Oh you have to be kidding me! (Rogues and "class balan

TerjynPovar · March 25, 2004, 01:03:16 AM

Magicians, Paladins, Monks, Shaman, and now our new best friend...Rogues.

That's right folks, some rogues are now pointing at Beastlords as "too close to their level of DPS" and thus we are overpowered and Rogues need an upgrade. Now I'm not uber...but come on. Can anyone out there point me to a parse that shows a Beastlord even getting close to the DPS level of a Rogue? I'm genuinely curious to see this.

Why are we the whipping boy lately? Frankly the only thing it would take to top things off would be if Bards started stating that BSTs were overpowered.

For those wondering I saw this on the Newbie Forum of Sony's official boards...but cannot find the post now.

Murkk Dakruul · March 25, 2004, 02:08:43 AM

Thats why they call it the "newbie" forum.

The Kittenpeeler · March 25, 2004, 02:59:19 AM

See, they should mush everything down into six classes.

Fighters melee stuff
Casters blow stuff up
Scouts explore, pull, and melee some
Mindwarpers do the crowd control and mindbuffing
Healers... duh
Debuffers cripple the critters.

Boom. Full group, full effectiveness.

TerjynPovar · March 25, 2004, 05:18:41 AM

They call it the newbie forum, but the Rogues in question were Time level rogues...and anybody who disagreed was met with a "You aren't in Elemental Planes+, you don't understand". Quite obviously the followers and not the people who truly understand what they are doing, but still these weren't level 5 Rogues complaining.

Coprolith · March 25, 2004, 06:50:43 AM

Time level rogues or not, posting complaints in the newbie forum makes you a newbie as far as im concerned :D

/hugs

Dakat · March 25, 2004, 09:02:31 AM

With the same amount of aa of a time geared rogue, I am pretty sure we have a higher DPS then a rogue of equal or close in aa/level. Even with the rogue huge backstabs.

A fellow Beastlord has this and the pet augment which allows pet to quad for 89.

Vanazir, Dreamer's Despair

From standing side by side killing the same type mob in Plane of Innovation. Her with this, me with just epics for the test. She dropped 3 mobs to my 1. We both have combat fury 3 and Spell cast fury 3. She has an augment that made her nukes hit for more also the aug that effects cold based nukes hitting for more.

On the weapon, normal hits she averaged 396 per hit and usually double hit every round. She would crit a couple times per fight highest was in the 600s w/o using any discipline.

With max stats using epics, highest I hit is 90. Never 4 in a row I'd say average of 56 to 70. Never in a continuous folly of hits either.

I could see though that this Beastlord could possibly outdue a rogue of same level/aa.

Dakat · March 25, 2004, 09:05:55 AM

PS. With her pet maxed on dmg output GOD aa's. Her maxed on crits, procs and other aa with her and pet together would outdo a rogue.

Argach · March 25, 2004, 09:40:07 AM

Uhm, Dakat ... VDD is pretty bad dps weapon for a high-end beastlord. There is no way for any beastlord, uber or not "usually double hit every round" - max we get is capped double-riposte (which doesn't do much, even with a 2hb), and capped BF (15% double attack chance). Her pet might've been time focused, and while I can't remember how much dps that gives, I doubt she was doing a lot over 200 dps, sustained, but that's just a wild guess, max hit numbers don't tell anything (the weapon that has highest max hit in my weapon bag has the lowest dps, for example).

Here is a thread where high-end rogues talk about their sustained and burst dps. They seem to agree they can break 300 (I assume without a bard or Quarm overhaste), sustained, but that's about it.

My highest, sustained, is 203 dps with a bard when I wasn't slowing, during an ~hour lasting hard LDoN. We had a time-geared guildie group, pretty close to optimal enviroment for max beastlord dps: knight tank, bard singing rizlona and mana, VoQ and SoV. I have capped atk but I haven't capped all my damage-related AAs and I don't have a shinai but I do have ED and EPW - pretty high-end tools for beastlord damage (and significantly better than VDD). Also I was lacking pet affinity back then, so I guess there's some room for improvement, but even if I can do 230 sustained dps, I'd still be 100 behind equally geared and AA'd rogue.

Besides, rogues are supposed to get the assasin strike line, whining or no whining. As soon as SoE gets it done... -_-;;;[/url]

Murkk Dakruul · March 25, 2004, 10:42:17 AM

I parse every single raid we do in empire. Our rogues are always, I mean always, as in 100% of the time, the highest DPS class. Yes above the wizards.

Yes, I can do some pretty ridiculous damage if I use bestial alignment, frenzy of spirit, our damage disc, none of my spells get resisted and half my nukes crit. Too bad that happens 1 time out of 100. And yet it doesn't stop random_time_equipped_bst_001 from telling everyone "I do 400 DPS!".

Misinformation is the suck. Beastlords get close to rogue DPS in only the rarest, most unrealistic situations.

P.S.
VDD isn't even in the top 5 of our best DPS setups. Basing your opinion off of staring at your monitor and going "wow!" at lots of high numbers is how all this garbage gets spread. Parsing is the only way.

Evandar · March 25, 2004, 03:20:38 PM

I could probably do around 400 DPS.. That is when I get some lucky procs on my ED. Did 4 procs (2 critted) on a mob that died in under 10 secs. Sustained DPS you say? Noway! You can get 10 000 DPS if your an SK and one shot kill a mob with a good HT. Anyway, DPS is really irrelevant, DPM or DPH tho, thats the thing people should be looking to improve :)

Mindlet · March 26, 2004, 12:00:39 AM

Our guild is elemental but we have had really bad luck getting rogue daggers. We haven't had 1 off MM or Sol Ro and haven't done Fennin yet so rogues have at best BoT daggers with 1 having an auged LDoN dagger. He is always the highest of the rogues but not always the highest dps. There has never been a fight when a BST alone has been close to rogue dps however there are fights when the combined bst/warder dps is very close to what the rogues put out. I know that if we get some better daggers we will be back on top.

Bryc · March 26, 2004, 02:40:41 AM

Quote
You can get 10 000 DPS if your an SK and one shot kill a mob with a good HT

On my 60 Druid, I made a bet with my wife that I could parse over 400dps in an LDoN. I ended up parsing even higher - and I was main healer.

One moonfire when the mob is at <10% health. Every 2nd or 3rd mob. Total fight time (for me) 1-3 seconds. Total damage 1150-1380. 450ish dps, parsed.

Unless heavily qualified, DPS calculations mean very little. It's total damage that counts.

Murkk Dakruul · March 26, 2004, 04:51:13 AM

I completly agree. I always rank our DPS'ers on total damage over DPS.

TerjynPovar · March 26, 2004, 01:48:48 PM

I'm sorry Bryc, but DPS doesn't work that way, not at all.

Well, I suppose it could, but that's pointless. You weren't measuring DPS, you were measuring Burst Damage, which are two completely seperate concepts.

Kinash · March 26, 2004, 05:20:54 PM

My alt is a level 24 Vah Shir Rogue. I read the crying, whining posts about the new "useless" disciplines. Well... it is a whole line of disciplines but they only care about the highest level. I like having the Sneak Attack. It gives me something I didn't have before. And I bet that there are plenty of high level Rogues who aren't Elemental-Ubers that will find the higher level ones useful.

I notice in most boards that only the complainers tend to write messages. Because we see all these complaining threads we assume that the other 20-40 thousand players effected (most that don't read boards or post)agree with their own narrow viewpoint. How many Uber-Rogues are there out there anyway? Should SOE just create skills or disciplines with them in mind?