That dungeon she's flat! No she's round!

[Rumtum Tugger]

True enough, no enough twists and turns.  I now see where your going.  I would not mind a real set of tunnels guf out of the hill like a very large worm would, or something like a real warren or ground hog / ant hill / termite mound.  Would be hell getting in and out again.  
I have tried using real and in game mapps in kedge and frankly I can't navigate it.  Wait, is that a good thing?  :D

[Rumtum Tugger]

Sure wish I had an edit button, blah.

[TerjynPovar]

You are using Befallen as an example of what the dungeons of today should strive to be?

Befallen is still to this day one of the worst designed zones in EverQuest.

And of all the original dungeons/hunting areas (Befallen, Paw, Guk, Solusek A/B, Cazicthule, Kedge, Runnyeye, Mistmoore, Crushbone, Blackburrow, Unrest) Befallen is by far the worst in my opinion.

Befallen has a lot of what I don't like about Velk's and Mischief in it.  It feels thrown together.  It was the first real attempt at a progressive zone in EQ and it failed, miserably.

[Grbage]

SOE is probably doing this on purpose so people will actually use the dungeons. A lot of people want easy or they wont go. Lets use SRO adventures as an example. It has the reputation of being the hardest LDoN to do so no one wants to do them. I take every guk adv that comes my way. Done 9 so far and I got LDoN a couple of days after it came out.

[quinalla]

Tower of Frozen Shadow?  I don't think that was truly verticle, but can't tell for sure since I haven't been there in ages.

ToFS is not technically vertical since you click on paintings and the like to move between the floors, but you get the sense that you are moving up the tower.  Besides, that zone is just cool IMO :)

I really liked Velks as well, it didn't feel thrown together to me, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.  However, Velks still has some of the weirdest graphical errors (you see a mob on the first floor that is really way high up on one of the ice walkways and more) probably because of the z-axis issues.

And Befallen, ugh, that dungeon is a nightmare.  The best is when you fall somewhere that you cannot figure out how to get out of (there may be places in there you can't get out of without gating or something similar if you don't already have the key), aggro 20 mobs and die.  Yup, lots of bad memories of that zone thank goodness for high level friends.  The rest of the dungeons I do love, even if they were a pain sometimes.

I think part of the reason for flat dungeons is that a lot of people don't want to bother with multi-level dungeons, or any twisty, easy to get lost in dungeons.  Heck, most people barely make it past the bandit camp area in PC and don't explore the relatively simple tunnels with the bugs.  I have leveled numerous characters on those bugs, always running straight past the overcrowded bandit camps and the annoying disease proccing mobs.  I never see anyone in Sol A except clerics camping epic pieces and people PLing and that dungeon has excellent exp.  Sol B has a few more folks, but still fairly empty.  Sure there are still people who love to go to those places, but the majority would rather not bother.  Also, most dungeons are quite distant from a rezzing class or a corpse-summoning class (or SoS rogue).  Ever try to get a corpse out of permafrost by yourself or have a group/raid wipe in the Hole?  And we all know how much folks want their rez.

[Grolck]

Personally i've never found veksar to have the same "flat" feel as the others; I actually think the design is quite good. As for the others, Not only are the designs flat, they lack personality. I can go through dozens of adventures in a particular theme, and it only feels like 2 different dungeons (castle and cave). Screw the pathing issues etc, i'd take seblis any day over these.

[celodar]

I don't mind artistically designed dungeons, provided mobs path decently, and my warder doesn't decide to kill itself because it was around a bend of a tunnel with me.  Outdoor caves/tunnels annoy me (the tunnels in loio, cragwurm caves, the luggald caves in dulak), as mobs don't have pathing code, ergo they get stuck in walls, and either fall to bottom of zone, or just suicide.

All I ask in dungeon design that there arn't goofy places that pets randomly will suicide at.

[Dorrogtr T`A]

I must have just woken up or something.  Velious was the last expansion that actually had .. 'round dungeons'.  Luclin, PoP, LoY, and now GoD are all full of flat dungeons.  I think they got some different level designers in between somewhere.  Or different dungeon-designing rules - maybe to make it 'easier' on everyone.  Take Velks .. for lack of a better example.  Its a freakin 3d dungeon with every nook-n-cranny jam packed with stuff.  There are half a dozen totally different areas, sorta fitting together, many with multiple levels and a heckuvalot of overlap.

Fast forward to LoY.  Is there *anything* in LoY that overlaps something else?  My god, they even made the 2-level HF boat FLAT by moving the top level beside the bottom level.  And umm LDoN?  Oh there is that Tak tower one that sorta LOOKs 3d ...

NO dungeon in Luclin+ can hold a candle to the complexity and intricacy of the dungeon designs from original EQ, Kunark, and Luclin.  You used to be able to get lost in dungeons.  You used to "get to know your way around" them .. even if you had a map you had to understand it.  Crystal Caverns, Velks, Chardok, Sebilis, Dalnirs, Kurns, Solusek, Guk, Befallen, and perhaps 'the queen dungeon' Kedge Keep were FUN just in their design.  What the heck happened?  Now we get these flat dungeons that seem SO much less creative than the dungeons of old.  Phooey.  They are no improvement, except maybe for those with no patience to actually feel and learn their way around but rather need that stupid ingame flat map to help them put one foot in front of the other.

Er... Nadox, and Dulak Hidden Caves?

[TheOriginalGronker]

Fast forward to LoY.  Is there *anything* in LoY that overlaps something else?  My god, they even made the 2-level HF boat FLAT by moving the top level beside the bottom level.  And umm LDoN?  Oh there is that Tak tower one that sorta LOOKs 3d ...

Er... Nadox, and Dulak Hidden Caves?

Nadox and Dulak (including the 'hidden caves') have nothing overlapping at all in them.  Hell you can't even fall off of the bridges and stone walkways there.

Personally i've never found veksar to have the same "flat" feel as the others

Well whether it feels like it or not, it is.  Look at the map.  Its all there on one level.  Heck, the designer even made it fit into his rectangular 'graph paper'.  Compare to LGuk.  Veksar gotta be one of the 'dumbest' maps out there.  North Karana is just as complex.

It takes <10% of the creativity to grab a piece of paper (or your drawing tool) and draw some passages, plunk down some houses, etc onto a FLAT base as it does to make a 3d dungeon.

Befallen is still to this day one of the worst designed zones in EverQuest.

Bad or good, part of the challenge to that dungeon was the design.  You could get LOST.  Consider Blackburrow or even Splitpaw ... you can't just say "oh how do we get out, ah just follow the walls/passages clockwise and you'll be out" cuz that just wouldn't work.  Places to swim under and through, ramps and twists and turns and .. everything that no new dungeon has.  Lets see someone get lost in an LDoN dungeon ...

[TerjynPovar]

Getting lost is not what makes a dungeon good.  Befallen is a bad dungeon no matter how you slice it...give me *any* of the LDoN dungeons or Ykesha zones as they are all better designed than Befallen is.

It takes <10% of the creativity to grab a piece of paper (or your drawing tool) and draw some passages, plunk down some houses, etc onto a FLAT base as it does to make a 3d dungeon.

This is patently false.  It takes zero creativity to just throw down a random 3d map, same as a random 2d map.

you can't just say "oh how do we get out, ah just follow the walls/passages clockwise and you'll be out" cuz that just wouldn't work.

Here, again, you are wrong.  This is exactly how I get out of Split Paw and Blackburrow.  You do know there is actually a 3-D version of the Right hand rule yes?  And not one dungeon in the game is complex enough that the 3-D version doesn't work (unless they do crap like locked doors w/ long key camps, AKA Befallen...and again this doesn't make for a good zone, just an obnoxious one)

[TheOriginalGronker]

Getting lost is not what makes a dungeon good.  

Being able to get lost is a good thing to me, and a LOT of fantasy RPGers out there.  There is a degree of challenge here just from the architecture that is unattainable from a flat map.  You can agree or not, it doesn't matter.

Befallen is a bad dungeon no matter how you slice it...give me *any* of the LDoN dungeons or Ykesha zones as they are all better designed than Befallen is.<snip>unless they do crap like locked doors w/ long key camps, AKA Befallen

You keep saying this without any reasons.  Anyways, I don't care if you like befallen or not, or whether you like LDoN dungeons or Ykesha dungeons.  That isn't my point.  I don't care if they are pretty, or the environmental sounds are cute.  I don't care if mobs drop keys to unlock doors.  They are 'dumb' dungeons (for lack of a better term).  There is no argueing with this, its a fact.  Whether you like it or not is moot.  

It takes <10% of the creativity to grab a piece of paper (or your drawing tool) and draw some passages, plunk down some houses, etc onto a FLAT base as it does to make a 3d dungeon.

This is patently false.  It takes zero creativity to just throw down a random 3d map, same as a random 2d map.

Thats nice.  We were talking about the crafted maps in EQ, not 'random' ones.  Btw, if you take more than 0 time thinking about this, you'd realize its you who are 'patently' wrong.  3d map MUST be more difficult than a 2d map.

you can't just say "oh how do we get out, ah just follow the walls/passages clockwise and you'll be out" cuz that just wouldn't work.

Here, again, you are wrong.  This is exactly how I get out of Split Paw and Blackburrow. You do know there is actually a 3-D version of the Right hand rule yes?

Sorry, you are the one wrong here (no, she's flat .. no she's round!).  You can't get out of anywhere in Blackburrow in that way.  And yeesh don't tell me that "right-hand rule" is now a dungeoneering term completely unrelated to the actual origins ...  :roll:   Time for a new rant ...

And not one dungeon in the game is complex enough that the 3-D version doesn't work (unless they do crap like locked doors w/ long key camps, AKA Befallen...and again this doesn't make for a good zone, just an obnoxious one)

You obviously don't see the point.  I even agree completely the key thing for befallen was a bad implementation - but that has NOTHING to do with the point.  I think .... no actually I know ... that EQ would have been much more fun and challenging if every dungeon has a little 'befallen-ness' incorporated into it - not the keys, but the level design.  PHOOEY on the flat maps.

[mac173]

And yeesh don't tell me that "right-hand rule" is now a dungeoneering term completely unrelated to the actual origins ...

Actually, a maze would be rather refreshing. A 3-D maze would be.......empty. None but a few hard liners who want to experience the challenge again.

[TerjynPovar]

Thats nice.  We were talking about the crafted maps in EQ, not 'random' ones.  Btw, if you take more than 0 time thinking about this, you'd realize its you who are 'patently' wrong.  3d map MUST be more difficult than a 2d map.

This is not true.  You obviously have never dealth with this type of things...in many cases a 3d zone is just a 2-dimensional zone with an algorithm applied to make some things 3D.  When you do this, it's 3d, but it is not more complicated than a 2D zone, at all.  While it *can* be more complicated, it doesn't *have* to be.

Sorry, you are the one wrong here (no, she's flat .. no she's round!).  You can't get out of anywhere in Blackburrow in that way.

So you are telling me that in spite of the fact that this is exactly how I get out of Blackburrow, and have since pre-Kunark, that I now cannot do it?

And yeesh don't tell me that "right-hand rule" is now a dungeoneering term completely unrelated to the actual origins ...  :roll:   Time for a new rant ...

There are many many definitions of the Right-hand rule.  One of them is to in a maze always head the direction of your right hand.  This is the right-hand rule I was referring to...obviously, since we aren't discussing EM theory in Physics here.  And there is a 3D version of the Right Hand rule, which can and does work in Split Paw, Blackburrow, and Lower Guk.  This is *fact*.

You obviously don't see the point.  I even agree completely the key thing for befallen was a bad implementation - but that has NOTHING to do with the point.  I think .... no actually I know ... that EQ would have been much more fun and challenging if every dungeon has a little 'befallen-ness' incorporated into it - not the keys, but the level design.  PHOOEY on the flat maps.

So you really are saying that 3D maps and getting lost is *ALL* you care about.  Well, more power to you.  It still doesn't mean that Befallen is better than a flat design by any reasonable interpretation.  Remove the keys and all mobs from Befallen, and there is still nothing interesting about the zone at all.

[Hrann]

I have to admit, I like Infected Paw, Lower Guk and Blackburrow, but I don't like Befallen at all.

However, the LoY zones are very nice as well.  I especially like Nadox, but the mix between tight passageways and huge caverns is nice.  Veksar doesn't feel flat to me at all, whether it is or not (?), and I really feel like I'm deep inside something when I go hunt in there.

Overall, there's certainly a different approach between the different dungeons of different eras, probably because different artists worked on them.  I wouldn't necessarily say the original ones were way better; possibly a bit more vertical, and possibly they appeal more to certain types of gamers.

[TerjynPovar]

If you go back earlier in the thread you'll note that I mostly agree with Gronker, that old world dungeons are more interesting, I love Cazicthule and Lower Guk and the like.

What I disagree with is that the reason they are more interesting is purely because they are 3D.

Unrest is 3-D, but Veksar is far more interesting, as an example.