confirm this. While you're at it, do a search for 'agility' on every melee class board). Its a very long read and not all of it is relevant but here's the important bit; Brad Mcquaid (sp?) reply to the storm of complaints after the first parse results came in

QuoteIn working with the people doing the strategy guide for Kunark we decided to provide them with general information as to what the stats do.
I'm going to post them here.

This is a change in the sense that we were not going to discuss them or release more info. We changed our minds.

That said, we're not posting any formulas, and it's absolutely true that some stats have considerably more direct impact on gameplay than others.

We're posting this for clarification, and because previous explanations have not been accurate (manual, etc). We will not, however, engage in debate and our stance on how much some stats affect game play is that it's by design to inhibit some aspects of twinking. Are there better attribute systems out there? Yeah, but we're not going to change something as fundamental as a stat system in EQ after the game's been out for more than a year.

Anyway, here you go:

DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows

STR: determines how much you can carry; influences maximum and average damage; influences how quickly you learn many offensive skills

STA: affects how many hit points you have, how long you can hold your breath

INT: directly affects how quickly you can learn most skills; affects the amount of mana for bards and all mages, as well as shadow knights

WIS: affects the amount of mana the priest classes have, also rangers; also affects how quickly you can learn many skills if your wisdom is higher than INT.

CHA: affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you; affects the saving throw on certain bard and enchanter spells (charms in particular)

AGI: affects how quickly you can learn some defensive skills, how difficult it is to hit you as well as how much damage you take when you are hit

In other words: we deliberatedly made some attributes less important then others, but we won't tell you which one, figure it out yourself.

Which is exactly what people did, figure it out for themselves. Guess what they found? AGI meant crap, DEX meant crap cuz there hardly any weapons with procs on them, STR didnt mean much either. Raw AC and resists were king those days, because few items had +HPs on them. Priests poured everything into WIS, casters everything into INT. Some of that has changed over the years. Nowadays HPs are king for every class, STR has gotten an upgrade, and weapon procs add considerably to your dps. But AGI, the last time it was checked, is still doing next to nothing, and the hardest stat for a beastlord to max out to boot.
Perhaps a little history is in order as well. Back in those days, the popular parse programs like EQcompanion and Yalp didnt exist yet. Parsing 1000's of lines of logfile was a meticulous job using spreadsheets, which is why there were few parses in the first year of EQ's release. In the early days people wanted to believe that stats had significant effects, the manual and character creation screen certainly made it sound that way. Which is why, when the first parses came in there was such a strong reaction against SOE (still VI in those days)

Now its your turn:

QuoteI t certainly doesnt hurt to raise your AGI "as long as you don't sacrifice any other stats" especially since you would have to actively avoid AGI in order to not raise it if you concentrated on HP/ac.

OH so thats exactly how i needed to word it eh, hmmm thats what ive saying all along freak

Show me one instance, prior to, oh say, the third page of this thread, where you've said exactly this cuz i've just been going thru your posts on this board and the old one and i can't find any. While you're at it, please explain to us simple folk why, if this is what you've been saying all along, you were so vehemently denying the greater benefits of other stats earlier in this thread.

TTFN

Which is exactly what people did, figure it out for themselves. Guess what they found? AGI meant crap, DEX meant crap cuz there hardly any weapons with procs on them, STR didnt mean much either.

exactly what ive been saying....ALL stats ANY stat means very little in the overall scheme of things, be it Dex/Str/Sta/AGI all are only worth a small percentage.
and AGI is no worse than any of them, so I get 2.5% per 100 PLUS then AC, sounds damn good to me.
Whats 100Dex give ya? 2-3% better chance to proc? why exactly is that any better than 2-3% chance to get missed by a Mob plus a small amout of AC?
100Str? 2-3% or whatever average higher max hit?
100 Sta? depending on how much is over 255 thats what 300-350Hps?
That could be way less than 1 miss you could possibly gain from the 100AGI and extra AC.
I dont see ANY of them really ANY better than the other.
They are ALL very small percentages


Your biggest help BY FAR is your level then your AAs, nothing else comes close.

This is from my 2nd post on this thread and is what ive been saying the entire time you freak.

The ONLY things that have a hard percentage of anything are your AAs plain and simple.

RNG>All

ALL stats such as AC/AGI/Dex/Str etc give just a little bit better chance to mitigate/miss/proc/average hit and so on.

Your AGI/Dex/Str/Sta/Wis are all going to be maxed as you lvl anyway so arguing about what it does or doesnt do is rather pointless.

Best is to get as many HPs and AAs as you can manage those are the ONLY 2 things that really matter in the long run.

3rd
100AC means VERY little.
100HP means VERY little.
100Dex means VERY little.
etc

If your looking for the magic bullet its in your AAs.

The only thing that really means jack is CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE

Rest of it is just a very small percentage that all adds up no more no less.
and i did NOT tell that person to forgo everything else in favor of AGI, thats what you want to hear, in other words ITS IN YOUR HEADRNG>ALL then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.

have said it in just about every M----r Fing post.
Im just repeating myself to brick wall as usual.

None are really any better than the other, they are ALL way behind the stuff that really matters so once again i see no point in argueing when most if not all i say is either totally ignored or interpeted ass backwards and nitpiked adnausium and twisted by some fool into something im NOT SAYING.

you were so vehemently denying the greater benefits of other stats earlier in this thread.

Because there arent any stats with much "greater benefits" they are all so small it really dont matter all that much.
your the one that saying that ALL other stats have much greater benefits
ive just been saying none are really all that much better than the other and that there is nothing wrong with maxing your AGI along with everything else if you can.

None of your parses pr anyone elses have shown me jackshyte other than they are all mostly meaningless.


Just bump up your HPS and get as many AAs as you can and STFU

This was such a great read!

Kudos to those who spent so much time and effort into it.  You made at least 30 mins of boredom at work pass with ease.

Here is what it comes down to...

Raw HP = King (100+hp items in every slot)
1200 AC softcap
Defensive AA maxed

That is what is going to make a difference in actual playability.  In all actuality, it is the way you play the game that is what is truly important.  Actual game mechanics is not important as long as you are having fun with your friends.

Shit, are you blind? Did you read what McQuaid stated? Namely:

Quote from: McQuaidit's absolutely true that some stats have considerably more direct impact on gameplay than others

Now, read sloooowly...coonsideerably mooorre diiirect impaact on gaaameplaay thaan otheerrrs.

For example, 100 STA will give you about 450-500hp. Now I'm not uber in the slightest but 100 STA would increase my hp by over 10%!

Quote from: DumbassWhats 100Dex give ya? 2-3% better chance to proc?

Quote from: Dumbass100Str? 2-3% or whatever average higher max hit?

Now I don't have firm numbers but I would stake all my pp that these give far more than a 2.5% difference to max hit and proc rate. Cop?

For example, 100 STA will give you about 450-500hp. Now I'm not uber in the slightest but 100 STA would increase my hp by over 10%!

Over 255 Sta you get like 2.4hp per 1 sta so like i said just depends on just how low your Sta is but from 205-305 should be something like 340Hp. thats 50@ 4.4 and [email protected]
IF your talking from 100-200 would be approx 440, and even then its entirely possible just a single missed hit from a Mob could save you more than that.  RNG>lvl>AA>AGI

I slowed a Mob last night that hits for 1400hp, and didnt even get touched before MT regained aggro, had like 5-6 Misses with a couple dodges and a block thrown in and i think even a reposte (and since im certain just that simple statement has already been misinterpeted to mean that dodge or block has anything whatsoever to do with AGI allow me to clarify for the fools trying so very hard to disprove every syllable i speak that NO its just another form of avoiding hits and its Skill based NOT AGI based).
but none the less I avoided ALL hits on that occaision and its "possible" that my 305 AGI "could" have been responsible for JUST ONE of those 1400hp Misses "theoretically" though the CA3/LR5/PE was obviously 90% more likely to have been the reason. but either way I'll take that extra 5-7% or whatever it is that the 225 AGI ive added to my char has given me not to mention the extra 60 or so AC from it.

I certainly dont think the extra 5-7% avoidance and 60 or so AC is worthless like everyone else that plays EQ does. thats just me, and still not sure why thats some crime.

Ive not now nor have I ever said to max your AGI and to hell with everything else, (that BS is from whomever wants so badly to disprove every single thing i say that they just see what they want to see) hell i wouldnt say that about ANY of them and no matter what the differences your stats make overall are minute compared to your lvl and AA


Now I don't have firm numbers but I would stake all my pp that these give far more than a 2.5% difference to max hit and proc rate. Cop?

Keep yer 2cp I could careless about "firm numbers" regardless what it is its a SMALL AMOUNT wether its 2% or 8% is basically meaningless.

RNG>ALL >then your LVL> then your AAs>then a distant----------last are ALL your Stats

/agree-----Atropine

Someone wanna layout the cause, effect & proof/feelings of life after death while we are at it?

Okay Ghoat!  

My FEELINGS are that if you drink enough 200 PROOF liquor that it could have an EFFECT of an early DEATH with the intial CAUSE being the stresses of daily LIFE.  


Simple enough!

The "extra AC" from AGI is what is giving you the increased Avoidance.  It is not 2.5% per 100 agi, + the AC.  The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate.

again your contradicting yourself.  you are clearly inferring here:

QuoteIF your talking from 100-200 would be approx 440, and even then its entirely possible just a single missed hit from a Mob could save you more than that. RNG>lvl>AA>AGI

that 100 agi is more important than 100 stamina.  you can claim that you've always been saying that stats aren't important (they aren't that important at the end game, as they'll all be maxed anyway) or that RNG>LVL>AA>everything>Stats, but you are clearing implying that your AGI is more important than stam in that above sentence, and you are making these cases to lvl 24 newbs like timmy the Vah Shir BST who are going to take that information and go out buy freaking +7 Agi rings instead of 6ac/65 hp rings and poor little timmy is going to get OWNED by bandits in Paludal.  And its all going to be your fault.

In case you've forgotten:

Avoidance = the absolute value of (AGIFactor + Defense * 16 / 9)

at level 65, 235 defense
75agi=39AGIFactor = 487 Avoidance AC
255 agi= 62 AGIFactor = 528 Avoidance AC
180 AGI = 41 Avoidance AC

The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate. Im just taking what your saying here exactly as it is written The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate.

So your trying to tell me now that just 25AC (thats the AC you get from 100AGI) gives an extra 2.5% Avoidance?

So in other words what you "believe" is that if you up your AC from 1000 to just 1200 then you have just given yourself more Avoidance (20%) PLUS whatever small amount of Mitigation a leather wearer gets with 200AC than ALL my Defensive AAs combined?

and are you also trying to tell me the Warriors have this same AC=Avoidance rate?
So lets say a Warrior with 1800AC would have what 80% extra avoidance between 1000-1800AC?
Oh so here this whole time I thought Warriors were "Mitigating" these hits from these 3K+ hitting Mobs but there are actually not even getting hit.

Well must be sweet to be wearing Plate i guess with that virtually 100% Aviodance and all.


but you are clearing implying that your AGI is more important than stam in that above sentence

No I didnt, just said that its "Possible" which it is btw that if you get missed just ONCE by a Mob that Avoidance of which AGI is a "small" part of can and does save you more HPs than the maximum value that you could get from 100 Sta.
What i clearly inferred since you will notice i placed AGI as the least possible factor RNG>LVL>AA>AGI is that AGI does have "some" effect on being missed but that all other forms of avoidance are what is giving you 90+% of it. not sure how much clearer i can make this without basically writing a novel on each post for the comprehensive impaired


who are going to take that information and go out buy freaking +7 Agi rings instead of 6ac/65 hp rings

Just like the above statement that was completely misinterpeted I have never once said or even inferred any such thing, if they do then they like you deserve to be owned by Bandits in paludal.

ALL im saying and ALL i have been saying this entire thread is that the Avoidance i get from the AGI ive added to my char which going by what the so called parses say , not my opinion, but exactly what you all are saying is that its approx 5-7% extra avoidance and 60ish AC.
And that i find that to have a bit more value i guess than every single person 450,000 other people that play EQ.
Still baffled on why that is some crime.
I like having that extra 5-7% avoidance and 60AC you need to get over it.

QuoteSo your trying to tell me now that just 25AC (thats the AC you get from 100AGI) gives an extra 2.5% Avoidance?

So in other words what you "believe" is that if you up your AC from 1000 to just 1200 then you have just given yourself more Avoidance (20%) PLUS whatever small amount of Mitigation a leather wearer gets with 200AC than ALL my Defensive AAs combined?

Why do you even bother trying to enter the discussion when you clearly have no reading comprehension whatsoever. You haven't understood a single word of what was said. It's been very explicitly stated that agility is avoidance AC and worn AC is mitigation AC. They are 2 completely different and independent things.

QuoteRNG>ALL

And where did this little pearl of wisdom come from? The Law of Averages mean anything to you? You know, the larger the samplesize the more accurately the observed quantity represents the real average? Why we parse in the first place, to remove the effects of the RNG instead of relying on in-game perception which is hopelessly biased by the RNG due to selective reporting and confirmation bias?

As much as i've enjoyed working on my post count this discussion ends here.
You've shown throughout this thread that you have no idea what parsing is, you don't understand the nature of random behaviour, you don't even know the difference between avoidance and mitigation and you either misread every argument or twist them on purpose. And still you enter the discussion as if you are the world greatest authority on agility (and before you twist this sentence: no, i dont claim to be the world's greatest authority on agility either, but I at least have done some extensive research into it).
Get an education instead of wasting your time playing this game and trolling this board. I recommend Reading Comprehesion and Basic Math 101. When you're done with those, do some actual research into the subject of agility. Once you've shown you actually know what you and everybody else is talking about, then we can continue this discussion.

You know, the larger the samplesize the more accurately the observed quantity represents the real average

Law of reality mean anything to you?
But i guess you must be talking about all those 1-5 hour "fights" you do against teh backside of a green Mob.
Myself i go by the real fights IN GAME which are usually 1 min or less, and even on Major high end Mobs Eplane Gods etc rarely are you actively "engaged" non stop for all that long either.
So as far as the RNG goes 1-2 mins is about Max IN GAME which is where it counts. I dont play a parse.

Why do you even bother trying to enter the discussion when you clearly have no reading comprehension whatsoever

Just to show you boneheads what its like when you continously do exactly that to every syllable i say.
I have'nt either said nor even insinuated over 3/4 of the crap you guys are making up.

This entire thread has been over the simple fact that i think that 5-7% extra avoidance i get is really no more useless than that extra couple of procs i might get with Dex, the slightly higher average Hit i might get with higher Str etc, as i have CLEARLY stated over and over ALL Stats make very little difference in the long run, and they ALL will be maxed as you level no matter what you do.
Thats going BY YOUR FREAKING NUMBERS/PARSES not my in-game perception


As much as i've enjoyed working on my post count this discussion ends here.

Good, you may know numbers but you and your minions have absolutely zero comprehension of the written language.

I know exactly what parses are what they do how they do it why you do it, i also see ALOT of skewed ones and alot where the outcome is so small as to make it completely moot IN GAME.
ALL of the parses i have seen trying to prove or disprove anything about any stat have proven nothing except the fact that ALL stats have such a minor overall value that NONE are really any better than the other, they ALL help a little bit, and every little bit helps.

Get an education instead of wasting your time playing this game and trolling this board

I'll survive, I scored a 1470 on my SAT and that was in 1977 back when they were harder the test has been simplified to artifically raise the national average why im unsure but i assume some monetary gov BS.
So a 1510 back when i was in HS would now be a perfect 1600.
The 8-9 IQ test ive taken in the last 30 years have ranged from the lowest being 136 up to 161 personally I think they are nothing but skewed "parses" of human intelligence the one i give the most value to is the mensa of which i scored a 142.

Pffft.

I'd get a refund on your school tuition if i were you, cuz after a reply like this

QuoteLaw of reality mean anything to you?
But i guess you must be talking about all those 1-5 hour "fights" you do against teh backside of a green Mob.
Myself i go by the real fights IN GAME which are usually 1 min or less, and even on Major high end Mobs Eplane Gods etc rarely are you actively "engaged" non stop for all that long either.
So as far as the RNG goes 1-2 mins is about Max IN GAME which is where it counts. I dont play a parse.

all the SAT scores in the world aren't going to help you.

Thanks for the laugh tho, i nearly fell of my chair while i read your last reply

/yawn

No really, i give in Nuny, I can't argue with one of the 0.002% most intelligent people on earth. An IQ of 161? You're the new Einstein! (who had an IQ of ~160)

actually his was probably quite a bit higher than 160 depending on what test he would take today.
BUT as i stated of the serveral test ive taken the only one i give much credence to was where i scored 142. which put me in the "Highly Gifted" catagory but also "Failed" to score high enough for Mensa.
and many of these test are nothing more than skewed "parses" of human intelligence.

Just like your little meaningless parses none are all that accurate.

and anyone taking these test of which there are many will get a spread of scores 20-30 points or more and even more differences depending on if the test is timed or not, on untimed test its common to have 20-30 point difference on the SAME test.

Of ones i remember were "Wechsler Scales" "Ravens Standard & Advanced Matrices" a funky one called "Culture Fair "
and "Cattell B"  

As for Einstein he never actually took an IQ test his IQ has only been "estimated" to be between 160-180+ and his real brillance of which ANY IQ test would completely miss was his amazing gift of Transcendental thinking which would easily bring him past 200 to Unmeasureable Genius.

Also IQ scores are exponential (meaning the difference between 110 and 115 is far less than the difference between 170 and 175).

Thus meaning the difference between ME and Einstein 140ish to bascially 200+Unmeasureable is ridiculously huge.

continue with your childish drivel your most entertaining.

http://www.psyonline.nl/en-iq.htm (http://www.psyonline.nl/en-iq.htm)

It's wonderful how seamlessly this ties in with our earlier discussion. You see, the intelligence of individuals in a certain age group is just another statistical distribution, just like the distribution of hits and misses in EQ.

To put some actual numbers to intelligence, the average of the distribution is defined as an IQ of 100, and the standard deviation of the distribution is defined as 15 pts of IQ.

And that means only 0.25% of the population has an IQ of 142 or higher, only 23 out of 1000000 has an IQ of 161 or higher.

However, when you ask people how they perceive their own intelligence, 80% of 'em 'feels' they have above-average intelligence. That's the same kind of confirmation bias you are having about the effects of agility as you percieve it in game.

Measurement (i.e. parsing) beats feeling every time, and if you had an IQ of just 85 you'd had known that and we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place. IQ of 142 indeed, braggart.

"Measurement (i.e. parsing) beats feeling every time"

He he, but of course its that skewed BS "parsing" that would place Einstein down in the 160 range because it can not measure what was his real gift 'Transcendental thinking".

You just simply dont get it, and you never will your thinking as good as you are with numbers is very one-dimensional, thus lacking.

Yes it is wonderful just how seemlessly this proves my point precisely.

and this is still simply all over the fact that i believe AGI is no more useless than any of the other stats, not in the least that I believe AGI is BETTER by any stretch, just minutely more valuable than you perceive it and you for some odd reason feel that is some kind of crime.

This whole thing is quite funny to me. your a riot

Why don't you two take it PM's?  Any civil discussion is long gone. It matters not now who is/was right anymore, it's personal.  I am not taking sides, but this is not longer about beastlords, it's about 2 people.  No reason for all of the rest of us to be involved, when PM's are an option.

You could cut and paste this thread from the one at the old board when the same people argued the same thing :)

Summarized:

Corp:  It doesn't matter, here's numbers showing why
Nunya:  It does too matter, my feelings say so

Repeat 100 times.

Ever argue with a cat?

QuoteYou could cut and paste this thread from the one at the old board when the same people argued the same thing

And that's just the problem. This issue is a dead horse. The question of agility gets asked every few months. Rather then a quick definite answer 'no, agility does jack crap, minus jack, and we've known this for a long time', as is the case on every other class board, on the beastlord board we have to do damage control every time to prevent Nunyabizz spreading his beliefs among the newbies.
Invariably this results in a rant because the man just doesnt want to listen to reason, and a result of that, the thread gets ignored instead of discussed intelligently. The only way to solve this is by showing everyone just how insane Nunyabizz's views are, so that he gets ignored instead of the whole thread.
Going to PMs isnt the answers, everybody needs to be able to see his ravings. Listen to him: dozens of parses are skewed and get it all wrong but his perceptions are not? The man doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about. He doesn't know what parsing is, he doesn't know how a RNG works, he doesn't even know precisely what avoidance and mitigation are, yet that doesn't prevent him from entering the discussion and denying everything outright.

So to get back on topic:

Perhaps Nunyabizz with his monster IQ would like to explain exactly why and where the parses are skewed. Should be good laugh.

The "winner" in a rant is NOT the one who gets the last word or the parting shot...

it's the one who is smart enough to shut the fuck up and leave the dead horse the hell alone.

I don't see ANY smart people in this rant yet, but I just became one.

On parsing:
EQ is game for me, that I enjoy. Talk of parsing and such, is sounding more like EQ is a job. I'll quit, the day EQ becomes a job.

I try and max all my Stats and Resists, I try and obtain better weapons and armour, because it may and probably will make my character a little better. But not for one minute am I going to go out of my way and choose between two items, because my guild/group or anyone tells me I have to have a certain item because it parses better. I'll use the one I like the best.

Honestly I don't care about any parsing. I play my character well, with the equipment I have. I follow directions, I know how to /assist and such. I'm a good player with decent equipment who plays for the enjoyment of EQ, not because it's turned into a job.
If you want to use parsing, that is upto you and more power to you. For me, I'm just going to play and take things as they come...

As for the AGI debate:
More is better than less, as far as I'm concerned. Same for all my Stats and Resists. Get them all maxed.

Simple as that.

Found this on TSW, thought it fitted in along with how this thread has been going:


Tests are tests. Parses are parses. Opinions are opinions and they all smell like...

showing everyone just how insane Nunyabizz's views are

LOL im insane because i think the 5-7% extra avoidance that YOU say i get is worth having ROTFL.
And mainly because it will be maxed no matter what i do unless i actively avoid it LOL


HAHAHA   Gotcha  :wink:

You know i used to have some minor respect for you, now you seem to be just a freak with a burr up yer arse.
I really have no idea why your so bent on the fact that i see some value in that 5-7% extra avoidance, bout the same as the few % improvement i get with Dex/Str/Sta etc....

Think maybe you might need to take a break from parsing its obviously affected your brain, try just playing the game for awhile you might enjoy it.

*sigh*

5% extra avoidance is always worth having, just not at the expense of hundreds of raw HPs, AC, STR, STA, WIS and resists which is what it will cost most people to cap their AGI. Have you been paying attention at all?

Repeat after me and read slowly: the effect of AGI doesn't justify sacrificing your other stats for.
Got it? Does it say anywhere that adding AGI is detrimental? Or does it say that adding AGI at the expense of your other stats is detrimental?

I think this must've been the 10th time i said this in this thread and *you still don't get it*. You don't advise people to cap their AGI while they still got plenty of room to improve their other stats. It isnt about what AGI does for you, its about the proven effect that your other stats will do more for you then AGI and take far less effort to cap out.  

Now learn to read and start answering the real questions with real answers. Don't bother with your "proof-by-shouting-the-loudest"-method.
- Do you or do you not deny that the effect of agility doesn't justify sacrificing your other stats for?
- Do you or do you not deny the results from parses and if you do deny them, what evidence do you have other then your feelings?

Until you can answers these questions with 142 IQ answers, i don't want to hear another word from you. Im subtracting one point from your supposed IQ for every time you dodge these questions. You're already down to a 100.

I fail to see the point in answering all this for OH the 20th time, your too freaking  hard headed to comprehend what im saying.
your way to busy trying to make shit up that im not saying nor inferring.

You can answer them for yourself by going back to several of my previous post where i have repeatedly answered all those clearly.

Im not going to keep repeating myself anymore

and im not the one shouting

Im growing tired of trying to teach a dog to read, its pointless.

Your obviously incapable of understanding anything im saying if you want to continue this farce stop being an ass and act civil.

Myself as ive said numerous times I sacraficed NOTHING to cap my AGI because as a Beastlord if you raise your AC & HPs your AGI follows.
Can clearly see that with Grymloks megelo where he tried to cap his AC/Hps/Atk yet notice what is his 2nd highest stat. AGI

He didnt sacrafice anything to get high AGI,
i believe ive gotten about 60+AC from the AGI ive added to my char so yeah im perfectly satisfied with the virtually free 5-7% extra avoidance and 60+AC.
I concentrated on what actually makes a real difference anyway which was leveling and my AAs.

Last night while running to the fridge for a beer & trying not to die in PoE, I rounded the corner & almost ran over my 5 year old.  I slipped past her, and didnt spill any beer, that is what agility is good for!

For fuck sake, lock this thread :(

Very Barry Sanders-ish of you Ghoat!  

You gotz maad skeelz!

You're wrong Ghoat, the only proven effect of agility so far is the ability to avoid answering painful questions

PS. You're down to 98 Nuny, try again
PPS. Oh and saying that im 'making shit up' is slander. You're the one who feels that unverifiable "feelings" outweight hard numbers.

Quote from: GhoatLast night while running to the fridge for a beer & trying not to die in PoE, I rounded the corner & almost ran over my 5 year old.  I slipped past her, and didnt spill any beer, that is what agility is good for!

For fuck sake, lock this thread :(

no no, ghoat, your stat definitions are off, let me revise them..

Strength -- you were able to stand with 3 pounds of weight on you, congrats!

Stamina -- Mamaging to run! wow! *ponders last time he ran*, also had to wait to grab that beer! ouch that had to hurt!

Agility -- You dodged your daughter, that's agility... your entire body moved :-P

Dexterity -- you didnt drop, it didn't slip, or spill... that's skill with your fingers, hands, and weapon (the beer can/bottle/whateva)... thus dexterity

Wisdom -- psst.. put a fridge next to the computer... never have to get up!!

Charisma -- awww. a daughter! how cute!


hmm.. intelligence... what to do for that..... "Hey hun, go get daddy a beer!" :-P

I havent avoided anything and yes you have littlerly made up most of what your trying to condemn me for.
I have not said nor even inferred most of the crap your accusing me of.

Funny thing is the only difference in this whole thread between what your trying to preach and what im saying is that I think that 5-7% avoidance and +60AC is worth having and you dont.

and that is going with your so called "hard numbers" no more no less.
YOUR hard numbers show approx the same as adding an extra CA2 plus adding an extra 20AC Aug to 3 pieces of armor all free and coming from armor upgrades that predominately key on HPs/AC.

NAturally as the rest of this thread your going to try and twist what ive just said here around to suit your purpose
and your lil sycophant's are going to agree with every word.

So flail away i await the ensuing hilarity

96

This thread is done.