That dungeon she's flat! No she's round!

[TheOriginalGronker]

You obviously have never dealth with this type of things...in many cases a 3d zone is just a 2-dimensional zone with an algorithm applied to make some things 3D.

Have you been in any of the dungeons I'm calling 3d?   I've dungeon designed since before PacMan was showing up in pinball arcades btw.   I don't know why you can't see it - its common sense.

So you are telling me that in spite of the fact that this is exactly how I get out of Blackburrow, and have since pre-Kunark, that I now cannot do it?

You are lucky then.  Pretty funny ... maybe go and explain in words one of these rules that will get you up from just where the master brewer spawns to ANY zoneout .. if you aren't on that last ramp a left- or right-hand rule won't get you to daylight.  :roll:

So you really are saying that 3D maps and getting lost is *ALL* you care about.  Well, more power to you.  It still doesn't mean that Befallen is better than a flat design by any reasonable interpretation.  Remove the keys and all mobs from Befallen, and there is still nothing interesting about the zone at all.

You just say these things to argue randomly?  Scroll wayyy back up and see what my rant is about.  Pre-luclin dungeons had a fun and challenging design ... post-luclin dungeon design is flat and dull and brainless.  Heck, I have a crapload of fun in Veksar and SolC ... but I'd be embarrassed to have designed these places when over 4 years previously someone had made SolA/B or Blackburrow, or Chardok, or  ... <insert old world/kunark/most velious dungeon name here>.  Please, someone challange us with a 'maze' rather than dumb it down with a bunch of right-angles contained snugly in a rectangle.

[Hzark]

While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments in the first post in this thread, I think it is very unfair to knock the designer of Veksar for having fit it all into a rectangle.

If you have ever swum around the outside of Veksar, you can see that the whole zone is supposed to be contained in a domed (rectangular) structure at the bottom of the LOIO.

I am not sure if that structure was already there prior to the opening of the zone, but in any case, the story line would require it to be a similar structure.

Given the external constraints, I think the designer(s) made an excellent job of making an interesting dungeon in a tight space. (Even if I do find it hard to believe that the inside of Vesar would acvtually fit inside the dimensions of the outside - but I may be wrong, maybe it actually does).

I love the "mission impossible" feel of Veksar, dodging in and out of various areas, switching from invis to ITU at the right moments, and nonchalantly rescuing the corpses of those who got that part wrong.

Great fun.

So knock the other 2-D dungeons, but not Veksar, it is great.

[TerjynPovar]

Have you been in any of the dungeons I'm calling 3d?   I've dungeon designed since before PacMan was showing up in pinball arcades btw.   I don't know why you can't see it - its common sense.

You caught me.  I've been playing since March 99 and I've never been in any of these dungeons.  Your skills at deduction are amazing.

You can map most of Guk in 2D.  You can map Split Paw in 2D.  Hell, Split paw basically *IS* 2-D.  The only thing that makes it not is that you can jump off a bridge and skip a bunch of the dungeon.  (In spite of this, Split Paw is far more interesting than Befallen, a "true 3-D" zone).  Of those three, Blackburrow is the only one you can't easily map in 2-D.  I'm sorry that you refuse to see this.

You are lucky then.  Pretty funny ... maybe go and explain in words one of these rules that will get you up from just where the master brewer spawns to ANY zoneout .. if you aren't on that last ramp a left- or right-hand rule won't get you to daylight.  :roll:

Well, all I can say is lose the condescending attitude.  Obviously if I've been using this rule ot get out I don't know the zone well enough to even know where the Brewer is.  I started as a High Elf and there was no reason to travel to Blackburrow as an Elf.  The only times I've been in there has been as a high leveler either helping somebody out, factioning in Qeynos, or running from Jaggedpine to EF or Qeynos hills.  I can and do use this rule to get from the Jaggedpine entrance to the surface repeatedly.  By the way, in the 3-D version of the rule you occasionally have to skip a path, or treat an entire area as a "Room".

Pre-luclin dungeons had a fun and challenging design ... post-luclin dungeon design is flat and dull and brainless.  Heck, I have a crapload of fun in Veksar and SolC ... but I'd be embarrassed to have designed these places when over 4 years previously someone had made SolA/B or Blackburrow, or Chardok, or  ... <insert old world/kunark/most velious dungeon name here>.  Please, someone challange us with a 'maze' rather than dumb it down with a bunch of right-angles contained snugly in a rectangle.

This is complete opinion.  I do not agree.  What made old world dungeons great was *everything* about them, not just the damn maze which underlines the dungeon.

You are, in fact, saying, and have been from the beginning that the maze was all you cared about, even if the maze was stupid and thrown together (Befallen, Velketor's).  It takes more than someone slapping together some 3-D aspects to impress me.

[TerjynPovar]

Furthermore, since I started to think about the Split Paw thing:

Zones in PoP which are 3-D.

Bastion of Thunder
Doomfire, the Burning Lands
Drunder, Fortress of Zek
Eryslai, the Kingdom of Wind
Plane of Justice
Plane of Knowledge
Plane of Torment
Tower of Solusek Ro

And those are only the ones I know of.

Oh, let me guess, those aren't "dungeons"?

[Bryc]

PoJ is a fairly confusing dungeon, easily as convoluted as KC. It's probably the worst dungeon as far as roamers, and pretty bad for runners. Perma-sowed rats, what's that all about??

As far as Veksar, imo it's one of the best dungeon designs since Kunark. Everything about is it consistent with it being a sunken city, travel for one area to another is a real pain, loot is worth fighting for, and aggro is a constant threat.

[Hzark]

Ssraeza Temple seems fairly 3D to me.

(Especially since the patch, when the mobs on the 2nd floor keep getting pushed through the wall, falling into the basement and summoning people).

[Bulge]

He, I agree with you, Gronk. There are more ways to make a dungeon interesting, but an intricate 3-D design is sure one of them.

THey are the most fun when the "level-above-level" design makes sense.  For instance in Upper Guk you have the mushrooms which are on a lower level then a lot of the dungeon: it  looks as if this is their "pen" where the frogloks keep their musrooms. In other dungeons there are jail-cells which are often lower level with ramps between these pits where the guards walk and keep an eye on the prisoners. Befallen was a fun dungeon for sure, I  loved it. It wasn't great for actual xp-hunting but the whole feel was eerie and exploring it was great. Getting the key's was never really a problem, since I am the patient kind of guy.

I think Befallen conveys the feel of an underground Palace that has fallen into ruin over decades very well.

However, compared to dungeons in other mmorpgs, even EQ's latest dungeons are marvels of design. Talk about a flat design of the world.....one of the things I keep bugging the EQ2 forums with, is wether they are staying true to the original EQ's design of zones, areas and dungeons.  :)