That dungeon she's flat! No she's round!

TheOriginalGronker · March 11, 2004, 05:04:01 PM

I must have just woken up or something. Velious was the last expansion that actually had .. 'round dungeons'. Luclin, PoP, LoY, and now GoD are all full of flat dungeons. I think they got some different level designers in between somewhere. Or different dungeon-designing rules - maybe to make it 'easier' on everyone. Take Velks .. for lack of a better example. Its a freakin 3d dungeon with every nook-n-cranny jam packed with stuff. There are half a dozen totally different areas, sorta fitting together, many with multiple levels and a heckuvalot of overlap.

Fast forward to LoY. Is there *anything* in LoY that overlaps something else? My god, they even made the 2-level HF boat FLAT by moving the top level beside the bottom level. And umm LDoN? Oh there is that Tak tower one that sorta LOOKs 3d ...

NO dungeon in Luclin+ can hold a candle to the complexity and intricacy of the dungeon designs from original EQ, Kunark, and Luclin. You used to be able to get lost in dungeons. You used to "get to know your way around" them .. even if you had a map you had to understand it. Crystal Caverns, Velks, Chardok, Sebilis, Dalnirs, Kurns, Solusek, Guk, Befallen, and perhaps 'the queen dungeon' Kedge Keep were FUN just in their design. What the heck happened? Now we get these flat dungeons that seem SO much less creative than the dungeons of old. Phooey. They are no improvement, except maybe for those with no patience to actually feel and learn their way around but rather need that stupid ingame flat map to help them put one foot in front of the other.

flush · March 11, 2004, 06:56:59 PM

Design flaws caused by Z-axis issues.

I hate dungeons with multiple levels. You pull a mob within your sight and something else aggros directly above it by proximity.

BloodCelt · March 11, 2004, 07:02:36 PM

Quote from: flushDesign flaws caused by Z-axis issues.

I hate dungeons with multiple levels. You pull a mob within your sight and something else aggros directly above it by proximity.

I just call that Bonus Pulling

BC

Rumtum Tugger · March 11, 2004, 07:47:44 PM

Woo Hoo, loved that about lower guk, walk in with lowbie rogue to try and get the mask and mobs from the room above and the floor below would agro. Ah the good old days.

Rixis · March 11, 2004, 08:41:14 PM

Quote from: BloodCelt
Quote from: flushDesign flaws caused by Z-axis issues.

I hate dungeons with multiple levels. You pull a mob within your sight and something else aggros directly above it by proximity.

I just call that Bonus Pulling

BC

8)

Yes, it seems as though designers have decided to go with flat dungeons to not deal with the z-axis ...Or they're just plain lazy.

Dungeons have lacked some personality and distinctness after Velious. I think SOE must apply rapid application development to their designs now :P

I'd rather deal with some pathing issues and fight in a creatively designed dungeon like OS or Velk's than in someplace like Akheva or Grieg's.

Dungeons have also gotten "wider" in my experience. They aren't filled with compact hallways and those "nooks -n- crannies".

bugman · March 11, 2004, 09:42:21 PM

lguk is still my favourite dungeon, ill still occasionally get lost! having so many twists, turns and multi levels in one dungeon was bad, but then they added undead AND live mobs, with a mix of mobs that didnt see itu with ones that did (the imfamous bats). its just a beautifully designed dungeon and was quite the challenge (when not overcamped which granted depending on server was rare).

Llorath · March 11, 2004, 10:50:06 PM

My personal favorite dungeon is sebilis.

LARGE, the real feeling of "going deep down into the depths of the earth" that a good dungeon should have, lots of nooks and crannies, even with a map you still need to sort of know your way around, AND with the bonus of having a "boss mob" way at the bottom.

Dungeons have been fairly sucky for a while in eq now though, since the wonderful mastery that was sebilis.

Rumtum Tugger · March 11, 2004, 10:59:28 PM

We did Chardok for cleric epic and I was playing my rogue. Nothing like the feeling you get when you try to move out of the way of the puller at the door and suddenly fall into the royal room. I hit hide sneak on the way down and survived, the puller did not. He was stuck on the wrong side of the door with no way to open it.

There are, though not many, layered areas in a few of the new places. Veksar has an odd mix with underwater area. And Torigrin mines caught me by surprise with the sudden drop into water as well. But nothing on par with Seb Guk and even Black Burrow. That place is confusing no matter how you slice it. :D

TerjynPovar · March 11, 2004, 11:01:22 PM

I don't think you should include Velious. Velk's Lab was just obnoxious, and felt thrown together to me...anybody can throw together a 3-D maze with no real rhyme or reason. Mischief is just like Velk's, completely random. Tower of Frozen Shadow? I don't think that was truly verticle, but can't tell for sure since I haven't been there in ages. ToV? Bleach. Never seen Sleeper's Tomb, so can't comment on that.

Argach · March 11, 2004, 11:33:59 PM

ToV has a great feeling to it, one of the best zones in EQ IMO. And Velks might've had stupid people and easy mobs, but the place is still very neat and has way more character to it than the newer zones. You can hate Velks and the slippery 3d maze, but it doesn't leave you indifferent as easily as some LDoN_01_mission_easy.

I think the instances work when raiding - when grouping it reduces immersion when ye know this place appeared for you and will vanish after a while. Trains, shouts, oocs ... they might suck but they add a certain something to the game, that's why I never shied away from KC, Velks, BoT.

Anyways, I fully agree that dungeons have been in steady decline since Kunark, the ultimate dungeon expansion. Veksar was fun for a bit, but it is not deadly enough and has perhaps too many too open spaces for the real claustrophobic dungeon experience. Chardok B and Sol C were ok, Hate's Fury wasn't too bad .. but they are all really PITA to get to, not just pain to move around but pain to get to the ZI to.

They should make a new CT (that is, not revamp it yet again but make a new zone in the same format and feeling) - used to love that place when it was still hard and the loot was real jackpot to get. Just give mobs hard LDoN dps, make some areas safe to move with invis, scatter loads of ph's with rare names that drop good (90-125 hp), tradable req61 level gear. Hard pulls, some bloody annoying caster mobs, put a few raid events here and there in spots where they don't grief the xp camps and it'd be a winner.

TerjynPovar · March 12, 2004, 01:29:10 AM

Hmm...I've been all over ToV, and while the fights were pretty interesting, the zone itself was quite bland.

Velk's having character is a matter of opinion I guess. I don't hate Velk's, I think somebody just threw a bunch of crap together and called it a maze. It's like somebody who develops a maze by using a random combination of \s and /s. Yes, you end up with a maze. No, it's not an interesting maze.

Lower Guk, Sebilis, Chardok, Charasis...nothing since has quite the feel of those zones. Well, nothing indoors anyway. A few outdoor zones have been fairly amazing since.

Ukator Iceblood · March 12, 2004, 03:18:52 AM

I hate Velks.
Love the feel of Torg Mines, lots of neat stuff, hidden here and there, and the different spots in it "feel" different from each other. Veksar is nice also. Heck I really like Acrylia Caverns.
Seb is my favorite though. Dangerous, neat camps, great feel, raid mob, it had everything.

Kuriosity · March 12, 2004, 05:45:20 PM

I dunno, I though Ssra was somewhat 3d and complex, reminded me of chardok on a larger scale, or even howling stones.

Strigori · March 12, 2004, 06:12:30 PM

I think the biggest reason the newer dungeons arnt full of nooks and crannies is simply becuase the big bag mobs that drop the loots tend to be in the bottom of the dungeons, and if you ever went on a pick up naggy raid back before PoP you know what kind of mess it is with 50 people trying to run around in a dungeon full of little rooms and tiny hallways.

TheOriginalGronker · March 12, 2004, 08:27:49 PM

Sorry .. you can like HF, Torigans, or Veksar all you want, but they are examples of the lack of creativity from the level designers. Gone is the feeling you get out of delving down into Befallen, wondering how you'll remember you way out of LGuk, and the insane labyrinth that is Kedge. Now we're fed NSEW-based flat LDoN dungeons and basically the same boring flat 2d wide-open spaces of GoD/LoY.

Dungeons in EQ USED to be designed by creative, meticulous, and crafty individuals that obviously spent much more time in the layout and architecture than the graphics for a tapestry hanging on a wall like in the newer ones. Velious showed the beginning of the end of this ... probably due to a time crunch, ToV, PoMischief, and Sleepers was designed as big flat zones probably due to lack-of-resources. "Sorry, PoMischief sounds like a damn awesome idea and I know you have no experience designing a dungeon, but its all yours we'll get Fred who makes all our outdoor zones help you get started.". Then years later, the bosses kid needs a summer job and you get "PoMischief revamp" when he/she repopulates the zone with new mobs/loot.

Give me a good new dungeon!