The Beastlords' Den

Ok, I just recieved info through my dev contact that Rytan is aware of the issues with power of Hoshkar vs Silverwing. This is what I was told.. please take this with a grain of salt because I do not know 100% if this could be good or bad.

This is what I was told:
'... apparently the beastlord bug where the SoF warder is better than the SoD warder has already been fixed in data, it was an inverted table problem. Now, if you read that carefully, all I said is the problem where the SoF warder is better than the SoD warder should be fixed...'

NOW, I do not know when this is going live and/or if this means that the SoF warder was too strong and being tuned down OR the SoD warder was too weak and being tuned up.

This also only applies to the Silverwing vs Hoshkar issue.. no other tuning.

But the SoF warder is not better overall than the SoD warder, it only tanks better, the dps get progresivley worse. So if they simply swap them over we will not have progressed at all.

I think the "inversion" is more than going to be swapping over two lines in the database, it has to be.

Also are any bsts getting anywhere near the 1400 dps burst i am seeing mages get with their main pet at lvl 85 and EM1 and no spires or 7th? What are you hitting? Im seeing mages regularly hitting 1000 dps over bsts in burst fights. Are there errors elsewhere in pet tables is my point here.

Quote from: jitathab on November 20, 2008, 01:45:04 PM
Also are any bsts getting anywhere near the 1400 dps burst i am seeing mages get with their main pet at lvl 85 and EM1 and no spires or 7th? What are you hitting? Im seeing mages regularly hitting 1000 dps over bsts in burst fights. Are there errors elsewhere in pet tables is my point here.

I think, you ment that mage's pet does 1400dps? Add mages own dps on that and they are doing pretty insane dps atm.

-Raz

I've seen mages in our guild (raiding the beginning of Solt and tier 1-2 SoF) parsing well over 3k dps.  I think a lot of it has to do with spell weaving.  The cast times for nukes was reduced and the recast increased on most of them.  Net effect is that they can dump mana into dps very quickly by weaving spells as long as they can control their aggro, Silent Casting is perfect for burst fights.  I think most do a combo of Bolt and Shock of Many or Annihilate depending on the target along with clicky nuke and rage pet whenever GoM pops.  I'm not much of a min/maxer since my mage is a boxed alt that I don't always get to bring him on raids, but even boxed with just half my attention on him, he puts up decent numbers.  A couple weeks ago my beast and mage were #2 and #5 on the guild parse on Wulfnor, that was pretty sweet seeing both my toons in the top five.

Best I've seen my pet do is 730 dps on burst, used disc and had bard over haste with EM3. On that same fight mage with EM1's pet did over 1500 dps.

This is including my pets proc dps and not the mages as it was my parse.

Our SOF warder was perfect for tanking sof content and era. It's dps sucked buty at least it could TANK.

We ARE a major pet class. Over half our skills / aas are geeared to pet, most of our dps is linked to pet (burst). It SHOULD better tank content we are fighting and be better than some wimpy dot. We are attuned to keeping this thing alive not keeping up a liability that isnt on par with us tanking or dps wise.

Why should mages be the only pet tanking class? And don't give me that bs about them being silk wearers. Big deal. I'm in leather. Gate? My gate is bind point. I need a pet that can stand up to mobs ajust s much as any mage needs. It's essential for the bst class as it is for a mage. We however, have way less utility in how our pets are used. We get ONE pet. Thats it. They get 4 to choose from per situation of group or solo style.

Quote from: Sushe on November 20, 2008, 12:41:26 AM
'Now, if you read that carefully, all I said is the problem where the SoF warder is better than the SoD warder should be fixed...'

I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but that sounds like SoF pet is getting nerfed.

So, when does this *fix* go live? And any news on test?

If there was a data mistake with the SoF pet, it was a *good* mistake.  BSTs could finally keep their pet alive on raids without babysitting it, and we were grateful for that.  The SoF pet is good, mistake or not.  The SoD pet should be an upgrade to the current SoF pet, not an upgrade to a nerfed SoF pet.

Nerfing the SoF pet instead of improving the SoD one would be a big step back to the problems we used to have keeping our warder alive.  We've had the SoF pet for over a year, and I've heard no other classes complain.

With EM1 focus, a guildie mage is getting around 700dps out of his pet on normal group encounters in guardian.  Pal/War/Clr/Mag/Brd/Bst.   The range was 620dps - 800 dps.

Seeing as it was Rytan who made our TSS pet (which the SoF was based off of), I'm guessing it won't be a nerf to the SoF pet.  I think Sushe just is trying to be very clear (s)he doesn't know how it's going to be handled.  I hope this is hte case anyways :)

I really do wish we had better communications with dev, or vice versa.

well new patch on test as of today and warders still suck like they did previously. 

test silverwing in comparison pls.  If it's evaporating too, we've gotten totally screwed.

Hopefuly the fix didnt get to test server yet....

i was too afraid to try silverwing, and if they fixed it in data it would have rolled over to patch as well unless they don't copy new data each patch.

Inquiring minds wanna know! lol

Still not on test yet :(.

I took the time to write out a long report to rytan about our issues and got a good responce, even though my formating went all haywire and i rewrote it just now but this is his response on pets

From:    Rytan_the_Wyrmlord
To:    Obsessedwith
Date:    11/26/2008 11:26:49
Subject:    Re:83 Beastlord warder

Chris,

Not sure what happened with your message but the formatting is all kinds of crazy to the point I can't even read most of it.  The part I did get through about pet tanking is definitely valid, and we've adjusted the pets on test to tank much better.  The short version is that they were missing some data that the previous 76-80 pets had.  You should see a marked increase if you compare the pets on live to test.

I'd be happy to look at your other concerns if you can get them in a readable format, but the previous post seems to have wrong with it.

That's good news, thanks for doing that man.

What about its crapola dps? plzzz look into that too.

i have put a lot of suggestions in my new posting to him, all of which would be very welcome.

This is very welcome news indeed. Thank you Obsessedwith.

not to add insult to ingury but did they do something to prism skin as well? I have not seen that proc anywhere close to the rate it used to? Mabye its just me

Pet procs suck becuse pet is sucking by not swining as much, at least that's what i've been seeing on mine. With no warrior skills the pet's dual, double, and tripple attacks are way down, though it does fire them off, it's just not as frequently.

That's why i see all his procs less in my opinion.

Hmm mabye thats why his tanking seems down as well. Instead of upping the tanking they need to increase the attacks so he procs more and in turn tanks better. Just a thought.

nah, i'd rather have him more powerful at the core, than just make the proc happen more often.

Trust me on this... your pet wont get much noticeably better in dps or tanking... patch or no patch.  From long discussions this is the inevitable truth.  Mages get steamrolled if they ever get hit... we, well... don't that easily.  It's a trade off. I would love it, but it wont happen.

Quote from: bobokatt1970 on November 28, 2008, 05:46:15 PM
Trust me on this... your pet wont get much noticeably better in dps or tanking... patch or no patch.  From long discussions this is the inevitable truth.  Mages get steamrolled if they ever get hit... we, well... don't that easily.  It's a trade off. I would love it, but it wont happen.

I disagree

Quote from: bobokatt1970 on November 28, 2008, 05:46:15 PM
Trust me on this... your pet wont get much noticeably better in dps or tanking... patch or no patch.  From long discussions this is the inevitable truth.  Mages get steamrolled if they ever get hit... we, well... don't that easily.  It's a trade off. I would love it, but it wont happen.

I trust that in tanking/survivalability will be significantly boosted, but dps will propably remain the same. As Hoskar took a huge hit on defence department, that is where the code is missing.

-Raz

if code was missing on defense it could have also been missing on offense

OK so I may be mis-reading but between the lines it appears that people think that Warrior itemisation in the databse may be missing - from Panthur's post "With no warrior skills the pet's dual, double, and tripple attacks are way down" and from Rytan's comment "The short version is that they were missing some data that the previous 76-80 pets had".  Could it be something as simple as not marking the pet as a Warrior / having Warrior skills?  That would account for a loss of tanking ability with the extra AC bonus / etc. but also lacklustre DPS with reduced dbl/triple attacks, etc?

I plan on poking my contact again today to see if anything has changed or if they have any info on when the next patch might be. Saddly the devs have been out of the office a lot lately with the holiday season.... so not much is getting done in general.

I also asked them to check into GBA, not sure what will come of that but I will try and keep everyone here as up to date as i can.

More info from Rytan

Obsessed,  thanks for the formatting fix that's much more readable.

I took another look at the pets and uncovered a problem with their defensive skills and their offense rating that is probably causing some of the issues you're seeing.  I'll get those updated on on test as soon as I can.  i suspect we'll patch by wednesday. Are you seeing lower dual wield/double attack rates then the lower level pets?  from all I can tell they should be equal in those regards.

I'd like to cover one thing at a time so lets stick to the pets for now until we get that squared away.

-Ryan

he is right on the double attack / duel weld rates being the same

You're my hero Ob!  Next time we die on a raid you sir will get my first focussed paragon! :-D

Damn I redact all mention of my previous post in regards to nothing probably getting changed.  I always figured since we are "semi" capable of tanking some stuff.. and adding decent DPS... that our pets were never going to be half of what a mage pet can do.  Good stuff Obsessed.

On a side note, just got my 85 necro pet for my alt necro.  That thing is a machine! it's scary to watch him go -- heck the 83 necro pet is one tough cookie as well.  When i get a chance gona sick the pets side by side on each other and see how ours do against the necro.  Should be some fun :)

Quote from: Sharrien on December 02, 2008, 02:03:26 PM
You're my hero Ob!  Next time we die on a raid you sir will get my first focussed paragon! :-D

But then who gets mine!!

Good info, thanks.  Looks like I was too pessimistic in my earlier post.  Thanks for staying on this with the devs.

more info hehe

Inbox :: Message
From:    Rytan_the_Wyrmlord
To:    Obsessedwith
Date:    12/02/2008 10:15:55
Subject:    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:83 Beastlord warder

I found the bash issue for sure (well ok pretty sure)  but the dual weild/double attack rates look normal.  Their offense skill was also set incorrectly so that's going to have a pretty dramatic impact on their hit rates and damage.

Honestly, this is brilliant. More than likely the change will be less than we want, but tbh any improvement would be worthwhile. Good work you guys :)

My mage just got her 81 air pet and uses crystallos trio group content petfocus, i thinki ts EM1.  She has 0 aas. Her 81 air pet is out tanking and beeating the tar out of my 3000 aa bsts pet in every direction possible.

Can we pretty plz plz plz ph PLEASE plz  have the modle for the 81 air pet as our warder?

Plz? It's so embarasing as a bst with so many years put into her that up comes my super duper gimp arse mage whos pet makes my main's look like a pos hardly worth summonig on raids.


EDIT: Oops, bst has 3000 aa, not 30000 aa!

It would interesting to know if any of the other classes pets are actually right, its easy to spot when something sucks, but too good?

Next question is when is this hitting live?

My mag air pet is what i'd love my SOD warder to base perform as (with mage's 0 aas regarding pet except for persistant minion-- i realy do need to get her /pet hold and pet focus!)) Pet clericing is...well for mage her 15k mana sucks lol. And tier 1 merc (the 34 plat one that casts ranks IIs) has just as bad a mana pool as my mage, but together the merc and mage can beat non named iksar in fos, but at fight's end obviously they both oom.

With the right aas on mage, and getting flagged for VoidE merc..that team can do some serious action.


EDIT: Wasn't clear what i meant on pet base: I meant it as both classes with 0 aas.

Erm, it will never happen Panthur, because then we WOULD be overpowered. Mage pet is a chainsaw mounted on a tank. Let's just be happy if our pet can actually tank when the changes go live, and maybe get a reasonable dps boost too...

Why?

Because we've never had a pet equal to the mage pet? 
/shrugs

I'd be happy with a 30% dps increase instead of 11%, and 25% tanking increase instead of 30% loss.

Quote from: Panthur on December 04, 2008, 04:41:07 AM
Why?

Also, because mages are SUPPOSED to have the toughest pet. Well, that was always my understanding of the power heirarchy in pet casters. TBH I thought necro's were number 2, we were number 3, and the rest I didn't care about. Maybe I'm out of touch.

Mages have pets with specific roles, and in those roles they should by all means excel and actually do so. Beastlords on the other hand have only one pet which should cover all roles good enough making it a pretty well rounded general purpose pet. And by all means it should be equal to a general purpose i mage pet, the latter will still have an advantage as it comes allready fully equipped with plate gear, jewelry and haste mask, only add weapons and its all set. Beastlords don't even have the ability to generate said equipment so without a lengthy equipment search (or levelling your own summon stuff twink) it cant be taken into consideration. Especially for tanking the difference is quite big.

our warder should tank much better than mages dps pet and worse than their tank pet, and do much more dps than their tank pet and less than their dps pet.

any idea on when this will hit test server?

I'll do a new silverwing test, and get some dps when i can

Hoshkar EM1
195,938 damage in 10:01
326.02 dps taken
1964 max hit
612 avg hit
344 minimum hit
Accuracy 59.93%
Evasion 23.36%
Defense 9.36%
320 hits
164 Misses
18 blocks
9 Dodges
14 Parries
9 Ripostes


Silverwing EM1
148,227 damage in 10:02
246.22 dps in 10:02
1924 max hit
572.31 average hit
304 minimum hit
47.70% accuracy
33.80% evasion
17.68% defense
259 hits
188 misses
48 blocks
20 dodges
28 ripostes

Hoshkar EM1 12/4/2008 Test
139475 damage in 10:02
231dps in 10:02
1834 max hit
304 min hit
583.58 avg hit
45.7% accuracy
33.5% evasion
18.20% defense
239 hits
188 misses
37 blocks
32 dodges
26 ripostes

it ... looks ... worse ?

Those were defensive parses...  incoming damage on the pet.

1st parse is hoshkar when SoD launched
2nd parse is silverwing when SoD launched
3rd parse is hoshkar today on test.

That's almost a wash.  246 vs. 231 dps on the pet is very minimal upgrade to prior pet.  Much boosted over the one that went live, but still pretty darn small.

I'll get some dps numbers up after I take mom out to her appointment.

But old dps parse was
Hoshkar EM1 SoD launch
186,238 damage over 10:32
294.68 dps
294.68 claw dps
0 Bash dps
207 max hit(non crit)
Accuracy 67.14%
954 hits
333 misses
195 Average Hit

Hoshkar EM1 Test 12/04/2008
194,699 dmg in 10:00
8.26 bash dps
316 claw dps
207 max non-crit
194 average hit
55 average bash
63 max bash
69.46% accuarcy
26.08% evasion
8.03% defense
978 hits
317 misses
38 dodges
75 parries

This is on a grey con, but apples to apples, its an improvement.
more coming.

Silverwing parsed about the same as my post in SOD pet sucks, A little higher at 272dps

I'll go do silverwing unfocused/focused, and hoshkar unfocused tanking when I can.

They still suck big time. At this kind of trend, in next expansion shaman pets will be out dpsing ours instead of just sks. We are a major pet class, its time our pets started ACTING like one and not a subpar piece of garbage where our heals no longer work effectively to keep it alive.

Our warder on raids have gotten so bad that I got rid of all pet heal spells and just keep him alive by having bulwark on him for 10 hits and use the AA heals for emergency. One would think EM6 would help a bit but it just seems to increase the con of the warder some.  I used that Heal over Time with a miraculous heal at the end... the HoT barely moved his life and then the heal at the end was one bub of health.  The cast time for the regular heal needs to be reduced to 1 second.  The delayed healing was great until it was linked with magi.  If we are supposed to be a cleric for our warder and are given all these heals, make them "cleric worthy" and have them do something so they are worth getting/memming.

On a side note, long ago when we first were able to click off buffs on our warder, I had sent in a feedback message saying it would be nice to have pet procs and haste be perma instead of timed and having to rebuff.  And now that we were given so many buffs/auras that are perma, for a majority of classes, I know it is possible.  I know with extended buff aa and gear effects the buffs themselves stay quite awhile like an hour and half or such. But maybe make it a benefit to those that can actually keep their warder alive, that we don't have to buff them unless we click it off and want a different proc for resist reasons.  They could even make it a class AA in a future expansion.  Call it Companions Perfected Alliance or something in that nature. I am not talking about growl or a buff from another class.  Just the pet proc and haste spell we are given each expansion.  Something for them and the rest of us to think about.

Also, just popped into my head while typing.  Make another rank or two of suspend minion.  If you die but your warder does not in the process, he is suspended if you do not already have a warder suspended.  Another rank could be you can have one suspended and still have another warder be suspended or if you die you do not lose the suspended warders.  Just rambling on now, trying to solve the Beastlord's problems one AA at a time!

Silverwing actually parsed a 222dps taken this time, so I may have to find out whats going on.

Hoshkar old EM1
195,938 damage in 10:01
326.02 dps taken
1964 max hit
612 avg hit
344 minimum hit
Accuracy 59.93%
Evasion 23.36%
Defense 9.36%
320 hits
164 Misses
18 blocks
9 Dodges
14 Parries
9 Ripostes

Hoshkar Unfocused Test 12/04/2008
189,756 damage in 11:11
282.38 dps taken
1964 max hit
624 avg hit
344 minimum hit
Accuracy 52.93%
Evasion 38.36%
Defense 18.36%
304 hits
171 Misses
46 blocks
36 Dodges
0 parries
23 Ripostes

Hoshkar EM1 12/4/2008 Test
139475 damage in 10:02
231dps in 10:02
1834 max hit
304 min hit
583.58 avg hit
45.7% accuracy
33.5% evasion
18.20% defense
239 hits
188 misses
37 blocks
32 dodges
26 ripostes

Not sure again why yalp's percents are wrong but..
When SoD went live, we had a -30% tanking increase and a 11% dps increase
We now have a 7% tanking increase(or less if that silverwing is right) and a 22% dps increase.

Comparing Silverwing to Hoshkar.
I need to level a mage to compare :(

Tanking tests done against a level 66 mob
DPS tests against a level 30 mob

Would use parsing dummies....  but we have no parsing dummies.  Not sure of any other test subject higher level with a controlled 10min parsing environment.

My mage is too much of a youngling to compare straight up with my evolved, 3k aa, raid geared bst. But even so, i can still tell the difference straight away that something is seriously wrong.

What is going on with bst warders? Why are they so WEAK? Why are our heals so..retardedly inefficient. Combined with weak warder, keeping them up is just imposible.

A mage has 4 pets to accomodate them in the 4 diferent situations they find themselves in. Mostly they use group pet when grouping with a tank, or a tank pet when solo or pet group, or just have no tank available. Or depending on content, use the air pet as tank cus its just so dam good (pet envy lol).

Ours should be balanced within the middle of all these with a toucvh of closer tanking to their earth pet as we just get one and we often are pet clericing an add with warder. I don't want my warder doing 900 dps (would be nice but i can live with it not that fabulous so long as it TANKS!!). But 300ish dps? Come on! That is not a beastlord partner anywhere near on par with content at lv 85.

The poor warder has gone downhill drastically and needs some serious loving.

PS: Would be nice if our promised sod spell did 20k heal or something. Its waaay too weak.

If i recall correctly:
Rk 1 heals and unfocused warders

73 pet heal - 8500hp
73 pet - 8500hp unbuffed

78 pet heal  - 10,000hp
78 pet - 13,300hp unbuffed(pet HP AA, so I'm off)

83 pet heal - 11,500
83 pet - 16,500hp unbuffed(pet HP AA, so I'm off)

/shrugs.   I don't see the pet as horrible,  just sluggish in progression...  a bit much sluggish.
improve 7% over SoF to 20%
improve 22% dps to 35% dps(I'd want 50% more dps over the SoF warder but /shrugs)

the focus of rytan was to get the pet fixed, it has been fixed.  now that that is done he has promised me he will talk more about the other issues.  the warders strength is one of them.  give it time.

Problem is the patches are monthly so we are stuck waiting month after month.... Oh look, its a new expansion...

Sorta what it feels like.

I sent rytan another message about possibly increasing the pets dps to 40% above SoF and defense to 25% over SoF pet and this was his responce

From:    Rytan_the_Wyrmlord
To:    Obsessedwith
Date:    12/05/2008 17:28:26
Subject:    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:83 Beastlord warder

I'm planning on looking at it some more next week after the patch, but I won't have time to make any additional changes before Tuesday.

One step at a time is all we can expect but the he is showing the willingness to listen and make adjustments which is very good for us.

Great. Not fixed this patch, a month after release. And not fixed for another month if at all....

Disappointing.

Um it is fixed on test right now and will go live this patch, this was in responce to a BOOST over the corrected pet

I know that. Its just agonizingly slow to get fixed for being a useful partner in battle. Both in dps and tanking, not to mention our pet healing ability is seriously hampered.

Quote from: Panthur on December 07, 2008, 01:30:58 AM
... and tanking, .../quote]

Why do you aspire for something the class was never intended for ?

Quote from: Brane on December 08, 2008, 04:13:47 PM

Quote from: Panthur on December 07, 2008, 01:30:58 AM
... and tanking, ...

Why do you aspire for something the class was never intended for ?

Not sure about you, but when I started my Beastlord and for a LONG time, my pet WAS used for tanking since it tanked much better then I did. Even after I was better at tanking, I still used pet to offtank adds (which is what Panthur is referring too). If you ever read other class forums you will see that add offtanking with pet is one thing almost always mentioned when Beastlords are brung up. It is something we have been able too do, even in SoF my pet could offtank with me healing it, in SoD, I don't even get a chance to heal it alot of the time before it dies.

I have to agree, on raids he is extra dps. When soloing though and in some groups he is used as an OT whenever needed. I have always used my warder this way.

I've always thought of him as a weak offtank that took alot of mana to keep up, but we could keep him up most of the time.

If he isn't meant to tank, why does he have superiority tanking to enchanter and SK pets.

our pets have always been either OUR tank while we healed or an add offtank.  been this way since day one.

Always used my pet to offtank adds when grouped or solo. From day one. WHY would it suddenly be changed now? Added with our heals now way way down per progression we can't fill our traditional roles as pet offtankers. Let alone mash pet lay hands fast enough to heal him before he croakes while enranged.

Speaking od whihc, does his enrage actualy WORK now? Mine just enrages and gets wtf owened regardless :(

Quote from: Panthur on December 08, 2008, 09:45:24 PM
Always used my pet to offtank adds when grouped or solo. From day one. WHY would it suddenly be changed now? Added with our heals now way way down per progression we can't fill our traditional roles as pet offtankers. Let alone mash pet lay hands fast enough to heal him before he croakes while enranged.

Speaking od whihc, does his enrage actualy WORK now? Mine just enrages and gets wtf owened regardless :(

That is cause of mob strikethrough (they are still hitting through enrage, weaponshield and all riposte type discs), which should be fixed with patch.

Oh good! Was kinda /boggled at why pets enrage wasnt working at all.

Speaking of patch, any link to the test patch notes so i dont have towait till tomorrow to see them?

Quote from: Panthur on December 08, 2008, 10:14:59 PM
Oh good! Was kinda /boggled at why pets enrage wasnt working at all.

Speaking of patch, any link to the test patch notes so i dont have towait till tomorrow to see them?

not posted yet

From today's patch notes:

*** Spells ***

- Corrected an issue that was causing the focused versions of pets summoned by the beastlord spell "Spirit of Hoshkar" to take more melee damage than they were intended to.

Soooo...how are they now for everyone? They seem to still get plowed by iksars in fos, but at least merc can heal it. Problem is in sof expansion, Pet was able to tank close to my level of tanking. Now its still far behind on that scale vs the iksar mob i was kiling.

Wish we got more pet tanking aas. Havent realy played with fortify companion as the cast time and recast timer sucks. WouldKILL for stone stance.

The tanking difference with the patch isn't much at all.

Also:

I know it doesn't really reflect actual dps, but it just bothers me that enchanter and shadowknight pets have a higher max hit than our warders. Even with enhanced minion 4.

Without growl of the puma or shammy puma, the dps difference between our warder and a shadowknight pet isn't really significant at all. This bothers me much more than the max hit problem.

Quote from: Saniiro on December 13, 2008, 12:28:59 AM
The tanking difference with the patch isn't much at all.

Also:

I know it doesn't really reflect actual dps, but it just bothers me that enchanter and shadowknight pets have a higher max hit than our warders. Even with enhanced minion 4.

Without growl of the puma or shammy puma, the dps difference between our warder and a shadowknight pet isn't really significant at all. This bothers me much more than the max hit problem.

The fixes have not gone live

Well thats both good and bad news for me! I'm glad their fix isnt so pathetic I couldnt notice it, but sad that I must wait a month or more for the possible fix. :(

Why did they put it in patch notes if it wasnt going live? That's pretty stupid.

Quote from: Obsessedwith on December 13, 2008, 12:51:51 AM

Quote from: Saniiro on December 13, 2008, 12:28:59 AM
The tanking difference with the patch isn't much at all.

Also:

I know it doesn't really reflect actual dps, but it just bothers me that enchanter and shadowknight pets have a higher max hit than our warders. Even with enhanced minion 4.

Without growl of the puma or shammy puma, the dps difference between our warder and a shadowknight pet isn't really significant at all. This bothers me much more than the max hit problem.

The fixes have not gone live

Hum, I could sworn that my warder tanked better after the patch. I guess, I was mistaken.

-Raz

The warder is the same, only diffeence is its CLASS got changed to warrior. So it's gotwarrior defensives, everything else is still sucktastic.

Was wondering if anyone had any new info on the 83 pet?

/tell Offilio Offilio`s warder -vs- Bimbalicus the Manysoul: -- DMG: 27654 -- DPS: 988 -- Scaled: 838 -- Claw: 20072 -- DirDmg: 7272 -- Bash: 310 -- Non-crit rate: 79.3% -- crit rate: 20.7% -- Attempts: 58 -- Hits: 58 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 476 -- Max hit: 2260 -- DMG to PC: 13398

Dunno how others pets are parsing as far as dps....but this is most i have ever seen out of mine.  Havent tried parsing normal mobs and whatnot.

Quote from: Offilio on January 06, 2009, 01:13:29 AM
/tell Offilio Offilio`s warder -vs- Bimbalicus the Manysoul: -- DMG: 27654 -- DPS: 988 -- Scaled: 838 -- Claw: 20072 -- DirDmg: 7272 -- Bash: 310 -- Non-crit rate: 79.3% -- crit rate: 20.7% -- Attempts: 58 -- Hits: 58 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 476 -- Max hit: 2260 -- DMG to PC: 13398

Dunno how others pets are parsing as far as dps....but this is most i have ever seen out of mine.  Havent tried parsing normal mobs and whatnot.

That had to be a short fight, cause there is no way in hell that is an accurate view of whats going on.

With disc on, and fully buffed, for sub-30 sec fight, obviously with misses not shown and more or less maxed pet aa's I'd be guessing. So grats offilio, you get almost a mage pet for the duration of BE when you're in the bard group? (just a guess on the bard). Very misleading to put that as a parse to people who don't know what the HoS raid entails, and even worse to not have misses shown.

Very very misleading fight parse to post, bimbalicus was a 30 second fight when we did it at the beginning of SoF, must be a lot less now. Much better would be a broodmother parse, even better if done without using bestial empathy.

I fall just short of those numbers parsing with max SoF aa + warder fury/alarcity maxed,  on a grey con with the pet hitting from behind, using disc for about a 33sec parse.

I don't have second spire tho, and I didn't have group enhancements like bard/shaman buffs.  I also only have EM1 still.

Without the disc, the pet's dps falls to half that.

Oops, hmm wonder how my pet misses got turned off....no wonder the numbers looked to good to be true lol.  I apologize for any misleading information.  And yes Bimba is a very short burn....really just consider it burst dps i guess you could say.

Will give full numbers when I'm not sick, flu sucks.

76 air pet,  110aa mage(no pet aa,   run5, pet disc, adv pet disc, SCM3, SCF3, FoM1, perfect invis, innate enlightenment, gift of mana 3, and a few others), spire servant

465melee dps against grey con mob(tanking the mob)
20 proc dps
Burnout VII rk 2
2 blades of the kedge

71 air pet, same situation
200 melee dps, tanking
20 proc dps
Burnout VII rk 2
2 blades


83 beast pet, 2900aa, warder fury 20, warder alarcity 17, EM1
Unparalled rapidity, vaxztn rk 2, epic 2.0 click, shaman focus buffs, no champ, no bard
110~ proc dps
384 melee dps(bst tanking with no damage)

83 beast pet, EM1, fury 20, alarcity 17
Unparalled rapidity, vaxztn rk 2
371 melee dps(pet tanking)
55 proc dps

All tests were about 5minutes

Thanks!  I was wondering tonight exactly what the proc dps for new pet was...in addition to other stuff.  I'm curious when the lost procs from having 2.0 click on will cause a drop in dps from having only the pet buff proc on.  It'll be a while yet, I see.

the group buff/full self buff one is probably less accurate, but

the haste/proc only parses were pretty controlled/scientific

It's enough to see that there's a very large difference in proc dps w/ 2.0 or not (on the order of at least 50% more proc dps w/ than w/o, if we assign a *very* low confidence level to the actual numbers in your parse).  I was honestly only going to do a 10 minute or so parse on each, unless the results were close.

Thanks!

in the process of doing more tests.

Have they ever replaced the test dummies?

76 air pet with prime armor + nastel jewelry, spire servant focus
127,177dmg in 10:01
211.61 dps
1839 max
570 avg
309 min
223 hits
167 misses
64 blocks
25 dodges
18 parries
35 ripostes

76 air pet no summoned gear equipped, spire servant.
128,429damage in 10:02
213.34 dps
1839 max
309 min
560.83 avg
229 hits
152 misses
54 blocks
32 dodges
26 parries
41 ripostes

Hrm.....  guess that proves mage pets come pre-equipped with plate.

83 beastlord pet, companion's durability 3, companion's agility 3, EM1
126,461 dmg in 10:02
210.07 dps
1834 max hit
526 avg hit
304 min hit
240 hits
186 misses
39 blocks
40 dodges
30 ripostes


83 beastlord pet, companion's durability 3, companion's agility 3, EM1
Prime plate bag, nastel bag

100,038dmg in 10:02
166.18dps
1734 max
467.47 avg
294 min
214 hits
209 misses
46 blocks
32 dodges
31 ripostes

78 beastlord pet
130,807 in 10:01
217.65 dps
1834 max
304 min
517 avg
253 hits
209 misses
40 blocks
23 dodges
23 ripostes

Mage pets if summoned using a pet focus come pre-equipped with primal plate, focus gear, muzzle of mowcha and a focus dependent back slot item. Just add weapons and they're fully equipped. However as far as i know that is only the case of level 71 and above pets, below that you still need to equip them.

The level of the mob(66), and its attack for that era(probably low) may be an issue.  But I have a hard time finding a parse mob with decent dps that is controllable that a pet can stand up to with merc healing for 10minutes.

Yeah, test dummies are back.  I need to get off my butt and head over there too :)

Test Eighty Five

83 pet - tank, EM1, Companion Agility 3
304,061dmg in 10:10
498.46 dps
1271 max
504 avg
254 min
603 hits
277 misses
79 blocks
51 dodges
33 ripostes

76 pet - tank spire servant
248,853 dmg in 10:11
407.29dps
1277 max
492 avg
260 min
505 hits
230 misses
120 blocks
47 dodges
46 parries
54 ripostes

I think test patched last night, these are new

76 air pet - tank spire servant
605,867 damage in 25:02
403.37dps
1277 max
476 avg
260 min
1271 hits
546 misses
330 blocks
129 dodges
142 parries
138 ripostes

81 air pet
247,236dmg in 10:17
400.71 dps
1169 max
463.86 avg
254 min
533 hits
245 misses
106 blocks
55 dodges
58 parries
47 ripostes

83 pet tank - full suit of prime/nastel, companion agility 3, EM1
622,702dmg in 25:01
414.86 dps
1208 max
242 min
445.42 avg
1398 hits
698 misses
180 blocks
176 dodges
124 ripostes

78 pet tank - full suit of prime/nastel, companion agility 3, EM1
607,287dmg in 25:02
404.32dps
1259 max
447.52 avg
242 min
1357 hits
693 misses
210 blocks
146 dodges
145 ripostes

71 air pet tank - Spire servant
766,382dmg in 25:02
510.24 dps
1319 max
592.72 avg
302 min
1293 hits
500 misses
314 blocks
145 dodges
141 parries
160 ripostes

78 silverwing, EM1, comp agility 3
279,111 in 10:00
465.19dps
1271 max
496.64 avg
254 min
562 hits
272 misses
83 blocks
50 dodges
36 ripostes

73 uluanes, EM1, comp agility 3
585,730 dmg in 10:00
976.22dps
1319max
953.96 avg
302 min
614 hits
216 misses
85 blocks
47 dodges
64 ripostes

83 hoshkar, EM1, comp agility 3 (got a little better since patch on test?)
278,038damage in 10:01
462.63dps
1271 max
495.61 avg
254 min
561 hits
268 misses
82 blocks
55 dodges
48 ripostes

73 uluanes, EM1, comp agility 3, full nastel/prime
412,628 in 10:03
684.29dps
1307 max
691.17 avg
290 min
597 hits
270 misses
82 blocks
46 dodges
55 ripostes

So looking at Vids post the 76 pet still has better defensive capabilities, while the 83 pet has better offensive. One glaring thing is that the 83 pet had no parries, was that an ommision on your part Vid or is he really not parrying?

Deja-Vu...

There were no parries

The 76 pet(magician AIR pet)  has better offensive(melee) capabilities, and equal or better tanking capabilities to hoshkar

So, once you put on mag armor, our pet mitigates better than the 76 mage pet,  its just the 76 mage pet has alot more defensive abilities besides mitigation

Air pet
1271 hits
546 misses
739 defensives

warder
1398 hits
698 misses
480 defensives

Wasn't there a dev comment somewhere that beasts would get a direct copy of the 76 air pet for our 83 beast pet?
Just wondering......  thought I remembered hearing something like that.
And now insanity sets in again, as I watch silverwing put up a small percent better tanking job than hoshkar....
Both against a level 85 mob.

I can put this parsing in its own topic if you like.  Just posting here since its an ongoing issue with Hoshkar.  I posted 73 and 71 pets just to show progression from TSS to SoF.  We got a sizeable tanking boost TSS to SoF(even if it was after launch).   I couldn't believe how well the 71 air pet tanked that 85 mob, nor how well armor helped the 73 pet.

I'm ok with small tanking boosts.  Right now its 0%,  it varies and hovers enough that it'll go a few percent one way or the other, so i'm just going to say hoshkar and silverwing tank the same.

Here's a dps parse for you.
All were EM1 except 70, which was unfocused.
70 went a little longer cause I'm geting sleepy.

70 pet with unrivaled rapidity
54,483dmg in 7:25
119.44 claw dps
2.99 bash dps
163 max
82.93 avg
20 min
657 hits

73 pet with unrivaled rapidity
80,602dmg in 7:01
187.03 claw dps
4.52 bash dps
242 max
127.53 avg
31 min
632 hits

78 pet with unrivaled rapidity
95,000dmg in 7:01
219.25 claw dps
6.46 bash dps
289 max
152 avg
42 min
623 hits
against a level 80 test mob, silverwing pulled in an additional 10dps.

83 pet with unrivaled rapidity
125,027dmg in 7:00
289.20 claw dps
8.49 bash dps
353 max
192 avg
54 min
649 hits

81 air pet with burnout VII rk 2
220,563dmg in 7:01
504.61 hit dps
12.67 bash dps
6.62 kick dps
390 max
321 avg
116 min
686 hits

76 air pet with burnout VII rk 2
176,810dmg in 7:00
402.89 hit dps
11.64 bash dps
6.45 kick dps
313 max
256.26 avg
94 min
690 hits

71 air pet with burnout VII rk 2
72,133dmg in 7:22
157.62 hit dps
3.19 bash dps
2.39 kick dps
171 max
129 avg
32 min
556 hits

83 beast pet with Unrivaled Rapidity (NO AA)
92,385dmg in 7:05
209.63 claw dps
7.75 bash dps
225 max hit
169.20 avg hit
54 min
546 hits

73 beast pet with unrivaled rapidity (no AA)
48,048dmg in 5:51
132.12 claw dps
4.77 bash dps
150 max
109.20 avg
31 min
440 hits

81 Enchanter pet rk 2, Hastening of erradien rk 2, summoned weapons from a mage(enc pets can't dual wield innately)
114,792dmg in 7:09
253.66 crush dps
8.45 bash dps
5.47 kick dps
278 max
212.58 avg
93 min
540 hits

any word on our pets defense or dps being upgraded lately ?

test patched today, i'll reparse when I can.
Silverwing tanking no armor
463.92dps
493.59 avg hit

Hoshkar tankning no armor
274,652 in 10:23
440.85 dps
1271 max
482.69 avg
254 min
569 hits
270 misses
105 blocks
57 dodges
48 ripostes

(maybe I didn't test from behind on the previous tests)
Hoshkar unrivaled rapidity
129,138dmg in 7:00
300.31 claw dps
7.16 bash dps
353 max hit
54 min hit
672 hits
413 misses

Great work Viid, it is appreciated :) I'm looking forward to not being "still broke" =)

This is getting depressing.

patch is in 3 days.

Either its fixed or not.

Yay for having to wait yet ANOTHER month if it's not, as it looks like it isn't so far.

As much as I hate having this not fixed, I can not complain that they dev team isn't working their asses off lately.

I don't think test has patched since I last parsed a couple days ago.
Not sure they'd push something live that wasn't on test first.

Ass pushing or not, this has been a known issue since BEFORE sod release. Enough delaying already. It's getting realy old fast.

just checked todays patch message there is no mention of our pets, sadly it looks like we have to wait another month if not two

Pretty rude imho, you wouldn't see mages sitting there saying oh well.. the;re be hell on soe forums, gues bsts are a special kind of calm person :)

I am not sure if or who has gotten on rytan but if you haven't i suggest you do so.  I know mages in my guild have even sent him parses and suggestions on how the pet should and could be better, we can't let this sleep or we will get ignored.

We already ARE ignored. It's been 2 patches later.

Please see: SoD T5 BP clicks.

So .. in order to address our pets crappiness, we have to get the top prize in the grouping game ... and say mages, their pet can just work ok all the time.

nicely balanced.

PS, whats the clicky ? not entirely sure allaz is correct atm

Spirit of Rathiss
2:     Add Proc: Viscous Venom
5:    Increase Hitpoints v2 by 200 per tick

Viscous Venom
1:     Increase Poison Counter by 3
2:    Decrease HP when cast by 1150
3:    Decrease Hitpoints by 690 per tick

Yes, that's what I though, it kinda doesn't really do much for the tankability, just adds more to moving poor tiddles up the hate list I guess.

Oh fantastic! now not only do we get crap pet, we get a crap pet that can break MEZ too oh joy.

When I use it, it'll likely be mainly on mobs that are unmezzaable, or that won't be mezzed, ever.

Quote from: Panthur on January 21, 2009, 06:34:12 PM
Oh fantastic! now not only do we get crap pet, we get a crap pet that can break MEZ too oh joy.

Complain more. See where it gets you. That pet proc is badass but you're putting it in a scenario where a retard would use it.

Or do you do that normally?

See, it doesnt address the pet actually staying alive. or being a touch more accurate. Or gaining a decent amount of stat from EM in the way a mage pet does. EM2+champion, the 81 air pet quads for 453, (very limited aa's).

I don't even know why I try

Because you're a savior! Your sig tells us so.

What's duration/recast on that buff?

And is that T5 raid or T5 group?

looks to be on T5 group.

1minute/10minute

Hmm. would be good thing to have actually. Been too lazy to farm bp essences tho, I'll have to start on that tonight.

(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7084/malprsep4.jpg)

The circled number is why I don't give two farts about this entire subject. All of you are busy complaining about the pet to realize that the power doesn't have to come from him.

Before any of you go off the edge and say "UR RAIDER LULZ GET OUTZ HERE WITH UBER GEARZ", yes, I know that. I'm not saying every Beastlord this side of the Mason Dixon should parse over 7k, but the secret isn't in the pet. Utilize what you have and get over yourselves.

Quote from: Inphared on January 22, 2009, 04:18:27 AM
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7084/malprsep4.jpg)

The circled number is why I don't give two farts about this entire subject. All of you are busy complaining about the pet to realize that the power doesn't have to come from him.

Before any of you go off the edge and say "UR RAIDER LULZ GET OUTZ HERE WITH UBER GEARZ", yes, I know that. I'm not saying every Beastlord this side of the Mason Dixon should parse over 7k, but the secret isn't in the pet. Utilize what you have and get over yourselves.

While i agree with you that the pet isn't everything it is something that we need to have fixed, you are rare my friend and right now 90% of us will need to fight for everything we can get.  Telling people to get over themselves while posting a "brag" sub 3 min burn with the gear you have is ironic to say the least.  Its a lot easier to make due with what you have when you have the best.  Now us normal beasts need to fight for a solution, and yes mister uber it would help you too believe it or not.

Quote from: Inphared on January 22, 2009, 04:18:27 AM
Before any of you go off the edge and say "UR RAIDER LULZ GET OUTZ HERE WITH UBER GEARZ", yes, I know that. I'm not saying every Beastlord this side of the Mason Dixon should parse over 7k, but the secret isn't in the pet.

Reading > You.

My pet sucks just a very tiny little bit less than yours does.

Shocking, I know.

My point is, if you spend a fight looking at your pet's damage scroll by, as opposed to your own, you're doing something wrong. Are your nukes locked out? Is howl being chained? Do you have the appropriate AA's to milk your individual self for DPS? Are you positioning yourself correctly?

Tiny things add up. I'm not saying I am pleased with the state of my pet. But I do with what I have, which is more than all of you are giving yourselves credit for.

So what goes into a 3 minute 7k dps burn? In the zerker forum they have many posts detailing pro's and cons to different disc orders. How do YOU do it? What spells do you have memmed? To get that number do you have a shaman and a bard in your group? Do you start with BA, then group BA, then BE, then 7th yr, then 3rd spire, then what? etc. Share your wisdom, oh sarcastic one. Personally I'm usually typing lots of stuff in caps at the raid, since nowadays I'm leading more raids than I'm actually enjoying.

Maybe do a new post somewhere.

perhaps someone smarter than me can help me with a possible problem I'm running into. 

Test Eighty Five, is doing between 380-420dps to the 76, 78, 81, and 83 pets.  I'm starting to wonder if this is his diminishing returns point, or if the mages didn't get a defensive upgrade either in SoD(besides more pet AA/pet spells/etc).

Any idea how much the test mob's atk goes up with each "increase offense"?  Seems raising that raises avg hit, but not max/min

QuoteMy point is, if you spend a fight looking at your pet's damage scroll by, as opposed to your own, you're doing something wrong. Are your nukes locked out? Is howl being chained? Do you have the appropriate AA's to milk your individual self for DPS? Are you positioning yourself correctly?

Tiny things add up. I'm not saying I am pleased with the state of my pet. But I do with what I have, which is more than all of you are giving yourselves credit for.

To quote an earlier post you made somewhere Inpha..../golf clap

And here lies the problem, the bitching and moaning and cant agree on anything

The pet needs to be fixed, nobody's disagreeing with that.  Some people just like to bitch for the sake of bitching though.  They're best ignored.

Whats funny is I have been playing for 6 years or so and find myself well geared aa's ect and I can never come close to 7k dps..... Shoot on that fight I did 4186 (now I did not do pure burn on it but shit Its sad to say I do not know the burn order to get a pharse that high).
MY burn order is kinda weak:
Start off with Growl on hit GBA
Then go Disc with vet aa and fenzy aa
Nuke swarm pets ect every chance i get I load 2 ice and 1 poison nuke. Now I also still hit people with fero and FP while I dps down mobs So I know I lose stuff.
I hope oneday to hit 7k pharse but do not see it anytime soon, Unless my burns are totally off and can be inproved.... JUst never had a beast to tell me a burn cycle.... That would be a good post to make on these forums the max burn and spell set for it......

Maybe someone could help us beast out. BTW I always thought I had great DPS for a beast until I met Inpha now I just think I suck on the dps part of the class.


Do not look at magelo I need to update it lol it way way off and behind lol last update 10/10/08 i think lol.

There's a very recent thread on maxing DPS right here: http://forums.beastlords.org/index.php/topic,8211.0.html (http://forums.beastlords.org/index.php/topic,8211.0.html)

Read that and has very little on a pure set-up
Should read out more like:
Spell gems:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10



Then disc/spell order on you
First burn
second
thrid
4th if still left or what do u use

Something like this would make more since and help more people out. Now rk's LVL aa's gear will all make a diff. on how high your DPS is but this way it would give people the right idea on the order. Monks and rouges and zerkers all pretty much talk about this stuff and have a way they all do it no matter the lvl ect.... So why can't beast all get on the same page.

I'm pretty sure that unless you have to cooridnate with other group members (i.e. epic clicks from Shm etc) it's a no brainer.  Burn all available discs, nuke ever time the gem refreshes (3 of them, poison and 2 cold), swarm pet every time the gem refreshes, growl once all unstackable discs are burned.  If you have 7th AA burn it at the same time you do bestial empathy.  Kick, Foray, Roar, etc every time they pop. 

Yeah, the pet should do more dps, but the pet has just been a bonus to MY dps for a long time, not a source for dps.  I'll take any fixes that the devs can offer, but in the mean time, I do what I can to increase MY dps, not worried about the pet.

Quote from: Damim on January 22, 2009, 06:57:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that unless you have to cooridnate with other group members (i.e. epic clicks from Shm etc) it's a no brainer.  Burn all available discs, nuke ever time the gem refreshes (3 of them, poison and 2 cold), swarm pet every time the gem refreshes, growl once all unstackable discs are burned.  If you have 7th AA burn it at the same time you do bestial empathy.  Kick, Foray, Roar, etc every time they pop. 

Yeah, the pet should do more dps, but the pet has just been a bonus to MY dps for a long time, not a source for dps.  I'll take any fixes that the devs can offer, but in the mean time, I do what I can to increase MY dps, not worried about the pet.

The pet is YOUR DPS, part of the reason our double and triple attack skills are so low is because we have a pet that was supposed to make up the difference.  At least that was the idea when beastlords where created, at this point i would rather them drop the damn warder and increase our double attack and triple attack skills (yes i know i am nuts) as well as making the growl line non pet dependent.

   Well I am hardly maxed dps aa's (pet or self) but i've always considered the pet part of my dps not my dps. I parse a good 20-30 percent less with out my pet but I still can put out respectable numbers /shrug.

My point is that because of us being handed mediocrity time and time again we have come to accept weak pets, and i was pointing out why we should not have weak pets, yes i have played a beast since they started, on my second one now for the last 3 years.  I remember back in the day at level 9 you summoned your pet like an aa and it leveled with you taking on a portion of your stats as it progressed, i also remember why we had no double attack skills till after pop.  The pet was supposed to be something we could rely on to not only be a good boost to dps in groups but to be able to tank for us solo while we were capable of healing it consistently, right now it is neither.  Should we just do as Impha has said to do and basically suck it up and make due or do we take a stand against this bs and demand that one of our class defining attributes, not to mention along with slow the biggest excuses for other classes and dev's to deny us better melee capabilites, be fixed properly?

I agree Obsessed, we need to demand a better pet.  Our pet was supposed to be very very close to the mage pet in terms of power which is why our skills are capped so low.  Mages had to fight tooth and nail to get the huge pet upgrade they got in SoF and we have to do the same now.  Don't settle for mediocrity and don't let Mages tell you how our pet should or shouldn't be.  Right now our pet DPS is close to SK pet DPS, this can't be allowed and never should have happened.

Quote from: Obsessedwith on January 22, 2009, 07:05:37 PM

Quote from: Damim on January 22, 2009, 06:57:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that unless you have to cooridnate with other group members (i.e. epic clicks from Shm etc) it's a no brainer.  Burn all available discs, nuke ever time the gem refreshes (3 of them, poison and 2 cold), swarm pet every time the gem refreshes, growl once all unstackable discs are burned.  If you have 7th AA burn it at the same time you do bestial empathy.  Kick, Foray, Roar, etc every time they pop. 

Yeah, the pet should do more dps, but the pet has just been a bonus to MY dps for a long time, not a source for dps.  I'll take any fixes that the devs can offer, but in the mean time, I do what I can to increase MY dps, not worried about the pet.

The pet is YOUR DPS, part of the reason our double and triple attack skills are so low is because we have a pet that was supposed to make up the difference.  At least that was the idea when beastlords where created, at this point i would rather them drop the damn warder and increase our double attack and triple attack skills (yes i know i am nuts) as well as making the growl line non pet dependent.

I'm not telling anyone that they have to settle.  I do what I can with what I got.  I feel that we as a class have been pretty lucky the past few expansions in terms of power increases.    No matter what the devs can or will do with the pets, there are always those that will be unhappy because X class has a better pet or X class's pet does more dps.  I'm glad that I'm not dependent on the pet like I was 30 levels ago (you know, when the pet was a lot bigger part of our dps). 

Of course, what happens when we are told that we are pretty well balanced and that any increases in our pet will lead to decreases in our other abilities?  Or, of course, there is always the other classes that already think we are "overpowered" and will see this as an affront to their class in some way and we get further nerfs (i.e. Group Bestial Alignment)?

I guess that I've decided that I'm going to "suck it up" and make due with what I got  :-P

   I dont know, a good and knowledgable beast can usually parse up there with monks, rogues and lazy rangers. I always parse higher than our mages over prolonged fights.
  I dont think inphared is saying suck it up - I think he looks at the  larger picture. With our new aa's our over all class boost is significant. From alot of higher end beasts and retired higher end beasts I only hear that we got significant boosts to our dps with the last expansion. Some of those effect our pets and are aa's that tier to the pet. The only place I really hear alot of complaining about our pet is on these boards >.< Mostly amongst the beasts I know there is great satisfaction with the improvements we have obtained.
  Personallt I think the beastlord is moving in a different direction in terms of previous expansions. For example I don't see beasts pet tanking as much anymore with the new groupable gear and mercs available. It is much more efficient (especially with high mob hit points) for me to tank and have merc healing me. Allthough I will admit to being slightly better than group geared >.<
  Why we want to compare ourselves to mages I will never know.

Quote from: Ravenlock on January 22, 2009, 10:08:51 PM
Mages, Enchanters, and ShadowKnights had to fight tooth and nail to get the huge pet upgrade they got in SoF and we have to do the same now. 

Quote from: Ravenlock on January 22, 2009, 10:08:51 PM
Right now our pet DPS is lower than Shadowknight and enchanter pets, except after purchasing some flurry/crit aa, this can't be allowed and never should have happened.

Fixed your statements :)

Level 83 Minion of Sebilis Rk. II, Buffed with Expatiate Death Rk. II (78 Self buff), no pet aa's, no gear
Vebober -vs- Combined: Test Eighty Five: -- DMG: 498638 -- Time: 30:04 -- DPS: 277 -- Scaled: 277 -- Hit: 473324 -- Bash: 13764 -- Kick: 11550 -- Non-crit rate: 99.2% -- crit rate: 0.8% -- Attempts: 2225 -- Hits: 2225 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 224 -- Max hit: 435 -- DMG to PC: 0

Level 78 Maladroit Minion Rk. II, Buffed with Expatiate Death Rk. II (78 Self buff), no pet aa's, no gear
Kibn -vs- Combined: Test Eighty Five: -- DMG: 407553 -- Time: 30:04 -- DPS: 226 -- Scaled: 226 -- Hit: 385779 -- Bash: 11482 -- Kick: 10292 -- Non-crit rate: 99% -- crit rate: 1% -- Attempts: 3440 -- Hits: 2201 -- Missed: 1239 -- Accuracy: 64% -- Avg Hit: 118 -- Max hit: 358 -- DMG to PC: 0

And I parsed my enchanter 81 pet rk 2 with mage pet weapons and erradien rk 2 haste at
265dps
with no flurry/crit AA

Hoshkar parsed a 210 melee dps with 40dps from proc with no AA, and EM1 focus.
Hoshkar parsed a 290 melee dps with 55dps from proc with flurry17, crit20
The epic 2.0 which every bst may not have added around 30 or 40 dps to the flurry17/crit20 parse as well if memory serves.

A 76 SS air pet with no pet AA, and /pet no cast to remove stun DD, parsed 405dps
A 71 SS air pet with the same, parsed 162dps

The whole thing goes back to SoF and the reworking they did of pets.
SK, Enc, Mag  got 150%(double is 100%) or higher boosts to dps
Bst(and to my knowledge, Nec and Shm) didn't.

If that's the way devs envision pets...  not alot you can do about it. /shrugs.  I just remind my group members that my pet isn't as good in this content as older pets were.  I still can use him to offtank when needed, he doesn't hold up nearly as well as older pets used to version content back then, but its not unplayable.

Haha thank you Vidyne!  It's worse than I thought then. 

I think the problem is that we have a fracture in the beastlord community when it comes to pets.  I started the Beastlord when Luclin came out because of the PET first and the ability to melee/buff second.  Our pets were advertised as super tanking and taunting machines that could easily hold aggro as the beastlord pulled out of combat to heal himself and the pet.  This was very true for a long time.  Our pets could easily tank and pull aggro from almost anyone including air pets and we had the far superior pet heals.  I think this is what a lot of people expected when they rolled a beastlord, it's at least what I expected.

Now it seems that some beastlords don't care so much about the pet but purely about themselves.  I have even seen people write that they would be happy if the pet was abolished and they had skill caps raised and better discs.  If that's what you want, then roll a monk.  We are supposed to be the second best PET class in the game, not the second best monk in the game.  Our class is based around the warder and it sickens me to see that people are eaither giving up completely on our faithful companions or letting him fade to oblivion as long as they get better melee/tanking abilities.

It just seems to me that a lot of beastlords have lost their way.  This class is not about just you, it's about you and your warder.  The warder was always supposed to be a top notch tanking and aggro machine that could put out near mage pet dps and stand toe to toe with most any exp mob.   Like the beastlord himself, the warder has become frail and weak, but only because their masters let them.

Meldrath the Malignant on 1/15/2009 in 202sec

Total
--- DMG: 20668506 (100%) @ 102319 dps (102319 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 843647 @4417dps

Hzath
--- DMG: 560211 (2.71%) @ 2948 dps (2773 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 5200 @260dps

Hamerr
--- DMG: 469490 (2.27%) @ 2484 dps (2324 sdps)

Drauger
--- DMG: 419443 (2.03%) @ 2243 dps (2076 sdps)

Hzath`s warder
--- DMG: 144926 (0.7%) @ 767 dps (717 sdps)

Hzath`s pet
--- DMG: 122700 (0.59%) @ 646 dps (607 sdps)

Drauger`s warder
--- DMG: 113589 (0.55%) @ 607 dps (562 sdps)

Hamerr`s warder
--- DMG: 91061 (0.44%) @ 490 dps (451 sdps)

Hamerr`s pet
--- DMG: 54830 (0.27%) @ 319 dps (271 sdps)



This is a recent meldrath burn from my guild.  We all have EM4 pet focus and just recently entered crystallos the day before.  I'm a bit higher than them because I've grinded a lot more of the SoD AAs than they have.  Our warders are very close if you remember I don't pick up their warder procs but I do pick up my own. 

I'm personally more frustrated being dominated by rangers (coming close to 7k) using bow discs than our warders doing slightly less dps than they should.

time to ask for a strong pet then and a pet that does much more dps.

otherwise why we are capped at double attacked skills etc
if there is no need when our pet doesnt do much damage

let us ask for what we need and deserve.
and not agree with less.

just keep knocking on the doors as beastlords
until soe fixes this in our benefit

and we have a tank and dps pet in one that is near the mage pet dps tankability

I think that our class is overpowered at the High end of the game... But its not because of our pets. Our pets blow and need alot of work. I could deal with our pet having the same dps but living on raids. It sucks making 3 pets a raid or more because it died to ramp or dumb stuff. I love what sony has done with our melee and aa's... But our spells and pet do need alot of work.
Also do we even have people fighting for us with this stuff or do we stay unheard. I know sushe has talked and said things in the past (love that kitty) but not sure if she or anyone else is doing anything.

We have to be cautious when asking for a big increase of dps since we overall do good there. Especially if raid geared we often enough are bang in the top melee dps spots, comparable to a well played ranger (of course behind rogues, berserkers and monks). That of course still means that we are way behind our top casters, especially wizards but druds and mages as well (if played well, not many can do that on a mage apparently).

Of course out pet needs a lot of love regardless, but it is of course a game of overall balancing stuff.

I don't care how much dps my pet does.  I care how much dps my pet and I do together.  Right now, I'm pretty satisfied with the dps my pet and I are doing combined.  Iirc from Vidyne's parses, the 83 pet is a dps increase from the 78 pet (albeit not a large increase).

What I do think needs improving is the 83 pet's tanking.  He parses out about the same as the 78 pet defensively.  It seems there's still some broken data with the 83 pet when it comes to defensive capabilities.

The pet needs a huge tanking and DPS increase, period.  Just because some people are happy with their "combined" DPS don't ruin it for those of us that rely on the pet a lot more for tanking and DPS.

Mages had great "combined" DPS when their pets were weak, but they still fought for and got the big pet upgrade.

The reason those high DPS numbers are being hit is because our personal DPS is the only area we've been getting boosts. The devs are looking at our overall DPS and saying to themselves "That should make them happy!" Afterall, devs do look at the overall picture.

The problem is in the fact our class has 3 facets instead of 1, melee/pet/spell. Devs have allowed the pet and spell facet to stagnate and overly increased the melee portion. At this point I really don't expect a boost for the pet because of where we sit in the big picture, where we they want us to be. If the pet or spell portion is boosted it will over power the class.

What we need to do is start working on the devs now for the next expansion. Stagnate our melee side and boost spell/pet side for our standard expansion power increases. Since this has actually been going on for the last 3 expansions it might take that long to balance us back out again. Unless of course everyone is willing to accept a complete re work of the class and devs are willing to put in the time to do it.

   Eh... grbage ... we got some companion aa's in last expansion... >.<

So...

20-30% increase in pet dps isn't enough each expansion?
For years it seemed it was, though I only went back to OoW, I can go back further.

Do we need a 150% boost for one expansion like mage/enc/SK?  Putting the pet at 525dps for next expansion, where the mage pet would be 630dps.

Are mages, sk, and enc the true pet classes since they received those boosts and shm/nec/bst didn't?

Is the 24% increase in dps we got with SoD, not enough?  50% would put it at 255dps instead of 210dps.
75% would put it at 297dps.  (this is if they rework the SoD pet, not wait til next expansion)
100% - 340dps
125% - 382dps
150% - 425dps

We again, don't know the dev's vision of the class.  If it's intended for enc and sk pets to outdps a bst pet,  then it won't get changed.  Our pet outtanks both of those by almost double.

It's strange to look at the numbers and see that our pets at least for the previous few expansions before SoF,  were ending up being as powerful as the last air pet, generally.
TSS Bst pet had about the same dps as the OoW air pet
SoF Bst pet had about the same dps as the TSS air pet
If you give us the 150% boost mages got,  the SoD pet has the same dps as the SoF pet.

Just looking at patterns.  Frankly the pet seems semi-ok to me, I'm more thinking replace the 24% with a 75% increase would be fine with me.  Putting the baseline no aa EM1 pet at 300dps.

Quote from: Grbage on January 23, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
What we need to do is start working on the devs now for the next expansion. Stagnate our melee side and boost spell/pet side for our standard expansion power increases.

Thank you, I've been waiting 11 pages now for somebody to say this.

Pet focus scaling is a good chunk of this too - our pet doesn't seem to scale nearly as well as the Werewolf pet does w/ higher foci.

Quote from: Grbage on January 23, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
Unless of course everyone is willing to accept a complete re work of the class and devs are willing to put in the time to do it.

I wish they would. When we were first introduced we were a real different class to play. Now we're just a cut and paste remnant of what made us great. To me we have no more real class defining abilities that just really set us apart from other classes.

We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better. I do sometimes find those rare players that prefer a beast to a shaman. The last one that I remember gave me the reason that they liked the fact that we can take care of ourselves if adds come along.

Quote from: nedoirah on January 23, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better.

That must be why you usually see more Beastlords on a roster than Magicians, or why a group with no slower would take a beastlord over some other DPS class.

Quote from: Inphared on January 23, 2009, 08:40:34 PM

Quote from: nedoirah on January 23, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better.

That must be why you usually see more Beastlords on a roster than Magicians, or why a group with no slower would take a beastlord over some other DPS class.

It's to the point now on my warrior I could care less if I have a slower along or not unless working real tough content. I got Korafax flagged and had a slower along on only a couple of the missions and only one of those did I specifically look for a slower. Otherwise, slower has been relegated to the nice to have category but not necessary so long as the tank is decently geared and aa'd.

   And THAT is why we are useful - we put out moderate dps, we buff three slots mana regen and slow. BAM! nice package >.<
   With the last two expansions slow is far less meaningful and is mostly mitigated away anyway hehe. Let us say a shaman lands a slow that is mitigated by 50 percent. That 50 percent does not mean the mob is 50 percent slowed. It means that it is slowed for 50 percent of w/e the slow is which is like 70 percent. When you are talking in terms of percentages of a percentage then the 5% difference in shaman slow and beast slow is not as noticeable.
   When you say we have no place in group you are just being melodramatic and drawing away form the pet issue. We do alot of things well.
   We can buff well (not as well as buff specific classes), we slow pretty well, we dps very well over long periods of time, we can off tank if need is great with out getting one rounded, we are the best class to help groupmates recover mana now, we snare well (haven't you noticed SoD mobs that are unsnareable are pet snareable? at least until its nerfed) and we can patch heal in a pinch.
   Personally, as nice as it is to have a pet I think that it is becoming our animilastic abilities that are defining us now. If you want things to be the way they were 10 years ago then delete the past 10 expansions lol.
   I would like to see
     -longer slows
     -perhaps a longer haste
     -some sort of high damage pet proc dot or something that is low mana cost and doesnt have to be clciked or have a long refresh.
     -and perhaps a higher triple attack cap.

   If we must get more power for our pet lets not pretend we are useless, give the devs some real data to consider. Let's show why we need a stronger pet not why we wish we were mages or shamans or enchanters lol.
   I have a feeling though that we are heading into a whole new direction. Rather than see us get hung up on our pet and stagnate because of nostalgia for how the game was 10 years ago let's move forward. The game probably wont last another 10 years, you may as well have fun playing it now instead of getting hung up on apparent sleights to our class when in reality we are gaining great power with our new abilities.
   Just a quick point I forgot to add, shamans MODIFY dps we ARE dps lol and our panther line is much better than the champion line - we just can't cast it on others.

                                                  -wild
   

I'm almost tempted to say screw upping the pet dps and just make it take a good hard beating *alot* better .. offtanking mobs which hit for ~3k+ it needs alot more hp and alot better mitigation/avoidance..
if it could reliably park a mob it would be reminscent of the class as first developed.

That's not what I'm saying. I was saying our pet was one of the defining things about our class. That has little to no meaning now. I played when the pet was a 10 second casting ability not a spell and the spirit of (x) was a buff that increased the pet power. Back then the pet was a buff that appeared in our buff window. But our pets back then were relatively more powerful in terms of level than they are now.