Apology

[Atropine_BB]

EDIT: pictures are ok, but let's keep the language clean! - Jillie  :D

Was this a picture of McGuyver at the Siegfield and Roy show?

[Jaeren]

You removed your sig with the intention of modifying it and placing somethign relating to beastlords in tehre for the onyl purpose of bypassing any such rules we came up with. You continue to spread this into multiple threads, you say it's not an ad but yet youa re only willing ot stand by it when it would be helpful to Bush, in other words, it's a ad spot for the time being and you wont stand up to it the rest of the year.

To me, that means you are just tryign to 1. get away with an ad or 2. cause problems or 3. both.

[JillieMT]

EDIT: pictures are ok, but let's keep the language clean! - Jillie  :D

Was this a picture of McGuyver at the Siegfield and Roy show?

Yes, lol!

Now then. Yankee-Red Sox game 7 is starting! I have some meaningful flaming and bashing to do! (Go Sox!)  :P

[Jaeren]

As atropine is getting bent out of shape and trying to blame me for making him remove the picture, I did NOT make him remove it.

I could have, it was my every right. I could have said get rid of it, dont bring it back no matter what. I could have said take it down until the issue is solved. I did not.

I let him and Konji keep theirs up and talked to Konji privately to see his reasons for the change. I was planing on doing the same to Atropine after raiding tonight as I'm not feelign well and came home, read a few messages and went to bed.

After reading the threads while trying to raid, I came to the conclusion that atropine really won't be happy unless I let him, the minority, control the community, which I won't allow. While I do run this site, I try to let the majority rule basically, and the majority is saying that the sig is out of place and even ones siding with atropine are now sayign he is hurting his own case. From what I can see, this subject will just tear the community further apart. There is no good reason for the link to be there for a short time unless it is an ad for the Bush candidate. So therefore, ads are banned.

A very simple thing that may have avoided all of this woudl have been to make a simple text link that you would stick behind not just in times of tryign to get elected. With your current take on it and timing, I can only look at it as being an ad. I'm sorry you disagree, but I have no choice unless I want politics to run rampant over the board.

[Atropine_BB]

It was my intention to personalize my signature with something that means a lot to me.

I'm sorry you took it the way you did Jaeren.  However, I have never done anything in the almost 2 years this forum has been around to cause trouble of any kind.

I have always been respectful and helpful in my posts.  

Heck I love the beastlord class so much I even took days out of my life to write a story (which I have every intention of finishing... life has gotten in the way recently) all about my beastlord and his adventures.

I've been contributing to this site since day one.

Now I made a bad choice obviously.  I did not mean to cause so much trouble, and I apologize for that.

I am passionate about censorship obviously, and that stems far back into my youth.  I see that I have taken things a bit too far, but I was always respectful.  I was always honest about my feelings and where I stood.

The signature was removed because Jillie was kind enough to help me to calm down and see things a bit more rationally through PM's.  Thank you Jillie.

Coming here and blaming me now for just doing this to cause trouble isn't very nice Jaeren, and I certainly don't appreciate it, considering my track record of posts on this website.

[Atropine_BB]

Perhaps Jaeren you should have consulted with you moderators before posting these accusations.  I apologized to Jillie and tried to make things right, but you obviously didn't talk to her.

I removed the picture from my signature almost 2 hours ago now, and you are still posting how I simply did this to cause trouble or get an ad in this website.

C'mon man, this website is great in my eyes and the people here, but if I wanted to advertise to swing voters, don't you think I'd do it in websites dedicated to people from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, etc.??

This place is not a good place to advertise politically.  Believe me, I'm a Bush team leader in CA, this would be the last place I would advertise.

I simply posted something that was very important to me, and something I wanted to represent me in my signature.  I got overly passionate about something I saw as censorship.

I apologized to a moderator, removed the signature, and now you are here throwing your weight around.

[Jaeren]

I'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.

In my view, you were just trying to cause problems after the image was noticed. I'm not saying your original intention was to. But you actions after that were very much trying to stir up an argument form what I could see. (eventually taking out the picture and putting in a link to the thread tryign to say how you were being censored, etc and even insulting the moderators, which you did reconsider and take down. saying you would put the image up again with something in there bst related, etc).

[Atropine_BB]

I'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.

In my view, you were just trying to cause problems after the image was noticed. I'm not saying your original intention was to. But you actions after that were very much trying to stir up an argument form what I could see. (eventually taking out the picture and putting in a link to the thread tryign to say how you were being censored, etc and even insulting the moderators, which you did reconsider and take down. saying you would put the image up again with something in there bst related, etc).

Now, I never insulted any moderators.  I have always been respectful, and I tried to get my point across with leading arguments.

I did say they were being intolerant, but that was not meant as an insult, rather a pointed argument to hopefully get them to see where I was coming from.  Either way, that was taken care of in a PM to Jillie in which I apologized and told her that I really did not think she was truly intolerant.

So please, I was not trying to insult anyone here.

I did say I would make the picture beastlord related, so that it would fit better in this environment.  This was backed up by the simple fact that politics are a part of the in-game environment in public channels.  I thought it was a good idea, and hopefully would alleviate the adversity to the picture in my signature.

I was simply trying to come up with a solution to the problem since no one else was.

I felt like I was being censored unfairly, and that there had to be some sort of solution.  After hashing it out, that seemed like a viable option.

Jillie sent me a PM and I responded, then she responded back.  I had then cooled off and decided to completely remove the signature.

Now you come here Jaeren posting away that I was just trying to cause problems.

I have never caused any problems here before, and I only come here to help.

You say this is a community effort to have the picture removed, but if you go back and re-read both threads, there are people who support both sides, or just don't care.

It seems to me that you were influenced by Tastian replied to a PM from me that the signature was going to be changed, blah blah blah.  You seem to have taken almost his exact position that I am just here trying to cause trouble on these boards, which is entirely false and something I don't appreciate.

I've been posting here since the inception of this board.  

I've always tried to be helpful and respectful in helping other beastlords with the knowledge I have gained from years of playing.  

Now you are here trying to make all that go away, because of an incident that people including myself were very passionate about.

I have never caused trouble on these boards until now, and you are blaming me for doing it on purpose.  That is reprehensable.

[Jaeren]

Now you are here trying to make all that go away, because of an incident that people including myself were very passionate about.

Please don't put words in my mouth either or attempt to blackmail me. *NO ONE* in this community is unreplaceable, not even me. The admin position has changed a few times. If/when I ever decide to step down, I'll find a suitable replacement.

To be honest, I didn't talk to Tastian at all about this. I talked more to Konji than anyone else on the subject actually and that was just in the context of his own signature which I warned him could be subject to change if new rules were done.

I'm not saying for you to go away, I'm saying that politics is a very touchy subject and can bring about the demise of many things, including this forum if it were to continue unchecked. So, i'm stopping it right now to save everyone the headache and the nasty outcome that is likely to occur.

So, is this community that you are tryign to help really being helped at ALL by this ongoing nonsense about a signature that frankly has nothing at all to do with everquest, beastlords or gaming in general? People use EQ as an escape, a place to relax or many other reasons. Most of them do not wan tto bring in politics of all things to the game or game related materials.

The answer: No, this is NOT helping the community.  You are pissed off cause I had to censor you and that others did not agree with you. I'm sorry but real life is that way, not everyone will agree with you. If you walked into someone's house and started talking politics when many in the hosue did not want to and the owner asked you to stop, would you? Consider me the owner of this place for a moment, I'm asking you to stop the topic. Dragging it out further just makes us both look worse and makes the community suffer.

Did I want it to come to this? No, definitely not. I had to do something though as the threads and pm's were getting out of hand. Do I want to have to incrase the rules and therefore increase the workload of myself and the moderators? No, I want to have time to play the game we're all talking about.

Do I have to change the rules? Yes, it seems I do as this issue is not resolving itself, it is only making a bad situation worse.

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

Yer lucky I dont run this board no more I woulda just booted ya at the first sign of an arguement after removing your sig. You know you were stirring a hornets nest the moment you used that sig.

Politics, Religion, Sexual Orientation and Race have no place on this board. I dont even recommend taking it to Out of Character. It just simply has no place on this EVERQUEST BEASTLORD Forum.

Course thats just my opinion. I dont make the rules around here no more.

[Atropine_BB]

Please don't put words in my mouth either or attempt to blackmail me. *NO ONE* in this community is unreplaceable, not even me. The admin position has changed a few times. If/when I ever decide to step down, I'll find a suitable replacement.

To be honest, I didn't talk to Tastian at all about this. I talked more to Konji than anyone else on the subject actually and that was just in the context of his own signature which I warned him could be subject to change if new rules were done.

I'm not saying for you to go away, I'm saying that politics is a very touchy subject and can bring about the demise of many things, including this forum if it were to continue unchecked. So, i'm stopping it right now to save everyone the headache and the nasty outcome that is likely to occur.

So, is this community that you are tryign to help really being helped at ALL by this ongoing nonsense about a signature that frankly has nothing at all to do with everquest, beastlords or gaming in general? People use EQ as an escape, a place to relax or many other reasons. Most of them do not wan tto bring in politics of all things to the game or game related materials.

The answer: No, this is NOT helping the community.  You are pissed off cause I had to censor you and that others did not agree with you. I'm sorry but real life is that way, not everyone will agree with you. If you walked into someone's house and started talking politics when many in the hosue did not want to and the owner asked you to stop, would you? Consider me the owner of this place for a moment, I'm asking you to stop the topic. Dragging it out further just makes us both look worse and makes the community suffer.

Did I want it to come to this? No, definitely not. I had to do something though as the threads and pm's were getting out of hand. Do I want to have to incrase the rules and therefore increase the workload of myself and the moderators? No, I want to have time to play the game we're all talking about.

Do I have to change the rules? Yes, it seems I do as this issue is not resolving itself, it is only making a bad situation worse.

So you are accusing me of blackmail?  Where did that come from?

You talk about people not being irreplaceable?  Umm okay, sure.  I don't know what bearing that has on the conversation at hand.

Please show me where I was discussing politics.  It was simply a political picture that meant something to me.  Which I removed myself, you did nothing of the sort.  The removal stemmed from a kind and understanding PM from Jillie.

I have never discussed politics on this board in any of my posts.

This stemmed entirely from my aversion to censorship.  And the fact that I was within the stated rules.  I was simply excercising my beliefs and principles based on that initial reaction to being censored.  This was reconciled and I removed the picture.

It would have happened if it was any other picture that wasn't political, but fell within the stated rules of this website, and people wanted censored.

Now you are making this out to seem like it is only because it was political.  Yes, that is probably why people comlained, but that isn't why I was so opposed to the reaction of a few outspoken members of the community.

You also totally ignored the members who advocated and supported my position in both threads.

Now you come here accusing me of blackmail and say that my only reason for creating this thread was to create a problem and get a Bush ad on your website.  

If you read the content of my posts, that was clearly not my aim.  My position was that I did not agree with the censorship of a picture that meant something of great importance to me, whether it be a political picture or a picture of something else, that fell within the guidlines and rules of this message board.

I'm so exhausted of this now that it is tedious to type.  But I feel I need to defend myself against your attacks.  

Blackmail?? Where did that come from?  You step down from your position?  What?  I'm now a political monster who is causing political discussions?  Huh, I don't remember mentioning anything political except the picture anywhere on this website.

Not cool Jaeren, not cool at all.

[cougerofeq]

I'm sorry for coming off as a hardass but I put a lot of time into this site and due to my own guild's need's I don't even get to PLAY my beastlord. So i'm doing all of this for a class that I can't even play right now.
quote]

First thing in this thread thats really of interest to me - you have to play a tank or cleric on raids?

[Jaeren]

I'm done with explaining things to you Atropine after this post, you simply cannot or will not understand anything but your own viewpoint, which is what caused this problem in the first place in my opinion, your need to post whatever you feel you can without thought of any possible side effects. You are not banned, you are not censored. Yet. New rules on sigs will be brought in and maybe general rules to stop future interruptions like this. Because that's the main issue with all of this, you disrupted the forum enough that i got bombarded with pm's as did the moderators. If the issue had been one of many others, you could have been banned immediately or if others had been in charge... So please don't try to make me out to be a monster, I could have done FAR worse or extreme things.


And couger, i play my cleric currently due to there being an extreme lack of them on the server as Bengali & Konji & Jilli and a few others from the server can attest to. It's gotten to the point that a couple guilds have recruited from off server just to get some here.

[Eatbugs]

The principle is based on my belief that everyone has a right to freedom of expression within the confines of boundaries set by judicial legislation.

Using that banner and then removing it when it was obviously objectionable without being a pain about it would have accomplished your stated goal of getting your point across without alienating anyone and giving them second thoughts about supporting you or your point of view.  In setting up the situation, making absolutely sure "judicial legislation" would be required, then complaining about it ad nauseum, (why does this remind me of the ACLU?) you've demonstrated that your interest here is less freedom of expression and more creating a fuss.

Fine, you've created your fuss.  Happy now?

[Atropine_BB]

Look Jaeren, I obviously did understand others viepoints after I was able to get over the way I passionately felt about what I viewed as censorship.

You didn't remove the picture, a moderator didn't remove the picture, I did.  

After Jillie sent me that PM, and I had a chance to sit back and look at things, I did see that I was causing a lot of grief on the board.

From all of my posts, that was NOT my intention and never was.  Unfortunately hind sight is 20/20 and it is what happened.

You have to realize that there will almost always be issues people will be passionate about, and this happened to encompass two that inflamed many people...  Censorship and Politics.

I have already apologized for causing grief on the board.  What I do not understand is after I apologized to a moderator and fully removed the picture from my signature, why an hour later you come here and attack me again, inflaming me and causing me to have to defend myself and my position again.

Posting that my intention was to:

"To me, that means you are just tryign to 1. get away with an ad or 2. cause problems or 3. both."

Simply brought back the need for me to defend myself again.  Then talking about blackmail for a reason I still cannot figure out, is not a way to diffuse an already diffused situation.

The picture was gone an hour before you posted.  There was no need to further provoke me into defending my postion further.

I'm sorry for the grief I caused.  It was not my intention even though that is what happened.

I apologize.  The picture is gone.