Agility, what's it good for?

[Nunyabiz]

In fact, after the parse results on AGI came in SOE admitted that AGI doesnt have much effect

Link please  :wink:

I t certainly doesnt hurt to raise your AGI "as long as you don't sacrifice any other stats" especially since you would have to actively avoid AGI in order to not raise it if you concentrated on HP/ac.

OH so thats exactly how i needed to word it eh, hmmm thats what ive saying all along freak.

to a guy who clearly stated that his gear is Bazaar bought and therefore cannot possibly max out his AGI without sacrificing a huge number of his other stats. You advised everyone and their grandmother to up their AGI without mentioning they get much better benefits from other stats.

Just how do you figure that? Look at Grys megelo AGI 2nd highest stat and not even trying. next BS please

If not: shut up, you have no claim, your belief in the effect of AGI has no weight whatsoever against all those parses. If yes: /applaud, im looking forward to it.

ROTFL   hahahah   So i cant even claim what you just got through saying that AGI supposedly did now eh?

HA HA LOL 2.5% per 100AGI is now even toooo much for the mighty Copr to swallow? LOL
Get a freaking gripe dude.
Your even denying your own BS now

[Grymlok]

I'm one or two steps away from bazaar gear.

[Gremkin]

Board trolls amuse me.  You, Nunya, are a board troll to the nth degree.  Thank you for that last 20 minutes of utter hilarity as I read your posts.

[Coprolith]

Okiedokie. The original posts are long gone of course but the paladin board still has this thread in its archives (im sure if you ask around on the rogue or warrior board there'll be old timers there who'll confirm this. While you're at it, do a search for 'agility' on every melee class board). Its a very long read and not all of it is relevant but here's the important bit; Brad Mcquaid (sp?) reply to the storm of complaints after the first parse results came in

In working with the people doing the strategy guide for Kunark we decided to provide them with general information as to what the stats do.
I'm going to post them here.

This is a change in the sense that we were not going to discuss them or release more info. We changed our minds.

That said, we're not posting any formulas, and it's absolutely true that some stats have considerably more direct impact on gameplay than others.

We're posting this for clarification, and because previous explanations have not been accurate (manual, etc). We will not, however, engage in debate and our stance on how much some stats affect game play is that it's by design to inhibit some aspects of twinking. Are there better attribute systems out there? Yeah, but we're not going to change something as fundamental as a stat system in EQ after the game's been out for more than a year.

Anyway, here you go:

DEX: how quickly you learn weapon skills; how often weapon will proc; how quickly you learn rogue skills; how hard you hit with bows

STR: determines how much you can carry; influences maximum and average damage; influences how quickly you learn many offensive skills

STA: affects how many hit points you have, how long you can hold your breath

INT: directly affects how quickly you can learn most skills; affects the amount of mana for bards and all mages, as well as shadow knights

WIS: affects the amount of mana the priest classes have, also rangers; also affects how quickly you can learn many skills if your wisdom is higher than INT.

CHA: affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you; affects the saving throw on certain bard and enchanter spells (charms in particular)

AGI: affects how quickly you can learn some defensive skills, how difficult it is to hit you as well as how much damage you take when you are hit

In other words: we deliberatedly made some attributes less important then others, but we won't tell you which one, figure it out yourself.

Which is exactly what people did, figure it out for themselves. Guess what they found? AGI meant crap, DEX meant crap cuz there hardly any weapons with procs on them, STR didnt mean much either. Raw AC and resists were king those days, because few items had +HPs on them. Priests poured everything into WIS, casters everything into INT. Some of that has changed over the years. Nowadays HPs are king for every class, STR has gotten an upgrade, and weapon procs add considerably to your dps. But AGI, the last time it was checked, is still doing next to nothing, and the hardest stat for a beastlord to max out to boot.
Perhaps a little history is in order as well. Back in those days, the popular parse programs like EQcompanion and Yalp didnt exist yet. Parsing 1000's of lines of logfile was a meticulous job using spreadsheets, which is why there were few parses in the first year of EQ's release. In the early days people wanted to believe that stats had significant effects, the manual and character creation screen certainly made it sound that way. Which is why, when the first parses came in there was such a strong reaction against SOE (still VI in those days)

Now its your turn:

I t certainly doesnt hurt to raise your AGI "as long as you don't sacrifice any other stats" especially since you would have to actively avoid AGI in order to not raise it if you concentrated on HP/ac.

OH so thats exactly how i needed to word it eh, hmmm thats what ive saying all along freak

Show me one instance, prior to, oh say, the third page of this thread, where you've said exactly this cuz i've just been going thru your posts on this board and the old one and i can't find any. While you're at it, please explain to us simple folk why, if this is what you've been saying all along, you were so vehemently denying the greater benefits of other stats earlier in this thread.

TTFN

[Nunyabiz]

Which is exactly what people did, figure it out for themselves. Guess what they found? AGI meant crap, DEX meant crap cuz there hardly any weapons with procs on them, STR didnt mean much either.

exactly what ive been saying....ALL stats ANY stat means very little in the overall scheme of things, be it Dex/Str/Sta/AGI all are only worth a small percentage.
and AGI is no worse than any of them, so I get 2.5% per 100 PLUS then AC, sounds damn good to me.
Whats 100Dex give ya? 2-3% better chance to proc? why exactly is that any better than 2-3% chance to get missed by a Mob plus a small amout of AC?
100Str? 2-3% or whatever average higher max hit?
100 Sta? depending on how much is over 255 thats what 300-350Hps?
That could be way less than 1 miss you could possibly gain from the 100AGI and extra AC.
I dont see ANY of them really ANY better than the other.
They are ALL very small percentages


Your biggest help BY FAR is your level then your AAs, nothing else comes close.

This is from my 2nd post on this thread and is what ive been saying the entire time you freak.

The ONLY things that have a hard percentage of anything are your AAs plain and simple.

RNG>All

ALL stats such as AC/AGI/Dex/Str etc give just a little bit better chance to mitigate/miss/proc/average hit and so on.

Your AGI/Dex/Str/Sta/Wis are all going to be maxed as you lvl anyway so arguing about what it does or doesnt do is rather pointless.

Best is to get as many HPs and AAs as you can manage those are the ONLY 2 things that really matter in the long run.

3rd
100AC means VERY little.
100HP means VERY little.
100Dex means VERY little.
etc

If your looking for the magic bullet its in your AAs.

The only thing that really means jack is CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE

Rest of it is just a very small percentage that all adds up no more no less.
and i did NOT tell that person to forgo everything else in favor of AGI, thats what you want to hear, in other words ITS IN YOUR HEADRNG>ALL then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.

have said it in just about every M----r Fing post.
Im just repeating myself to brick wall as usual.

None are really any better than the other, they are ALL way behind the stuff that really matters so once again i see no point in argueing when most if not all i say is either totally ignored or interpeted ass backwards and nitpiked adnausium and twisted by some fool into something im NOT SAYING.

you were so vehemently denying the greater benefits of other stats earlier in this thread.

Because there arent any stats with much "greater benefits" they are all so small it really dont matter all that much.
your the one that saying that ALL other stats have much greater benefits
ive just been saying none are really all that much better than the other and that there is nothing wrong with maxing your AGI along with everything else if you can.

None of your parses pr anyone elses have shown me jackshyte other than they are all mostly meaningless.


Just bump up your HPS and get as many AAs as you can and STFU

[Atropine_BB]

This was such a great read!

Kudos to those who spent so much time and effort into it.  You made at least 30 mins of boredom at work pass with ease.

Here is what it comes down to...

Raw HP = King (100+hp items in every slot)
1200 AC softcap
Defensive AA maxed

That is what is going to make a difference in actual playability.  In all actuality, it is the way you play the game that is what is truly important.  Actual game mechanics is not important as long as you are having fun with your friends.

[feralize]

Shit, are you blind? Did you read what McQuaid stated? Namely:

it's absolutely true that some stats have considerably more direct impact on gameplay than others

Now, read sloooowly...coonsideerably mooorre diiirect impaact on gaaameplaay thaan otheerrrs.

For example, 100 STA will give you about 450-500hp. Now I'm not uber in the slightest but 100 STA would increase my hp by over 10%!

Whats 100Dex give ya? 2-3% better chance to proc?

100Str? 2-3% or whatever average higher max hit?

Now I don't have firm numbers but I would stake all my pp that these give far more than a 2.5% difference to max hit and proc rate. Cop?

[Nunyabiz]

For example, 100 STA will give you about 450-500hp. Now I'm not uber in the slightest but 100 STA would increase my hp by over 10%!

Over 255 Sta you get like 2.4hp per 1 sta so like i said just depends on just how low your Sta is but from 205-305 should be something like 340Hp. thats 50@ 4.4 and [email protected]
IF your talking from 100-200 would be approx 440, and even then its entirely possible just a single missed hit from a Mob could save you more than that.  RNG>lvl>AA>AGI

I slowed a Mob last night that hits for 1400hp, and didnt even get touched before MT regained aggro, had like 5-6 Misses with a couple dodges and a block thrown in and i think even a reposte (and since im certain just that simple statement has already been misinterpeted to mean that dodge or block has anything whatsoever to do with AGI allow me to clarify for the fools trying so very hard to disprove every syllable i speak that NO its just another form of avoiding hits and its Skill based NOT AGI based).
but none the less I avoided ALL hits on that occaision and its "possible" that my 305 AGI "could" have been responsible for JUST ONE of those 1400hp Misses "theoretically" though the CA3/LR5/PE was obviously 90% more likely to have been the reason. but either way I'll take that extra 5-7% or whatever it is that the 225 AGI ive added to my char has given me not to mention the extra 60 or so AC from it.

I certainly dont think the extra 5-7% avoidance and 60 or so AC is worthless like everyone else that plays EQ does. thats just me, and still not sure why thats some crime.

Ive not now nor have I ever said to max your AGI and to hell with everything else, (that BS is from whomever wants so badly to disprove every single thing i say that they just see what they want to see) hell i wouldnt say that about ANY of them and no matter what the differences your stats make overall are minute compared to your lvl and AA


Now I don't have firm numbers but I would stake all my pp that these give far more than a 2.5% difference to max hit and proc rate. Cop?

Keep yer 2cp I could careless about "firm numbers" regardless what it is its a SMALL AMOUNT wether its 2% or 8% is basically meaningless.

RNG>ALL >then your LVL> then your AAs>then a distant----------last are ALL your Stats

/agree-----Atropine

[Ghoat]

Someone wanna layout the cause, effect & proof/feelings of life after death while we are at it?

[Scalewulf]

Okay Ghoat!  

My FEELINGS are that if you drink enough 200 PROOF liquor that it could have an EFFECT of an early DEATH with the intial CAUSE being the stresses of daily LIFE.  


Simple enough!

[Xuthaz]

The "extra AC" from AGI is what is giving you the increased Avoidance.  It is not 2.5% per 100 agi, + the AC.  The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate.

again your contradicting yourself.  you are clearly inferring here:

IF your talking from 100-200 would be approx 440, and even then its entirely possible just a single missed hit from a Mob could save you more than that. RNG>lvl>AA>AGI

that 100 agi is more important than 100 stamina.  you can claim that you've always been saying that stats aren't important (they aren't that important at the end game, as they'll all be maxed anyway) or that RNG>LVL>AA>everything>Stats, but you are clearing implying that your AGI is more important than stam in that above sentence, and you are making these cases to lvl 24 newbs like timmy the Vah Shir BST who are going to take that information and go out buy freaking +7 Agi rings instead of 6ac/65 hp rings and poor little timmy is going to get OWNED by bandits in Paludal.  And its all going to be your fault.

In case you've forgotten:

Avoidance = the absolute value of (AGIFactor + Defense * 16 / 9)

at level 65, 235 defense
75agi=39AGIFactor = 487 Avoidance AC
255 agi= 62 AGIFactor = 528 Avoidance AC
180 AGI = 41 Avoidance AC

[Nunyabiz]

The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate. Im just taking what your saying here exactly as it is written The AC itself is increasing your avoidance rate.

So your trying to tell me now that just 25AC (thats the AC you get from 100AGI) gives an extra 2.5% Avoidance?

So in other words what you "believe" is that if you up your AC from 1000 to just 1200 then you have just given yourself more Avoidance (20%) PLUS whatever small amount of Mitigation a leather wearer gets with 200AC than ALL my Defensive AAs combined?

and are you also trying to tell me the Warriors have this same AC=Avoidance rate?
So lets say a Warrior with 1800AC would have what 80% extra avoidance between 1000-1800AC?
Oh so here this whole time I thought Warriors were "Mitigating" these hits from these 3K+ hitting Mobs but there are actually not even getting hit.

Well must be sweet to be wearing Plate i guess with that virtually 100% Aviodance and all.


but you are clearing implying that your AGI is more important than stam in that above sentence

No I didnt, just said that its "Possible" which it is btw that if you get missed just ONCE by a Mob that Avoidance of which AGI is a "small" part of can and does save you more HPs than the maximum value that you could get from 100 Sta.
What i clearly inferred since you will notice i placed AGI as the least possible factor RNG>LVL>AA>AGI is that AGI does have "some" effect on being missed but that all other forms of avoidance are what is giving you 90+% of it. not sure how much clearer i can make this without basically writing a novel on each post for the comprehensive impaired


who are going to take that information and go out buy freaking +7 Agi rings instead of 6ac/65 hp rings

Just like the above statement that was completely misinterpeted I have never once said or even inferred any such thing, if they do then they like you deserve to be owned by Bandits in paludal.

ALL im saying and ALL i have been saying this entire thread is that the Avoidance i get from the AGI ive added to my char which going by what the so called parses say , not my opinion, but exactly what you all are saying is that its approx 5-7% extra avoidance and 60ish AC.
And that i find that to have a bit more value i guess than every single person 450,000 other people that play EQ.
Still baffled on why that is some crime.
I like having that extra 5-7% avoidance and 60AC you need to get over it.

[Coprolith]

So your trying to tell me now that just 25AC (thats the AC you get from 100AGI) gives an extra 2.5% Avoidance?

So in other words what you "believe" is that if you up your AC from 1000 to just 1200 then you have just given yourself more Avoidance (20%) PLUS whatever small amount of Mitigation a leather wearer gets with 200AC than ALL my Defensive AAs combined?

Why do you even bother trying to enter the discussion when you clearly have no reading comprehension whatsoever. You haven't understood a single word of what was said. It's been very explicitly stated that agility is avoidance AC and worn AC is mitigation AC. They are 2 completely different and independent things.

RNG>ALL

And where did this little pearl of wisdom come from? The Law of Averages mean anything to you? You know, the larger the samplesize the more accurately the observed quantity represents the real average? Why we parse in the first place, to remove the effects of the RNG instead of relying on in-game perception which is hopelessly biased by the RNG due to selective reporting and confirmation bias?

As much as i've enjoyed working on my post count this discussion ends here.
You've shown throughout this thread that you have no idea what parsing is, you don't understand the nature of random behaviour, you don't even know the difference between avoidance and mitigation and you either misread every argument or twist them on purpose. And still you enter the discussion as if you are the world greatest authority on agility (and before you twist this sentence: no, i dont claim to be the world's greatest authority on agility either, but I at least have done some extensive research into it).
Get an education instead of wasting your time playing this game and trolling this board. I recommend Reading Comprehesion and Basic Math 101. When you're done with those, do some actual research into the subject of agility. Once you've shown you actually know what you and everybody else is talking about, then we can continue this discussion.

[Nunyabiz]

You know, the larger the samplesize the more accurately the observed quantity represents the real average

Law of reality mean anything to you?
But i guess you must be talking about all those 1-5 hour "fights" you do against teh backside of a green Mob.
Myself i go by the real fights IN GAME which are usually 1 min or less, and even on Major high end Mobs Eplane Gods etc rarely are you actively "engaged" non stop for all that long either.
So as far as the RNG goes 1-2 mins is about Max IN GAME which is where it counts. I dont play a parse.

Why do you even bother trying to enter the discussion when you clearly have no reading comprehension whatsoever

Just to show you boneheads what its like when you continously do exactly that to every syllable i say.
I have'nt either said nor even insinuated over 3/4 of the crap you guys are making up.

This entire thread has been over the simple fact that i think that 5-7% extra avoidance i get is really no more useless than that extra couple of procs i might get with Dex, the slightly higher average Hit i might get with higher Str etc, as i have CLEARLY stated over and over ALL Stats make very little difference in the long run, and they ALL will be maxed as you level no matter what you do.
Thats going BY YOUR FREAKING NUMBERS/PARSES not my in-game perception


As much as i've enjoyed working on my post count this discussion ends here.

Good, you may know numbers but you and your minions have absolutely zero comprehension of the written language.

I know exactly what parses are what they do how they do it why you do it, i also see ALOT of skewed ones and alot where the outcome is so small as to make it completely moot IN GAME.
ALL of the parses i have seen trying to prove or disprove anything about any stat have proven nothing except the fact that ALL stats have such a minor overall value that NONE are really any better than the other, they ALL help a little bit, and every little bit helps.

Get an education instead of wasting your time playing this game and trolling this board

I'll survive, I scored a 1470 on my SAT and that was in 1977 back when they were harder the test has been simplified to artifically raise the national average why im unsure but i assume some monetary gov BS.
So a 1510 back when i was in HS would now be a perfect 1600.
The 8-9 IQ test ive taken in the last 30 years have ranged from the lowest being 136 up to 161 personally I think they are nothing but skewed "parses" of human intelligence the one i give the most value to is the mensa of which i scored a 142.

Pffft.

[Coprolith]

I'd get a refund on your school tuition if i were you, cuz after a reply like this

Law of reality mean anything to you?
But i guess you must be talking about all those 1-5 hour "fights" you do against teh backside of a green Mob.
Myself i go by the real fights IN GAME which are usually 1 min or less, and even on Major high end Mobs Eplane Gods etc rarely are you actively "engaged" non stop for all that long either.
So as far as the RNG goes 1-2 mins is about Max IN GAME which is where it counts. I dont play a parse.

all the SAT scores in the world aren't going to help you.

Thanks for the laugh tho, i nearly fell of my chair while i read your last reply