Is it OUR fault?

[Scalewulf]

Very kewl story Cop.  

I remember those days as well.  My iksar warrior was very happy to get all banded and then elated to turn that into the quest armor that iksar warriors get.  

Being an iksar meant traveling on the rudder of the FV boat.  lol  (I didn't know of the invis potions back then).  

The game was more fun back then and SOE could do a lot to make it fun again by focusing on "group" content as well as raid content.  

I'm holding out hope.

[Rhaynne]

The things you consider trivial and the assumptions you make are beyond the average casual players reach in my experience.

I don't rightly see how.  He touched on every one of your points with counterpoints that were valid and accurate.

[Ragash]

I don't rightly see how.  He touched on every one of your points with counterpoints that were valid and accurate.

This counterpoint, for instance, is misleading and makes some, in my opinion, large assumptions:

Of course, if you get a good group together, you can knock out a hard LDoN in an hour. Even if it takes you ninety minutes, that's still only 22.5 hours per piece of purchased armor. Add in the chance for 0-4 nameds to spawn, each of which is guaranteed to drop some pretty nice loot, and you do not need to spend "hundreds and hundreds of hours".

A "good group" is a subjective term. What makes a group good and how do you determine that when you're mostly grouping with complete strangers or casual aquaintances. That warrior I met last week who could tank Derakor with a letter opener and fingernail clippers hasn't logged on since. The enchanter from two days ago who could lock down 4 mobs and keep all the melees and casters happy with buffs only has 30 minutes to play today.

It takes months just to build a friends list large enough to be able to find 6-15 people on who you know can play their class. Then you have to hope they aren't involved in something or have enough time to come group with you. Heaven forbid someone in your list leaves the game as that's yet more time spent trying to find enough competent people to group with.

If your friends list or guild can't provide you with the full group you need to do a hard then you're stuck with random tells to people you don't know to round out your party. I don't know about you, but I've run into enough craptacular strangers who could screw up a normal collect 27 in Mistmoor Catacombs that I just won't take the chance on a hard. Right there my potential point reward has been halved and I haven't even gotten an adventure yet.

That doubles the time it takes for a piece of armor from 22.5 hours to 45 hours (never mind fully augmenting it). Equivalent to a week of play time for a raider or four weeks for a casual player who plays 10 hours a week.

That's of course assuming that the casual player in question can get a group together and done in two hours, that the group doesn't end up with Clueless Joe Jackson and fail, that the casual player even has time to do an LDoN on any given day, that he does nothing else with his playtime for the entire 4 weeks until he has that piece of armor and that he completely disregard the desires of his group/guildmates as far as progression for their characters are concerned.

Xaoshaen contends his beastlord is played as a casual character but his posts reveal that he doesn't as a general rule have to deal with casual player concerns outside of having to aquire all his gear on his own.

The real question is, can Sony address through content the needs of serious non-raiders which is really where the lack of content is felt. The truly casual players really do have a lot of content available to them ( which is not meant to imply they should never get any new content in the future ).

[Hrann]

OK, if you insist:

The elemental planes are also just a few zones (fewer than LDON), in which you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.

LDoN is 5 zones in my opinion.  And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

Of course, if you get a good group together, you can knock out a hard LDoN in an hour. Even if it takes you ninety minutes, that's still only 22.5 hours per piece of purchased armor. Add in the chance for 0-4 nameds to spawn, each of which is guaranteed to drop some pretty nice loot, and you do not need to spend "hundreds and hundreds of hours".

He casually assumes that everyone is doing hard LDoNs.  In my experience, casual players almost never do hards - I have a hard time finding anyone willing to do them outside of raiding guild friends.  Casual players are lucky to get 1 regular LDoN done in a 90 minute period, as casual people tend to move a lot slower on setting up and such.  Sure once you are on a roll you can get them done quicker, but since casual players play in shorter chunks of time it averages out much worse.

The nameds in regular LDoNs drop junk, and seeing 1-2 of them is a treat - I've never seen 4.

Outifitting with one piece of equipment, with no augments, takes 30 adventures; with the time scale listed above, you can do the math.  Include in that you will need to do 30 more adventures minimum to aug it with decent stuff.

You haven't spent much time in GoD lately then. The revamp made a significant difference. You don't have to pass any sewer missions to get upgrades. In a three hour session the other day we got an Improved Damage 4 augment, some caster sleeves that wound up rotting, and a spell. The few zones? There are more zones available to casual players in GoD than there are PoP zones that they're excluded from

The things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.  There are casual people that can one group these, but not many.  Even the yard trash in zones like Ferubi is extremely difficult - creatures hitting for 800 or 900 make 6-7k warriors go splat, nevermind if you don't have the optimal group makeup.

There are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.  There are more than that not available in PoP, if you include zones like CoD, which you left out.  But again, I don't care what the hardcore raiders can do, I'm asknig for new content, the same as they do.

With your 4 person group that killed Hoshkar, I'm frankly amazed.  Our group of twelve lasted a while, and we had difficulty overcoming his natural regen.  Perhaps that Time geared cleric helped.  I like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.  Or that it is even remotely possible that we would have 4 65th levl SKs in our "group".  Remember, for the casual player, raiding is extremely rare and you can't assume things that would be normal or everyday for a raider.

The thing is, Velious and Kunark have been trivialized for a long time too. Luclin is trivialized save for one zone. All of PoP save six zones (ok, 8 if you count the B versions of Time and Earth) has been trivialized. So you're really only talking about 9 zones that the raiders have and you do not.

Except for VP as mentioned above, I will agree that Kunark has been largely trivialized.  Except there are still things that are difficult for a casual group outside of that zone.  Gorenair if he's not immediately one grouped by some ubers, Veksar's dragon (not original I know), there's still smoe challenge to be had in Chardok, etc.  Velious still has the ring war, and raids are still required for all the old targets in Kael, SS, etc. (I know raiders can 1 group them all).

Luclin only has 1 zone that is trivial?  What about Doomshade and Rumblecrush, Grieg, and a host of other nameds that require a raid for casual people?

If you want to argue that hardcore and casual players alike need more content, that's one thing, but I don't see a massive disparity in the places each can go.

I'm arguing that casual players need more content; the very vocal hardcore group in EQ can take care of themselves.  Whether there is a disparity in the places they can go or not - it is where they DO go that is the disparity.  90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.  I go weeks of playing without seeing a single member of the raiding community anywhere.  Rarely, I will see them doing a LDoN group.

I don't really think we have much common ground to argue on, as our experiences are obviously wildly different.  Also I want to add that some of the stuff is doable by SOME casual players - I do intend to advance in GoD eventually.  However, believe it or not, I am considered very high end by many of the people I spend time with.

[Chubaka]

d00dz

Heheheeh good one :)



Anyway.....I am casual. Yes would like to have the loot that  Time guys have but of course I don't have the time to get that stuff. So I agree that I did not earn it so it should not just be given to me.

I am happy when I save up some PP and am able to buy some super duper ( to me ) upgrade.  I was excited when I solo's my first monster in Riwwi and realaized, wow there is a chance that I can get the great tunic out of there.  Sure the chance is slim but it sure is fun to try.

The deal with being casual is that there is always something better to strive for keeping it for much longer than the hard core dude.  How excited can you get with an upgrade that has 280hp instead of the 275 your replaceing heheheh. Or if your claws go from 29dmg 15dly to 30dmg 15dly :)

[Urim]

LDoN is 5 zones in my opinion. And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

How is it only 5 zones? Its 5 areas but each area has 5(?) different zones, yeah they all have the same look but so does elemental plane, entire plane looks the same with the same mobs. 5 different variation at least equals the size of a single elemental plane.

The things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.

Items of elemental quality or better can drop from trash mobs and not named.

There are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.

Actually there are 11 fighting zones -- Natimbi, Qinimi, Ferubi, Riwwi, Barindu, Sewers Plant, Sewers Crematory, Sewers Lair, Sewers Pool, Vxed and Tipt. To get a sewer expedition can just talk to Gamesh and that means you can get the 2 easier zones, crematory and pools. The mobs in these zones start out hitting for 500 max or so at the beginning and only start hitting harder the farther back in the expedition your willing to go. The trash mobs in these zones also drop elemental quality or better loot, 36% haste belt with 100+ hp, caster cloak with focus effect and 100+hp. I've been able to get these items soloing the IZ mobs and given them away.

I like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.

I don't think he's assuming anything, he was giving you a helpful hint that the next time you attempt it, it might be useful to get some DR gear.

90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.

Is that such a bad thing, if they were in zones accessible to the casual players then wouldn't they be taking mobs and exp away from the casual player. I can't count how many times i have been bitched at in tells for going back to old zones to mess around because the casuals say im taking all the mobs or that i should go back to my own zones.

[Coprolith]

How is it only 5 zones? Its 5 areas but each area has 5(?) different zones, yeah they all have the same look but so does elemental plane, entire plane looks the same with the same mobs. 5 different variation at least equals the size of a single elemental plane.

Yeah right. Have you actually done any LDoNs? All so-called variations in a theme are made up of exactly the same building blocks. The designers of LDoN have been playing with Lego. Many of those blocks are in fact shared between the themes, only the texturing on the wall differs. The mobs in the different themes are almost exactly the same. They hit for the same amount of damage, they have the same amount of hps, and each theme has one, and only one, type of mob that has more hps but lower damage output (mummies in Mistmoore, wolves in rujark, etc). As i said before, once you've done a dozen missions in each theme all of LDoN looks the same; it might as well be one zone.

The trash mobs in these zones also drop elemental quality or better loot, 36% haste belt with 100+ hp, caster cloak with focus effect and 100+hp. I've been able to get these items soloing the IZ mobs and given them away.

Said the guy with 1619 AC, 7351 hps and 300 in all resists unbuffed. Try fighting there with half your gear equipped and only one weapon, that'll give a better idea how a casual player performs there

/hugs

[Urim]

Yeah right. Have you actually done any LDoNs? All so-called variations in a theme are made up of exactly the same building blocks.

Yes, i have. In fact, im roughly 50 wins away from maxed adventure stone. What i was argueing was the persons statement that the elemental planes are bigger then the LDoN zones. Combine all 5 variations of 1 camp and that equals at least 1 elemental zone. Doesn't matter that they have the same look because 1 elemental zone is going to have the same look throughout.

Said the guy with 1619 AC, 7351 hps and 300 in all resists unbuffed. Try fighting there with half your gear equipped and only one weapon, that'll give a better idea how a casual player performs there

I'm not advocating that a casual player go there to solo (although a fairly well bazaar equipped player i think could). I'm saying they should go there to group. If they are able to find a tank with close to 7khp unbuffed and somehow find a healer that can heal for at least 509 a cast then their group should be able to tear it up. Grouping is the basis for this game (hence the MM part of mmorpg) so if people think they gonna be able to obtain upgrades doing solo things then they are in for a sore awakening and should maybe start looking toward single player games.

[Lorathir]

This could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back  :P

[Ukator Iceblood]

I'm ele equiped without a ton of nice stuff and can solo if I have all the buffs I need there (i.e. virt/kei and whatnot). It seems to be easier in someways than Riwwi due to lack of procs.
Those two easier sewers would be like doing BoT for the most part. Should be easy for a causal group to hang out near zoneline kill and hope for a named or rare drop. Heck, my normal group of friends, if we get a CCer, do the xp version of Vxed for the same reasons. Not trying to pass it or beat it but trying to get lucky on a named or rare item.

Also I recommend hard ldon to anyone who knows a good Ccer. Fun fun time.

[Birdienumnum]

I am a casual player, in a 80 (main) member guild.
My main is a 56 beastlord.
The only time the guild has raids is for someones epic.

The best experience for me is to do LDoN's. I do not get the chance to do an adventure every night, as there is usually someone in the guild that needs help with something.
I have found that I get turned down for some groups because my equipment is not the greatest. I think what I have is really good, for an untwinked poor main. The only items of note, is--
gold inlaid ulak - won on a random
ripped leggings - bought in bazaar for less than 2K (good buy!)
crinose cape - another bazaar bargain.

My HP is 2035
AC is 907
ATK is 1004

I think my equipment is above average for someone that has /played at  41 days, 6 hours. Born on Dec 3, 2002.

At a time, I actually semi-retired my beastlord, to play my other characters. The grind was becoming just too much.

I agree with the views of Coprolith and the others that have v iews in a similar vain. Everquest has transformed from a "grouping" biased game to a "raiding" biased game post Luclin expansion

Magelo
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=569815

[Hrann]

90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.

Is that such a bad thing...

No, it's not such a bad thing.  I was just clarifying a point Xao questioned me on.

This could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back.

I agree.

[xaoshaen]

A "good group" is a subjective term. What makes a group good and how do you determine that when you're mostly grouping with complete strangers or casual aquaintances. That warrior I met last week who could tank Derakor with a letter opener and fingernail clippers hasn't logged on since. The enchanter from two days ago who could lock down 4 mobs and keep all the melees and casters happy with buffs only has 30 minutes to play today.

Well, it would be a subjective term, if I hadn't used in a context that pretty well defined a good group as one which could finish a hard LDoN in around an hour ;) What makes a good group, in the context of a hard LDoN, are several factors. One is group leadership. Having someone who can monitor your progress, moderate the pulling rate as needed, and generally keep everyone in line is a huge plus. Anyone can fill this role, so if a group suffers from poor leadership, we have only ourselves to blame. A good puller or crowd control is a must. Fortunately, monks, bards, and enchanter can all fill this role easily. I've had a cleric do it too, but he was an exceptional cleric and it's not a generally advisable strategy. Obviously, a good tank is important. I try to find a plate class with at least 8k hit points, which are pretty common on my server. Aggro lock is trivial for a hybrid, so they're the safe choice in a pickup group. I've done a number of them with random warriors with mixed results. Though we wound up winning, we did eat some unnecessary deaths when a warrior wasn't used to tanking mobs that could eat a wizard in a few rounds.. Again, good leadership can make a huge difference. If the tank can't hold aggro, change the way the group is doing things. You need a healer, either a cleric or a decent druid will do. I always ask them, particularly the druids, if they're comfortable healing against mobs that can triple for 1k. Also, make sure the tank and the healer are on the same page regarding the timing of the heals. It sounds like a lot of babysitting, and initially it is. Pretty soon you get a good idea of who can pull their weight in a more hazardous environment, and after a few smooth runs, people will start to seek you out for more fun and games.

It takes months just to build a friends list large enough to be able to find 6-15 people on who you know can play their class. Then you have to hope they aren't involved in something or have enough time to come group with you. Heaven forbid someone in your list leaves the game as that's yet more time spent trying to find enough competent people to group with.

Yeah, I actually already covered this. It's not quite as bad as you make it out to be, though. For LDoN, even on a hard mission, you still don't need the optimal group, and provided you're on the ball you can help cover for other people's deficiencies.

If your friends list or guild can't provide you with the full group you need to do a hard then you're stuck with random tells to people you don't know to round out your party. I don't know about you, but I've run into enough craptacular strangers who could screw up a normal collect 27 in Mistmoor Catacombs that I just won't take the chance on a hard. Right there my potential point reward has been halved and I haven't even gotten an adventure yet.

Well, that's your decision. I don't fail normals anymore, personally. It's not that I'm some kind of EQ god either, it's just that I now have quite a bit of experience with LDoN and can minimize the usual mistakes. I find that as long as I handle pulling and slowing, and use Ben to offtank, I can grab five random people and blow up a normal pretty quickly. because of this, I'm able to grab folks I've never met and find out if a chanter has trouble locking down a single add. If he doesn't, then I can add him to the list of people I can do hard runs with. Furthermore, I'm willing to take a chance on players from high end guilds on my server. It doesn't always work out (my loss came when our puller bailed on a hard to go raid), but usually their gear can compensate for any shortcomings in technique.

That doubles the time it takes for a piece of armor from 22.5 hours to 45 hours (never mind fully augmenting it). Equivalent to a week of play time for a raider or four weeks for a casual player who plays 10 hours a week.

Nope, still only takes 22.5 hours once you've got the hang of things. Even if you do double it, it's still significantly faster than getting gear via raiding. Is it still too slow? maybe, but then that's a complaint with EQ in general, not simply a casual player issue.

That's of course assuming that the casual player in question can get a group together and done in two hours, that the group doesn't end up with Clueless Joe Jackson and fail, that the casual player even has time to do an LDoN on any given day, that he does nothing else with his playtime for the entire 4 weeks until he has that piece of armor and that he completely disregard the desires of his group/guildmates as far as progression for their characters are concerned.

Xaoshaen contends his beastlord is played as a casual character but his posts reveal that he doesn't as a general rule have to deal with casual player concerns outside of having to aquire all his gear on his own.

Actually, I deal with all the issues that you list. Because of my lack of flags, and a general dissatisfaction with grinding amongst my guild, I rarely get a guild group. Most of my friends from the old days are in raiding guilds these days, so when I'm free to play my Beastlord, they're frequently raiding, or otherwise unavailable. Ninety percent of my groups are pickup groups, which suffer from the same issues regardless of whether you're hardcore or casual. I'm grouping with the same people you are. I do find that I can put together a group pretty quickly these days. Being able to fill the role of slower is an enormous benefit. I feel worse for the casual monk or rogue right now. Now those poor bastards have it rough.

One of the good things about LDoN is that you don't have to be selfish. At the same time that you're earning points, your groupmates are getting the exact same rewards. While GoD doesn't offer points, the variety of drops make an expedition potentially profitable for everyone involved. the recent (much needed!) changes to the spell drops help further this too.

The real question is, can Sony address through content the needs of serious non-raiders which is really where the lack of content is felt. The truly casual players really do have a lot of content available to them ( which is not meant to imply they should never get any new content in the future ).

Eh, there's just not that big of a content discrepancy. We're still only talking about a handful of zones that are still exclusive. Could EQ use more content? Heck yeah! The massive volume of content for raiders isn't the argument you want to use, though. They really can't go that many more places than anyone else.

[xaoshaen]

OK, if you insist:

The elemental planes are also just a few zones (fewer than LDON), in which you need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to get upgrades from.

LDoN is 5 zones in my opinion.  And they are tiny, compared to outdoor zones.

And the elemental planes are four zones, in my opinion, since Earth B is just more of Earth A.  5 > 4.

He casually assumes that everyone is doing hard LDoNs.  In my experience, casual players almost never do hards - I have a hard time finding anyone willing to do them outside of raiding guild friends.  Casual players are lucky to get 1 regular LDoN done in a 90 minute period, as casual people tend to move a lot slower on setting up and such.  Sure once you are on a roll you can get them done quicker, but since casual players play in shorter chunks of time it averages out much worse.

I know that most casual players don't do hards. I also know that they can if they want to push themselves. I know this because I do hard runs with casual players. I do normal LDoNs with random pickup groups that definitely include casual players and we knock them out in 30-45 minutes on a regular basis.

The nameds in regular LDoNs drop junk, and seeing 1-2 of them is a treat - I've never seen 4.

True, which is exactly why is never advocated farming the nameds on normal.

Outifitting with one piece of equipment, with no augments, takes 30 adventures; with the time scale listed above, you can do the math.  Include in that you will need to do 30 more adventures minimum to aug it with decent stuff.

Or 15 hard adventures, or an appropriate combination thereof.

The things in GoD you mention require doing mini nameds.  There are casual people that can one group these, but not many.  Even the yard trash in zones like Ferubi is extremely difficult - creatures hitting for 800 or 900 make 6-7k warriors go splat, nevermind if you don't have the optimal group makeup.

Yep, GoD requires a pretty optimal group. Almost every new expansion does initially. Once people get more comfortable there and get a bit better gear, this too shall become the domain of the odd group.

There are 6 fighting zones in GoD that the casual player can access with great difficulty - Riwwi, Ferubi, Natimbi, Barundi, Ferubi, 1st level of sewers.  There are more than that not available in PoP, if you include zones like CoD, which you left out.  But again, I don't care what the hardcore raiders can do, I'm asknig for new content, the same as they do.

Of course I left out CoD, seeing as how it's open to everyone (and there's some great exp to be had there for pickup groups too!)

With your 4 person group that killed Hoshkar, I'm frankly amazed.  Our group of twelve lasted a while, and we had difficulty overcoming his natural regen.  Perhaps that Time geared cleric helped.

Oh, undoubtedly. Snero's the man, no question about it. Of course, each of us outdamaged him, but I certaintly wouldn't recommend trying to clear the zone with four casual players. The thing to remember is that Hosh's only got 32k hit points. If you can stay unslowed for 30 seconds, Bestial Fury will tear him up. A couple of wizards will give him a really bad day as well.

I like the way it is assumed that the casual player has a set of DR gear hanging about.  Or that it is even remotely possible that we would have 4 65th levl SKs in our "group".  Remember, for the casual player, raiding is extremely rare and you can't assume things that would be normal or everyday for a raider.

Well, the four SK routine wasn't intended as a serious suggestion, but a single Sk could still do 25% of Hoshkar's life with one click. DR gear is ridiculously easy to come by. Things like crafted jewelry, tattered mantles, and the like are easy to camp or farm and cheap to come by. If you can resist his AE, you don't really need much in the way of hit points or AC. I wasn't assuming that you already had these laying about, but suggesting that you expend some minimal effort in preparation should you choose to go a second round with the big green fella.

Except for VP as mentioned above, I will agree that Kunark has been largely trivialized.  Except there are still things that are difficult for a casual group outside of that zone.  Gorenair if he's not immediately one grouped by some ubers, Veksar's dragon (not original I know), there's still smoe challenge to be had in Chardok, etc.  Velious still has the ring war, and raids are still required for all the old targets in Kael, SS, etc. (I know raiders can 1 group them all).

Sure, there's still challenge to be found there, but it's all very doable for casual players.

Luclin only has 1 zone that is trivial?  What about Doomshade and Rumblecrush, Grieg, and a host of other nameds that require a raid for casual people?

And yet, they're still very killable by casual players.

I'm arguing that casual players need more content; the very vocal hardcore group in EQ can take care of themselves.  Whether there is a disparity in the places they can go or not - it is where they DO go that is the disparity.  90% of the time a hardcore payer is online takes place in a zone that is inaccessible to the casual player.  I go weeks of playing without seeing a single member of the raiding community anywhere.  Rarely, I will see them doing a LDoN group.

Your server must be very, very different than mine. I see, and frequently group with, members from the top raiding guilds on the server on a regular basis. Whether it's for type-7 augs, or just charm improvements, there are incentives for raiders to hit LDoN too. GoD expeditions for farming or progression, are not as common yet, but they've become much more accessible as of late, as people start to realize what a difference the revamp made.  

I don't really think we have much common ground to argue on, as our experiences are obviously wildly different.  Also I want to add that some of the stuff is doable by SOME casual players - I do intend to advance in GoD eventually.  However, believe it or not, I am considered very high end by many of the people I spend time with.

That seems to be the common perception: that raiders, like parents, "just can't understand". The thing is, I've been in both situations within the last year. I played a level 60, AA-less monk with armor from Velious (and not even high end Velious) during Planes of Power. I work 50+ hours a week, and have commitments outside of EQ that cause my play times to fluctuate significantly. I still do play more than many casual players, but not to such a degree as you might suppose.

[xaoshaen]

This could go on forever guys. I think we peaked a few pages back  :P

Yup, coming to that conclusion myself. Unless someone has specific objections to something incorrect that I said, I think I've stated my position fairly clearly.

I do think EQ could use more content, and certaintly more adventure. I just think that this applies at all levels of the game, and don't see a massive gap between the content available to raiders and that open to casual players.