The Beastlords' Den

Retracted.

QuoteI respect everyones opinion here, however I cannot violate my own personal principles due to the complaints of a few.

I have no problem with your sig, (even though it doesn't reflect my political views) but my "personal principles" don't include my right to advertise anywhere I feel like it - and advertising (not free speech) is basically what this is about.

Quote from: Eatbugs

QuoteI respect everyones opinion here, however I cannot violate my own personal principles due to the complaints of a few.

I have no problem with your sig, (even though it doesn't reflect my political views) but my "personal principles" don't include my right to advertise anywhere I feel like it - and advertising (not free speech) is basically what this is about.

As I stated many times before, it is not my intent to advertise.

Eatbugs, you get my personal apology for any discomfort my signature is causing you.  I'm sorry you see it as an advertisement.  I do not intend it to be such.  I apologize to you for the way it is making you feel.

I wasn't going to post anything, but I thought this was so priceless...

Quote from: Atropine_BBBased on principle, I will not remove the picture in my signature until after the election.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/Oneiromancer/BrokenLink.jpg)

I'm sure it will be fixed soon...but I had a good laugh.

Game on,

It's not about free speech.  No one is suggesting you can't express your opinion; it's about appropriateness and a statement like that is simply not appropriate on this forum.  If I wanted to see political stuff I'd go to a political forum.  This forum is censored and I'd not have it any other way; make a post with x-rated content and see how long it stays up.

Incite, I apologize to you too for making you uncomfortable with the picture in my signature.  You are correct that this website is censored to a degree, however my signature does not violate any of those posted rules.  I apologize for any discomfort my signature is causing you over the next 12 days.

I don't really see anything wrong with it, though considering the sig I'm surprised you don't play a necro...

I think a mod should and will make you take down your sig.

Would anybody care if I had a sig with a swastika flag on it? Dont tell me "its not the same". Its a political view in which you are forcing people to read.


Just curious if you are getting kickbacks from halliburton depending on how many people click the link in your sig. /salute "Hail Bush Reich"!

I have to agree here.  Perhaps if the sig was linked only in this forum, it would be appropriate.  Unfortunately, it's not.  This messageboard is not for political debate.  It is for the discussion of a specific class in a MMORPG.  That's it.  I applaud you for speaking out with your opinion, but this venue is a poor choice.

I apologize to you too avsfanboi for any discomfort the picture in my signature is causing you.

Is it necessary to have this debate and discussion in 2 different forums?  This Topic was about Atropine apologizeing to those that he may have offended with his sig.

Atropine, I was not offended by your sig but if I was I think it takes a great amount of appreciation to you community to at least apologize for the way that it makes certain people feel and that was not your intent.  I still believe in what i said in the other forum but do appreciate what you are trying to do in this one.

Then what are your movties for posting your political view on a EQ class messageboard?

I think its a load of crock that you think YOUR opinion outweighs the majority view of this board.

I am asking, no pleading, with the moderators/administrators to institute an ignore policy on this board for this reason.  If one person starts to think they are above the views of this community, then others will follow suit.  Give the rest of the readers here an option because we have no option other than to read the garbage we're being force-read.

I will not continue to visit this board if it stays the same.  Its not a threat, just giving my view... ONCE... in a post!

And by the way, being sorry, or apologizing for something means that you will do something to change it.  And you are not.  What you are giving is lip service.  You dont have remorse or regret, you dont care.  If you did, youd change it.  So dont patronize people with your lame-ass attempts for apologies.

apologize

\A*pol"o*gize\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Apologized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apologizing.] [Cf. F. apologiser.] 1. To make an apology or defense. --Dr. H. More.

2. To make an apology or excuse; to make acknowledgment of some fault or offense, with expression of regret for it, by way of amends; -- with for; as, my correspondent apologized for not answering my letter.

I am simply showing my support for not only the political system I believe in, but also I'm simply showing support for my candidate.  I'm expressing my belief in the American political system in my own way.  This is the first EQ messageboard I've been to where people are so oppossed to the way I choose to express myself in my signature.

I am using my freedom of expression here on a messageboard that I frequent, which abides by the stated rules of the messageboard.  

What are your motives for having my signature censored avsfanboi?

Quote from: LigaI think its a load of crock that you think YOUR opinion outweighs the majority view of this board.

I am asking, no pleading, with the moderators/administrators to institute an ignore policy on this board for this reason.  If one person starts to think they are above the views of this community, then others will follow suit.  Give the rest of the readers here an option because we have no option other than to read the garbage we're being force-read.

I will not continue to visit this board if it stays the same.  Its not a threat, just giving my view... ONCE... in a post!

And by the way, being sorry, or apologizing for something means that you will do something to change it.  And you are not.  What you are giving is lip service.  You dont have remorse or regret, you dont care.  If you did, youd change it.  So dont patronize people with your lame-ass attempts for apologies.

apologize

\A*pol"o*gize\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Apologized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apologizing.] [Cf. F. apologiser.] 1. To make an apology or defense. --Dr. H. More.

2. To make an apology or excuse; to make acknowledgment of some fault or offense, with expression of regret for it, by way of amends; -- with for; as, my correspondent apologized for not answering my letter.

Liga, I respect your opinion, however I do believe you are wrong.  I am simply expressing myself in a way that is within the boundaries set by the administrators.

I have apologized to anyone that I have made feel uncomfortable by my signature, as that was not my intention.  However, I cannot change the way they feel.  

I do not in any way apologize for my beliefs or for what the picture in my signature stands for.

The only problem I see is that really you just don't have to say it.  I'm sure I could add a sig at the end of every message I post that has links to pro-life, to T-cell research, to crispy creams, to united negro college fund and dozens of other things.  It's a matter of just becuase you feel it or think it doesn't mean you have to express it in this way, in this place.  Do you wear a T-shirt with that pict on it full time?  Do you answer the phone "hello, B&C in 04!"?  The problem as I see it isn't one of having an opinion or even mentioning it when asked, but rather putting it out there with no need for the context.  Understand that you are talking about having this in your sig.  This isn't a rants section or OOC discussion about politics, but rather you are going "hey slavekeepers maul owns, btw B&C '04!", "What AA should I get next, btw B&C '04!", etc, etc.  

It's just one of those cases where whether it's "right" or "wrong" or "violates the current rules" isn't the real issue.  It's obviously had multiple people complain about it, it obvious doesn't relate to EQ or beastlords in any way shape or form.  I really don't care or have issue with your sig, but your logic and behavoir since is flawed in many ways imo.  *shrugs*

Well Tastian, I disagree with you too.  If my signature does not violate the rules, then why should I not express myself in that way?

It doesn't hurt anyone.  People may disagree with it, but that is what I have chosen to put in my signature.  

Essentially you are saying that if it isn't EQ related I shouldn't put it in my signature?

What if I put a picture of a baby in my signature?  Perhaps if I put a picture of my house or place of work in my signature?  

What if I put a picture of ANYTHING not related to EQ in my signature that is important to me?

I have a feeling that it is an issue simply because of the picture I have chosen to use.

How about if I enlarge and photoshop in something about beastlords into that picture?

Will that satisfy everyone?  I will still be expressing my beliefs, however it will be EQ and beastlord related?

In fact that's a fantastic idea!!!

I will begin working on it today.  I think I'll do...

Beastlords for Bush in '04!!!

Everquest related... Beastlord related... and I'm expressing myself the way I choose.

Thanks guys!

The one I always thought was annoying was that little guy holding up a sign telling you what system you were running and junk.
It's not EQ related but I always saw people with it in there sigs.

Keep the sig and stop apologizing, or apologize and loose the sig.

Quote from: BulgeKeep the sig and stop apologizing, or apologize and loose the sig.

Well, Bulge normally I would totally agree with you.  I simply felt an apology was in order as this is a private community and I felt I had caused some frustration because of the picture in my signature.

So, I apologized for any frustration I may have caused, however I have never or will never apologize for my beliefs, principles or the content of my signature.

I am simply apologizing for any frustration caused by the picture, as it wasn't my intent.

I am however going to photoshop the image to include everquest and beastlords to make it more acceptable without changing the underlying message.

Who cares if you have a political sig?  I don't.  I sure as hell don't come to these boards to learn of philosphy, religion or politics.  I don't boycott the library because it has the piece of shit book called the Communist Manifesto.  So I sure won't be boycotting this board because you have a B&C sig.  Now if you had a pro NAMBLA sig I would think differently.

Either apologize and mean it or don't bother.  If you want to say that since you aren't breaking "the rules" you can express your opinion openly without regard for your fellow beastlords and not care then do it and be over it.  I've got a few questions for you though...

-  Do you volunteer to help the B&C campaign?

-  Do you walk around wearing a B&C T-shirt full time?

-  Well walking down the street or through the mall or anywhere else do you say "B&C in '04?"

-  What else do you do to support this system and this team that you believe in so much that you just can't hold your opinion inside on a video game based message board for 12 more days?

None of the above are againist any rules I know of and clearly since they don't break the rules you can just go to town and show your opinion that you obviously can't seem to keep inside.  Thanks for putting your opinion and beliefs above the happiness of many other beastlords and causing strife on boards that already have increasing issues because of the state of beastlord affairs.  *shrugs*  Guess I just care too much about other people and their happiness and need to start being far more selfish.

Yes, I am a Bush team leader in Concord, CA.

I do not wear a T-shirt everyday, however I do wear a baseball cap everyday.  It has a large W and 2004 on it.

I do get a lot of comments on the baseball cap from people everywhere I go.  I'm happy to listen to them and even debate our political opinions if they are so inclined.

I donate to the GOP and Bush campaign.  

I hope those answered your questions Tastian.

I apologized for the discomfort I may have caused as it was not my intention.  However, I will not subjugate my freedom of expression or censor myself when I am not in violation of the rules of this messageboard because of the opinion of a few of our more outspoken members.

I have already received PM's saying that there are members that support me 100%.

Here is the problem.  I don't mind politics, america or bush.  Totally don't care, don't mind, don't nothing.  Now where do we draw the line?  Do you realize that by absolutely having to post your opinion in a sig you are setting predence for it being ok to post links for nader, for the american nazi party for the KKK for segregation or people who are againist gay marriages and everything else.  You are hiding behind not againist the rules, do you really want to force the moderators to have to spell out everything for us?  

I have no problem with your opinion, I have no problem with talking about politics, but look at what you are opening the door to.  You could make a post in OOC or rants or whatever and debate your case or make your claim for bush, but your sig is in every thread.  In the equipment forums, in the AA discussions, etc.  Politics and basically your ad simply don't belong there.  You realize it's not againist the rules technically for someone to make up 3 accounts with pro-communist party sigs and follow you around to every single thread and post behind you right?  That's not good for the boards, or for beastlords though is it?  If you honestly value yourself that much more than you do these board and your fellow beastlords then good for you way to stand up for what you believe in and grats on having such a high sense of self worth.  I wish I could show such a complete and total child like disregard for others just because "it's not againist the rules".

If it isn't an advert, why are you intending on removing it after the election? Why not have "I like George Bush" as your sig, permanently?

Because after the election there will be no more campaign.  I am not advertising anything, I am simply putting up a picture that has quite a bit of meaning to me.

I will probably put up an American flag or something like that afterwards.  Perhaps a GOP picture.

I will now photoshop something beastlord into the picture, but as I'm at work, that won't happen until tonight.

What distresses me the most is that people think that it is a partisan thing here...that we are picking on your solely because of your candidate.  This is honestly not the case for me...I can't speak for others of course, although their posts speak for themselves.

Right now I agree somewhat with Liga...if we had a way to ignore users or, less drastically, ignore signatures, this wouldn't be an issue anymore.  Then you could have a picture of John Kerry holding hands with the goatse.cx man in your signature and I wouldn't care at all, since I wouldn't have to see it.  That's the only issue here...many of us simply do not want to see political crap here, regardless of its nature, and their presence in signatures leaves us no way to avoid them.

Game on,

Quote from: TastianDo you realize that by absolutely having to post your opinion in a sig you are setting predence for it being ok to post links for nader, for the american nazi party for the KKK for segregation or people who are againist gay marriages and everything else.

Ok, there is a difference here.  The american Nazi party, KKK and people who are againist gay marriages is descrimintory to Jews, African Americans and Gays.  What does his sig discriminate against?  Most of these orginazations are know for violence and hate crimes.

In fact, now that I think of it...

Political discussions come up all the time in public channels in places like PoK and the bazaar.

I will usually participate in the discussion as they are in public channels and definitely to my liking.

Essentially even in-game I am a Beastlord for Bush.

I will photoshop my signature tonight to reflect that in the picture I currently have.

That relates to beastlords, as well as situations I have encountered in-game in public channels.  I am essentially a Beastlord for Bush, and my signature will reflect that.  Hopefully that should resolve the problems people are having with my current signature as it does not relate to beastlords yet.

How can you say that a color graphic with a link to a website promoting something isn't an advertisment?  If I put a link of a big mac in my sig with a link to Mc Donalds.com am I just putting information out there about food? lol  

Look man, if you really want to force the moderators to explain to you that your sig doesn't belong in every section of this video game board that is frequented by people from numerous countries of varying ages then so be it.  

I have no problem with a bush quote in your sig.  I have no problem with "I <3 bush" in your sig (some might though for a different reason lol).  I have no problem with you starting posts in OOC and rants section about america, politics, etc, but these topics don't belong in the equipment section, they don't belong in the AA section.  If you made a post "Vote for B&C in '04" we'd have to move it to OOC.  You are using the kindness of the moderators to break the intent of the boards and of the rules.  No one I've seen yet has had a problem with your choice, your country or your view, but you are opening the door to numerous issues that these boards don't need simply because you value your opinion and your false assumed freedom of speech more than you do this community and your fellow beastlords.

Atropine, sadly I am beginning to think that you are simply being bullheaded about this, just for the sake of saving face. You believe it is your *right* to do whatever the heck you please, at the expense of the other members of this board. Despite your thin apologies, your unwillingness to take a step back and look at the big picture clearly shows that you haven't an iota of care for your fellow beastlords on this board. You are hiding behind the published rules of the boards, and you are trying to make the moderators here look foolish.

We have tried to *not* moderate this, in the hopes that you would step up, and show a bit of respect for your fellow board members. This is not happening. By our inactivity, we would be allowing anyone to just advertise whatever the heck they please.

If we moderate, and ban this, then we are seen as being too heavy-handed. I am really hoping that you will reconsider, and be the hero here. This isn't the place for politics.

Quote from: TastianI wish I could show such a complete and total child like disregard for others just because "it's not againist the rules".

I don't feel like I'm showing a complete and total child like disregard for others.

And thanks Tastian for putting me down like that.  I'm sure you would appreciate that if I said it to you.

Like I said above, politics is discussed in-game, in public channels, in zones where quite a few people congregate like PoK and the bazaar.

I will photoshop "BEASTLORS for" above the picture that I currently have.  As I am essentially a Beastlord for Bush Cheney '04 in-game.

chill pill time.

I am glad to live in a country where all those aggravating bumper stickers accost my eyes every day as I drive to work. I am glad I live in a country where the citizens trash up their yards and boulevards with political signs.

I do not agree with atro's choices, but he is just doing what americans do in an election year.

A thin skin and democracy do not go together.

In Memphis (and other places I am sure) there is something that I really do not like --  jerks that tear down the opponents sign, deface the bumper stickers (or key the car --- what morons).

What atro did is a RIGHT we have. Ignoring his (imho) terrible choice is our duty  :)  Complaining (or apologizing) is a waste of time better spent getting past campaign slogans and mudslinging and actually addressing some serious issues that we have.

Move on. Nothing to see.

It isn't a right.

We are all guests of the owner of this server, and the people who work to make this place happen.

Hell, none of you are even paying to come here, even though there is a bill to be paid.

It is not a political forum.

Quote from: JillieMTAtropine, sadly I am beginning to think that you are simply being bullheaded about this, just for the sake of saving face. You believe it is your *right* to do whatever the heck you please, at the expense of the other members of this board. Despite your thin apologies, your unwillingness to take a step back and look at the big picture clearly shows that you haven't an iota of care for your fellow beastlords on this board. You are hiding behind the published rules of the boards, and you are trying to make the moderators here look foolish.

We have tried to *not* moderate this, in the hopes that you would step up, and show a bit of respect for your fellow board members. This is not happening. By our inactivity, we would be allowing anyone to just advertise whatever the heck they please.

If we moderate, and ban this, then we are seen as being too heavy-handed. I am really hoping that you will reconsider, and be the hero here. This isn't the place for politics.

It is a topic discussed in-game, in public channels.

Jillie, I'm sure you have seen the PM's I had with Rhaynne.  I told her that I respect the wishes of the moderators and administrators, and if they choose to moderate my signature, then so be it.

However, I have taken a step back and looked at the bigger picture as I just replied to you in the PM you just sent to me.

I am modifying my signature to reflect my in-game stance as a Beastlord.  When politics is brought up in public channels, I am a Beastlord for Bush, and I will photoshop the change in my signature to reflect that, as this is a Beastlord messageboard.

Jol the point is those things aren't againist the rules either, but they aren't done.  He said

" I am not advertising anything, I am simply putting up a picture that has quite a bit of meaning to me. "

Some people in this world and believe it or not probably some people that read these boards would have pictures that have meaning to them that a vast majority of people don't want to see and that don't belong on these boards.  The fact is this is a message board dealing with beastlords and EQ primarily that is accessed by people all over the world of all sorts of different ages.  The topic and his opinion can be discussed in OOC or rants and no one I know of would say anything, however, he is hiding behind the kindness of the moderators so that he can post an ad for something in numerous sections that it simply doesn't belong on.

Precisely Atropine... when the subject comes up, you are a Beastlord for Bush.

As Tastian said, feel free to carry on political discussions in the OOC forum.

Your sig shows EVERYWHERE. So EVERYWHERE outside of the OOC forum, it is inappropriate.

I doubt that you are running through every zone in game and /shouting your political views.

The link has been removed, but the picture remains.

I will photoshop Beastlords for above the picture to keep it Beastlord related, and related to my character in game when such topics are brought up in public channels.

I've also seen oral sex and rape discussed in public channels.  Clearly someone needs to post a bondage link in their sig because ya know they just have that fetish and the picture shows something they feel strongly about.  Your arguements are flawed man and still you come across totally indifferent to the feelings of other members of this community.  If you refuse to see what you are doing and why it's wrong then so be it, we'll hold your hand for you make sure to spell every little detail out.  Save yourself sometime and don't bother photoshopping anything.

My points on the matter are as follows.  This isnt a politics board.  If I wanted to know his or anybody elses political positions in the upcoming election, I would go to a message board more suiting.  For instance, he is a supporter of Bush irl.  I could be supporting a poop eating contest but you wouldn't want to see that in my sig.  Even if I apologized for it, said I'd take it down after the big poop eating event, or whatever it doesn't matter it's not on topic, its not relevant to why we come here.

I find this somewhat related to the NFL's desicion on not letting Jake Plummer wear Pat Tillman's number on his helmet.  The league has rules against it even if what he is doing is good natured.  You can't put personal writing or stickers on your helmet.  Because if everybody did it, it would look like the XFL.

In conclusion, you might think your doing something YOU find good natured but it just isn't appropriate for the boards.  Things that express my personal beliefs don't belong here.

Tastian, now you are way out in left field.  

What you are talking about violates the rules and is clearly offensive.

I'm surprised you can even draw a connection between the two.

Look, if the moderators choose to remove the picture, then it is what it is.  In my eyes it is censorship as I haven't done anything to warrant such censorship in my posts, or by violating the rules.

I have removed the link from the signature picture, and I will make it beastlord related.

I don't ask for help here on this website, and I come here to share my knowledge of the game and help other beastlords where I can.

Please show me a post of mine where I don't try to help in some way.

Clearly a lot of people here have their priorities in the wrong place.

All I do is come here to help, and then I get persecuted by a few outspoken members for a picture that doesn't hurt anyone.

It really does show a lot about the tolerance some people do and do not have.

This entire thread confirms my belief that some people take things way too seriously.

Neight for president.

"All I do is come here to help"

If all you did was come here to "help" then why would you allow this to go so far? Why would you intentionally do things to upset members of this commuinity?  Why you say that it's your right, your belief, your opinion.  If you are only here to help please explain to me how beastlords are helped by your sig?  It doesn't belong in every section, it doesn't belong in equipment or anything else.  Make a post about the election or registering to vote or whatever in the OOC and rant section that is what they are there for.  The picture in your sig is doing nothing to help the people here, all it is doing is causing problems and opening the door for more problems down the road.  You have some intelligence to ya so clearly you see the future ententions of your actions, you've admitted it bothered people and yet you've repeatedly said that it's your right (which isn't true) and you have your convictions and opinions.  Sigh I'm done with this it will be handled soon, but I have other things to be doing.  Thanks for coming here to help by spawning multliple multipage threads, raising moderation on the board and ignoring the feelings of others.

Quote from: Tastian"All I do is come here to help"

If all you did was come here to "help" then why would you allow this to go so far? Why would you intentionally do things to upset members of this commuinity?  Why you say that it's your right, your belief, your opinion.  If you are only here to help please explain to me how beastlords are helped by your sig?  It doesn't belong in every section, it doesn't belong in equipment or anything else.  Make a post about the election or registering to vote or whatever in the OOC and rant section that is what they are there for.  The picture in your sig is doing nothing to help the people here, all it is doing is causing problems and opening the door for more problems down the road.  You have some intelligence to ya so clearly you see the future ententions of your actions, you've admitted it bothered people and yet you've repeatedly said that it's your right (which isn't true) and you have your convictions and opinions.  Sigh I'm done with this it will be handled soon, but I have other things to be doing.  Thanks for coming here to help by spawning multliple multipage threads, raising moderation on the board and ignoring the feelings of others.

I come here to help with the content of my posts, not the content of my signature.

Clearly there is a difference.

I'm still neutral, but Atropine...

"A Beastlord for Bush" ?


Mate, seperate EQ from politics. This is getting weeeeird.

I don't think it's a question of Tolerance, it's a question of appropriateness (is that a word?).  

If the mods or anyone else was intolerant, you wouldn't have made one post with that sig, and probably been banned until you change it.

What was (more than) politely said was this isn't the place for political discussion.  It's for a game.  As was said, if you wanted to start an OOC thread about supporting bush, more powah to ya brudder.  However, by using that insignia (or any variation thereof since your keen on that), you're putting political paraphenalia on the rest of this board, which is what I'm guessing the mods want to stay away from.

Quote from: Atropine_BBI come here to help with the content of my posts, not the content of my signature.

Clearly there is a difference.

Your signature and the content therein are attached to every single post you make, therefore there is no difference.  That is the crux of the matter.

Game on,

Quote from: LorathirI'm still neutral, but Atropine...

"A Beastlord for Bush" ?


Mate, seperate EQ from politics. This is getting weeeeird.

Yes Lorathir, I agree.  This is getting weird.

Weird that I have to defend a small unoffensive picture in my signature.  

Is a persons signature not supposed to reflect themselves?

I do not post political speeches on this website.  I do not post political topics on this website.

I have chosen a signature that reflects me.

I am truly saddened that this website has come to this.  Brought on by something I guess I won't ever understand.

I had a question in my very first post when this whole thing started...

I have always wondered what it is that truly brings someone to be annoyed or bothered by a visual queue or word or sound...

A small picture in a signature.  A signature that is suppossed to represent me.  It does.

I will await the nerf bat from the moderators.  It is apparent that Tastian has had his word on this as he has influence here.

Quote from: TastianSigh I'm done with this it will be handled soon, but I have other things to be doing.

What will be, will be.  

I want everyone to know that I respect the decisions of the moderators, and will not fight it if they choose to remove the picture from my signature.  That has been my position from the beginning.

At this point, the thick-headedness of the political ad sig owner is turning people off to the very message he's trying to promote.  Son, you're doing your cause a diservice by showing your disrespect.  You are not an owner of this web site.  Therefore, this isn't Burger King and you can't have it your way, nor should you.

Skratchen, I'm not trying to put a message out there.

I simply have a signature that represents me.

That's all.

So ask yourself.

What should I do if my sig that represents me affects other people negatively on the board?

Your not thinking about other people here.

Edit: typo.

I've had to step back and take a look at this topic and have realized that there will be no good solution to this.  This board will suffer whatever the outcome is.  3 pages is out of control on an issue such as this.  Both sides have a fair and valid arguement but will in turn cause many not to return when and if a desision is set down.  The knowledge that is passed down from here and the new Beastlords will be ones that suffer from it.

Quote from: YzakWhat should I do if my sig that represents me affects other people negatively on the board?

You should apologize and explain why you are keeping your signature.

Is that not suitable and respectful?

Erm - I think you misunderstood my response to your apology. (Although the second apology was pretty amusing, considering its utter insincerity.)  I really don't need an apology.  I don't care about an apology.  I don't even care about the sig.  I was simply pointing out that you're attempting to make a matter of principle out of something that isn't covered by any principle I can think of.  Spamming your political views in forums in which they're not only not welcome but not even on topic isn't a "principle."

The principle is based on my belief that everyone has a right to freedom of expression within the confines of boundaries set by judicial legislation.

In this case, the judicial legislation is the moderator/administrator, and the boundaries are the posted rules.

Based on my belief of that principle, am I not correct in keeping the picture in my signature?

Quote from: Atropine_BB

Quote from: YzakWhat should I do if my sig that represents me affects other people negatively on the board?

You should apologize and explain why you are keeping your signature.

Is that not suitable and respectful?

Somebody said this already, but apologizing and not having any action is futile.

You run into the person infront of you on the road.  You get out of your car and say, I respect you for driving and I apologize for hitting you.  You get back into your car and drive off.  That does nothing.

Quote from: Atropine_BBThe principle is based on my belief that everyone has a right to freedom of expression within the confines of boundaries set by judicial legislation.

In this case, the judicial legislation is the moderator/administrator, and the boundaries are the posted rules.

Based on my belief of that principle, am I not correct in keeping the picture in my signature?

The problem is, is that moderators have spoken. You know how we stand. The fact that you continue to argue with us means that you are not acting within the boundaries, eh? So instead of relying on you to take care of the situation, you are forcing us to. So, what you want us to do, is go through and list each and every one of millions of things that are not considered appropriate. Even though we have been trying to get everyone to use common sense, and police themselves.

So, no, you are not correct.

I retract my apologies.

There are very many intolerant people on this forum, and that saddens me.

It was just a picture people.

I think someone said it best when they said, "It's time to take a chill pill."

I choose freedom of expression over censorship.  However it is obvious that many outspoken members do not.

You are absolutely right.

We shouldn't be tolerant of people that enjoy shouting their beliefs in the ears of others. By ranting about your rights, you are stepping on everyone else's. All we want to do is keep the atmosphere of the board at a happy level. Political statements on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR POSTS (in the sig) are not conducive to this environment.

Again, you are absolutely free to take your political discussions to OOC forum.

Or, to another board.

So this is not censorship, just asking you to keep whatever political statements you want to make in their proper place. Just like we do with every single EQ and beastlord related subject.

I haven't made any political posts or had any political discussions.

It is your personal opinion that I am stepping on everyone else's rights.  There was never any rule against a political picture in signatures.

I don't bring political discussions to this board and I never have.  I simply put a political picture in my signature.

You are obviously not tolerant enough to accept that.

Quote from: Atropine_BBSkratchen, I'm not trying to put a message out there.

I simply have a signature that represents me.

That's all.

If you're not trying to put a message out, I'm sure you'll have no problem with removing that "non-message" in your sig.  

We're all guests in this forum, this community.  This isn't our own personal space to do exactly as we wish.  We should respect the community and stick to the purpose of this message board.  Simply put, you crossed the line, now own up to it and be a man by removing the picture in your sig.

/sigh

By you having the picture, you are making a political statement: I am a beastlord for George Bush.

That is indeed a statement. As you have even said: it's a statement reflecting who you are.

And again, I am proud not to be tolerant of just any old thing that just anybody wants to spew here. So being called "non-tolerant" is hardly offensive.

Quote from: Skratchen
If you're not trying to put a message out, I'm sure you'll have no problem with removing that "non-message" in your sig.

It was removed.

Quote from: JillieMT/sigh

By you having the picture, you are making a political statement: I am a beastlord for George Bush.

That is indeed a statement. As you have even said: it's a statement reflecting who you are.

And again, I am proud not to be tolerant of just any old thing that just anybody wants to spew here. So being called "non-tolerant" is hardly offensive.

So why then if it is a statement reflecting who I am, in game and in real life, should I remove it from my signature?

Perhaps because of intolerance of my personal or political views?  

Quote from: Dictionary.comintolerance

\In*tol"er*ance\, n. [L. intolerantia impatience, unendurableness: cf. F. intol['e]rance.] 1. Want of capacity to endure; as, intolerance of light.

2. The quality of being intolerant; refusal to allow to others the enjoyment of their opinions, chosen modes of worship, and the like; want of patience and forbearance; illiberality; bigotry; as, intolerance shown toward a religious sect.

This is a private message board.

Rhaynne clearly told me in her PM that I could choose to keep my signature.  Her tolerance is obviously not shared by all the moderators.

If there is going to be censorship of signatures, it should be a rule, and not something forced upon one person.  And as someone else pointed out, there are other signatures out there that are not beastlord related, and I think those showing IP addresses are just as offensive as a small political picture.

However, no one is doing anything about those signatures are they?

Therefore, intolerance is a factor here in twisting my arm to remove the signature.

Ban me for all I care, but this has to be said...

Youre being a bunny.

EDIT: No personal attacks on members please. If this thread degenerates any further, it will be removed and the offender(s) will be attended to. Jillie :)

Thanks Liga, real mature.

I've been nothing but respectful all the way up to the end when I was forced to remove the signature.

Then I simply spoke my mind about intolerance.

How is being respectful and having an honest debate being a Jackass?

Real nice of you to say.

Quote from: SkratchenSimply put, you crossed the line, now own up to it and be a man by removing the picture in your sig.

Nice edit Skratchen.

Great for you to put that in, like you had anything to do with me removing my signature, after it was already removed.

I did not cross the line.  The line was clearly drawn in the proverbial sand in the rules and regulations.  I did not cross it.  However, intolerance and outspoken members moved that line.

Quote from: Atropine_BB

Quote from: SkratchenSimply put, you crossed the line, now own up to it and be a man by removing the picture in your sig.

Nice edit Skratchen.

Great for you to put that in, like you had anything to do with me removing my signature, after it was already removed.

I did not cross the line.  The line was clearly drawn in the proverbial sand in the rules and regulations.  I did not cross it.  However, intolerance and outspoken members moved that line.

www.beastlords.org isn't our personal forum to constantly put out personal details about the person behind MMORPG character that represents you.  Your sig is in every post you make.  If you want to come out and say that you're pro-this or pro-that, find the forum and then say it.  But don't tack it on in every single post all over the place in this community.  No one else is doing it here regardless of what their political affiliation may be.  

You crossed the line when the community said that it wasn't welcome, regardless how want to flaunt the rules.  The rules in a private forum can change if the moderators deem that someone is abusing the latitude that we're given here.

Oh, and my edit was done in the middle of a flurry of replies.  I edited that post before I even saw your sig pic was gone.  I can't take credit for something I didn't do.  Nice try though.

Skratchen, you can't say the community said no, because there are still people that agree with me.

It wasn't one unified voice that said no political pictures in your signature.

It was a few outspoken members who wanted it gone.

This wasn't an act of a community, rather an act of a few outspoken members.  

As I said before I have gotten PM's with people supporting my 100% (in one case the guy said 110%).  There are people in this thread and the other that supported me as well.

So please don't try to say that this was a community thing, because people were split both ways.

You are seeing things through your rose colored glasses Skratchen.

Okay, here's another analogy.  As a graduate student in Physics, I have attended many seminars and colloquiums where talks/presentations are given by distinguished people in the field.  Many of these people choose to have each and every slide depict their affiliation, whether it be a university or national lab, what have you.  And this is perfectly reasonable.

Now, what if each slide had their political affiliation on it?  20 slides which proclaimed who they wanted for president in 2004.  The speaker doesn't ever bring it up...but there it is, plain as day, on every single slide the speaker shows.  How could the audience be anything but flabbergasted...for what possible reason would someone need to advertise their opinions like that?

Now imagine a conference...say the APS March Meeting where there are thousands of people giving presentations.  Can you imagine every single person having their political affiliation on all of their slides?  Even though it isn't rational, some people would then judge other's results based on their political party.  And that's not right at all...every presentation should be judged on its own merits, not something completely unrelated.

Hell, the analogy is so close it's starting to frighten me.  In both cases we have a very diverse group of people coming together to share ideas and information, with the subject matter clearly defined beforehand.  Some people dismiss posts on forums just because someone has bad grammar or spelling, while people can dismiss results during a meeting because the presenter speaks English poorly.

I see where you're coming from, Atropine, even though I disagree with you.  I hope that you can see where I'm coming from, even though you disagree with me.

Game on,

I see your point Oneiromancer, and the analogy is a good one.

However, you are missing one key point.

How many people on this website would actually choose to:

Go out and find a suitable political picture that fits within the signature guidelines.

Either host the picture themselves, or hope that the website that is hosting it keeps it up.

Post it in their signature for all to see.

I have serious doubts that there are many people, if any at all that are willing to subject something quite personal on a public messageboard for fear of something happening like what happened to me.

People coming out and clearly attacking my decision to use such a picture in my signature.  I just don't think many people would, even if it were to be allowed in a precedent set by someone else.

To suggest that simply because I am doing it that everyone else would is a leap in logic that just doesn't make sense in this case.

Ok, here's how i see this:

Quote
Because after the election there will be no more campaign. I am not advertising anything, I am simply putting up a picture that has quite a bit of meaning to me.

That means you ARE advertising just for this purpose. You have made multiple views and contradicted yourself for your reasons & your actions that you have or have not done.

In my opinion, you are simply trying to stir up trouble and doing a pretty fine job.  In general, we have pretty lax rules on posts, links, etc. However, this IS a beastlords site. If you could come across as being rational, I could have done many things including a political forum and said go post whatever you want there, jsut don't let it spread. As it is, you are trying- to find every loophole just to stick your ad for Bush up there (ie: photoshopping in something to do with beastlords just so you can still put it in your sig).

You are trying to force me to make a stand and see what I do, no matter which side I go on, I piss off people. That leaves me with this:

I have no choice but to make the signature rules much more strict so that this incident doesn't lead to further and worse signatures. Congrats on forcing me to come off as being a hardass and censoring stuff just to try and NOT let this forum degrade into being like other class forums.

Interesting choice Jaeren.

Especially the choice in blaming me for creating stricter rules, AFTER the offending picture was already removed.

Let's all be clear that the political picture was removed over an hour ago, and now Jaeren is trying to place the blame squarely on my shoulders for his choice to now make the rules "stricter."

Treating this as if you put in a new rule about not allowing politics in signatures, would be this drastic measure you are making it out to be.

I don't appreciate you trying to place the blame on me now that I have already removed the offending picture over an hour ago.

Nice administrative move there Jaeren.

It is your choice, and your choice alone to make or break the rules.  

Please if you are going to make an accusation that I have had multiple views and contradicted myself, prove it.  

I have read, and re-read all of my statements, and they are quite clear.  They all tie into a central theme of principled non-censorship, no matter what the case is, as long as it does not violate posted rules.

Your accusations are not appreciated when they are not valid.

I apologize for causing so much trouble with a few of the more outspoken members, but I have been honest, respectful and true to myself.

It is sad that now you choose to blame your choice in changing what will probably be a simple change in signature rules on me... after I have already removed the offending picture.

:?:

Atropine: I for one applaud and thank you for taking care of your signature.

This is an extremely heated topic, and it's been quite difficult to manage, hehe. There are some strong convictions on all sides of this. We never want to censor anyone, honestly. We have the BEST class community around, and the only way we got that way was by being decent and considerate to each other. Having strong convictions is always a virtue... but we shouldn't have them at the expense of our friends in the community.

I propose a group hug.   :D

Quote from: VoS JamondEDIT: pictures are ok, but let's keep the language clean! - Jillie  :D

Was this a picture of McGuyver at the Siegfield and Roy show?

You removed your sig with the intention of modifying it and placing somethign relating to beastlords in tehre for the onyl purpose of bypassing any such rules we came up with. You continue to spread this into multiple threads, you say it's not an ad but yet youa re only willing ot stand by it when it would be helpful to Bush, in other words, it's a ad spot for the time being and you wont stand up to it the rest of the year.

To me, that means you are just tryign to 1. get away with an ad or 2. cause problems or 3. both.

Quote from: Atropine_BB

Quote from: VoS JamondEDIT: pictures are ok, but let's keep the language clean! - Jillie  :D

Was this a picture of McGuyver at the Siegfield and Roy show?

Yes, lol!

Now then. Yankee-Red Sox game 7 is starting! I have some meaningful flaming and bashing to do! (Go Sox!)  :P

As atropine is getting bent out of shape and trying to blame me for making him remove the picture, I did NOT make him remove it.

I could have, it was my every right. I could have said get rid of it, dont bring it back no matter what. I could have said take it down until the issue is solved. I did not.

I let him and Konji keep theirs up and talked to Konji privately to see his reasons for the change. I was planing on doing the same to Atropine after raiding tonight as I'm not feelign well and came home, read a few messages and went to bed.

After reading the threads while trying to raid, I came to the conclusion that atropine really won't be happy unless I let him, the minority, control the community, which I won't allow. While I do run this site, I try to let the majority rule basically, and the majority is saying that the sig is out of place and even ones siding with atropine are now sayign he is hurting his own case. From what I can see, this subject will just tear the community further apart. There is no good reason for the link to be there for a short time unless it is an ad for the Bush candidate. So therefore, ads are banned.

A very simple thing that may have avoided all of this woudl have been to make a simple text link that you would stick behind not just in times of tryign to get elected. With your current take on it and timing, I can only look at it as being an ad. I'm sorry you disagree, but I have no choice unless I want politics to run rampant over the board.

It was my intention to personalize my signature with something that means a lot to me.

I'm sorry you took it the way you did Jaeren.  However, I have never done anything in the almost 2 years this forum has been around to cause trouble of any kind.

I have always been respectful and helpful in my posts.  

Heck I love the beastlord class so much I even took days out of my life to write a story (which I have every intention of finishing... life has gotten in the way recently) all about my beastlord and his adventures.

I've been contributing to this site since day one.

Now I made a bad choice obviously.  I did not mean to cause so much trouble, and I apologize for that.

I am passionate about censorship obviously, and that stems far back into my youth.  I see that I have taken things a bit too far, but I was always respectful.  I was always honest about my feelings and where I stood.

The signature was removed because Jillie was kind enough to help me to calm down and see things a bit more rationally through PM's.  Thank you Jillie.

Coming here and blaming me now for just doing this to cause trouble isn't very nice Jaeren, and I certainly don't appreciate it, considering my track record of posts on this website.

Perhaps Jaeren you should have consulted with you moderators before posting these accusations.  I apologized to Jillie and tried to make things right, but you obviously didn't talk to her.

I removed the picture from my signature almost 2 hours ago now, and you are still posting how I simply did this to cause trouble or get an ad in this website.

C'mon man, this website is great in my eyes and the people here, but if I wanted to advertise to swing voters, don't you think I'd do it in websites dedicated to people from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, etc.??

This place is not a good place to advertise politically.  Believe me, I'm a Bush team leader in CA, this would be the last place I would advertise.

I simply posted something that was very important to me, and something I wanted to represent me in my signature.  I got overly passionate about something I saw as censorship.

I apologized to a moderator, removed the signature, and now you are here throwing your weight around.

I'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.

In my view, you were just trying to cause problems after the image was noticed. I'm not saying your original intention was to. But you actions after that were very much trying to stir up an argument form what I could see. (eventually taking out the picture and putting in a link to the thread tryign to say how you were being censored, etc and even insulting the moderators, which you did reconsider and take down. saying you would put the image up again with something in there bst related, etc).

Quote from: JaerenI'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.

In my view, you were just trying to cause problems after the image was noticed. I'm not saying your original intention was to. But you actions after that were very much trying to stir up an argument form what I could see. (eventually taking out the picture and putting in a link to the thread tryign to say how you were being censored, etc and even insulting the moderators, which you did reconsider and take down. saying you would put the image up again with something in there bst related, etc).

Now, I never insulted any moderators.  I have always been respectful, and I tried to get my point across with leading arguments.

I did say they were being intolerant, but that was not meant as an insult, rather a pointed argument to hopefully get them to see where I was coming from.  Either way, that was taken care of in a PM to Jillie in which I apologized and told her that I really did not think she was truly intolerant.

So please, I was not trying to insult anyone here.

I did say I would make the picture beastlord related, so that it would fit better in this environment.  This was backed up by the simple fact that politics are a part of the in-game environment in public channels.  I thought it was a good idea, and hopefully would alleviate the adversity to the picture in my signature.

I was simply trying to come up with a solution to the problem since no one else was.

I felt like I was being censored unfairly, and that there had to be some sort of solution.  After hashing it out, that seemed like a viable option.

Jillie sent me a PM and I responded, then she responded back.  I had then cooled off and decided to completely remove the signature.

Now you come here Jaeren posting away that I was just trying to cause problems.

I have never caused any problems here before, and I only come here to help.

You say this is a community effort to have the picture removed, but if you go back and re-read both threads, there are people who support both sides, or just don't care.

It seems to me that you were influenced by Tastian replied to a PM from me that the signature was going to be changed, blah blah blah.  You seem to have taken almost his exact position that I am just here trying to cause trouble on these boards, which is entirely false and something I don't appreciate.

I've been posting here since the inception of this board.  

I've always tried to be helpful and respectful in helping other beastlords with the knowledge I have gained from years of playing.  

Now you are here trying to make all that go away, because of an incident that people including myself were very passionate about.

I have never caused trouble on these boards until now, and you are blaming me for doing it on purpose.  That is reprehensable.

Quote
Now you are here trying to make all that go away, because of an incident that people including myself were very passionate about.

Please don't put words in my mouth either or attempt to blackmail me. *NO ONE* in this community is unreplaceable, not even me. The admin position has changed a few times. If/when I ever decide to step down, I'll find a suitable replacement.

To be honest, I didn't talk to Tastian at all about this. I talked more to Konji than anyone else on the subject actually and that was just in the context of his own signature which I warned him could be subject to change if new rules were done.

I'm not saying for you to go away, I'm saying that politics is a very touchy subject and can bring about the demise of many things, including this forum if it were to continue unchecked. So, i'm stopping it right now to save everyone the headache and the nasty outcome that is likely to occur.

So, is this community that you are tryign to help really being helped at ALL by this ongoing nonsense about a signature that frankly has nothing at all to do with everquest, beastlords or gaming in general? People use EQ as an escape, a place to relax or many other reasons. Most of them do not wan tto bring in politics of all things to the game or game related materials.

The answer: No, this is NOT helping the community.  You are pissed off cause I had to censor you and that others did not agree with you. I'm sorry but real life is that way, not everyone will agree with you. If you walked into someone's house and started talking politics when many in the hosue did not want to and the owner asked you to stop, would you? Consider me the owner of this place for a moment, I'm asking you to stop the topic. Dragging it out further just makes us both look worse and makes the community suffer.

Did I want it to come to this? No, definitely not. I had to do something though as the threads and pm's were getting out of hand. Do I want to have to incrase the rules and therefore increase the workload of myself and the moderators? No, I want to have time to play the game we're all talking about.

Do I have to change the rules? Yes, it seems I do as this issue is not resolving itself, it is only making a bad situation worse.

Yer lucky I dont run this board no more I woulda just booted ya at the first sign of an arguement after removing your sig. You know you were stirring a hornets nest the moment you used that sig.

Politics, Religion, Sexual Orientation and Race have no place on this board. I dont even recommend taking it to Out of Character. It just simply has no place on this EVERQUEST BEASTLORD Forum.

Course thats just my opinion. I dont make the rules around here no more.

Quote from: Jaeren
Please don't put words in my mouth either or attempt to blackmail me. *NO ONE* in this community is unreplaceable, not even me. The admin position has changed a few times. If/when I ever decide to step down, I'll find a suitable replacement.

To be honest, I didn't talk to Tastian at all about this. I talked more to Konji than anyone else on the subject actually and that was just in the context of his own signature which I warned him could be subject to change if new rules were done.

I'm not saying for you to go away, I'm saying that politics is a very touchy subject and can bring about the demise of many things, including this forum if it were to continue unchecked. So, i'm stopping it right now to save everyone the headache and the nasty outcome that is likely to occur.

So, is this community that you are tryign to help really being helped at ALL by this ongoing nonsense about a signature that frankly has nothing at all to do with everquest, beastlords or gaming in general? People use EQ as an escape, a place to relax or many other reasons. Most of them do not wan tto bring in politics of all things to the game or game related materials.

The answer: No, this is NOT helping the community.  You are pissed off cause I had to censor you and that others did not agree with you. I'm sorry but real life is that way, not everyone will agree with you. If you walked into someone's house and started talking politics when many in the hosue did not want to and the owner asked you to stop, would you? Consider me the owner of this place for a moment, I'm asking you to stop the topic. Dragging it out further just makes us both look worse and makes the community suffer.

Did I want it to come to this? No, definitely not. I had to do something though as the threads and pm's were getting out of hand. Do I want to have to incrase the rules and therefore increase the workload of myself and the moderators? No, I want to have time to play the game we're all talking about.

Do I have to change the rules? Yes, it seems I do as this issue is not resolving itself, it is only making a bad situation worse.

So you are accusing me of blackmail?  Where did that come from?

You talk about people not being irreplaceable?  Umm okay, sure.  I don't know what bearing that has on the conversation at hand.

Please show me where I was discussing politics.  It was simply a political picture that meant something to me.  Which I removed myself, you did nothing of the sort.  The removal stemmed from a kind and understanding PM from Jillie.

I have never discussed politics on this board in any of my posts.

This stemmed entirely from my aversion to censorship.  And the fact that I was within the stated rules.  I was simply excercising my beliefs and principles based on that initial reaction to being censored.  This was reconciled and I removed the picture.

It would have happened if it was any other picture that wasn't political, but fell within the stated rules of this website, and people wanted censored.

Now you are making this out to seem like it is only because it was political.  Yes, that is probably why people comlained, but that isn't why I was so opposed to the reaction of a few outspoken members of the community.

You also totally ignored the members who advocated and supported my position in both threads.

Now you come here accusing me of blackmail and say that my only reason for creating this thread was to create a problem and get a Bush ad on your website.  

If you read the content of my posts, that was clearly not my aim.  My position was that I did not agree with the censorship of a picture that meant something of great importance to me, whether it be a political picture or a picture of something else, that fell within the guidlines and rules of this message board.

I'm so exhausted of this now that it is tedious to type.  But I feel I need to defend myself against your attacks.  

Blackmail?? Where did that come from?  You step down from your position?  What?  I'm now a political monster who is causing political discussions?  Huh, I don't remember mentioning anything political except the picture anywhere on this website.

Not cool Jaeren, not cool at all.

Quote from: JaerenI'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.
quote]

First thing in this thread thats really of interest to me - you have to play a tank or cleric on raids?

I'm done with explaining things to you Atropine after this post, you simply cannot or will not understand anything but your own viewpoint, which is what caused this problem in the first place in my opinion, your need to post whatever you feel you can without thought of any possible side effects. You are not banned, you are not censored. Yet. New rules on sigs will be brought in and maybe general rules to stop future interruptions like this. Because that's the main issue with all of this, you disrupted the forum enough that i got bombarded with pm's as did the moderators. If the issue had been one of many others, you could have been banned immediately or if others had been in charge... So please don't try to make me out to be a monster, I could have done FAR worse or extreme things.


And couger, i play my cleric currently due to there being an extreme lack of them on the server as Bengali & Konji & Jilli and a few others from the server can attest to. It's gotten to the point that a couple guilds have recruited from off server just to get some here.

QuoteThe principle is based on my belief that everyone has a right to freedom of expression within the confines of boundaries set by judicial legislation.

Using that banner and then removing it when it was obviously objectionable without being a pain about it would have accomplished your stated goal of getting your point across without alienating anyone and giving them second thoughts about supporting you or your point of view.  In setting up the situation, making absolutely sure "judicial legislation" would be required, then complaining about it ad nauseum, (why does this remind me of the ACLU?) you've demonstrated that your interest here is less freedom of expression and more creating a fuss.

Fine, you've created your fuss.  Happy now?

Look Jaeren, I obviously did understand others viepoints after I was able to get over the way I passionately felt about what I viewed as censorship.

You didn't remove the picture, a moderator didn't remove the picture, I did.  

After Jillie sent me that PM, and I had a chance to sit back and look at things, I did see that I was causing a lot of grief on the board.

From all of my posts, that was NOT my intention and never was.  Unfortunately hind sight is 20/20 and it is what happened.

You have to realize that there will almost always be issues people will be passionate about, and this happened to encompass two that inflamed many people...  Censorship and Politics.

I have already apologized for causing grief on the board.  What I do not understand is after I apologized to a moderator and fully removed the picture from my signature, why an hour later you come here and attack me again, inflaming me and causing me to have to defend myself and my position again.

Posting that my intention was to:

"To me, that means you are just tryign to 1. get away with an ad or 2. cause problems or 3. both."

Simply brought back the need for me to defend myself again.  Then talking about blackmail for a reason I still cannot figure out, is not a way to diffuse an already diffused situation.

The picture was gone an hour before you posted.  There was no need to further provoke me into defending my postion further.

I'm sorry for the grief I caused.  It was not my intention even though that is what happened.

I apologize.  The picture is gone.

The direction that this community has taken in regard to a simple picture is by far the most ridiculous action of political correctness to pacify hurt feelings... :cry:babies:cry:, and yes that is exactly what you all did.   I really enjoyed this board, but have no use or desire to use it anymore. :arrow:  :arrow:  :arrow:

Farewell Cyphen Wilder. That is your right to leave if you so wish. But to me, that also speaks of "cry baby" attitude.

The actions that were done were to negate hard feelings, not cause them.

I knew that I was bound to lose some people no matter which course I took, either you & atropine for stopping ads/sigs of this nature/whatever you want to call this if I did or others that complained about htem being here if I let them continue. I simply have to go with the majority and the greater good.

In the end, how does someone posting political views in every thread they post in help the community? It does not in any way do that and as was shown by this example, it hurts the community.

Jebus..  Did I miss the opening of senseless drama season again?

BC

The sad part is that I don't believe you went with the majority, you just went with the loudest speakers.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of thing.

I'm failry politically minded though.  Just my 2 cents worth, I think it is a SAD day when a person cannot put the president of the U.S. in their sig w/out getting bashed for it, period.  Whether you like the guy or not, he is in fact the President.

Again, just my 2 coppers.

Okay, let's go with an analogy here.

Suppose I become a figure of national importance in the US (god help us all) and am asked to appear on Crossfire.  Crossfire is a program that's about one thing - politics.  If I show up in a shirt that alludes to some EQ related issue I care about, ("Frogloks out of Grobb!") some fairly reasonable questions are going to be asked about my motives for doing so on a program where no one cares about that at all.  Unless I'm there purely for novelty value, I'm probably going to be asked to remove the shirt and wear something that doesn't distract from the issues at hand.  If I insist on wearing it anyway, I likely won't be allowed on, or at the very least I won't be asked back.

Make more sense that way?

DING! You win!

Perfect example Eatbugs.

Quote from: EatbugsOkay, let's go with an analogy here.

Suppose I become a figure of national importance in the US (god help us all) and am asked to appear on Crossfire.  Crossfire is a program that's about one thing - politics.  If I show up in a shirt that alludes to some EQ related issue I care about, ("Frogloks out of Grobb!") some fairly reasonable questions are going to be asked about my motives for doing so on a program where no one cares about that at all.  Unless I'm there purely for novelty value, I'm probably going to be asked to remove the shirt and wear something that doesn't distract from the issues at hand.  If I insist on wearing it anyway, I likely won't be allowed on, or at the very least I won't be asked back.

Make more sense that way?

Quote from: ChadoeThe sad part is that I don't believe you went with the majority, you just went with the loudest speakers.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of thing.

I'm failry politically minded though.  Just my 2 cents worth, I think it is a SAD day when a person cannot put the president of the U.S. in their sig w/out getting bashed for it, period.  Whether you like the guy or not, he is in fact the President.

Again, just my 2 coppers.

Why do people keep thinking the issue was "bush bashing" or some crapola?  :roll:  I could care less if you like Bush, Kerry, or Hitler for that matter.  It's a matter of what was appropriate content.

How many OTHER people decided to put campaign slogans up in their sigs?  Could we have?  Probably.  I'm quite sure we have a strong partisan showing here.  Did we?  No.  Why?  Because this msgboard is for EVERQUEST, NOT POLITICS.  

Also, I would like to point out something.  You complain about rights and censorship, yet in the same breath complain that only the loudest speakers were heard.  If the majority thought the other way, why didn't THEY speak up too?  Just a quick glance over the threads I count about 20 or so individuals who said something (forgive if my numbers are off).  Therefore, forgive me if I don't feel pity for those complaining from the sidelines (if there are any).  

Eatbugs:  Good example.  /nod

I've been trying to stay objective, but this thread is turning into a senseless flame war.  The mods are doing a fine job of trying to make everyone happy all the time, and THEY are the ones getting bashed for it.  I just don't understand anymore.

The issue has been resolved.  The Sig has been removed by its owner.  The owner understands the reason to bring it down.  Why is this topic still an issue.

Drags in a dead horse!
Begins to beat it!

Let it go and move along!

Quote from: ChadoeThe sad part is that I don't believe you went with the majority, you just went with the loudest speakers.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of thing.

I'm failry politically minded though.  Just my 2 cents worth, I think it is a SAD day when a person cannot put the president of the U.S. in their sig w/out getting bashed for it, period.  Whether you like the guy or not, he is in fact the President.

Again, just my 2 coppers.

The term "Bush/Cheney '04" is not a picture of our president. It is referring to the campaign. And no one was getting bashed. We get enough mind-numbing coverage of this election in every facet of the media... EQ is a hobby, an escape. People don't want to see those things here, splattered in every forum because it's in a sig.

And once again, Chadoe, if you would read through this thread (which you apparently have not done) you would see that we are NOT censoring anyone! You can talk politics, sports, whatever you want in the proper forums! Politics belongs in OOC. That is fine. But making a sig with it brings it to EVERY forum you post in. The whole point of catagorizing the forum topics is so that you can filter out what you don't want to see, so you can read just the things that you are interested in. If you do not wish to view OOC politics topics, you shouldn't have to see them everywhere.

Actually I did read through the mind numbing 4 pages, and in the beginning I thought that it was in fact just about something being outside the lines.  However, after reading all of it, and I'm not talking about the mods, I think they did a fine job, and do a fine job, it became people (in my opinion) bashing what he believes in.  I've seen a ton of sigs on a ton of message boards that don't necessarily seem to fit, to me that is part of what makes the communities great.

It bothers me because I see many people, Kerry and Bush supporters, being ostracized based purely on their beliefs for a democratic function.

I see the point, and believe it is valid , that the signature is going to be across all forums, but again, not to be mean, a picture saying Kerry /04 or Bush /04, at the bottom of a post is somehow demeaning to people, or causing them to enjoy a game/message board less seems way out there.

Again, that's just to me.  I said I believe that the mods on this board do an excellent job, and I think it is the best Beastlord board around.  I really enjoy reading everyone's posts.  I also think many more people didn't say anything in support because of hostile treatment towards those that did.  (And yes, some of the responses where definetely on the hostile side).

Quoteit became people (in my opinion) bashing what he believes in

I can't find a single instance of that in this thread.  Can you point me to one?

I am sorry Chadoe, but I see not a single instance of Bush-bashing here. The one instance I saw of real flaming was taken care of.

If you are referring to people who simply disagree with Atropine, then you are correct, there are people voicing their opposing opinions... as there should be. There is much discussion here, that is what this thread is about. As long as we can do so in a civil manner, disagreements SHOULD always be encouraged. That is the whole point of being a community. Interaction. But never at the expense of being courteous and polite to others.

Darn you Eatbugs! That was the exact[/b] same analogy I was going to use! Well, maybe not exact..... I was going to go for a political rally as the background scene, but same thing none-the-less!

frankly atr's been the most hostile person here imo, he makes it sound civil but there are plenty of hidden jabs in his posts if you know how to look for them, as well as the over all tone "im right, your wrong, im american you are sensoring me therefore unamerican" etc.

it IS cenorship, just like cuss words are sensored, nudity, and other inapropiate things...this falls into one of those categories.

bunny and bunny in 04 !

With the issue resolved and the world of the Den returning to its normal organized chaos and to just end this whole silly affair, I'm locking the thread.  Continue on with PMs if you want, but I'd like to see this whole messy affair over with.

Thanks.