Pet pulling will be removed form the game once Sony's programmers work out how to fix the code. It was an unintentional bug all along.
Personally I think pet pulling is something that has been in the game so long that it should be retained as a useful ability for pet classes. Beastlords excel at nothing, so the ability to do lots of things moderately well is our only strength. Losing any one of our abilities reduces our worth as a whole, and I dont want to see that.
Pet pulling is generally not an efficient or risk-free way to pull. It costs time, mana and DPS for the puller. It is risky when the pet has no range attack and it is vulnerable to bad pathing, mob DS and mob stuns. As such I think pet pulling is fine the way it is with 2 exceptions.
1) Mage fire pets have the ability to pull mobs from range with their spells. As such, as long as LOS exists a green con fire pet can be used to pull mobs without any risk of the pet dying in social range of mobs and aggroing adds, and a very low risk of the pet dying out of social aggro range and having to be resummoned.
2) Bestow divine aura and the Bard group DA song can be used to make a pet invulnerable so it can pet-pull almost any mob with no risk. This tactic is used to single pull Shyra and some other raid mobs to avoid having to do the complete script. In most cases other pulling methods can also be used, but pet pulling in this case can be the quickest and safest method.
As both of these methods allow mobs to be pulled risk free they should be stopped, however, pet-pulling in general, with its inherant risks and limitations should be retained.
To fix the problems with pet pulling the code that governs it will still need to be looked at, but instead of having a mob always use the level of the pets master to decide whether to invoke social aggro, it should only do so if the pet casts a spell at it or is currently invulnerable to damage due to a divine aura effect. If the pet is using melee attacks and is not invulnerable then the mob will invoke social aggro based on the level of the pet, as they currently do.
To avoid the problem of the inate spells cast by mage pets causing pet pulling to fail, the advanced pet discipline 2 AA should be refunded and all pet classes should get the command /pet no spell from level 1. If this were not done, then only high level mages with access to this AA would be able to pet pull.
These changes will prevent pet-pulling be abused, but allow the risky business of pet pulling with a weak melee-range only pet to continue.
I was wondering if there was any intention by beastlords in general, or our class correspondant Tastian, to protest these upcoming changes to our class?
I've pet pulled maybe once or twice. Used the wrong pet once also so make that three times. Other then that, I dont use it. Granted I dont solo as much as I use too but even when I do, I still dont use it. So in that, I wont notice it gone though, sorry if that sounds rude or what not trying it to be.
It was the same with the CH bug also for summoning pets. I didnt really pay attention to that until it was announced in a patch many moons ago. Just stuff I over look and dont really use all that much.
As far as I can tell, the only ones trying to do anything about stop pet pulling from being fixed is not a class basis but the poeple who use it in those classes.
To be honest it isn't a class deemed value. Yes only certain classes can do it, but not everyone in those classes will say it is a class "fearture" or a necassary perk for the class.
To me, if it gets fixed, meh. If it doens't, again meh. It does not define the beastlord class in the least and has nothing to do with how our class should function. It just happen to be there.
It is a bug, and exploit, but wouldn't be the first of such to be in the game people have used. They fix, they don't fix them....over all these are thigns are class is not balanced on and relatively shouldn't be.
I don't use pet pulling for anything. If I'm soloing and I can't single-pull something, I either take the group and kill it, or I pass and go find something else to kill. Sadly, that doesn't work in groups. But, if I'm going to pull something you'd better be ready for a train. I don't have the patience to do it any other way.
I rarely use it, however I am not thrilled about losing another tool from the toolbox. It's getting rather empty in there.
I already sent in my concerns to Tastian and SoE, so not much else I can do except vote with my pocketbook. Waiting to see how things go though first.
I've used it lots, and am going to miss it a lot. But it doesn't seem like it's something they're willing to let stick around any longer.
I never used it, mostly because I never bought the suspend minion aa's. I let the monks and SK's pull...that's their job :-D
It's official now, pet pulling is going byebye, along with one of the FD-pullers tricks: http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=280498#M280498 (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=280498#M280498)
QuoteOver the course of beta, we've identified and corrected a number of issues that have been around for a while but were being exacerbated by the downtime changes we are making. There are two particular changes with the "call for help" routine that I want to draw attention to since they close loopholes that allow some questionable tactics that some of you may be using currently. I want you to be aware that they will no longer work after our next patch to save you the potential deaths from attempting them. These will also be in the patch notes.
1. When most NPCs call for help, they will only call for a small, set number of NPCs to respond to keep from swarming people with dozens of NPCs at once. There was a problem in the call for help routine that caused an NPC to not call for help again for a few seconds if it had already called for help and enough NPCs responded that they had met that maximum number the first time. This is what was enabling the so called "tick pulling" phenomenon whereby you could aggro an entire room, drop aggro, then immediate re-aggro a single NPC and it would come alone. This is now fixed and NPCs will now properly call for help every time they are aggro'd from a non-aggro state.
2. With the above problem fixed, we also had to address another bug in the same area to prevent just shifting the loophole form one tactic to another. This one had a similar effect, although for an entirely different reason. When a player sends a pet in to attack an NPC, the NPC uses the pet's leader to determine how the NPC reacts. In one part of the "call for help" routine, this check was missed and it was causing an NPC to not call for help if it was attacked by a green con pet of a PC. This particular bit of code is there for NPC vs NPC combat to keep NPCs from ganging up on each other, but the missing check for a PC leader caused it to not call for help if a PC sent a green con pet to aggro it. This is now fixed and the NPC is properly using the pet's leader for this check as well.
Again, both of these fixes will go out with our patch next week.
Rashere
Gonna be a lot harder to empty rooms/caves now. SoE really wants to bring Chanter/Bard CC in to play, it seems. Like they don't get enough love as it is. ><
yep.. I disliked doing it most times, bcs of the poor pathing in most situations, the very large risk involved if the pet died (which it often would) and just how slow, generally, a pulling method it was.
Now it is no longer a viable pulling method, and some fun, seeing what this mob here's really like, as intended (single) is no longer viable without a bard, monk, or chanter. It really sucks. Further slap in the face and just flat out poor job I've seen from these guys.
There are loads of other unintended pulling methods, but they chose to nerf this one first.
They have really got to take a look at how ridiculous FD is. The AI of the mobs are so damn stupid that they dont hit a person who has fallen over 5 times. When a person FD's they should start bleeding and loosing HP or something, would be much more convincing.
Now people won't be able to say, "but beastlords do have utility! They can pet pull!"
Eventually maybe we'll actually end up with something to do besides look for cheesy loopholes. :)
I never used it, but always figured it could be something I would use in the future. Apart from the examples that Bham describes, I do not see it as overly unblancing either, Personally, I hate to see pretty much anything go in EQ, because it's that humongous basement that EQ was built upon 8 years ago, in all innocence about the genre, that makes EQ such a great and unique game. So every feature they balance, or remove or cement shut, every NPC they take out, every imbalance that is perceived as unfair gets evened out, hurts the game a little imo.
I canceled all my accounts anyway, but not because of this. It's the revamps and the last 4 expansions that are killing my nostalgia for this game and i realized nostalgia was the only thing that kept me playing. I can not bear to see cities like Freeport butchered up like this, or see an Ultra rare NPC like Rahotep become one of those modern-day "rares" which means he spawns once every 5 spawns and in a static area to boot. :roll: That guy was a legend for me in the 7 years I played, never seen him, and now I saw him like 8 times in one session and his loot on the vendors on the Combine server. :cry:
That is the sort of stuff that is killing EQ for me. The saddest thing is, you will not see anything like it again. Trust me, I am beta-ing a certain game that is supposed to be EQ's crown-prince, but forget it.
In it's current incarnation, pet pulling is potentially very widely abused. The DA pet pullling was only useable every so often, so not so much, but w/ mage fire pet was just crazy. I've had mages pull things far faster than bards/monks before. It was fun, but crazy wrong.
I wouldn't mind the changes that the OP proposed, but it won't happen no matter how hard we lobby for it. And really...oh well. The only thing that it'll hurt is some trophy killing I was hoping to do (wanted to try Grieg Veneficus solo sometime).
Either way, maybe more Enchanters will dust off their character again, now that CC might have a touch of use.
Quote from: jitathab on September 12, 2006, 01:03:44 PM
There are loads of other unintended pulling methods, but they chose to nerf this one first.
They have really got to take a look at how ridiculous FD is. The AI of the mobs are so damn stupid that they dont hit a person who has fallen over 5 times. When a person FD's they should start bleeding and loosing HP or something, would be much more convincing.
Come on, the one thing that i think sets us beastlords apart is the fact we don't call for nerfs of other classes. FD works the way it was intended and nothing really needs to be done about it. Lets leave other classes out of this.
While i did use the pet pull technique on occasion, i knew it should have never worked the way it did. Pet pulling was never intended, it was a direct result of a bit of faulty programming in the 'call for help routine' of NPCs and should have never been expected by anyone to stay around for as long as it did. It is not a nerf of our class because technically we should have never had this ability in the first place and anyone with sense should have seen this coming.
It's long been overdue and while i am a bit sad that i can't use this to my advantage, i won't lose a wink of sleep over it. And nobody else should either.
I never used "Pet Pulling" much at all... very few instances that I did.
Heck, I recall a group with my guildies only once or twice where I was actually asked to pet pull and I was like "Hu? Ohh yea that"....
Then the following commenced:..../uses suspend minion....../summons 46 pet..../pet attack........Inc Single Mob001..../pet dies...
/Unsuspend minion..... /pet attack mob01...../group attacks mob01......./mob01 dies. You gain experience!
Then after 5mins of that, Hey Monk008 is available for group, lets get him in! Me: Ok! Np...:)
I will miss it for the times I want to solo (which is rare atm) and single pull in a really difficult area such as caves ect and even for some raid utilites ect.
But mostly I'm use to pulling and getting trains. I am so use to the trains that I just go and train myself at Stoneroot Falls, and kill along with
my pet and Werewolf until im OOM and my Hp is 15%, Or till I die and at least I have fun with it ;)
But I agree that it does take away from us being able to be somewhat useful, and a useful tool from the toolbox. Even if it was never
intended to be in the game, they really should rethink it and consider it for pet users when they wish to solo, or even group situations
where you don't have necessarily the right classes in it..
I can't believe how many people aren't using this!?
I am the designated puller in the instances that my groups do. I don't even know any chanters or bards except for a few boxed chanters that my friends made for buffing. Taking away pet pulling virtually removes my current group chances for doing almost all of the group instance content we currently do.
I really am curious what all you people are doing? Am I the only one that doesn't group with pullers? Are you skipping the content that requires creative pulling? I am called upon to pet pull all the time......just difficult to picture how people get by without it but I guess I will have to learn.
Very few changes cause me much hearburn. I have often read threads here with people complaining about stuff that I feel they should just deal with and now the shoe is on the other foot. Sorry to be the whiner but I am pretty disappointed not just in the devs but in the people who aren't even interested in keeping this utility.
Quote from: Urim on September 12, 2006, 08:11:56 PM
Pet pulling was never intended, it was a direct result of a bit of faulty programming in the 'call for help routine' of NPCs and should have never been expected by anyone to stay around for as long as it did. It is not a nerf of our class because technically we should have never had this ability in the first place and anyone with sense should have seen this coming.
Urim hit it dead on. I'm sad to see it go, but I'm not going to let it kill me. No one else should, either.
I'm sad to see it go. There's situations where it's very very handy. It's not intended as a nerf to us really b/c our pet pulling sucks, it's a nerf to mages. I'm guessing the devs are a bit pissed that raid mobs like Shyra are being pet pulled.
I'm happy to give this up if it gets us in line for some kind of real utility. If we get nuttin again from next expansion then it sucks and I may have to switch to another class like everyone else.
I dunno.... I have used pet pulling for as long as i can remember. I am one of the ones who likes to solo allot..... well upgraded that to 2 boxn allot but still ... pet pulling is something ill miss for sure.
Bigger reason than my own selfish solo route is Shyra raids. I was designated puller on that raid. I would assume that is the main reason for the fix. Anguish type loot dropping off a raid mob that a pre anguish geared guild could easily kill. I sure hope we can still pharm bazu augs for our guild.
I'm not one to normally whine about "fixes" in the game, but if this was never intended to work the way is has in the past they should have fixed it immediately and not let people use it for a few yrs b4 "fixing" it.
I used it all the time. For me, it was a basic ability we've had since I can remember. Like many of our other older abilities that have been lost (http://lostkittens.neoclaw.net/), it seems we're completely losing this one too. I mostly used it solo, to break spots where pulls don't come single and it's suicide to fight more than one at once (as our pet can't offtank anymore). Occasionally I'd use it in groups, but only if no puller/mezzer was around.
The main reason it's being removed was BDA on a pet made pulling with it trivial (I've never even tried that), and mage fire pets can do it from a distance making it much safer. For us though it's a risky thing to try. Our pet has to actually move up and touch the mob, and we can't FD if it goes wrong.
I think part of why you don't see more of a stink is because many just never used it. For me, I can remember back before pet pulling, I can remember a few spots I used it, I can remember lots of spots I just didn't need it. *shrugs*
The biggest thing about for me is that it's another case of beastlords just being caught up in bigger changes though. For beastlords pet pulling has lots of issues and only through use of BDA(which has a decent refresh) can pet pulling really be super safe/fast. However, a mage fire pet, and even sk/necros using it in conjunction with FD can do amazing things very fast with zero risk in most cases.
It does suck that some of our recent utility will take a hit, but at the sametime, if sony is now stepping up and saying "hey pet pulling isn't intended" then that means we no longer have to have people go "sure pets tank for schit now, but they are great pullers". It actually levels the discussion field a bit, whereas previously many people(beastlords included) would claim pulling as part of our recent utility. With that now gone it is really impossible to argue or justify a lot of our past utility that has simply faded away. I truely hope that going forward from this change we see improvements to pets and to beastlord utility. *shrugs*
The alternative to BDA is the bard DA song, which refreshes in three minutes, which only works for pet users that have pet affinity. Of course, at the upper end all the major pet users have that AA. For SK's, it is the primary reason to buy pet affinity....DA pet pulling combined with FD is a very powerful and survivable combination. That will change now, of course.
Personally, I knew how to pet-pull, and used it on occasion. I'm primarily a raider now with this toon and there are others better suited to pulling. It was never a mainstay of my playing style, just the occasional useful tool.
QuoteIt does suck that some of our recent utility will take a hit, but at the sametime, if sony is now stepping up and saying "hey pet pulling isn't intended" then that means we no longer have to have people go "sure pets tank for schit now, but they are great pullers". It actually levels the discussion field a bit, whereas previously many people(beastlords included) would claim pulling as part of our recent utility. With that now gone it is really impossible to argue or justify a lot of our past utility that has simply faded away. I truely hope that going forward from this change we see improvements to pets and to beastlord utility. *shrugs*[
Can you imagine anyone agreeing we should get a new ability because a bug got fixed to our detriment? I cant...
I would think with a whimper if I thought it'll go.
My take on it is that the only thing gone is a feasible way for high level pet class players to get singles. That's the part that was fixed, the mechanic however is alive and well.
People have buff bots now. In the future they will have pull bots as well. I don't think we've seen the last of this unless SOE starts to go heavy on the level restrictions for zoning into a place, which would of course open a whole new can of worms.
Quote from: bham on September 13, 2006, 08:12:40 AM
Can you imagine anyone agreeing we should get a new ability because a bug got fixed to our detriment? I cant...
It's not that people would think that we should get new abilities every time bugs get fixed. But it does mean that people won't be able to use that bug as evidence that we bring a certain amount of utility to groups. For some time now, we've explained how beastlords have been losing utility, and people have answered, "what are you talking about? Beastlords can do pet pulling which is better than FD pulling!"
Nevermind the fact that was a lie to begin with. Now they can't even say it. So the question is, what *are* they gonna say in response to our claims of falling behind in utility? Not much. And that's the point -- that even some of the more stubborn folks are gonna have to start admitting there's an issue that needs fixing, which is the first step toward getting it fixed.
Quoteunless SOE starts to go heavy on the level restrictions for zoning into a place
They tried that. It was called PoP. It didn't work very well :p
Nah, the only real level restriction in PoP was for time, you can enter all other planes at 46 (same as old planes).
Anyway, i don't like the loss of utility that was there since the class was started. But there is apparently nothing we can do about it, however it means i can solo/duo less content than i could before, i actually used pet pulling quite often.
Only place I use it *alot* is duo farming Illsalin. Ive tried it in aug runs, and it usually gets me killed hehe. Kinda risky, I really wish pets were just changed so BDA no longer stuck on them but oh well, farm Shyra and Bloodeye while you can :evil:
"Can you imagine anyone agreeing we should get a new ability because a bug got fixed to our detriment? I cant..."
Yes I can. In fact, I've already had it. A few beastlords from these very boards have already PM'd me going, "uhhh yeah without pet pulling I guess our pets do need *something*". Give or take.
Even among pet users this was debated as a "bug" or intended, or unintended, but staying or whatever. Just as bengali mentioned, there is now a definite answer and that has to be part of the decision. No longer will someone be able to tell me "ok, so your pet doesn't OT anymore, but you don't need it to OT since it can pull singles now".
What will actually happen I don't know for sure, but finally atleast having an answer to where pet pulling stands in sony's eyes is atleast information. *shrugs*
It's been a while since i've used pet pull for anything (Box crew so no need) , But if i remember correctly you needed to be invisible etc. to pull it off. Seems like the easiest thing would have been to make those "Bosses" Shyra etc.. see invis which would have eliminated this tactic all together. For ppl using it to pull in regular exp /grind groups i didn't really see it as being an issue. For single pulling Raid encounter Bosses .....Well thats pretty much a bug.. and needed to be fixed.
It will be interesting to see what if any Outcry is heard from the Bards/Monks etc over the "Tick" pulling Tactic once these changes go live. I know bards used it more, but 2 monks tag team pullin can do the same.
No, you don't have to be invis for pet pulling to work. Simply being out of agro range is sufficient.
necro's & sk's would use it as a pulling tactic (fd & send in teh skellie) a lot, espec back when we were doing VT bcs if pet died.. /shrug. They were FD and weren't getting agro.
Only reason to invis in those situations when pet pulling would be if you were having to run through non-see invis to go after the see-invis boss. Then it would be important to be invis ;p
Invis doesn't affect aggro transfter in the slightest...if your pet aggros the mob, the mob is going to ignore your invis. But as you said, invis makes it easier to move past the nonaggroed mobs.
To the beast who said, "OMG I can't believe how many people are NOT using this"....and to answer his question on what I've been doing with my time..
1) I have a RL.
2) I raid. I'm a hardcore raider in a hardcore guild and thats what I'm doing with my free time after RL.
3) After raids are over, if I get a exp group going (which is not every single day)..guess what....we have REAL bards, monks,
or pullers in the group, or else we don't form a group.
Just because I hardly used it, doesn't mean I won't miss it, like I said its a handy tool at times, but I'm not gonna be
affected too much since I hardly solo anymore, unlike my Luclin days, where thats how I got most of my levels.
On top of that, I was lucky that my prior guild had alot of members, and I always had no issues finding all the right
classes needed to form a normal workable group. There were times where we had really odd combinations,
and for those times I was the puller sometimes, but not with my pet...mind you, but with being smart, knowing where to
stand away from aggro and casting slow, and yes I would get singles.
P.S.
oh yeah I'm so glad I got all the drops I wanted from Shyra when my guild farmed her with that trick. :evil:
Its still possible for shyra to be single pulled without using any server tick or pet pulling technique. Did it the other day without using nerfed techniques and it added exactly zero to the overall pull time.
My guild's monks always pull shyra.
I thought you guys could use a laugh. From the sony boards:
Quote
Pet pulling was left in for so long because it was rarely used due the fact that everyone knew it was a bug and didn't want it to get fixed.
Of course! why didn't i think of that.
Who said it? The quote is only meaningful if a Sony dev said it. There are an awful lot of people trying to divine intent and put words in the dev's mouths.
Some random guy who thinks he knows alot more about pet pulling than he really does. Unless there's a secret conspiracy among us that noone told me about. Are you guys conspiring against me? :-o
I'm only conspiring against the kitties, way to many of you running around.