The Beastlords' Den

OOMG the dps is crap. I want mage pet! lol

Is it a downgrade from Silverwing?

Mages in my guild would tell you to play a mage then...  I tried to bring up that our pet only got half the boost a mage pet got, despite already being weaker(from SoF boost), and they said to play a mage :)

I'm only 82, so i haven't seen the new pet yet.
Also the mages in guild aren't acting like the SoD pet is any big increase to them.

The dps is just pathetic and embarassing.

lets do some lobby for a stronger and more dps pet

i dont think a few hundred more pet dps makes us too powerfull

would be fun if all beastlords suddenly dissapeared together from everquest to show the developers that its serious to us.

honestly i think we are worthy to have a powerfull pet
its quite annoying that a lord of beasts has a pet that is a baby of beasts

enjoy

The information has been provided. Dummkopf has done hours of parses (thanks), provided the information, and nothing has been shown to make an improvement. Even a few of the predominant magicians agreed that the pet DPS we had was "pathetic" (direct quote).

Prathun is notorious for being both stubborn and non-communicative. If you enter the tutorial, it's actually fairly amusing to see this:

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1741/ironyfl5.jpg)

It's not that nobody tried. It's a lack of effort on the development team.

Why the heck are they so wimpy to begin with?

Our pets are weaker because we are (defensively) stronger than a Magician. They are also completely limited by mob resists outside of their pet. All of their individual DPS comes from spells, so factoring in resists means their dps decreases, where as ours doesn't really. They have to rely on their pet much more than we do to be a functional class.

Our pet blows, hits for 3 more damage. The best part was when I summoned it, it's light blue at 83.

Quote from: Inphared on October 22, 2008, 09:53:57 PM
Our pets are weaker because we are (defensively) stronger than a Magician. They are also completely limited by mob resists outside of their pet. All of their individual DPS comes from spells, so factoring in resists means their dps decreases, where as ours doesn't really. They have to rely on their pet much more than we do to be a functional class.

So because they defensively rely on their pets means our pets DPS has to be low? Yea they rely on spells for THEIR DPS, not the pets high DPS or servants VERY high DPS btw, but they got malo line to increase their chance of landing spells. Last I checked we kind of need spells to do our top DPS too, kind of like a caster. No focused paragon does not balance us against their pets and spell DPS, or their pet defensive capability, or their mod rods, or their mala line, or that neat little Necessity escape AA, or that nuke that increases in dmg the more pets are out. or the fact they can now heal their much stronger pets as well as we can.

I don't want our pets out tanking theirs, but our pets DPS should be higher, not at max focus 1/3 the DPS of their unfocused pet. We are not at all balanced with them pet wise, they rely on their pets defensively, we used to rely on them mostly offensively. Now they are a DoT we need to keep alive to use our abilities, without them we very weak monks.

Pet DPS should be raised, if pets are gonna stay weak might as well change disc and spells to not need them, since eventually they will be more of a liability then they are worth.

BTW the whole they rely on their pet more then us is a lie, they do not have anywhere near as many spells or abilities as we do that NEED pet or will not work period. Our snare relies on pet, our top slow (broken spell or not) needs our pet, our DPS disc needs them, Growl needs pet, we are designed with pet in mind, but they are becoming to weak to have us rely so much on them. Something needs to be done about pets, relegate them to the same status as little bear for druids and unlink our spells from them or make them worth protecting again.

1) Mages' spells take upwards of 6 months to cast.  They are an easily boxable class since you can hit a DD, put a load of laundry in the washing machine, cook dinner, mow the lawn, come back and boom your spell just hit the mob.  Ok a bit over the top, but you get the drift.

2) During a raid, tanks start to die and the mob gets loose.  Does the RL want it goin' for the mages or the beastlords?  We can take more punishment than mages.

3) Our pets aren't as integral to our class as the mage.  I bag my pet on trash during raids just so he doesn't run off when I switch to my clr to heal my group.  Ya, I might lose some DPS, but nothing like a mage will.  Most trash mobs are dead before a mage can get a spell off (see #1).

4) Our pets haven't become so weak from lack of upgrades that they are useless.  I don't think I have ever loaded the pet slow.  My pet can OT in most exp zones and with 2 healers can tank in Crystallos whereas I get my ass handed to me if I try to tank there.  Ya, a mage's pet does a better job, but if I wanted to play a mage I'd play my wife's toon.

5) Mage pets got the same marginal upgrade that bst pets did.

My point, if you want to play a mage, play a mage.  If you want to tank mobs, play a tank.  If you want the strongest dots, play a necro.  Strong DDs, play a wizzi.  If you want to play the most powerful class in the game, go to WoW or play Neverwinter Nights.  Quit complaining about every single item about the expansion.  We got some nifty stuff.  Enjoy it and play the game. 

Well, supposedly someone once called us a primary pet class.  Telling us to suck it up and go enjoy some of the fluff we got does exactly squat.

In my opinion - our new pet is total rubbish - if a fully focused/buffed warder is offensively 25% better than a non-focusable SK pet....well, we have no reason being included on Pet focus items on that basis.

I treat mine now, like necro's use to treat (no idea if they still do) theirs - if he dies, he dies, but Im not sacrificing time/mana maintaining that rubbish - a familiar satisfies the 'pet' requirement for Growl (not sure about BA - havent tried with my pet dead since familiars/pets stacked).

The main point is that the pet is not an acceptable 'upgrade' to even the semi useless SoF pet, but the Devs refuse to even comment about it. 

Thank you Gutter...I agree wholeheartedly. I said it before and I'll say it again "OMG all the whining."  If you're that unhappy with the Beastlord class then go play another toon, I am sure they will be perfect and have absolutely no issues whatsoever.

PS..Nice to see someone else thinks our warders are good for tanking, I use mine all the time as an OT when soloing. With the pet heal aa's and pet heal spells I have no problem keeping him alive.

Actually, alot of mage nukes have very short cast times in SoD.

It is funny, mages get the best beastlord heal, a shitload of dps increase in SoD and their pets are really ubor. Unfocused pets doing 1k dps whereas ours does 200 (including proc buffs) which is lower than an SK pet.

Actually had a mage complain that his level 81 pet was still yellow to him once he dinged 83, that tells you all.

Yes, beastlords should get pets that tank as well as mages and do the same unfocused dps (same pet stats). Mage still have a major advantage because their pets come fully equipped with plate and jewelry as well as the fact that they have spell induced stances that give their pets major boosts in the different areas. Beastlords are not a melee only class outside of pets, it actually adds only around a third of our dps while the rest comes from spells (pets and dd/dots). So that argument is kinda wrong that mages therefore need better dps and tanking pets. Actually their pets can tank better than the highest group geared knights as it is, so there is something wrong to begin with.

Compared to sof warder, in tanking trash, its not even any better, the dps is really low. Survivability is poop and he is so weak it's frustrating. Light blue trash tears him a new one. Usualy i have him oting a mob while im tanking another, butt hats realy hard to do when pet is getting beat up so bad i have to chain heal him and run my arse off. On light blues. It saddens me. The way thewarder is, it can't function as a partner for the bst, it dies way too fast.

And dont give me that bunny about mages. They aren't linked to their pets aswe are.

QuoteLight blue trash tears him a new one. Usualy i have him oting a mob while im tanking another, butt hats realy hard to do when pet is getting beat up so bad i have to chain heal him and run my arse off. On light blues. It saddens me. The way thewarder is, it can't function as a partner for the bst, it dies way too fast.

I use my warder to OT one sometimes two db mobs in Loping Plains and have no issues(worgs, orcs and gobbies mainly). I don't understand why yours would be having issues with lb mobs unless you are somewhere where they are way underconned, where are you tanking with him? I am normally just using growl, and the pet heal aa's with an occasional spell heal. I almost always forget to get him gear so he is either shammy or self buffed with temerity.

Keep this thread polite.

I'll have to agree with Orbus...   Anything I try to tank, my pet can tank it better.

Well...I was going to quote a whole lot of people but I'm not going to, I'm going to summerize  :mrgreen:

Statement: Are pet sucks for "x" and "Y" reasons
Response: It's been this way sense Beta and once the NDA was lifted nothing changed.  Whats worse is nothing happened between Beta ending and release so we are really screwed

Statement: We got the same heal as mages (or reverse it if you like)
Response: Welcome to copy and paste

Statement: Quit whining, play A mage if you feel envy
Response: , we are upset.  We are passionate about our class just like everyone else is passionate about there class.  The fact that parses did nothing to help improve are warder between Beta and release is upsetting to many in the community.

Statement: Keep is civil
Response: Umm....yeah, keep it civil  :-D.  We want are warder fixed and being "un-civil" doesn't attract the developers attention.  Although at this point I wonder what they need from us to improve it  :? , as parses alone aren't enouph  :-o .

Statement: .....
Response: Yup I'm fristrated also

I guess it's time to beg and plead for what they need from us so that we can see changes that are positive for us.  If we need to show combined DPS, group DPS, pet survivability statistics, what there vision is of our spell line up is, or what ever...I guess its time to pick there brains.  Do they expect us to run 3 pet heals during all phases of play?  Or always have certain buffs present no matter where we play at or how long.  Mabye some of these questions being answered plus any the Player Representitives can dig up and get answered will go along way in deciding how #@%&^! we really are.

Things we already know:
Slow is too powerful
Endless Quiver is too powerful
Dire Charm is too powerful
Fixed duration invisibility will never come to BST's.....Wait, we finally go that and its perfected!

I guess my point is that developers have a strange way of saying things are too powerful only cause it allows them to do less work.  The only way change will happen is if we stay on them and provide for them what they need and do there jobs (occasionally this also requires us to read their minds which delays the process for years).

QuoteStatement: Keep is civil
Response: Umm....yeah, keep it civil  grin.  We want are warder fixed and being "un-civil" doesn't attract the developers attention.  Although at this point I wonder what they need from us to improve it  huh , as parses alone aren't enouph  shocked .

Being rude to the developers is the first way to be ignored.

Quote from: Dilgartownguard on October 22, 2008, 10:18:35 PM
Our pet blows, hits for 3 more damage. The best part was when I summoned it, it's light blue at 83.

According to data from the devs, the new pet should be level 80 (unfocused).  It should not be LB at 83.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=141770

Seems even Mages agree our pets need to be retuned to do more DPS, when Tulisin is lobbying to get our pets DPS raised something is definitely out of whack with our pets.

I was refering to trash in oceangreen hills. There is 0 difference in his tanking ability. None. Nada. Zip. Whre as i see mag pet merrily tanking a light blue there like cake. I want equality or near it as to what they were capable of when sof came out. They SURVIVED. This pet cant in sod.

thumbs up!

hope that the balance will be set and our pet will be around 85 90 procent of the mage pet tanking ability and dps.

thanks for the change to this already
in advance.

big hug

Spirit of Wolf, Spirit of Jeswin Rk 2, Arag's Celerity or Peerless Penchant rk 2
Torch of Eternal Servitude
Savagesoul Sandals of the Wilds


Spirit of Silverwing
Unfocused:
Cons White to 75
Max hit - 152(Peerless)
Max hit - 141(Arag)

Enhanced Minion I
Cons White to 77
Max hit - 179(Peerless)
Max hit - 167(Arag)

Spirit of Hoshkar
Level 80, Level 81, Level 83 testers

Unfocused:
HP - 16,400~
Cons white to 80
Cons Dark blue to 83
Max hit - 195(Peerless Penchant rk 2)
Max hit - 182(Arag's Celerity)

Ritual Summoning:
Cons white to 80
Cons Dark blue to 83
Did not test

Servant of Chaos
Cons yellow to 80
Cons White to 81
Cons Dark blue to 83
Max hit - 208(Peerless)
Max hit - 194(Arag)

Enhanced Minion I

Cons yellow to 80
Cons yellow to 81
Cons Dark blue to 83
Max hit - 222(Peerless)
Max hit - 207(Arag)

More numbers...

Spirit of Silverwing / Peerless Penchant Rk 2 with Enhanced Minion IV - cons level 79

Max hit 189

Spirit of Hoshkar / Unrivaled Rapidity Rk 1 with Enhanced Minion IV - cons yellow to 83

Max hit 237

It looks like our pets(not sure how far back it goes), got shifted up in levels on unfocused....
I remember silverwing being 72, and +4 from servant of chaos making it 76(75s said it was yellow con, while 73s said the unfocused was blue).

Now silverwing is 75, and you have to go to a +40 power focus to get 1 level, the first 30 of pet power increase doesn't mean anything..... or both pets are summoned as if they had pet power(30).....  I'm not sure, its strange

Silverwing was 72 at one time, and Hoshkar should have been 78.   Now they are 75 and 80, and pet focuses are weaker?

Not sure how they're weaker, Hoshkar is level 84 with EM IV.

Still, DPS should be upgraded ~ 20% or so. Pre-SoD on raids my warder was doing ~ 450-600 DPS depending on group makeup, mage pets were parsing 800-1k.

Silverwing old:
72
Servant of Chaos(40 power) = 76
Enhanced Minion I(55 power) = 77

Silverwing new:
75
Servant of Chaos(40 power) = 76
Enhanced Minion I(55 power) = 77

I will see if ritual summoning(which did not focus the level of the pet) focuses the max hit.

Quote from: rhaug on October 24, 2008, 06:55:42 PM
thumbs up!

hope that the balance will be set and our pet will be around 85 90 procent of the mage pet tanking ability and dps.

thanks for the change to this already
in advance.

big hug

Sure as soon as you are ready to loose slow, cripple, and the ability to heal yourself.

we can get a better pet without loosing slow, cripple and heal thats not needed at all

its really not out of balance if our pet can tank better and dps better
its simply what we need to bring balance in the petorder of the different classes  in current sod expansion

its normal to ask for something what is natural.
if they make our pet very weak and out of tune then its natural to ask for a pet that is in tune with the mage pet line
its not whining its simply something that we deserve as one of the 3 main pet classes

I think what went wrong with beastlord pets compared with mage pets is that at some point, somebody decided beastlords aren't a pet class anymore and forgot to tell us about it.  I think the original concept was for us to mainly play pet cleric, so up to 60 our pet is comparable to mage pets plus we got massive heals... but our melee DPS kinda sucked.  Then things flipped around and over time we've gained better AC, better weapons, double/triple attack, etc. and so our pets have flat lined to compensate.  That's great if you are the type who likes to get in there and tank for fluffy, or more specifically, if you have the gear to be able to tank for fluffy.  But if you're super casual or for some other reason you really rely on your pet's power to get through, then that theme shift really kicks you in the crotch.

Quote from: Brane on October 25, 2008, 05:20:27 AM

Quote from: rhaug on October 24, 2008, 06:55:42 PM
thumbs up!

hope that the balance will be set and our pet will be around 85 90 procent of the mage pet tanking ability and dps.

thanks for the change to this already
in advance.

big hug

Sure as soon as you are ready to loose slow, cripple, and the ability to heal yourself.

I hate to be a little smart here, but...

Slow - Seeing lots of "slightly" slowed in the new expansion... mitigation is killing slow..  Devs admit they don't want slow around anymore and are phasing it out.
Cripple - We haven't had an upgrade in how many expansions.... does that count as losing it?
Ability to heal ourselves - Not alot better than a hot potion can do, but yes we can heal ourselves more often.

Our pet dps looks like it didn't increase much because the accuracy of the pet dropped.  Level went up, max hit went up by a decent amount.... no where near mage SoF increase but it shouldn't be.  But he seems to miss/hit non-maximum alot more than he used to.

This being said, Focused paragon, our block skill for tanking, melee dps, and possibly our heals and slows are what I think blocks us from having a better pet.

Mages have outstanding dps potential on the short burn and good dps via the pet on long term,  and higher level stun mitigation(more important in groups now that slow is dying..)

I still think our pet could use a "slight" upgrade, on the order of what we received in SoD, upgrading it that much in dps again.   It doesn't seem to tank any better than the old pet as wlel, but that will require more testing I guess? and the pet chart sheets showed that the ac was equal to the mage air pet... which is hard to believe but I will.

But your major problem is the beastlord itself.
While a raid geared beastlord has raid weapons, and raid gear to maximize their personal character dps.... a group geared beastlord does not.  There is quite a big gap between a raid geared beastlord and a group geared beastlord.
The gap... to me....  doesn't seem as big between group and raid mages.   A raid beastlord will do ok/even beat a raid mage on dps I'm guessing(no idea since things change so fast in the end game and I'm not playing on the bleeding edge).  However a group beastlord will get dominated by a group mage.

Just my opinion.  Probably wrong,  in that case I'm sorry in advance.

confirmed Ritual Summoning does not focus Hoshkor at all

http://www.antonius-bayle.org/kumbaja/spells/spell_view.php?id=4410

The spell data says it should focus Hoshkar, not much considering the focus level but some.

no max hit increase
no level increase
haven't tested a HP increase.

Guess they got lazy and didn't make a template for RS then. Not a first i guess :P

Pet foci now scale, so each expansion, the lower end ones will drop into uselessness.  This time it's at least RS, next time I'd expect anything below spire Servant at minimum.

Yea I completely forget they started doing that now. So yea guess RS won't work, wish they would change the max level though since it won't affect 81-85 pets anyway.

Starting to have enough of this new warder. Bug reported on it already. Today in mechamatic guardian it couldn't off tank many seconds those top floor mobs. Lost quite many of warders there as promised heal was not nearly enough there to keep that excuse of warder alive. New warder is so horrible, that it is not even funny anymore. This all made me pretty curious how 78lvl pet would be duel against 83lvl one. With EM1 focused + peerles penchant rk2 hasted 78lvl pet actually won 83 lvl pet 2 times and 83lvl pet won once. We backed off when warder enraged and the one who did it 1st lost. I had all SoF pet AAs capped and my opponent missed only few AAs being maxed out. Very nice upgrade imo! Going to use silverwing one from now on.

-Raz

Edit. Added the pet duel part.

My 83 pet cant off tank anything and im max aas (completely litterally) except for sod ones. This pet is pathetic and HORRIBLE. Why cantwe have an earthen stance and earth pet quality related warder if mages are going to get our promised line. We are SUPPOSED to be able to heal our pets and tend them as beastlords. Mages use summoned entities that they can discard etc per lore.

Fix our pet plz. It's way worse than an embarasment.

Something is not right, for a long time I kept reading Mages saying that we can heal much better then them so they needed a stronger pet, yet now their main heal spells efficiency are almost the same as ours plus they are gonna be getting our Promised line (Seems Prathun intends to put MAG on our SoF Promised spell too), yet they still have a much stronger pet, offensively and defensively.

Either they gotta lose those heals and put US back as the Healer pet class or our pets need to be boosted in both offensive and defensive.

My pet dies so fast, off tanking trash in library that i cant even heal him efficiently even WITH my merc cleric, thats how bad he is. He just gets wtf owned, raped, dead. *I* tank better then my pet and i have no sod defensives at all yet.

Plx help our pets and fix out heal line to actualy be able to at least make an ATTEMPT at keeping thewatder up.

I don't know what is wrong with lvl83 pet but even 78lvl one tanks better. Test it out.

-Raz

the sod pet is a joke plain and simple .

Guess i go back to using sof pet till its fixed, only good thing about the lv 83 one is itssoWEAK i can litteraly pet kite.

Insta-cast on the run dots.
Weaker tanking pet

We are SK!

we need to take this to the soe boards and NOT let it die.

Once they see it is about one class it will get moved, and don't think anyone reads Class boards on EQ Forum. And OMG the flames once they see what is being said :P Since from what I can tell, lots of people consider us overpowered to the point of destroying the game.

I posted on Vet. Boards (thread: Stealth Nerf) mainly about the nerf to Promised line, and so far it hasn't been moved and its getting support from other classes.  Seems like the spell Dev has managed to piss off almost every class.

Post linky plz :)

Here:  http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=142379

Quick 10min parse.  Will try to a longer one later.
These are defensive parses(the mob's damage on the pet)


Hoshkar
206,641 damage taken over 10:21
332.76dps taken
1964 max hit
597 Avg hit
344 minimum hit
346 hits

Silverwing
154,747 damage taken over 10:21
249.19dps taken
1924 max hit
590 Avg hit
304 minimum hit
262 hits

Same Monster used both times.
No buffs used
EM1 focus

So..

1% mitigation loss
40 point less minimum hit(shielding?)
32% increase in getting hit by the mob.

Now for the DPS parses
Arag's Celerity was the only buff used
Enhanced Minion 1
The enemy was a very low con, but was the only thing i could find with sufficient HP.

Hoshkar
186,238 damage over 10:32
294.68 dps
294.68 claw dps
0 Bash dps
207 max hit(non crit)
Accuracy 67.14%
954 hits
333 misses
195 Average Hit


Silverwing
166,521 damage over 10:32
263.48 dps
256.39 claw dps
7.10 bash dps
167 max hit (non crit)
Accuracy 70.60%
1024 claw hits
320 claw misses
Average claw 158.55

***

Final Conclusion
11% more dps(may be higher on higher con mobs, as con affect chance to hit alot, and +5 will help Hoshkar)
30% loss in tanking ability
+3000 HP
+5 Levels

Do I risk putting Hoshkar out for 11% more dps when it is no where near as effective as Silverwing tanking?
Is Hoshkar truely a warrior?  It doesn't bash, but it does enrage.  It doesn't tank like one...

Even enraged my lv 83 pet gets one rounded.

Last expansion, me and pet tanked eqully, at least we did till i maxed out defensives, then i pulled away improving some. Usualy, i do my pet defensives etc aas first, as i can attend MY PET better then i can attend myself via heals. This worked fantastic for sof in fortress trash. If i got two mobs (keep in mind no merc then) pet was able to off tank the add, while we both beat up the first.

My complain about the new sod pet is that this scaling ability isnt happening with SOD warder. It's way by far weaker then it should be in defence and offence. My heals are no longer efficient to allow pet to offtank a trash iksar in field of scale. I have no ability to even pet cleric my warder, even WITH a merc. Thats the big problem. A merc keeps me up just fantasticaly on a single mob. Put the warder in same place, and he fails as a tank miserably.

Granted some mobs SHOULD 1 round me and my pet, but trash in field of scale really shoudn't...unless i accidently hit a dragon ...btw Talendar hits for 14.5 k:P

EDIT: I havent paid attention if my warder bashes or not. I'll keep a better eye out after patch.

EDIT 2: Forgotto mention for the part regarding pet tanking in FM that i was just getting into sol gear with sof cultural, had over 2k aas and had all defensives maxed on both me and warder up to sof ones. Think at the time I had 26k hp with the both of us buffed. And 2 somes were ALWAYS a challenge, but it was an acceptable challenge, not a 'scrape me up' plz challange.

Forwarded to Rytan - thanks Vidyne.  I also couldn't resist throwing in some more comments on our pets to hopefully influence their thinking for next expansion.

Hoshkar EM1
195,938 damage in 10:01
326.02 dps taken
1964 max hit
612 avg hit
344 minimum hit
Accuracy 59.93%
Evasion 23.36%
Defense 9.36%
320 hits
164 Misses
18 blocks
9 Dodges
14 Parries
9 Ripostes


Silverwing EM1
148,227 damage in 10:02
246.22 dps in 10:02
1924 max hit
572.31 average hit
304 minimum hit
47.70% accuracy
33.80% evasion
17.68% defense
259 hits
188 misses
48 blocks
20 dodges
28 ripostes

Hoshkar Unfocused
197.316 damage in 10:01
328.31 dps in 10:01
2054 max hit
642.72 avg hit
344 minimum hit
59.04% accuracy
23.94% evasion
9.81% defense
307 hits
162 misses
21 blocks
10 dodges
10 parries
10 ripostes

Silverwing Unfocused
182,544 damage in 10:02
303.23 dps in 10:02
2054 max hit
654 avg hit
344 minimum hit
51.01% accuracy
43.28% evasion
21.21% defense
279 hits
152 misses
49 blocks
33 dodges
34 ripostes

***
Granted I know the percentages don't add up,but yalp is an old parser I guess.  The misses/blocks/hits/dodges/ripostes are there tho, if someone wants to re-run the numbers.

Did an exp aa run in rss, and the warder was just getting raped by these things, he coudnt even off tank one of THOSE wimpy light blue gelidran or a fem flappy hes so pitifuly bad. (

Unless I'm going to be fighting red/yellow cons to 85,  I'm summoning silverwing for now.
There is no benefit in summoning Hoshkar,   I contemplated deleting it, but just moved it to the back of the spell book.
Hoshkar should be better on red/yellow cons, because those are so much higher level than silverwing that they should get enough of a con-bonus to defense/offense that it would beat out the natural superiority of silverwing over hoshkar.

Silverwing is a level 75 warrior in Solteris raid gear.
Hoshkar is a level 80 rogue in Crystallos group gear.

78 pet seems like a lower level mage's air pet
83 pet seems like an equivalent mage's water pet

That's my best way to put the difference between them.

A rogue in crystallos gear tanks better :P

At least a PC rogue. I duno WTF our warder is classed as for 83 lv, but it certainly isn't any warrior. It can't even bash!

Havent seen it backstab, kick or anything else


When's the next patch and how long do we have to wait for any kind of remedy?  :?

I've been playing with Silverwing only... Hoshkar sucks to bad, not worth my time.

I doubt a rogue in crystallos group gear(with low ac), tanks better than a warrior in solteris raid gear(higher ac)

dont know much about it

anyway i am sure

we need some scientific proves, parses etc eveything that can be seen as pure proof.


then someone can bundle it together

and we all sign it to show that as beastlords we care about the performance of our pets
and we dont accept the current state of the new pet.

some action is needed, with full feedback of all beastlords
let them show that we care and we dont accept downgrades! to our warder

what we want is a strong pet that adds dps and that can tank allright.

enjoy

we need a person with the right contacts or knowhow or friends that can take the action to take our proof to the people that actually can upgrade our warder.

let them show that we care for our beastlord and pet

I don't know wtf soe was thinking this time around...  Most of the spells are crap, and the 83 pet is so broken its unreal.  And it will prob take all year to get them to fix it.  This is getting stupid..  Why do they even bother beta testing if they will not accept any beta feedback there given??

Windodar

I want to know how beta testers MISSED the warder not bashing or dual wielding... /boggle

It doesnt kick or anything either.

EDIT: I tried lower lv pet in low lv SOD zone, it missed mob like 90% and was zip dps, had tog et rid of it sigh.

Quote from: Panthur on November 08, 2008, 11:29:35 PM
I want to know how beta testers MISSED the warder not bashing or dual wielding... /boggle

It doesnt kick or anything either.

EDIT: I tried lower lv pet in low lv SOD zone, it missed mob like 90% and was zip dps, had tog et rid of it sigh.

it does duel weld, it just plain sucks.  had a wind nymph take it down to enrage before promised went off lol

The pet was parsed and complained about for a majority of the Beta process the problem wasn't the testers  not posting / /bugging the pet it was plain simply the lack of response.  From the Spell Dev who I believe didn't look at the boards once during the entire beta process hence the current situation with our pets and spells / discs for all the classes.

There was a lot of parsing done in beta on the level 83 warder. A thread devoted to it.. and I am sure others submited bug reports just as I did. Beta testers can only provide their findings however, we can not make the devs act on them.

It comes down to the simple fact that we were ignored. That is the long and short of it.

I bet if mage pet was bugged it woudl have been fixed in beta instantly

I'm getting 65% accuracy on dark blues to 85 in Field of Scale with Silverwing.
I still have to test silverwing's accuracy on some reds/yellows.
Still doubt I'll be bringing out hoshkar.

The lv 78 pet has like a 10% accuracy on white+ and is totaly useless.

Seems very low, but I'll have to test it out.

Accuracy shouldn't go that far into the hole until yellows I'd think.

EM1 pet is 77 con, should start seeing huge accuracy drops at 87 cons.

Lv 85 mobs, the lower lv pet cant hit at all. The only thing the sod pet has going for it is the level it is to hit something my level and up.

Frankly, I'm wondering... if it had been the beastlord vision to start with, that we be the "pet cleric" class, but we're supposed to pull ahead in melee DPS... and that's supposed to be from raid gear melee foci and raid weapons.  Why didn't they make us -everyone's- pet clerics?

Some of the elite mages seem to really have it in for us.

Would they hate us so much if our role was, when we had originally gotten the better pet heals, to be able to heal -any- pet?  Sure we don't have the vast cleric mana pool, or the yaulp standing/combat mana regen, and we're mostly going to want to be meleeing mobs, but frankly, wouldn't it have offered us a new and better group dynamic, and maybe a variable raid dynamic, to be able to heal other pets, instead of getting our heals farmed out?  And shouldn't it have been that way to begin with?

I mean, pet heals to begin with meant that we couldn't/shouldn't be grouping, back in Luclin, if we wanted to use our mana most efficiently, it would go to popping a complete heal on the pet(pet level buff) and after that was 'fixed' our pet heals.  Pet heals means a pet has to be tanking, and therefore most traditional groups don't work, and even some non traditional groups, no tank or melee class worth their salt, is going to want to sit around and watch, or work on throwing/archery, while some pet does all the work.

I think we were meant to bring about pet groups as a viable option, even though they had been semi viable forever, but regardless.

The thing I'm afraid people aren't taking into account with the Hoshkar/silverwing thing.

We're comparing one of the top 5 focuses for silverwing, to one of the bottom five focuses for hoshkar, on enhanced minion one.

Since they only right pet tables for so many focus effects, this was probably intended.  You upgrade your pet, you want it to be as powerful over the last one, you need to get the same tier pet focus upgrade.

So we probably need the Enhanced minion 4 effect, to see Hoshkar increase in tanking 1-5%, or maybe even just stay the same as Silverwing.


What I was getting at earlier with some of the mages being really elitist, there were quotes being bandied around that a mage said our pets should be weaker than any and all of their pets minimum stats.  -what- -the- -flub- ?

Frankly, yes, a raid geared Beastlord is doing fine in their place on the scale of things during raids, and probably doesn't want to stagnate in melee DPS for a pet boost that would only help them out most of the time.

A group geared beastlord though would love it if the raid tiering slowed down and stagnated, and gave us some catchup through our spells and pets.

A mage stands to increase maybe twice their maximum focus from grouping to raiding?  up to an average increase of 40% DPS on their most common DPS spells, but regardless, have an 800 unbuffed DPS monster at their disposal in the fire pet.

Does anyone have a class envisioning post by the Devs?  I would frankly like to know what they see us as, and/or if they have any vision at all for our pets.

QuoteDoes anyone have a class envisioning post by the Devs?  I would frankly like to know what they see us as, and/or if they have any vision at all for our pets.

heh.. getting this question answered is something we've tried for years and years and never have gotten a solid answer.  Many other classes have much the same problem.  I think the devs don't want to paint themselves or their successors into a corner by making a statement like this.  I dunno tho.. that's pure supposition.

As far as im concerned, our pets should be eaqual to their earth pet in tanking (but ya ill never see it happen) and the mage vs bst themselves (sans pet) should be the comparason that is arguable. Each are diferent style, roles, etc. They nuke the **** outta stuff, we melee with our pet.

Why is their swarm pet hitting 1100 per hit while ours barely does 500 per hit? Granted, i love it when i quad proc, but how often do we do that?

Our warder is so bugged atm, my lv 76 mag air pet beats the **** out of my 83 warder :( its so embarasing. I'm suposed to be a bst lord, with 50% of my dps aas attuned to my warder, who dies in a flash.

He needs some TLC big time.

EDIT: oh ya max rank 2nd spire thats a 2260 dd proc on warder. But since warder is so weak, the proc barely fires. That or there's some bug with epic proc and spirit of whatever conflicting. Or just SOMETHING not right for it to fire twice in the duration when decsription implies it to not be that rare. I mean cmon, at 5 aa per rank it better be procing more then twice, lol.

EDIT2: Forgot to mention I noticed both bst promised heals are back to beast only, as I was shopping for it for my mage who had just dinged 78. Not sure if the spell's mana or heal amount was put back etc. or anything. Didn't have time to look it up.

Quote from: Panthur on November 13, 2008, 04:15:47 AM
EDIT: oh ya max rank 2nd spire thats a 2260 dd proc on warder. But since warder is so weak, the proc barely fires. That or there's some bug with epic proc and spirit of whatever conflicting. Or just SOMETHING not right for it to fire twice in the duration when decsription implies it to not be that rare. I mean cmon, at 5 aa per rank it better be procing more then twice, lol.

Try it w/o any other proc buffs on the pet.  I'm guessing that's the issue.  Not an acceptable fix, but it'll give you an ideal of what is possible.

already reported during beta and no change was made at all as it is a copy paste of mage pet and they don t have any issue due to the different way for them to proc

We are NOT mages we have different pets, and issues issues then they do. Our play styiles are completely different.

Though i woudnt mind borrowing their earth pet and earthen stance :P

Spire proc has standard proc rate. So it fires on average 2 times per minute. Since the buff holds for 1.5 minutes it should fire on average 3 times during the duration. However it is the third proc checked so it will fire a bit less which probably means we gonna see between 2 and 3 procs depending on luck. All in all it is pretty much useless, but since we share it with mages for some reason we won't see any upgrade as their pets are too powerfull to add more dps to them with that spire.

Spires in general are pretty bad for us, but hey, we got Group Shrink, Natural Invis, Levi and a 42dps swarm!

rolls eyes

so for our next pet, we will have a 85 con pet with 19,600hp, 234 max hit, 42% accuracy

Quote from: Vidyne on November 14, 2008, 06:24:03 AM
so for our next pet, we will have a 85 con pet with 19,600hp, 234 max hit, 42% accuracy

Nope, that will be in Beta.  Once it goes live it will have 1,960 hp's, 23 max hit, and 4% accuracy and be level 85.  3 Patches later they will admit to the mistake and some erronouse code got in reducing Pet Stats on Beastlord's followed by months of "fixing" on test.  Once the "patch" is pushed live a developer will have forgotten to provide the source code to the appropriate people and they will add an "apology" at the end of that patch.  Seeings that they don't consider this a "hot" priority they wait for the release of the next expansion (2010) where they finally fix the problem but copy/paste from the 1960 HP's version of our Warder and increase his stats 10%.

/prophetic vision off

When is the next patch? This is getting old. I can't tank two mobs in my usual play stile (

So I've just read this whole thread and I am having trouble understanding what the issues are exactly.  I honestly never tested or analyzed my pet's DPS or actual stats on him.

With our previous pet, Silverwing and me at 80 using EM1, I never had any issues with him tanking reds in Fort Mech (Steamwork Guardian model 1) while I used Promised, clickies, AA's such as fortify and comp blessing etc.

When I got the new pet, Hoskar, and I am at 85 now and still using EM1, I use him to tank whites and yellows using the same tactics as before.  He is no worse than before.  What am I missing?  He can still outank me or gives the impression he can since I can stay safely aside and heal/click/aa/promise and add DPS with swarms, nukes and dots. It's certainly NOT efficient but I use this method only I deal with named or tasks that involve killing one eventual mob.

As I said before, I never really check to see what his accuracy is, whether he is kicking or bashing... I just don't bother.  I have noted his max hit is now higher.  Thus my question is.. what exactly did they do to our warder... or what exactly did they NOT do?

I honestly don't notice much difference over the previous one, but than again I am now killing mobs which are accordingly higher levels... due to me being 85.

Don't get me wrong... I was in Bloodfilelds yesterday and while everyone was AFK (of course) a Kyv just wondered over to us.  Was yellow to me at 85.  Even though my pet was fully raid buffed, had full pet weapons, mask and belt and had full Elaborate defiant Plate for everything else... he went down faster that a bag of stones thrown in the river.  However I never expected him ever to tank that mob.  Would love if he could but would never expect it.

The issue is:

the 83 pet has lower accuracy on the same mob as the 78 pet. 
the 83 pet has lower evasion/defensive skills on the same mob as the 78 pet
the 83 pet takes higher minimum damage and average damage on the same mob as the 78 pet

The 83 pet's only saving grace is that it is 5 levels higher than the 78 pet, and therefore gains some strength from /con differences.  It is an inferiorly geared pet with a better weapon, and more HP.  It's defensive skills are subpar by at least half to the 78 pet,  its avoidance and mitigation are weaker.  Its accuracy is lower but he still does more dps by the big max hit increase he got.

*note*
When the mob is of sufficient level higher than silverwing, then hoshkar can outperform silverwing, but only then.

That and god knows what class it is, but i DO remember this happening once before in another expansion. Just escapes me when. I believe our warder was accidently changed to either beastlord or berserker class npc.

Thank you for clearing that up.  I will actually pay attention to my pet's damage spam for a change. 

Quote from: Panthur on November 15, 2008, 02:35:18 AM
That and god knows what class it is, but i DO remember this happening once before in another expansion. Just escapes me when. I believe our warder was accidently changed to either beastlord or berserker class npc.

Think that was a while ago, pets were considered monks and giving them anything but h2h weaps would lower their damage dramatically.

Ahh ya, cus i remember them being able to kick but not bash.

Does anyone know if they are actually gonna fix this soon? Starting to get old...

Dunno, keep posting asking for updates .. don't let the thread go cold....

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=45&topic_id=142379

Quit my BST to play a mage. BST was fun for awhile, but the game has gone in another direction.

Quote from: Bibble on February 23, 2009, 03:27:52 AM
Quit my BST to play a mage. BST was fun for awhile, but the game has gone in another direction.

Loser.

no need for name calling -- kids will be kids -- LoL

Side

Quote from: bobokatt1970 on November 15, 2008, 12:02:37 AM
  Even though my pet was fully raid buffed, had full pet weapons, mask and belt and had full Elaborate defiant Plate for everything else

You are aware that the attunable items vanish as soon as you have bagged it once yes?

visable slots dont vanish.

Hum dont get what you mean bud.  I just bought a full set of elaborate defiant gear (which is so plenty and overflowing in the bazaar that made it beyond cheap).  I never wore the items.. just directly placed on pet, as i would anything else such as summoned gear.  If the warder is not equipping them it's news to me and would need to look into this.

In regards to Bibble's post... I am sorry you are done with BSTS and moved on to a Mage, but it's your dollar and time to play and do what you have to do to enjoy the game. However an end game BST is a powerhouse, "weak" pet or no weak pet.  I would not trade mine in for any other class and I would assume any other class that has put so much effort and work and time into whichever class they play, would say the same (about their own class).

Quote from: Dilgartownguard on February 23, 2009, 01:23:10 PM
visable slots dont vanish.

Attunable items become flagged NOTRADE as soon as you suspend the pet. Pets do not use NOTRADE items.

So "vanish" might be the wrong word, but they loose all effect, and still block the slot.

Attunable armor/weapons and pet use was already tested by the mages, you can check it here (http://eq1.eqsummoners.com/viewtopic.php?t=38114&highlight=attunable+armor+armour)

-1 for me for not keeping up and reading about this.  Thank you for this... my bad entirely and explains a lot now. On a good note I wont spend so much time buying this crap now.  I suppose it then reinforces and justifies the mage summoned gear for all to use.

I feel rather dumb :)

actually bst is quite a tough class to play
without decent raid gear or tier 5 groupgear
the dps is average then even when using all tricks you got.

i can imagine that mages
can get much more done with lesser aa and there pet is uber and a decent mana pool and focus items do the job further

calling people loser
just shows that you as highendraider dont know much whats going on with casual beastlords
compared to other classes

time they give us some strong pet
we dont sacrafice our double attack ets for some weak pet dps

Quote from: rhaug on February 23, 2009, 08:54:22 PM
calling people loser
just shows that you as highendraider dont know much whats going on with casual beastlords
compared to other classes

I play a bard in full groupable gear. Groupgeared bards just got nerfed by the instrument mod changes. I know what sucks and what doesn't.

I've tried to have this argument several times, and it never comes out well, so I just stopped bothering. But if you play a Beastlord to level 70, get it over 100 AA's, and then decide that you need to reroll because your pet sucks, you're not playing the game. You're envious. If Beastlords suddenly became the best DPS in the game, that guy and everyone else that didn't play the class would instantly change, just because they want to have "the best".

It's silly.

Can we lock this thread and let it die?

why would you want thrrad locked -- I learned about defient gear!! thanks for the info -)

Side

I'm almost tired of it enough to lock it.

I second this motion.

Thirded  :-D

IBTL!

The thread in general has been informative and useful.

The real pet suckig issue still stands, and its not DPS, it is tankability/survivability i.e. can it take a proper spanking.

That issue is still with us, and I would like to see that corrected a little more. As I've said before, if BSTs parse in the top 4 on raids, they must be within the vision, so only the group side is affected to any degree and mainly that seems to be pet offtanking, a viable ability we used to have.

Having the pet with a few k more hp but no mor addition to skills/DPS may give it that extra survivability /shrug.

I don`t see how a few k more hps will help that's like what one more hit from some mobs ?. I think our pet needs a little more mitigation or more avoidance that's just my 2 cents. The pet is lacking in dps also yes yes i know we have had a good dps boost but if things keep going the way they are our pet will be useless in a expansion or two

Posted it alot everywhere /shrugs.

Beast pet gets hit 54% of the time(49% with prism skin)
All other pets get hit 46-48% of the time except mage who get hit 37% of the time(prism skin).
Mag/Nec/Bst pet ac(mitigation) is identical or within 1%

So we continue to complain on SoE boards but we're all agreed pet should tank much beter and be on the same level of mitigation as mage pet ?
If we arent asking for DPS, what effect does upping mitigation that much have ? would it overpower us?

Afterall,if we're agreed we don't want DPS and we just want a reasonable level of mitigation boost and maybe a few k hp to stop the pet getting 1 rounded  it may present a more viable request.

Quote from: Karve on February 27, 2009, 10:11:50 AM
So we continue to complain on SoE boards but we're all agreed pet should tank much beter and be on the same level of mitigation as mage pet ?

The pet already outmitigates fire and water pets, is very close to being equal to air, and loses to earth pet.
Yet despite this, it takes more incoming dps than all 4 of those pets because of its lack of avoidance via prism skin and block/parry.

Quote from: Vidyne on February 27, 2009, 12:12:30 PM
... because of its lack of avoidance via prism skin...

Well excuse me we do have Prism Skin, maybe you dont use it?

Mage PS:

QuoteIceflame Assault Rk. II

Description:

    1: Decrease Hitpoints by 294

Recourse Effect: Prism Skin

      2: Block Melee or Spells(2)

Compare that to our PS:

QuoteSpirit of Vaxztn Strike Rk. II
Classes:

    * None

Description:

    1: Decrease Hitpoints by 488
    2: Increase Hate by 50
    3: Stun(1.50 sec/85)

Recourse Effect: Prism Skin

      2: Block Melee or Spells(1)

and look at the numbers... the mage version blocks twice as many hits  as bst version and therefore it gets an advantage in prism skin, so mages prism > bst prism skin.

Upping the pets defensive abilities will not overpower us and should be seen as a reasonable request by the devs.

-Up block from 8% to other pets have 12%

-Add 5% parry skill.

-Up stun length, would like to be same duration as air pet but at least 2 seconds.

-2 hit prism skin recourse.

Quote from: jitathab on February 27, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
and look at the numbers... the mage version blocks twice as many hits  as bst version and therefore it gets an advantage in prism skin, so mages prism > bst prism skin.

Oh yes it blocks 2!! hits of instead of 1. The horror! Of course our pet has a dex buff, so it will proc slightly more often, but lets disregard that. Of course our buff has an added stun, but lets disregard that too! Refering to the normally listed earth pet here, that has no initiate stun.

QuoteOh yes it blocks 2!! hits of instead of 1. The horror! Of course our pet has a dex buff, so it will proc slightly more often, but lets disregard that. Of course our buff has an added stun, but lets disregard that too! Refering to the normally listed earth pet here, that has no initiate stun.

Normally I try not to be insulting but where did you learn to do math?

-From 1 hit rune to 2 hit rune is a 100% increase. Not a big deal with a 100hp hit but huge when we are talking 4khits.

-Stun going from 1.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds, see above.

-When is the last time you've seen a mage use their earth pet? Air pet makes a superior tank due to it's better dps, agro generation and stun mitigation. Earth pet is only used in special situations and by those who havent figured it out.

Edit:  fixed formatting
--Khauruk

Quote from: Brane on February 27, 2009, 06:11:27 PM

Quote from: jitathab on February 27, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
and look at the numbers... the mage version blocks twice as many hits  as bst version and therefore it gets an advantage in prism skin, so mages prism > bst prism skin.

Oh yes it blocks 2!! hits of instead of 1. The horror! Of course our pet has a dex buff, so it will proc slightly more often, but lets disregard that. Of course our buff has an added stun, but lets disregard that too! Refering to the normally listed earth pet here, that has no initiate stun.

1 hit v. 2 is huge.  The extra prism block and parry skill leads to Vidyne's numbers above:

"Posted it alot everywhere /shrugs.

Beast pet gets hit 54% of the time(49% with prism skin)
All other pets get hit 46-48% of the time except mage who get hit 37% of the time(prism skin).
Mag/Nec/Bst pet ac(mitigation) is identical or within 1%"

I've found this thread to be very informative period.  What I would like to know is from some of the top level, end game bsts on this forum.. when you have all your aa's done, the best focus for pet, all the clickies you've collected over the years, all the insane gear and rank 3 spells, all veteran, etc., are you also complaining about your pet?

I was grouping on an alt the other day and was in a group with two bsts, one was 81 and the other 84, both not raid geared.. had maybe 60-100 aa each, and it was (and I am sad to say) pathetic to see their DPS and how fast they and their pets would die on a bad pull.  Granted, they probably did not have a the skill of a long playing, top end bst, but my God it was sad.  The group with a merc  and 2 others was taking ages to kill regular mobs in Tosk that I could go for a bio, refill my coffee, check my email and we would still be on the same mob.  I am certainly not making fun of this... at one point I must have been there too.

Skill as a bst, good, smartly placed gear over the years and loads of AA is such a game changer. I know I am stating the obvious, just interesting if at the top end, bsts even bother noticing or caring if their SoD pet can't offtank this or that, or is half that of a mage pet, when they got everything rounded off properly.

With all aa's and best focus the pet is still pathetic. The difference is that top end raid geared bst can take the abuse that low end group geared bst can't. That's always been true but with beefing up mobs got in SoF it exagerated the issue. AC/hps/secondary mods became even more important with the changes and all group gear really has on it is hps.

As for DPS, yeah you will see a huge difference between the bst you were grouped with and raid geared. They need a lot of aa's to crank out DPS. There are finally good group gear weapons out there but with those stats they'll need help getting them.

Quote from: bobokatt1970 on February 28, 2009, 12:16:14 PM
I was grouping on an alt the other day and was in a group with two bsts, one was 81 and the other 84, both not raid geared.. had maybe 60-100 aa each, and it was (and I am sad to say) pathetic to see their DPS and how fast they and their pets would die on a bad pull. 

The bolded parts are the problems, a Bst at those levels with such low AAs are HORRIBLE at everything, they will get beat down by LB mobs even since no defensives, so soloing will be hard, their DPS will be low so in groups fights take forever. Am guessing that even with Raid gear those Bsts would still be bad DPS and still die almost as quickly cause of the low AA count. Level is not always greater then AAs.

Rake/Foray line and feral swipe put out close to 300dps by themselves at rk 2/maxed swipe/maxed crit.
They've really put alot of our dps in abilities/special spells.  If I were to not use yowl or FS/Foray, my dps would probably drop by 30% - 50%.