I have rank 2 in this spell and have noted a large spike in agro when its cast. Most tanks have no problem when i land ancient and glacier but since I have had SS2 as soon as i land it the mob immediately turns his attention to me, even after the fight has been going on for a while. Now this isnt just within pickups, where I dont know how good agro holding is with the tank, but also in guild groups where i know the tank WILL be grabbing agro and can hold it from me. Anyone else seen this and is it supposed to be this way?
I've noticed not just an agro problem with this spell, but an overall agro problem. Generally, before TSS, I could chain 6 nukes and have no problem with agro on a 3-4 min burn fight. Now I usually grab agro halfway through my second cycle of nuking.
Combined with an Enchanter casting Mana Flare on me, and (if I'm lucky) a Bard using his/her Cold Focus DD song, we can put out some sick DPS, but agro skyrockets.
I now limit myself to 3 nukes and Bestial Empathy, maybe 4 nukes if BE isn't appropriate.
A druid friend of mine said that same thing about her new TSS nuke too. She kept getting aggro whenever she used that nuke. Even if it's the only thing she used was that nuke, no debuffiung or dots and waited until the mob was at the last 30%, it turned to her. I don't know if it's just a TSS nuke aggro tweak that needs to be done, or not.
I personally haven't really noticed anything different and I'm always trying to grab agro from tanks in groups just to jack with them.
/shrug
abt 30 secs into a ZT fight last night, I actually pulled agro from the tanks after casting it for its 2nd round. It had me going "huh?!" bcs I hadn't changed patterns that much.
Now, there is a druid spell from TSS that does have a warning to it that it causes exceptional agro. I do not recall which one this is, off the top of my head, but it is in the last line of the spell description.
Using rank 1 of it still... I hadn't noticed anything unusual... is it just rank 2 that's boing odd maybe?
I haven't really noticed a difference in the aggro in the spell casting. Where I have noticed a difference is in general melee situations. A double edged sword with us getting Double Attack, but in any event, it hasn't taken much to adapt the playstyle to the increased aggro from it.
I've noticed that I pull a lot more slowing agro since TSS. Never really noticed a problem before, but now Sha's legacy seems to pull a lot more agro. Half a level to steeltrap jaws, before I can see if it's higher agro too.
steeltrap's agro won't affect you in the slightest bit.. remember.. it is being cast upon your pet, and the slow is a spell that your pet is casting, not that you are casting.
Jeezus.. imagine what it would be like if pets couldn't get any agro at all and it just transferred to the owner.. rofl.. bsts would be the true agro kings ;p
Quote from: Kanan on October 17, 2006, 03:04:18 PM
steeltrap's agro won't affect you in the slightest bit.. remember.. it is being cast upon your pet, and the slow is a spell that your pet is casting, not that you are casting.
If you are in Melee range of the mob, your pet's agro generated will be transfered to you. I don't know the hate level of Steeltrap though.
""If you are in Melee range of the mob, your pet's agro generated will be transfered to you.""
I would be shocked if this were true. That hasn't been my personal experience at all. I'm waaaay down on the aggro list, always below rangers while always out dpsing them. In fact I find it rather hard to hold aggro when I try to tank despite superior dps. Unless pet procs have a hate lowering effect or something...
Where did you read this?
I don't remember reading it anywhere, but I've seen it. I had extremely poor DPS for a long time while growing up. When I would group with my friend's PAL sometimes (without casting anything but slow) I'd steal agro from him in the middle of a fight after my pet proc'ed. Pet procs have a hate mod added to them and since the agro can't go to the pet when there are PC's in agro range, where does that hate mod go to?
to replie to the post above about stealing agro from a pal, our pet proc line of spells when proc invokes the root code for a split second until you back up or addional agro is added, i think this is true with all stuns landed or not. And yes there is some transfer agro from your pet, i seriesly doubt it 100% maybe even just inntial agro for having a pet i dunno but this is evident at when u tell your pet to attack a mob that you don't agro yourself it dies agro is transfer to you, or maybe it doesn't and you get within melee range agro is transfered to you.
way back when, when I used a triple nuke cocktail as my raid setup, they dying on a boss, after the tank went down usually went: biggest wizzy agro whore, me, and then the rogues. I started using BE, a far higher dps pet, and I started getting on agro after rangers would, w/o them taunting.
Now, if the pets transfer agro when to their owner, I should have moved up the dps agro chain, should I have not?
Yet I moved down.
Pets do not transfer all their agro to the owners. I'm betting it is a single point of agro that is transferred upon the death of a pet. A test you can perform to determine this: Pull with your pet, choose a nice green one so that it will die fairly quickly. Choose a nice single pull. Buff the pet up so that it can survive long enough to build up a lil agro. Now, sic the pet on a mob and run back to camp. When the pet dies, it'll, of course, come chasing after you. Have your tank attack it, w/o taunt or other big hate add abilities, the moment he can. Hell, have him plink with an arrow. I'll bet ya whatever sum you wish that the tank will get agro from you as long as you do nothing else.
Now, during the lil bit of time your pet lived, it will have accrued a bit o' agro/hate. If I am wrong, that mob will ignore your tank and come blazing in onto you, chewing you up. If I am right, which I feel quite confident about, the mob will stop & start beating on your tank.
This is not a way to try to pet pull btw, or anything like that. It is merely a test.
QuotePets do not transfer all their agro to the owners. I'm betting it is a single point of agro that is transferred upon the death of a pet
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. However, how do you explain the fact that if fluffy is beating on something and you approach the mob, the mob turns and starts hitting you (the common way to save your pet from dying)? To me this would imply that your pet has given you some position on the mob's hate list.
no hate is transfered to you from pet, but any PC takes hate over a pet when he gets into aggro range, the hate still stays on the pet. they changed this long time ago cus pets were consistantly out aggroing everyone and dying. mages were happy about that.
if there's more then 1 person in aggro range and pet has the most aggro out of all of them, the mob hits the "closest" person doesnt matter if a person standing a few inches further away has more aggro,
it never happens to me with my guild tanks cus they rock, but in pickup groups sometimes its fun to see pet get the most aggro and mobs will spin on whoever is closest (rogues and such) and start trying to own them till the tank can out aggro my pet
:mrgreen:
Quote from: Rawrzor on October 18, 2006, 03:14:02 PM
QuotePets do not transfer all their agro to the owners. I'm betting it is a single point of agro that is transferred upon the death of a pet
For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. However, how do you explain the fact that if fluffy is beating on something and you approach the mob, the mob turns and starts hitting you (the common way to save your pet from dying)? To me this would imply that your pet has given you some position on the mob's hate list.
That is a hard coded part of EQ that, given a choice between beating on a pet or a PC that are in its immediate melee range, it will always go after the PC, period. Other part of that is to make sure that you can't just sit there, afk on a spawn point, and have your buffed to the gills pet do all your tanking for you. It can still do the dpsing for you, but you do still have to put up with the risk of you dying from being beaten upon.
No, that's just part of the coded rules that NPC's shall always hit PC's that are within melee range before pets of any kind. Notice that applys even if someone else with zero aggro approaches your pet's mob (assuming the mob is KOS to them). So it doesn't matter how much aggro a pet has if you're in range. However, the pet's aggro is illustrated when you back out of melee and the mob does not follow.
Quote from: dainfrol on October 17, 2006, 06:12:31 PM
If you are in Melee range of the mob, your pet's agro generated will be transfered to you.
If this were true, we'd have been banned from using pets on raids long ago.
what the heck is everone's problem with getting agro? I love agro heh.
turning the mob on enrage onto the raid
dying and having to get rebuffed again bcs that 5k hitter just got more pissed at you than the tank
There are lotsa reasons to want to control your agro. I have agro issues a lot, especially in xp groups where I don't usually give the tank a lot of time to build up agro, unlike a raid. There are times I don't mind it so much, especially when clearing trash & such, but when we're beating on a boss for a decent amount of time and he then turns on me... yeah, I get annoyed ;p Predictability is important eg if I turn on attack at this point, do this set of BE followed by 2 nukes, after 1 min, I should be approx at this point in the death agro chain.
Quotewhat the heck is everone's problem with getting agro? I love agro heh
Most of us talking about how we dislike agro are a bit further along in progression than you and raid mobs that hit quite hard. Having agro on mobs that can hit upwards of 15k per swing ... NOT GOOD!
And much like what Kanan posted, when raid is going great and you just happen to pull agro as the mob enrages ... your not going to have many melees happy with you.
Pretty much what Kanan and Urim already said.
I hate aggro, think its from my days as a ranger having flashbacks LOL. But, I have noticed I am generating more aggro as of late now. I barely nuke, mostly conserve mana for BE pet.
I was even grouped with our guilds top tank. Before TSS, I had to fight to get aggro. Now I just step in and mob doesnt know who to hate more. *shrug*
Now, I do believe a significant portion of this agro generation is due to our increased DA rate from the skill, but I do think that it is streaky/spikier than normal.
We have a new learning curve again on our agro, due to the increase DA skill gives us (think back to getting IBF in DoD. My curve was fairly significant)
"Pet procs have a hate mod added to them and since the agro can't go to the pet when there are PC's in agro range, where does that hate mod go to?"
Hate goes to the warder, the way aggro works in EQ isn't a flat "who's #1, hit them" system. As some have mentioned there is special code so that no matter how much aggro a pet has built up, it won't take with a PC in range, regardless of the PCs aggro. In the case of extra hate on warder procs the hate is still added to the warder, but that doesn't actually matter in a lot of cases.
The issue of pet aggro transfer was always easy to test with a second party. Just find a mob, send pet, have it hold aggro, have other person do generate some aggro as well(nuke it, dot it...), and then when the pet dies the mob will go for the other person, not for you. If even 10% of our warders aggro were getting added to us at this point we'd know right away because lots of beastlords would be going splat almost instantly. The amount of aggro our warders generate is pretty insane. *shrugs*
Quote from: Kanan on October 19, 2006, 03:18:38 PM
turning the mob on enrage onto the raid
I love doing this/people who do this. Nothing's more fun than watching the insanity :)
we have a warrior in our guild who likes to aoe taunt on enrage, to bad for her i put up a 2hb and go defensive on enrage.
People who deliberately grab aggro from the tank should be allowed to keep it. It tends to cure the problem.
lol these peeps learn fast. We had one genius who wouldn't let the puller bring mobs all the way into camp. He'd charge out and end up moving everyone out of position. Finally the raid leader said to just let him tank it along <splat>. End of problem.
Pretty much same with peeps who really want agro. See what happens to them with mobs that FD the tanks. Tank gets FDed, they are top of the hate list and <Splat>. Again, end of problem.
It is hard coded that a mob will turn to PCs vs pets in all situations assuming there is a toon in melee range.
Eitherway this goes ... to have noticed a big jump in aggro not just from Spells but pure melee as well.....I totally agree on spiked sleet is aggro issue atm but I am sure SoE has something in the works to fix this issue....when I am tanking over warrior's with superior aggro weapons and sometimes dps even in Demi I end up tanking a mob thats hitting for 5k something isnt right there. This is a issue thats needs to be addressed if it hasnt been already
just have to correct a statement sumone made earlier.
if pets have the highest aggro the mobs do NOT attack the closest PC in melee range no matter of the aggro. it does not work as with root, aggro works exacly as with all other fights only that people out of melees aggro dont count unless they top pets enough to grab the aggro from him.
Buzak Ubertroll & fluffy ubergater
I haven't noticed any difference in agro. When the tanks go down, healers are next, then berserkers, rogues, rangers and finally us.
Quote from: Buzak on November 06, 2006, 04:01:56 PM
just have to correct a statement sumone made earlier.
if pets have the highest aggro the mobs do NOT attack the closest PC in melee range no matter of the aggro. it does not work as with root, aggro works exacly as with all other fights only that people out of melees aggro dont count unless they top pets enough to grab the aggro from him.
Buzak Ubertroll & fluffy ubergater
/agree, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Pet agro is a bit weird.
A lot of our soloability involves the ability to swap off with our pets. I think Buzak is right on when he says "...aggro works exacly as with all other fights only that people out of melees aggro dont count unless they top pets enough to grab the aggro from him." That is you can step in, and the mob will turn to you, even if you haven't done anything yet, but you can also step back out of melee and the mob turns back to the pet.
As an example, think about soloing something in MPG to see how it works. I grab a mob, send in the kitty, hit promised mending and slow the mob. If the kitty's health goes down too fast for the promised mending to have time, I just step up and melee it for a bit As soon as I get up close the mob turns from the pet to me. Promised mending hits, and I step back and the mob does not follow me it goes back to the pet.
That shows that given a choice between a pet or a Player, the mobs will give the player a somewhat higher priority. Not hugely higher. He doesn't follow me when I back off, but higher for sure. My pet can have knocked 75% off the mob, but when I step up he turns to me.
I wish I could give you some kind of a formula for it, but I'll have to defer to our parser gurus for that.
I haven't noticed any aggro changes either. When the tanks go down, I'm often one of the first to get aggro, but that's always been the case. Just have to know how to switch to emergency tank role...pop the defensive disc, move to the tank position, turn off attack (last thing you need is riposte damage), and hope they the healers have you covered before the disc wears off.
Quote from: Buzak on November 06, 2006, 04:01:56 PM
just have to correct a statement sumone made earlier.
if pets have the highest aggro the mobs do NOT attack the closest PC in melee range no matter of the aggro. it does not work as with root, aggro works exacly as with all other fights only that people out of melees aggro dont count unless they top pets enough to grab the aggro from him.
Buzak Ubertroll & fluffy ubergater
There is a somewhat root-like effect of a pet on highest aggro.
I'm fairly certain that if
(1) There is a pet that is at THE highest point in the aggro list
(2) There is at least one PC in melee range
Then the mob will not run off to chase someone out of melee range unless they pass the pet's level of aggro, even if they are second highest on the list (after the pet).
E.G. if Beastlord B, Beastlord B's warder, and wizard W were fighting mob M and the aggro list looked like this:
B's warder
Wizard
Beastlord
It'd still be whacking the beastlord despite him actually being at the bottom of the aggro list.
_____________________________
Who do i hate most? --B's Warder-> Is it a pet? --Yes-> Are there any PCs in melee range? --Yes-> Which of those do i hate the most? --Beastlord-> Ok i'll hit him!
it would be simple to test, but it is one that I believe doesn't work that way Hak. Pretty sure after the time I've spent beating on a mob at times, that, when the wizzy/necro steals agro from the tank and the tank is stuck oor and its me & pet, it doesn't shift over to me then.
test for it: pet tanks a mob for a bit, bst throws slow and a nuke on it to get some agro, the tank then steps in and pulls a successful taunt and a coupla swings (I know that can take a few mins at times ;p) and then steps back, a decent amount over the bst on agro, but well under the pet (my assumption (please correct if wrong) that the taunt would go to owner agro level, not pet agro level). Tank then starts running to avoid and bst runs along beside mob, not swinging. Per Hak's theory, the mob would stop and start beating on us, bcs the tank should be at far less agro than us. If my theory re: what level the taunt puts you at (owner's vs pet's) is incorrect, it should still not matter, bcs the pet would not cease attacking, and it should quickly pass the tank in agro.
Doubt I'll be able to, but I'd be interested to see how it works for others.
Haven't done that specific test, but when I solo, I swap agro back and forth with the tiger all the time for mana preservation. eg I can heal him for 8k+, but me for only ~1500.
I out DPS the kitty by a good piece as do we all, plus the extra agro from slowing, DOTing, nuking, etc.
Whenever I step up to the mob, even if I've done nothing to the mob yet, the mob turns away from the pet and starts beating on me. That's how I buy extra time for pet heals to land sometimes.
As soon as I step back, the mob goes back to beating on the kitty.
I think that it's not as simple as a hate list order, because when we both beat on the mob, I should be higher on the hate list than the pet, but it still lets me step back and doesn't follow me, turning back to the pet instead.
QuoteWhenever I step up to the mob, even if I've done nothing to the mob yet, the mob turns away from the pet and starts beating on me. That's how I buy extra time for pet heals to land sometimes.
Everythign works as normal, except mobs refuse to attack a pet if there are PCs in melee range. But your relative positions in the aggro list remain unchanged.
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QuotePer Hak's theory, the mob would stop and start beating on us, bcs the tank should be at far less agro than us.
Actually it should never run in the first place :p
Pets have tremendous aggro between their constant rapid melee hits, chain taunts (which *do* go to the pet otherwise beastlords would have rediculous aggro) and rather common stun, +aggro procs.
You can test the taunt thing. Send your pet to attack a weak mob. Don't slow the mob or anything that would directly give you alot of aggro. Have your friend hit the mob with anything detrimental (from range). Kill your pet, and the mob will run and attack your friend.
If i understand your scenerio right, yes. The mob should start attacking you if the tank steps out of aggro range given that the pet has more aggro than both of you.
Normally, the reverse is true. Its me stepping out of melee range for a moment to get the mob back on the tank. :wink:
The bst pet procs spirt of xxx invokes the root code from time to time. This is most evident when your in a kite group and your pet is attacking like normal and bam he has agro and you try your ass off for agro but it sticks with pet, call pet back agro is back to normal, this is despite your pet tuant is off and he is buffed with -hate procs.