Warder Proc Rate?

[Gharrik]

It's a pretty common misconception that weapons proc more if you swing them faster.  It seems like a 15dly weapon would proc twice as often as a 30dly one.  However, this has been proven false by countless hours of parsing by the folks over at Steel Warriors.  They have found that most weapons average 2 procs/min in main hand and 1 proc/min in off hand with max dexterity, despite attack speed.

Has any beastlord done a similar test for warder proc rates?

It would be interesting to know:

1. How many procs per minute our warders average with their proc buffs.
2. If given a weapon, do they use it's proc rate or the same rate as the buff procs?
3. Does dex affect pet proc rates the same as player proc rates?

Knowing these things would be helpful for determining if we should be buffing our pets' dex or just saving that mana, and would help in deciding whether or not to hand over things like flint daggers.

[Kanan]

Well...I can confirm only one:

To answer 3: I know my pet procs a lot more once I load him up on buffs vs when I've just put haste & proc buff on.

[Coprolith]

I've done extensive parsing on pet proc rates in the past and here's what i know

1) Spirit of Snow and Spirit of Flame cap out at a maximum average proc rate of 5.5 procs/min, Spirit of Rellic at 6.5 procs/min.
2) see below
3) Yes, Dexterity affects pet proc rates. However the +dex on the proc spells themselves combined with the dex from IoS is enough to cap out the pet's proc rate. Adding dexterity beyond that makes no difference anymore.

About point 2: that's an interesting question :) which i hope i'll be able to answer someday. Player proc spells (paladins and rangers have them) have a proc rate that's tied to the spell, and the difference in proc rate between SoFlame/Snow and SoRellic suggests that pet proc rates are tied to the spell as well. It seems to me that the safest bet is to assume that the proc rate of pet weapons is tied to the weapon itself just as it is for PCs, tho i've never seen this proven with parses.

On a side note, it occurs to me that giving the pet proccing weapons might actually lower the proc rate from the spell procs. This happens with PCs as well. PCs can only get one proc per hand per combat round. The primary proc of the weapon gets checked first, then the secondary (from augments), and finally the spell proc. The spell proc can only go off if the primary and secondary proc fail their check, and therefore the spell proc rate is lower then it would be if the PC had a weapon with no procs on it.

Im currently in the process of levelling a mage on my 3rd box, and when he makes 61 (and gets blades of walnan) i intend to look into the matter.

/hugs

[Gharrik]

I agree about question 2.  I have given my warder lots of different proccing weapons and it SEEMS to me that he procs them much less than his buff proc, which would indicate that he is using the proc rate of the weapons, not one of his own.  I just wanted to know if anybody else had noticed this or if it was just my imagination.

But what you said about proccing weapons lowering his innate proc rate is interesting.  I had never thought about it, but it makes perfect sense.  I wonder how pronounced the effect is though?  Could giving the pet velium weapons actually lower his proc DPS?  And would gnoll hide larients end up reducing the time he keeps a mob stunned?

Definately something to think about!  I know I'll never hand over a dagger of dropping again! :)

[cougerofeq]

so why does that 5/10 twig sell for 150k on my server if its not to add a proc to it?

[Tastian]

Very old, rare item.  I've had offers of over 4 mil for mine throughout the years.  *shrugs*  It's not nearly the weapon it used to be and even if it went main it wouldn't be as broken as it used to be.

[Lithale]

I can't remember where I read this... might have been on the other boards, but weapons given to pets proc on the weapon's proc rate/table, but our warder will still use his proc rate/table for his own proc... two timers per say.

[Tastian]

Yeah lith that's how it goes, but you the question is overlap of procs.  If I have proc on weapon and aug and spell proc they can't all fire and normal weapon proc get's first dibs, if that doesn't happen then aug'd proc, then spell get's a chance.  I've been looking over some of my logs to see proc rate of main weapon proc verse aug'd proc and spell proc and so far haven't seen a noteable decrease.  In theory it's lower, but it hasn't shown up much yet for me.  I will keep checking though *shrugs*

[Coprolith]

Well pets hit pretty fast, which should help in reducing the size of the effect i described. On PCs the effect is most notable when using slow 2H'ed weapons. Consider for instance a ranger with an imaginary 2HS with 100 delay, 2 procs on the weapon and a spell proc. Lets assume all procs have a base rate of 2 procs/min.
Unhasted the ranger will have 6 combat rounds per minute. The primary proc goes off, on average, 2 times per minute. So the secondary proc only gets checked on 4 of the 6 combat rounds. The secondary proc gets checked only 2/3rds as much and therefore only procs 1.3 times per minute. That only leaves 6-2-1.3 = 2.7 combat rounds for the spell proc to go off. The spell proc rate is reduced to (2.7/6)*2 = 0.9 procs/min.
In this case, haste does matter. Fully hasted, the ranger gets 12 combat rounds per minute. The primary proc still only goes off twice per min, but now that leaves 10 rounds for the secondary proc which gives a (10/12)*2 = 1.7 secondary proc rate. The spell proc now has 12-2-1.7=8.3 rounds in which it gets checked, and the spell proc rate is (8.3/12)*2 = 1.4 procs/min.
Switching to dualwielding, lets say the ranger MH weapon has a hasted delay of 10. Now he gets 60 combat rounds per minute. Primary still procs only 2x/min, secondary procs (58/60)*2 = 1.93x/min, and the spell 1.87x/min. Compared to the base proc rates of 2x/min, these differences are small and very difficult to parse out.
I figure the pet's proc rates will be closer to the dw'ing rangers example, so the effect will be small. I certainly wouldn't stop giving the pet some gnoll hide lariats Gharrik, the total number of procs/min (and with it the number of stuns per minute) still increases no matter what. But giving the pet velium weapons might actually lower the total proc dps. But again, this is just theorizing, would be interesting to see it parsed out tho.

/hugs

[Gharrik]

Coprolith said:

Spirit of Snow and Spirit of Flame cap out at a maximum average proc rate of 5.5 procs/min, Spirit of Rellic at 6.5 procs/min.

I recently dinged 53 and got Spirit of the Storm and I immediatly noticed a drop in proc rate from Spirit of Wind.  I am not sure if this was my imagination or not, but if Snow/Flame and Rellic have different rates, It is possible that Storm and Wind are different as well.  Anybody have any information on these proc rates?  I'm not much of a parser myself.  Kinda computer impaired (both in terms of hardware and knowledge) so I don't even know for sure that I could run a parser.

[Tastian]

Parser is easy to run, but for what you want even notepad would work.  Just "find" the entries you are looking for "struck by raging wind" or whatever and look at how often they show up over the various fight times.  Just make sure you don't make a systematic error in how you figure time for procs.  

Personally I never used wind, not once *shrugs*  went right from vermin to storm.  For some wind works and is a big bonus, for some wind isn't really an option.  I just never had the use for it.  If I had been doing dryads or something for those levels then the knockback and minor damage boost might have been worth it, but *shrugs*.

[Coprolith]

It's possible that Storm and Wind have different proc rates, but somehow i doubt that the higher level proc Storm would have a lower proc rate then Wind. Perhaps you've changed hunting grounds and are now fighting higher level mobs that resist the proc more often?

(i forgot to mention those proc rates i mentioned earlier were obtained against L50-52 mobs. They're not base proc rates, but the rate of procs that actually land)

/hugs

[Tipop]

By the way... I don't think procs go off when you swing. If I am on autoattack and within range of a mob, I can proc even when I haven't made an attack that second.

It seems that the proc "timer" just goes off whenever it wants to, as long as you have autoattack on and are in melee range. Thus it shouldn't matter if you have a weapon proc and a spell proc... neither one should affect the other. If the weapon proc goes off, it would have no effect on the spell proc because they're not tied to my swing at all.

That's just my observation.

[Coprolith]

Forgive me for being sceptic Tipop, but you'd better have some solid evidence to back up that claim. There's been extensive research on the mechanics of procs, by the warriors and the rangers for instance, and everything i've seen says procs are tied to a combat round.

/hugs

[Gharrik]

Yeah, procs must be tied to melee.  Otherwise, warrior AE groups could not exist.  They function because the warrior can hit many times (lots of mobs) per round with a raised chance of a proc on each hit (from being slowed).  If the proc rate was independent of the swings, this would not work.

Believe the way it works is that your chance to proc on each hit is calculated according to your attack speed (including haste and weapon delay), the innate proc rate of the weapon, and your dex.  This gives a chance to proc per hit and by including attack speed in the equation, ensures that you will average the same # of procs per minute no matter how fast you attack.

Thus, a warrior with a 50dly weapon, slowed 75%, has a pretty high chance to proc on each hit in order to ensure he procs ~ 2 times / min.  Then when he hits AE attack aa and smacks 30 mobs at once, he has a huge chance to proc on each mob and thus you have a 2 man AE group.