Issue with Spirit of Hoshkar (Dev info)

Wolfcaller · January 23, 2009, 02:04:42 PM

I don't care how much dps my pet does. I care how much dps my pet and I do together. Right now, I'm pretty satisfied with the dps my pet and I are doing combined. Iirc from Vidyne's parses, the 83 pet is a dps increase from the 78 pet (albeit not a large increase).

What I do think needs improving is the 83 pet's tanking. He parses out about the same as the 78 pet defensively. It seems there's still some broken data with the 83 pet when it comes to defensive capabilities.

Ravenlock · January 23, 2009, 02:32:06 PM

The pet needs a huge tanking and DPS increase, period. Just because some people are happy with their "combined" DPS don't ruin it for those of us that rely on the pet a lot more for tanking and DPS.

Mages had great "combined" DPS when their pets were weak, but they still fought for and got the big pet upgrade.

Grbage · January 23, 2009, 05:00:12 PM

The reason those high DPS numbers are being hit is because our personal DPS is the only area we've been getting boosts. The devs are looking at our overall DPS and saying to themselves "That should make them happy!" Afterall, devs do look at the overall picture.

The problem is in the fact our class has 3 facets instead of 1, melee/pet/spell. Devs have allowed the pet and spell facet to stagnate and overly increased the melee portion. At this point I really don't expect a boost for the pet because of where we sit in the big picture, where we they want us to be. If the pet or spell portion is boosted it will over power the class.

What we need to do is start working on the devs now for the next expansion. Stagnate our melee side and boost spell/pet side for our standard expansion power increases. Since this has actually been going on for the last 3 expansions it might take that long to balance us back out again. Unless of course everyone is willing to accept a complete re work of the class and devs are willing to put in the time to do it.

wildwaters · January 23, 2009, 05:30:26 PM

Eh... grbage ... we got some companion aa's in last expansion... >.<

Vidyne · January 23, 2009, 05:45:19 PM

So...

20-30% increase in pet dps isn't enough each expansion?
For years it seemed it was, though I only went back to OoW, I can go back further.

Do we need a 150% boost for one expansion like mage/enc/SK? Putting the pet at 525dps for next expansion, where the mage pet would be 630dps.

Are mages, sk, and enc the true pet classes since they received those boosts and shm/nec/bst didn't?

Is the 24% increase in dps we got with SoD, not enough? 50% would put it at 255dps instead of 210dps.
75% would put it at 297dps. (this is if they rework the SoD pet, not wait til next expansion)
100% - 340dps
125% - 382dps
150% - 425dps

We again, don't know the dev's vision of the class. If it's intended for enc and sk pets to outdps a bst pet, then it won't get changed. Our pet outtanks both of those by almost double.

It's strange to look at the numbers and see that our pets at least for the previous few expansions before SoF, were ending up being as powerful as the last air pet, generally.
TSS Bst pet had about the same dps as the OoW air pet
SoF Bst pet had about the same dps as the TSS air pet
If you give us the 150% boost mages got, the SoD pet has the same dps as the SoF pet.

Just looking at patterns. Frankly the pet seems semi-ok to me, I'm more thinking replace the 24% with a 75% increase would be fine with me. Putting the baseline no aa EM1 pet at 300dps.

Khauruk · January 23, 2009, 06:14:34 PM

Quote from: Grbage on January 23, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
What we need to do is start working on the devs now for the next expansion. Stagnate our melee side and boost spell/pet side for our standard expansion power increases.

Thank you, I've been waiting 11 pages now for somebody to say this.

Pet focus scaling is a good chunk of this too - our pet doesn't seem to scale nearly as well as the Werewolf pet does w/ higher foci.

nedoirah · January 23, 2009, 06:37:41 PM

Quote from: Grbage on January 23, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
Unless of course everyone is willing to accept a complete re work of the class and devs are willing to put in the time to do it.

I wish they would. When we were first introduced we were a real different class to play. Now we're just a cut and paste remnant of what made us great. To me we have no more real class defining abilities that just really set us apart from other classes.

We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better. I do sometimes find those rare players that prefer a beast to a shaman. The last one that I remember gave me the reason that they liked the fact that we can take care of ourselves if adds come along.

Inphared · January 23, 2009, 08:40:34 PM

Quote from: nedoirah on January 23, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better.

That must be why you usually see more Beastlords on a roster than Magicians, or why a group with no slower would take a beastlord over some other DPS class.

Grbage · January 23, 2009, 09:26:46 PM

Quote from: Inphared on January 23, 2009, 08:40:34 PM
Quote from: nedoirah on January 23, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
We no longer have much to offer groups [or raids] that other classes can't offer or better.

That must be why you usually see more Beastlords on a roster than Magicians, or why a group with no slower would take a beastlord over some other DPS class.

It's to the point now on my warrior I could care less if I have a slower along or not unless working real tough content. I got Korafax flagged and had a slower along on only a couple of the missions and only one of those did I specifically look for a slower. Otherwise, slower has been relegated to the nice to have category but not necessary so long as the tank is decently geared and aa'd.

wildwaters · January 23, 2009, 10:26:06 PM

And THAT is why we are useful - we put out moderate dps, we buff three slots mana regen and slow. BAM! nice package >.<
With the last two expansions slow is far less meaningful and is mostly mitigated away anyway hehe. Let us say a shaman lands a slow that is mitigated by 50 percent. That 50 percent does not mean the mob is 50 percent slowed. It means that it is slowed for 50 percent of w/e the slow is which is like 70 percent. When you are talking in terms of percentages of a percentage then the 5% difference in shaman slow and beast slow is not as noticeable.
When you say we have no place in group you are just being melodramatic and drawing away form the pet issue. We do alot of things well.
We can buff well (not as well as buff specific classes), we slow pretty well, we dps very well over long periods of time, we can off tank if need is great with out getting one rounded, we are the best class to help groupmates recover mana now, we snare well (haven't you noticed SoD mobs that are unsnareable are pet snareable? at least until its nerfed) and we can patch heal in a pinch.
Personally, as nice as it is to have a pet I think that it is becoming our animilastic abilities that are defining us now. If you want things to be the way they were 10 years ago then delete the past 10 expansions lol.
I would like to see
-longer slows
-perhaps a longer haste
-some sort of high damage pet proc dot or something that is low mana cost and doesnt have to be clciked or have a long refresh.
-and perhaps a higher triple attack cap.

If we must get more power for our pet lets not pretend we are useless, give the devs some real data to consider. Let's show why we need a stronger pet not why we wish we were mages or shamans or enchanters lol.
I have a feeling though that we are heading into a whole new direction. Rather than see us get hung up on our pet and stagnate because of nostalgia for how the game was 10 years ago let's move forward. The game probably wont last another 10 years, you may as well have fun playing it now instead of getting hung up on apparent sleights to our class when in reality we are gaining great power with our new abilities.
Just a quick point I forgot to add, shamans MODIFY dps we ARE dps lol and our panther line is much better than the champion line - we just can't cast it on others.

-wild

Karve · January 24, 2009, 12:53:52 PM

I'm almost tempted to say screw upping the pet dps and just make it take a good hard beating *alot* better .. offtanking mobs which hit for ~3k+ it needs alot more hp and alot better mitigation/avoidance..
if it could reliably park a mob it would be reminscent of the class as first developed.

nedoirah · January 24, 2009, 05:31:37 PM

That's not what I'm saying. I was saying our pet was one of the defining things about our class. That has little to no meaning now. I played when the pet was a 10 second casting ability not a spell and the spirit of (x) was a buff that increased the pet power. Back then the pet was a buff that appeared in our buff window. But our pets back then were relatively more powerful in terms of level than they are now.