Making a new thread with my actual suggestions for making those AAs into something that won't make me quit. I'm an evil high end raider, so most of my ideas are focused in this realm (which I also believe to be our weakest point right now).
Unknown DB String 0-1 (Feign Death/Playing Possum)
Currently the AA is a 30second refresh and has a 60% success rate per Tadenea, my short testing with the AA though unscientific agree with this and will use 60% for argument's sake.
60% is a rather high fail rate, and in most grouping situations a failed FD will lead to the beastlord running around, possibly causing a train, for 30 seconds and attempting again. The issue is that after 30 seconds there is still a 16% chance of two successive fails. After one minute the odds of failing 3 times in a row is down to 6.4%, something fairly reasonable after one minute IF we hadn't been running around with 5-7k hitters chasing us. The current fail rate/recast I feel will lead to lots of collateral damage.
3 Proposed Options
1. As a mainly raider/solo beast I would like to see it turned into an emergency AA. Long (20-30minute) refresh with 100% success rate and ideally fortification against spells breaking the FD.
2. Raise the recast time to 1 minute and raise the success rate to 85%. After one minute's time, the odds of two successive fails would be 2.25%, however there would be a one minute interval without another attempt as opposed to 30 seconds. The decrease in trains created would be lowered quite a bit, and this would be my second favorite option.
2. Lower the success rate to 50%, and lower the recast to 10 seconds. I'm not so much a fan of this one, but if they absolutely insist on keeping the success rate at a low % I strongly feel the recast needs to be lowered.
Cat-like Reflexes (improved safe fall)
This AA is so full of fail I can't even begin...it's beyond belief that anyone could be convinced of this having practical usefulness at this stage in the game (level 81 required, btw). This really needs scrapped for a new AA.
Proposed Idea
It's my strong belief that one of our areas that really needs improvement is our short term burn dps. We're a decent amount behind rangers, and even bards have the potential to out-burst us right now. If I'm mistaken and some of you are out there bursting for 16-18k consistently please inform me of my error, and then tell me in game what I'm doing wrong. That said, I feel we could use a 2000-3000 DPS added to our 60second burn ability just to remain competitive with rangers. The reason we can't burn is we don't have abilities to increase all the facets of our damage, we can only increase melee and spells (via 7th/glyphs).
The AA I'm suggesting could be called something like "Essential Swarm" and would ensure that the next 3 swarm pet casts would all have the jackpot 4x pet version. I think this would make up approximately the amount of damage we're lacking. It could also be argued, that this doesn't technically increase our maximum potential it just removes the major lottery aspect.
Chameleon Strike (deagro+small damage)
Assuming FD gets worked into a reasonable, useful tool we no longer have the need for 4 different deagro AAs. I would like to see this turned into some sort of increased raid desirability AA. The problem, however, is that almost every useful way form of attributed DPS or mob debuff has already been handed out.
Proposed Idea
Cobra Strike - this damage over time ability will leave the target afflicted with a poison that leaves them more susceptible to future poisonous attacks. Basically increase incoming poison damage by say 10%. Every other resist type has something to this effect, but I couldn't find one for poison. If I missed it from being tired I'm going to cry. Poison is actually a great utility with all of the rogue poisons going around and of course our own personal poison spells. Set the duration to 24seconds and the refresh at 1 minute so that two beastlords can mostly keep it going on a mob, but a raid would require 3 for full time effect.
Eh, OK. I'll just copy+paste my reply in your first thread, then :D
"My biggest problem with dying as a Bst was always re-gearing the pet (find a mage... bother the mage... again and again... lose friends, etc :p)
The XP loss, etc, doesn't bother many of us any more I'm sure.
If we could have an "escape" AA for the pet, which made it persist through *our* death, to re-accompany us at our bind point, that would be more awesome for me than FD.
Although I do like the idea of safely making ninja-AFK'ing more safe :p"
WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times? and can people not remember what the Dev said??
if I recall it was some thing along the line he not going to put in aa that going to put him out of a job.. he put in aa that latter on can be improved on.
We get FD.. that alone is a huge step do you want to go QQing about that already so it get pulled even before it go live?? let it go live and know that once we have the skill then it can always be improved on latter at least we got it.
Look at necro, monks and Sk their FD is not that much better. what makes their FD good is the extra aa lines they get to improve it. do you want to get a perfect FD from the start and have all the other class bitch so they figger it not worth the effort to give us the aa to start with. the AA not even named yet it be simple for them to pull it from us.
this is why the devs didn't post them soon too many ppl QQing. just take what you get be happy and make it work.
Mazame. As you know, when we get skills that other classes have had, it creates a *£_)storm of complaints against us.
Instead of just watching this unfold (again), maybe we could agree on something more unique than FD that fits the class better?
I personally never, ever expected Bsts to get FD. And I don't want us to be a pulling class, really.
I'm kinda with Mazame on this one.. let FD/possum/whatever its called go live and lets see how it pans out. We can always work on getting AA's to improve it later =)
Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else? Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol
As for safe fall... :? :?
Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
I'm kinda with Mazame on this one.. let FD/possum/whatever its called go live and lets see how it pans out. We can always work on getting AA's to improve it later =)
I'd rather get it to a more usable state now, before too many classes start complaining and cause devs to not touch the AA again for 4-5 years cause of them. Let's face it when it comes to getting AAs improved, we have not done well, we either get ignored or other classes complain and jumble up the threads so useful info is easily lost, waiting for things to go in and give people chance to find reasons to nerf them s not a good thing to do, get them working quick before anything bad can happen. Worst that can happen is they will keep the AA as is since I doubt they will just remove it out of annoyance.
I am fine with either of Hzath's first two suggestions for FD, though if it's the first I'd rather it be more like a 15 min refresh, to keep it in line with the other similar aggro dropping abilities.
Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else? Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol
No it doesn't share a recast with anything. That's why it's frustrating. If these AAs go live we now have 4 ways to reduce hate. We don't need 4 ways to reduce hate, just like we don't need 6 pet heals. We need 1 or 2 good abilities, we have to stand up and fix this problem while it's still in testing phase, we don't need another issue like we have with pet heals...you see how well we're doing on fixing those. In my opinion once these go live it's game over till next expansion, I could be wrong but that's the way we should approach this issue.
Quote from: Mazame on April 02, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times?
Yeah I and I am pretty sure a lot more can.
For 6 years we have been asking for a fairly simple thing. A way to lower us on the hate list reliably and successfully, a jolt if you will.
This is just another abilty in what is starting to become a long line that doesn't meet that requirement even on the drawing board.
If I had a simple Jolt I would be very happy with this and be happy to see upgrades in the future.
I dont.
Quote from: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else? Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol
No it doesn't share a recast with anything. That's why it's frustrating. If these AAs go live we now have 4 ways to reduce hate. We don't need 4 ways to reduce hate, just like we don't need 6 pet heals. We need 1 or 2 good abilities, we have to stand up and fix this problem while it's still in testing phase, we don't need another issue like we have with pet heals...you see how well we're doing on fixing those. In my opinion once these go live it's game over till next expansion, I could be wrong but that's the way we should approach this issue.
This. Upgrade abilities, don't make more new ones.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Mazame on April 02, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times?
Yeah I and I am pretty sure a lot more can.
For 6 years we have been asking for a fairly simple thing. A way to lower us on the hate list reliably and successfully, a jolt if you will.
This is just another abilty in what is starting to become a long line that doesn't meet that requirement even on the drawing board.
If I had a simple Jolt I would be very happy with this and be happy to see upgrades in the future.
I dont.
Psst...FD, even a 60% FD, is a HUGE deaggro tool. Monks use it all the time for that purpose. It may be a less wonderful as a pulling tool, but even there it can be useful. But I don't see how we can whine about not becoming a primary pulling class. We aren't. I'd be happy with FD as described and agree with Mazame. It's way too early to bitch ourselves out of something useful before we even get it.
OK - cynical first -- Even assuming they listen/read, we know they won't change anything -- witness Friendly Pet.
As far as (Improved) Safe Fall goes, any suggestions I have made were with the intent that the skills Safe Fall/Hide/Sneak/Tracking/Forage should be given to us as a PACKAGE. By nature, we function as PREDATORS ... having the skill set to do be just that should be there. Also, if this is in fact meant to improve Safe Fall, will it actually do anything for non Vah Shir? The only thing I get as a barbarian these days is penalties, not bonuses. I get to eat more, have sucky human vision, a 50 skill that shares a timer with kick and can't be used and some bonus resists that haven't mattered for months, since they don't increase the caps. The most annoying thing about this AA is that it probably took up a noticeable amount of dev time to make it work and test it etc., rather than just having us spend a couple AA to get safe fall as a skill at level 51, which already worked.
Feign Death will probably end up in MORE deaths, not less. We will be susecptible to spell/AE damage to break it, which will happen LONG before anyone forgets about us, so instead of having a running chance on a bad solo pull, we're lying down while the mobs are charging in. It makes no provision for us to save warder - No beastlord worth being one is going to flop down KNOWING his/her bonded companion is going to die as a result. If we had the Pet Fade ability Mages are supposed to be getting to go with it, sure, it might be workable. To be brutally honest, in a lot of UF zones, getting up from a successful FD with no warder is simply prolonging the death process. Wandering mobs, see invis mobs etc., are all going to prevent a re summoning with proper buffs and even something to bounce growl off of is going to be hard to pull off in a number of cases. IThis travesty of an ability is a result of people saying they'd be willing to sacrifice their warder to live. Giving the devs an easy way out was bad, now we're going to have to beg for the improving AAs in the future, which will then cut down on anything else we could get at that time. So we're going to lag behind other classes in abilities even MORE in the future.
DPS?!?! Gees, our sustained and burst dps would have gotten better with FLURRY. Flurry is a DPS ability, 100%. We don't get it, yet every other melee and hybrid class DOES. Any arguement that we shouldn't get because our pet has it is GARBAGE. SKs, a tanking class, get both, for one. Secondly, given the fact that our pets are probably between 10 and 20 per cent of our DPS including flurry and the fact that even non melee class pets get flurry, using this as the reason will let everyone push us between 3 different roles for denying us stuff. They call us DPS to deny us utility abilities, Utility to block DPS abilities. Add in a 3rd way to stack the deck against us and we're finished.
Eldiroth doesn't want to give out some decent AAs because it will put him out of a job? Incompetence, neglect, stupidity or behavior that leads to the loss of revenue can do that just as easily.
Having a ranger or a mage doing our "liasing" with the devs, just doesn't cut it any more. A beastlord rep would have been able to object to the new friendly pet or suggest alternatives before it was finished and the devs wouldn't go back and change it. Also, there is too much conflict of interest for either of those classes to represent us in my opinion. Given the overlap in spheres of interest and power, it is far too likely for either of those classes to drop any good ideas off a beastlord list and onto thier own. Even the appearance of such can cause problems.
In the end - nothing was done to deal with the major outstanding issues from what I can see. We still lack the tools and skills to function properly in our solo role, we still have no area in which we exceed other classes, our pets are still lackluster, shrinking relative DPS is only getting worse thanks to things like a tank with imbued ferocity(Give them pet proc weapons and they can probably out parse us in pet damge given flurries etc.) Aggro issues are likely still as problematic as ever. We're even further behind the average in spells now, since they've added another to rangers. We still get screwed on defense since all hybrids get the same dodge skill. The short one shot nature of our defensive ability means next to nothing in UF. In raids, my first indication of aggro is generally you have been slain by X, since the mob immediatlely flips around, plows through a 5.7k ac and whatever paltry mitigation we get as a maximum to instantly do over 52k to 55k damage. I'm pretty sure I'm at least marginally competent as a beastlord and have managed to optimize damage output as much as possible, but it doesn't make a difference. In guild raids, I'm always excluded from hard raids if there are too many people, because some other class can do a better job at whatever role a beastlord might be assigned. There are no other beastlord mains, and there is only a low priority to recruit more. Regular raids, even cleric BOTS get a higher priority for a group...We've had several raids recently where there were numbers that didnt fit into gfull groups very well. 49 characters in raid and it makes more sense to toss the beastlord in solo that a bot healer. I see burn fights where warriors and SKs out DPS me becasue they can still stack mostly, where most of our abilities either can't stack because they are split between us and our warders or because they are incompatible with each other.
I have played a beastlord almost exclusively since the early part of Luclin. I remember when it was hard to solo, because warder could out DPS you and KSed the xp off of light blue mobs you could barely kill. Grouping wasnt much of an option - it got to the point where you would see "Highkeep group seeks more, any class but bst pst". I spent a month doing what amounted to anthropological studies among the kerrans and kejek for lack of groups. Because of RL issues, I missed the high points of pet pulling and what have you, so I've only been the underdog. I'm fed up with seeing a new pet heal as my great new ability when things like Headshot or deathbloom are passed out. This is not "QQ"ing, this is genuine anger at seeing the same old systematic exclusion and marginalization of my chosen class being perpetuated AGAIN, for what seems to be nothing more than what appears to be extreme bias and pettiness on the part of the devs, as well as their total capitulation to the least little whining from any other class when they might have to share the stage a little or even worse, see us get something useful instead of them. We have had every unique class defining ability either sold out from under us over the years with little to nothing ever being reciprocated or it's been left to stagnate to uselessness as the game has evolved - and the devs have no problem admitting it and shrugging it off; look at our ferocity line. Our side doesn't even seem to merit any real response or dialogue to our concerns, never mind a place at the table. The lack of a beastlord among the Community Leaders, despite numerous applicants, has certainly made ignoring us that much easier.
If my posts end up as lengthy, it is only because the amount of crap that's been allowed to build up by SOE and the devs is at the point where the Augean Stables were pristine in comparison.
What would happen if you moved thiese circumstances to the real world and substituted "African-American" for "beastlord"? I doubt it would be all hapiness and smiles.
Quote from: Nusa on April 02, 2010, 11:05:33 PM
Psst...FD, even a 60% FD, is a HUGE deaggro tool. Monks use it all the time for that purpose. It may be a less wonderful as a pulling tool, but even there it can be useful. But I don't see how we can whine about not becoming a primary pulling class. We aren't. I'd be happy with FD as described and agree with Mazame. It's way too early to bitch ourselves out of something useful before we even get it.
Whilst I havent played a monk I did raid on an SK and Necro up till PoP and on those classes at least a failed fd never cleared aggro. Especially on my necro when we only had the Feign Death spell I got summoned a lot whilst lying down and it wasn't pretty.
If a monks FD manages to wipe aggro on a fail and ours follows the same path then I will be happy. But then what would a fail do? I also don't want to be a pulling class I want Jolt, just a plain simple Jolt with no bells and whisltes just a Jolt. Why is that so hard?
Considering how much gets denied or taken from us because we have slow how much worse is it going to be if we have a FD as well? The devs do listen to the other classes whining and do act upon it.
How about a little less whining about it not being an easy button and a little understanding of what it does do? Of course a fail is a fail. That doesn't mean the success case isn't valuable.
If you want to attack something, pick on safe-fall. I'll agree that that adds almost no value in todays game.
Nusa, you're still ignoring the crux of the matter with getting the FD AA.
THE REST OF OUR AAs ALSO DECREASE AGRO
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possibly be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?
Quote from: Nusa on April 03, 2010, 11:35:01 AM
How about a little less whining about it not being an easy button and a little understanding of what it does do? Of course a fail is a fail. That doesn't mean the success case isn't valuable.
If you want to attack something, pick on safe-fall. I'll agree that that adds almost no value in todays game.
No one has asked for an easy button. We have been asking for a jolt type ability/spell for over 6 years. Considering also I have been playing fd classes either as a main or alt since kunark I would think I do have some understanding of what it does. You where the one trying to indirectly suggest that a failed fd still dropped aggro.
The only way a failed fd reduces our hate is because we are lying on the ground and not attacking, this will do wonders for our dps or do you know a way to still do damage to the mob whilst lying down?
So how about you have a little understanding of what a decent portion of the beastlord community has been asking for for the majority of the classes existance and still does not have. What we do have is 4 other abilities prior to these 2 that don't do the job properly, it is safe to assume these 2 in their current form won't either.
You apparently have a yearning to get a feign death for some reason and that is fine but don't try and pass it off as the answer to all our aggro problems when it clearly isn't.
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?
Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction
Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life :evil:
Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Maybe I'm wrong, but don't resists still reduce aggro?
Also, I agree that getting a bunch of jolts is overkill. Meh.
Relax people, if you want to just bitch, put it in the rants section.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?
Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction
Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life :evil:
Ok I for one don't have the aggro problem that most of you tend to QQ about, before beta when you all asked for jolt I didn't say much cause figered ether way no big deal. so the last 6 months every time AA are talked about a lot of Bst have ASKED for Deaggro. and so some changes were made to asp/raven/grollia. yet this didn't make any of you happy so you QQ more and now they given us another one chameleon strike. and I sorry but if your still pulling aggro maybe you need to relook at how you are playing before you ask for more AA that are not needed. and if you feel these are not enuff again I say look at your self 1st because this idea that we have uncontrolable aggro is just wrong.
if you have trouble on a raid a few steps you can take are 1 stand at max melee. unlike rog and monks our aa / spells ect all work from max melee so we don't need to be front of the line we can be standing next to our pet and still do full damage.
2nd if you have aggro problems then use HOTT this will show you the MT life if he drops down to 20% then hit your deaggros / back up
3rd if your dieing because your on ramp / or because the main tank dies and you were next on the hate list then talk to your guild. for us we have knights each raid on stand by if main tank drop the knights grab aggro asap and deflect untill next war can pick it up. because the knight used snap aggro he get it fast and when the new war pulls it off has built a lot of aggro that are melee are not getting killed.
ya the list could go on but the point being is that if your going balls to the wall to be a parse whore rather then doing what you need to help the raid team by staying alive then your adding to the problem not helping it. and asking for a easy button to lose aggro is not the key imo learn to watch more of whats going on know when to go all out and when to hold back and focus on staying alive. we don't need a deaggro button. or at least I don't have a problem losing aggro.
in group I have times where I tank and holding aggro is more of a problem them losing it. rog / wiz / bez are all hard to keep aggro from when they are burning. SK / war can always pull and hold aggro even when I trying to take it. they tell me I make them work for it but they can do it.
EQ old school used to be about taking what a class had and making it work. most people today seam to want an easy button for everything.
.................................
FD may not be a pulling tool to start but often in group with the fewer ppl playing it harder to find a puller. so to add that skill as some thing we can do in a pinch I feel is a great idea that over time will get better.
as for deaggro. if you have that much trouble with aggro then ya it one more tool u can use to lose aggro.
Our damage-to-aggro ratio is not good tho is it.
Pulling aggro from the tank whilst doing half the DPS of the other DPS classes (who aren't pulling aggro) was always a bone of contention.
Haven't looked into it deeply, but didn't someone find that Harrow has a massive aggro component well above and beyond the damage it was doing? I seem to recall that I stopped using it for a while because of that.
Forray has a fixed hate value of 1006 compared to Calanin's Synergy's 1.
Setting the hate value to 1 would lower our agro generation by 35.3hate/second, compared to 58.3hate/second currently lost from asp it would be a significant improvement.
I agree it's out of whack, theirs does tons more damage, for less agro, and almost the same endurance cost.
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
Forray has a fixed hate value of 1006 compared to Calanin's Synergy's 1.
Setting the hate value to 1 would lower our agro generation by 35.3hate/second, compared to 58.3hate/second currently lost from asp it would be a significant improvement.
I agree it's out of whack, theirs does tons more damage, for less agro, and almost the same endurance cost.
It's been there since Rake, for some reason devs figured our skill attack should have added aggro for some odd reason I have never figured out. Now every upgrade we get gives us more and more aggro, making our already lacking deaggro abilites less efficient.
Next Foray upgrade should be fun, if they keep the standard upgrade it should be 1600 added aggro for the rank 3 of it.
Quote from: Mazame on April 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
EQ old school used to be about taking what a class had and making it work. most people today seam to want an easy button for everything.
For the life of me I cannot figure out why people think having a jolt spell is easy mode, especially when we have been after it for over 6 years.
When we got Roar of Thunder 6 years ago the community wanted it changed to be a useful jolt spell as well. No one wants 20 de aggro spells, they just want one that does the job well. In my old guild I was the only beastlord, I would very rarely be in the top 10 yet still the first one to die if the tank died, that is just wrong.
Oh and for the record old school EQ aggro was broken as all hell, don't believe me ask a necro pre AA's and dot changes when one dot cast when a mob was at 75% health would take aggro of the tank when a wizzie chain nuking from 95% and critting couldn't.
As for being a parse whore, not me I am one of the first to admit I am not a great dps beastlord. Apart from lacking a lot of the AA"s I loved the class for the utility and variety it brought to the game. I am rarely in the top 6 in our parses and a fair way behind our other beastlord. If I was parse whore I would still be playing my necro and most probably laughing at everyone elses dps figures in private like old school necros used to.
I am really hoping this Chameleon strike does the job but on past experiences I will not hold my breath.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?
Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction
Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life :evil:
Resists do generate aggro, but only in the same direction the fully landed spell would have, meaning a negative aggro spell (a Jolt) will still lower your aggro resist or not. Just like a resisted nuke will give full base aggro a resisted jolt will drop your aggro by full amount.
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes. Give it a month of use first.
Cat Like Reflexes should be taken back. Useless waste. I would rather see an increase in ranks for Destructive Fury or Extended Swarm.
Quote from: Sharrien on April 04, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes. Give it a month of use first.
For those who have this opinion, I want to remind you about friendly pet in hopes you reevaluate the merit of the "wait and see" approach.
Quote from: Hzath on April 04, 2010, 03:32:33 AM
Quote from: Sharrien on April 04, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes. Give it a month of use first.
For those who have this opinion, I want to remind you about friendly pet in hopes you reevaluate the merit of the "wait and see" approach.
For those that have this idea that QQing will fix it or that telling the dev's how to fix it I would also like to point out the hundreds of post on "friendly pet" and how QQ / asking for fixes did for that spell
Be happy with what we get? Seriously? If you want to be happy with what you get, feel free to not participate in these discussions. Those of us that care about the beastlord class will work on improving it, and you guys can be happy with what we get you.
FD is a stupid AA to give us in it's current form. It is just plain stupid, and anyone can see that. We have been asking for a solid de-aggro ability for years now, and instead we have four of them now that don't work worth a damn. Give us a higher de-aggro on maxed out roar of thunder. 3 ranks, massive boost to the hate reduction component. There. I just fixed the whole problem.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?
Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction
Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life :evil:
It should be "Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes would save his life if named mob didn't summon and squish him anyways."
<2k words actually cut out at this point>
Quote from: Mazame on April 04, 2010, 06:11:43 AM
Quote from: Hzath on April 04, 2010, 03:32:33 AM
Quote from: Sharrien on April 04, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes. Give it a month of use first.
For those who have this opinion, I want to remind you about friendly pet in hopes you reevaluate the merit of the "wait and see" approach.
For those that have this idea that QQing will fix it or that telling the dev's how to fix it I would also like to point out the hundreds of post on "friendly pet" and how QQ / asking for fixes did for that spell
<and added and expanded upon here>
Why shouldn't giving the Devs ideas on how to fix things be done? Their track record on giving beastlords new abilities is mainly a list of different versions of pet healing or adding an additional offensive proc to our warder. Friendly Pet would seem to be a major innovation for them, since it let them give us an "offensive" proc AND a pet heal all in one, saving more development/coding time improving another class that is represented among the Community Leaders. Some of the ideas for fixes/replacements were literally "plug and play" in that they used EXISTING spells and effects that just needed to be plugged in to a new spell entry, with a couple of data fields being changed at most and probably required even LESS development/coding time than the version we got.
A version of Friendly Pet that supercedes Vaxtzn -- Offensively it's the same for proc rate and damage. The only difference is that you copy/paste the recourse from the Holy Hand of Vengeance line of procs over to it and change the amount healed to say 250/300/325 for Ranks 1, 2 & 3. Bump the mana cost of the spell up a few hundred mana from Vaxtzn (they must be letting a cat walk on the keyboard for names again, like GoD) and run it through a few arena parses to double check casting data and to see what the heal rate is in practice instead of theory. Tweak the heal amounts if necessary based on the results and you're done. Minimal work since a lot of it was already done and the spell is superior to what we got. Doesn't require an additional spell gem, doesn't add another spell to the need to rebuff list, doesn't put another proc into the list of possible effects scrambling to go off on the same attack, doesn't interfere with existing pet buffs (It's Vaxtzn+) and it eliminates the need to give it charges. When level 86 to 90 spells are needed, you can go with an upgrade of Friendly Pet as the only basic proc spell. You would be able to either go with another "Spirit of <content NPC>" name or designate the future upgrades as "Amiable Pet", "Kind Pet", "Warm Pet" and "Allied Pet". (The name still makes me think of an ogre skipping through the Feerrott with a Care Bear in tow <shudder>).
The end result is a spell that 1) is an upgrade, 2) should require little time and effort to implement, 3) is a spell that is much closer to the original Friendly Pet concept(in that it heals the warder's allies), 4) shouldn't be overpowering/game breaking, and 5) a spell that most of us would at least accept.
Had the Devs asked for input/ideas BEFORE charging ahead with a fix or if there had been a Beastlord Community Rep. to bounce their idea for a fix off of, there would have been little or no chance of the current situation happening.
As to FD, a wait and see attitude is going to do nothing but leave us worse off in the long term. If it goes live as nothing but a version of the original feign death, without the modifications/extra AAs 11 years of use have shown to be necessary for reasonable functionality being made available to us now when we should get them (I'm not talking about the AAs that improve its pulling ability, but the ones that improve survivability and allow us to save our warders instead of sacrificing them. It's not just a matter of personal preference on the warder saving since, from a role-playing perspective, any beastlord who cravenly abandons his warder to their enemies as a normal circumstance is about as likely to retain his warder and remain a beastlord about as often as pedophilia would allow someone to remain a paladin.). Otherwise, we'll have to try to get them in future expansions, where they will in all likelyhood be pointed to when we ask why clerics, shamans and druids were given flurry and we weren't.
Attempting to constructively advocate for our class by providing possible (positive) solutions is not "QQ"ing, Mazame. Neither is getting frustrated with people who are so firmly focused on getting rid of the alligators that they've forgotten that the true goal is draining the swamp. Even cutting out all ranting is not always the best solution. If we sanitize everything passed on to the Devs to the point where it is nothing but vacuous platitudes and neutral temporization, then they will never see the need to do anything different and we'll be left with the status quo. The devs don't stand for election, so short of voting with our wallets and quitting EQ, we can lobby for change and try to contribute or say nothing and continue to pay for a product we are unsatisfied with.
I am trying to put forward ideas that I think might be of benefit to us. I may very well be wrong. But if they aren't presented and discussed, we'll never know. Neither will the devs know, since they probably aren't mindreaders. I happen to think I can contribute to the design process with some ideas. I'm not a complete newbie when it comes to designing material for RPGs in general. I've played quite a few over the years for one. I grew up on RPGs. I've been playing, running, writing rules and campaign material for various RPGs for almost 30 years now. I got my first D&D set for my 8th birthday. Several of my friends over the years have been professionals.
Explaining the reasoning behind why something should be changed is just as important as the what. Gimme a fero aura does little to explain the need. Hence the length of many of my posts. I probably do need to be more concise, but there isn't someone here to yell "Shut up already!" while I'm typing.
Quote from: Camikazi on April 04, 2010, 12:08:45 AM
Resists do generate aggro, but only in the same direction the fully landed spell would have, meaning a negative aggro spell (a Jolt) will still lower your aggro resist or not. Just like a resisted nuke will give full base aggro a resisted jolt will drop your aggro by full amount.
Is this a change in the last few years I missed?
I do remember lull's generating aggro that increased aggro, in fact I remember resists generating more aggro than a fully landed spell would.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a resist in a lot of ways doesn't it ? That being said I never thought a resisted dd etc should generate as much or more aggro than a fully landed one.
Quote from: Mazame on April 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
Ok I for one don't have the aggro problem that most of you tend to QQ about, before beta when you all asked for jolt I didn't say much cause figered ether way no big deal. so the last 6 months every time AA are talked about a lot of Bst have ASKED for Deaggro. and so some changes were made to asp/raven/grollia. yet this didn't make any of you happy so you QQ more and now they given us another one chameleon strike. and I sorry but if your still pulling aggro maybe you need to relook at how you are playing before you ask for more AA that are not needed. and if you feel these are not enuff again I say look at your self 1st because this idea that we have uncontrolable aggro is just wrong.
if you have trouble on a raid a few steps you can take are 1 stand at max melee. unlike rog and monks our aa / spells ect all work from max melee so we don't need to be front of the line we can be standing next to our pet and still do full damage.
2nd if you have aggro problems then use HOTT this will show you the MT life if he drops down to 20% then hit your deaggros / back up
3rd if your dieing because your on ramp / or because the main tank dies and you were next on the hate list then talk to your guild. for us we have knights each raid on stand by if main tank drop the knights grab aggro asap and deflect untill next war can pick it up. because the knight used snap aggro he get it fast and when the new war pulls it off has built a lot of aggro that are melee are not getting killed.
ya the list could go on but the point being is that if your going balls to the wall to be a parse whore rather then doing what you need to help the raid team by staying alive then your adding to the problem not helping it. and asking for a easy button to lose aggro is not the key imo learn to watch more of whats going on know when to go all out and when to hold back and focus on staying alive. we don't need a deaggro button. or at least I don't have a problem losing aggro.
I think you're making quite a few assumptions on how others play. By your own admission in another thread you hate "chain casting nukes", which kind of makes me think you're one of those beastlords who sits there in a raid, content to be at 60% mana when it's all over. (Yeah, bit of assumption on my part) There's a difference between being a "parse whore" and pushing yourself to be the best you can be. On raids, DPS is king. The guilds winning UF raids (well, the ones that haven't been nerfed into the ground yet), guess what, for the most part have a ton of dps. That means they have everyone contributing, and giving all they've got. I don't think many are/were asking for an easy button, more like an effective way to drop/lose aggro,
like every other melee dps in the game has. I go "balls to the wall" constantly, but that doesn't mean I don't heal myself or max melee (duh) or whatever else.
The problem with the new AA is just overkill. That said I personally hope we don't screw ourselves out of FD (or monks etc don't), but I get where others are coming from. We could easily ditch say the bite/claw/smash timer AA, and get something more desirable, especially if the chameleon thing is any good (no idea heh).
Quote from: Umlat on April 04, 2010, 09:37:48 AM
Otherwise, we'll have to try to get them in future expansions, where they will in all likelyhood be pointed to when we ask why clerics, shamans and druids were given flurry and we weren't.
Not really the quote I was trying to find but just re:flurry, I think monks were the only class that really got any dps boosting AA this run. We might feel more entitled because our burn dps isn't all that great (sustained I find is still quite competitive), but it is what it is, Elidroth made a post somewhere saying he basically wasn't looking to increase dps with these mid season AA.
I'm curious if we'd have better luck trying to get something that'd only help us on burns, as Elidroth mentioned during beta (when the topic of more triple attack, etc, came up) that he was worried about increasing our sustained output too much.
Oh, and lol, if you don't like the name for friendly pet (I don't either), I suppose you won't be gungho if the FD aa really does get called "Playin' Possum". /snicker ;)
Playin' 'possum is less offensive than continually seeing "QQ" is. Then again the main use I've seen it put to is as a /tell from that loathsome subspecies of EQ player that get their kicks KSing, ninja-looting and training people in game.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 04, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Quote from: Camikazi on April 04, 2010, 12:08:45 AM
Resists do generate aggro, but only in the same direction the fully landed spell would have, meaning a negative aggro spell (a Jolt) will still lower your aggro resist or not. Just like a resisted nuke will give full base aggro a resisted jolt will drop your aggro by full amount.
They did go through and rework spell agro from land/resist a few years back but for the life of me I can't recall exactly what they did.
Is this a change in the last few years I missed?
I do remember lull's generating aggro that increased aggro, in fact I remember resists generating more aggro than a fully landed spell would.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a resist in a lot of ways doesn't it ? That being said I never thought a resisted dd etc should generate as much or more aggro than a fully landed one.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 04, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Is this a change in the last few years I missed?
I do remember lull's generating aggro that increased aggro, in fact I remember resists generating more aggro than a fully landed spell would.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a resist in a lot of ways doesn't it ? That being said I never thought a resisted dd etc should generate as much or more aggro than a fully landed one.
Lulls are not the same as Jolts, lulls if resisted and CHA check does not help will cause aggro, but that is not how jolts work, jolts are just damage in reverse, and all damage spells negative or positive drop or add full aggro when resisted. Devs confirmed it many times, first time was with Wizards and their jolts, next was Rangers and their jolts, always the same complaint and always same dev response jolts will drop aggro even if resisted.
And if you pull with Jolts it will still give enough argo for mob to come after you
Tested through Ranger Jolt Spell
Quote from: Tadenea on April 05, 2010, 04:32:56 PM
And if you pull with Jolts it will still give enough argo for mob to come after you
Tested through Ranger Jolt Spell
Yea that's the whole a bad spell was cast on me aggro mobs have.
Seriously I never understand WHY people bitch and moan that our community is trying to better our class... the wait and see or the be grateful for what you get thing is BS... Mages bitch and chewed about thier class and look where they are now..
I say go ahead and brainstorm if u feel like trying to make things better, my hat goes off to you for your effort! those that dont like it and want to flame a thread disigned to help our class should just stay away...
I really hope you guys can get some changes put in, but as seen with friendly pet and other useless "fixes/AA" SoE will ignore us :)
Thanks again to Tadenea for your help, as we dont have our own Correspondent for our class your input and effort is very appreciated :)
I still say we all buy cat like reflexes and then mass suicide off the GFAY spires in protest of this AA package :)
my 2cents would be (although unrealistic im sure) Adding Chameleon strike effect to our new FD AA with a SMALL chance to fade would be more beneficial then having 4-5 different deaggro tools... im using 3 hotbars as it is and still trying to figure out in my head where all these are going to fit in...
Quote from: Catnip_Inny on April 05, 2010, 05:13:25 PM
I still say we all buy cat like reflexes and then mass suicide off the GFAY spires in protest of this AA package :)
WIN
You can post your AA bugs on this post so says the AA Dev Elidroth
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=180&topic_id=161436#2433949
I think this whole fiasco (still can't quite believe that safe fall is real and not a April Fool prank) goes to prove that our community needs to present a more concise and thought out feedback in the future. We blasted Elidroth with dozens of AA suggestions, some of which were only asked for by a single person or weren't even intended to be stand-alone AA.
We need to give a shorter list and expand on those suggestions. For example, instead of "Give us FD", we could have said specifically what need it is intended to address and how to go about doing it. Want it for a pulling tool? We need to it to also FD our pets and we need to have at least some of the other AAs other classes have to reduce failures and a short re-use timer. Aggro reducer instead? Sucessfull FD counts down to a doom-like de-aggro effect if you stay down until it expires and a long re-use since we only need it if the tank slacks on aggro or dies. Since we didn't settle on specifics and made him guess at what we wanted, he implemented an ability that matched something from our list that didn't take him long to work out and we ended up in this case with an option that doesn't seem to be able to do either job well and he can say that we got what we asked for.
I just think that we would do better with fewer, more focussed suggestions than a huge list from a brainstorming session.
Just my opinion, based purely on speculation and zero inside info, other than me trying to put myself in his place if I received the input that we gave him.
Quote from: Sharrien on April 05, 2010, 08:49:36 PM
I just think that we would do better with fewer, more focussed suggestions than a huge list from a brainstorming session.
I think you're right on this point. Not having our own CL hurt us, Tadenea passed along our info for us which I do thank him for. However I feel one of our own could have moderated the suggestions better, filtered out bad/ridiculous ideas, set up polls or specific in game chat channels/times to get active discussion going.
The point I'm trying to make is I agree that a list of 10-15 highly desired, thoroughly explained desired AAs would have netted us better results than a list of 40 out of context "I can has....?" quotes.
I guess I'm just complaining again though, it's not like we haven't done our best to get a beastlord on the list.
Quote from: Sharrien on April 05, 2010, 08:49:36 PM
We need to give a shorter list and expand on those suggestions. For example, instead of "Give us FD", we could have said specifically what need it is intended to address and how to go about doing it. Want it for a pulling tool? We need to it to also FD our pets and we need to have at least some of the other AAs other classes
Are devs really this stubid or are they just acting like devil reading a bible?
-Raz
Shorter lists, better explanations. - Believe it or not, I agree. The problem is we get little or no feedback for our feedback. While I haven't run out of ideas, I've gotten through the bulk of what was lying around in my brain. The main point of a possible path to change was two-fold, sadly it seems to have failed at both goals :
1) To give a comprehensive, unified starting point where the beastlord community could point back to a single source and post in a single place what they saw as their preferred steps on that path, in a semi-prioritized order. Take the top 10 say, and have the Community Leader we deal with take that list to the devs. The devs would then yay/nay/maybe later the list and add one or more yay items to the list to fill it out if necessary (because they can do something with code they couldn't before, they have a cool idea they're willing to give us if we want it, our top 10 had only 2 yays on the list, ideas from feedback that didn't come here, etc.). Our Community Leader liason brings that annotated list back. Nays go to the don't ask for list, maybe laters go to the future proposal list and the yays get a thread with instructions - you can have (for example) 3 of the 5 on the yay list. We can then work from that list and get some sort of consensus/majority opinion on that smaller known to be possible list. Failure point -- (and this may come across wrong, but it is not meant as a slight to anyone except me) I assumed people would be willing to read and critique the material in a positive manner and begin pulling the list of more critical/desired material.
2) To provide the devs with a pool of material that highlighted some of what needs to be fixed, a philosophical viewpoint on the beastlord class to try and add some "depth" to it and explain/tie together existing material and to give them ideas to revitalize the class, which given the number of new pet heal/additional damage proc variations instead of more original material, decreasing number of spells and the gradual diminishing role beastlords have been experiencing in raid/group settings is something I saw as being needed. Any submission or pointing to of this material included mention of a need for two way dialogue since this seemed to be an underlying cause of the current state of things. Fail point -- I assumed that I would see a response of some kind, even if it was as simple as "Got it, thanks. Will look at it." or a polite version of "Shut up and go away." Given the total lack of response, I figured that it had gotten tossed in the "round file", made a pro forma attempt to bring the more revised, codified version to their attention, assuming (rightly) that no response would be forthcoming and left it at that.
At this point, I guess my initial assessment of what would happen was correct in that it was better to just look/lurk and not get involved and focus on playing, as I knew that I would have volumes to say if I got involved in the "political" side of things. Given what I was seeing in terms of where the game was going, I felt that I needed to at least try to keep the game enjoyable enough for me to justify continue paying/playing. I've made the attempt and now it's time to wait and see what happens. I suspect that nothing has or will change though, but I am pessimistic by nature.
Quote from: Umlat on April 06, 2010, 08:07:21 PM
The problem is we get little or no feedback for our feedback.
In the past I've seen at least acknowledgement of PMs to devs, but for the last few months nothing at all. Seven feedback PMs sent since Jan 1 for various beast or mage issues and all I got back was one from Elidroth saying he was busy with raid testing.
I don't know if there is more two-way communication on the CL forum, but I do think it is really hurting us not having a rep who plays a beast as a main.
Same issue here Sharrien. Rytan responded to my pm from early March saying he got it, but he was busy and would get to it in 1-2 weeks. 2 1/2 weeks later I pm'd him asking if he had made any headway, he never got back to that one and I haven't seen any appreciable changes so I'll assume nothing is being done until I see evidence otherwise.
You forgot to add the issue that beastlords love shooting themselves in the foot.
Rangers got their new spell changed from 10% success rate to 100% success rate so I post asking for the possum to go to 100% (thinking hey that would be to much but we might get to 80% out of it) and another beastlord comes and posts that that would be to powerful on a 30 sec recast time so if your thinking about it make sure you increase the re use timer on it.
Here is a hint, the Devs know how to not make an ability overpowered for beastlords (they have trouble it seems making an ability we would use) and if they miss something you can be sure one of the other classes will be more than happy to point it out to them.
Why are we the only class that asks the devs to nerf ourselves?
Seen your post on the forums BA has always allowed me too move freely while using.
Quote from: Awakening on April 06, 2010, 09:33:53 PM
Seen your post on the forums BA has always allowed me too move freely while using.
Well Iksar warders freeze when proccing, maybe BA doing same for Iksar Beastlords using it, I don't know many Iksar Bsts so no clue.
Quote from: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 09:11:28 PM
You forgot to add the issue that beastlords love shooting themselves in the foot.
Rangers got their new spell changed from 10% success rate to 100% success rate so I post asking for the possum to go to 100% (thinking hey that would be to much but we might get to 80% out of it) and another beastlord comes and posts that that would be to powerful on a 30 sec recast time so if your thinking about it make sure you increase the re use timer on it.
Here is a hint, the Devs know how to not make an ability overpowered for beastlords (they have trouble it seems making an ability we would use) and if they miss something you can be sure one of the other classes will be more than happy to point it out to them.
Why are we the only class that asks the devs to nerf ourselves?
Well if you don't think a 100% fd on a 30 sec reuse is a bit too powerful, /shrug, I don't know what to tell you. Just seems more realistic to try and get something closer to a reliable escape tool, rather than a pulling tool.
BA for iksar definitely freezes you graphically, but I've never noticed it "rooting" me in place or anything.
Edit:suck at spelling definitely
Quote from: Awakening on April 06, 2010, 09:33:53 PM
Seen your post on the forums BA has always allowed me too move freely while using.
Foot meet gun
Quote from: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 09:11:28 PM
You forgot to add the issue that beastlords love shooting themselves in the foot.
Rangers got their new spell changed from 10% success rate to 100% success rate so I post asking for the possum to go to 100% (thinking hey that would be to much but we might get to 80% out of it) and another beastlord comes and posts that that would be to powerful on a 30 sec recast time so if your thinking about it make sure you increase the re use timer on it.
Here is a hint, the Devs know how to not make an ability overpowered for beastlords (they have trouble it seems making an ability we would use) and if they miss something you can be sure one of the other classes will be more than happy to point it out to them.
Why are we the only class that asks the devs to nerf ourselves?
I agree with Sikkem, posting against each other on public EQ fourms is not exactly a great idea. Devs have already stated before that the split between the community is the reason some things have not gone in for us before, showing them proof with in fighting on those forums does not help at all. If any arguments go on it should be here, where we can figure out a way to present things well and mostly agree before going on EQ forums.
I also believe that a 100% working (or close) FD on that timer won't be overpowering, since even at that timer we won't be able to pull much of anything at all, and without the AA that keeps spells from breaking FD any caster will mean you are dead. It would primarily allow us to drop aggro more reliably, like pretty much every class can do now. Now that said I would rather have a jolt similar to Rangers Jolting Kicks line instead of FD, but would not turn FD down if they won't add in the jolt.
Quote from: kharthai on April 06, 2010, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 09:11:28 PM
You forgot to add the issue that beastlords love shooting themselves in the foot.
Rangers got their new spell changed from 10% success rate to 100% success rate so I post asking for the possum to go to 100% (thinking hey that would be to much but we might get to 80% out of it) and another beastlord comes and posts that that would be to powerful on a 30 sec recast time so if your thinking about it make sure you increase the re use timer on it.
Here is a hint, the Devs know how to not make an ability overpowered for beastlords (they have trouble it seems making an ability we would use) and if they miss something you can be sure one of the other classes will be more than happy to point it out to them.
Why are we the only class that asks the devs to nerf ourselves?
Well if you don't think a 100% fd on a 30 sec reuse is a bit too powerful, /shrug, I don't know what to tell you. Just seems more realistic to try and get something closer to a reliable escape tool, rather than a pulling tool.
BA for iksar definitively freezes you graphically, but I've never noticed it "rooting" me in place or anything.
Okay t isn't that I think its overpowered or not, its what the devs think that counts. For the record I do think it would be overpowered, hell I don't even want FD. I want a reliable jolt but I keep getting told that makes me lazy and all I want is an easy button.
We have been trying to get a reliable way to drop aggro for about 6 years and asking for what we think is realistic for longer. Look where that has got us.
Maybe its time we asked for stuff we think is over the top and the devs will give us a scaled back version that is actually what we want. You think asking for a jump from a 10% success rate to a 100% success rate is realistic? They got it.
In the long run it isn't about what I want for the class, it's about trying to get something for the class that is useful and hopefully gives us some direction to try and have the class head in.
I froze in BA last night, mob got pushed I was getting oor messages and couldn't move till I unfroze. Lost dps.
I wouldn't put it past some of the forum trolls to have bst personas to help us point and aim. Dunno if it's possible in this case and I can't be bothered to look.
Quote from: kharthai on April 06, 2010, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 09:11:28 PM
You forgot to add the issue that beastlords love shooting themselves in the foot.
Rangers got their new spell changed from 10% success rate to 100% success rate so I post asking for the possum to go to 100% (thinking hey that would be to much but we might get to 80% out of it) and another beastlord comes and posts that that would be to powerful on a 30 sec recast time so if your thinking about it make sure you increase the re use timer on it.
Here is a hint, the Devs know how to not make an ability overpowered for beastlords (they have trouble it seems making an ability we would use) and if they miss something you can be sure one of the other classes will be more than happy to point it out to them.
Why are we the only class that asks the devs to nerf ourselves?
Well if you don't think a 100% fd on a 30 sec reuse is a bit too powerful, /shrug, I don't know what to tell you. Just seems more realistic to try and get something closer to a reliable escape tool, rather than a pulling tool.
BA for iksar definitely freezes you graphically, but I've never noticed it "rooting" me in place or anything.
Edit:suck at spelling definitely
I have never had an issue with the BA graphic freezing costing me dps. But i am constantly strifing because the guild sucks at push so it might not have a chance to lock me in place either.
The biggest problem i have is EF getting blocked and canceled out by the test of blood proc, i think thats the cause atleast, while soloing/grouping. Thats far more annoying then the BA graphic freeze
Using BA in raids tonight, I still didn't notice any problems moving around.
Point taken on the aim for the stars and get a decent compromise stuff, but the ranger comparison isn't all that great. It's a spell that affects one mob, designed (presumably) to help them pull now that HA is gimped.
Quote from: Dragonfangs on April 07, 2010, 05:08:04 AM
The biggest problem i have is EF getting blocked and canceled out by the test of blood proc, i think thats the cause atleast, while soloing/grouping. Thats far more annoying then the BA graphic freeze
One of the few benefits of being slow at getting AA's. The utter crappiness of taste of blood was well know before I even thought about getting it :lol:
I do remember asking about someone about putting that in the borked aa thread though and no one seemed to think it was worth even trying to get it fixed.
Quote from: kharthai on April 07, 2010, 05:42:18 AM
Point taken on the aim for the stars and get a decent compromise stuff, but the ranger comparison isn't all that great. It's a spell that affects one mob, designed (presumably) to help them pull now that HA is gimped.
They had a 10% success rate we have a 60% success rate
They ask for theirs to be bumped up and it gets bumped to 100% success rate, we ask and other beastlords complain that would make it to powerful.
I think it makes the point quite clearly on what we are doing wrong at least in one part.
Six years we have been trying to get decent jolt, partly I am sure because the party line has always been lets get it fixed outside of beta when they have more time. Well heads up they very rarely fix things out of beta and when they do its mostly a cock up anyway. See Friendly Pet and even Jaws, 2 years and finally fixed, is it any better than when it was busted?
Get things fixed in beta.
Talked to one of the class reps and he said that, they gave us FD and option to get upgrades for it later. I'm ok with that if it will be usefull one day.
-Raz
Quote from: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
No it doesn't share a recast with anything. That's why it's frustrating. If these AAs go live we now have 4 ways to reduce hate. We don't need 4 ways to reduce hate, just like we don't need 6 pet heals. We need 1 or 2 good abilities, we have to stand up and fix this problem while it's still in testing phase, we don't need
It is a bit different isuue with pet heal. Atleast these deaggro skills stacks and can be bound in one hotkey. It doesn't bother me much.
-Raz
Quote from: Razimir on April 07, 2010, 09:36:02 AM
Talked to one of the class reps and he said that, they gave us FD and option to get upgrades for it later. I'm ok with that if it will be usefull one day.
-Raz
Well there's the nail in the coffin on ever being useful in a raid. Time to start work on Hzath2.0 I suppose.
Quote from: Hzath on April 07, 2010, 11:43:32 AM
Well there's the nail in the coffin on ever being useful in a raid. Time to start work on Hzath2.0 I suppose.
Level 55 and 30 AA's but my guild wont let me look at changing classes till september so I have a fair bit of time to prepare. :|
Quote from: Razimir on April 07, 2010, 09:36:02 AM
Talked to one of the class reps and he said that, they gave us FD and option to get upgrades for it later. I'm ok with that if it will be usefull one day.
-Raz
So we can have an antiquated ability now and get upgrades for it later. No doubt the upgrades will be ridiculously expensive and slow enough that the ability will always be way behind the curve in useability vs other classes' comparative abilities, assuring our 2nd and 3rd rate status at best across the board and guaranteed to take up enough AA space that our pets will stagnate until the shaman/sk/ench pets are superior. our overall dps will begin to slip below tanking classes in even sustained fights in part because by the time you remove the pet heals from our spell list, most melee classes will have more on their spell/disc list than we do. Favoritism and Bias are clearly becoming the core of EQ design.
Anbody know if they have "White Robe & Hood" Fridays at SOE?
Quote from: Sikkem on April 07, 2010, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 07, 2010, 11:43:32 AM
Well there's the nail in the coffin on ever being useful in a raid. Time to start work on Hzath2.0 I suppose.
Level 55 and 30 AA's but my guild wont let me look at changing classes till september so I have a fair bit of time to prepare. :|
I'm a bit ahead of the curve there, the other toon is 85 with 2kaa.
As for getting aa's fixed in beta....good luck. I gave up participating in betas because they listen to bst there just as well as they do here.
Spells during beta wasnt so hot, besides we got a frozen venom nuke sorta liek rangers, which we did request, um,
AA Wise Elidroth did a good job, I liked alot of what we got, soem good changes were made, and the IRC chat was a step int he right direction Via Dev and the players.
Quote from: Grbage on April 07, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
As for getting aa's fixed in beta....good luck. I gave up participating in betas because they listen to bst there just as well as they do here.
Yeah I gave up when any feedback we gave had to be given on the mage forum or he wouldn't even bother reading it.
Well that and the fact that he told us our spells where finished when we had none in game. :roll:
Quote from: Razimir on April 07, 2010, 09:36:02 AM
Talked to one of the class reps and he said that, they gave us FD and option to get upgrades for it later. I'm ok with that if it will be usefull one day.
-Raz
See Catlike Reflexes is an upgrade AA for when Possum fails. Thus Possum needs to fail alot for CR to be made worth getting. :lol:
Quote from: Sikkem on April 07, 2010, 10:19:29 PM
Quote from: Razimir on April 07, 2010, 09:36:02 AM
Talked to one of the class reps and he said that, they gave us FD and option to get upgrades for it later. I'm ok with that if it will be usefull one day.
-Raz
See Catlike Reflexes is an upgrade AA for when Possum fails. Thus Possum needs to fail alot for CR to be made worth getting. :lol:
I can almost see the joke in this and to me it is still a horrid AA. However, the only upside i can see to this line of AA's is if falling to the ground and you are not a Vah Shir with inate safe fall you can basically hit the ground without dmg, whether hitting the ground and taking dmg negates the FD effect i dunno but tht is the only real reason i can see a use for this AA if our new FD AA is worth a damn prior to live release.