Did this about an hour ago and a some people in serverwide chat wanted me to post it.
Firstly:
I have 135 Accuracy, 71 CE, 45% Self Haste, Max Worn Attack, and my weapons are in my Magelo. (Please do not refer to my magelo for accuracy / CE numbers, some items aren't updated)
Secondly:
These were my only buffs during both periods of testing.
(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1710/noferovg3.jpg) (http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/3231/ferozt7.jpg)
Thirdly:
Parsing was done on Exterminator Sutten in Rivervale. He has over 2 million hitpoints. I was not moving (drogmor), and he was cornered by my melee.
Fourthly:
My Fero lasts 10 minutes and 36 seconds, so that's what I timed each parse for. I did 2 without Fero, and 2 with it.
Lastly:
Parses without Fero:
323107 Damage (507.23 DPS)
330026 Damage (518.09 DPS)
Parses with Fero:
338938 Damage (526.50 DPS)
339065 Damage (533.76 DPS)
Enjoy.
**EDIT**
I had some numbers flipped, and fixed some spelling.
That data says you saw an ~18 dps or 3.5% improvement in your dps for your situation on this mob. I assume this is melee only, including procs?
Yes, straight melee, procs included. That's accounting for a lot of the increases. Also, with just the buffs that I had, I believe I was under the attack softcap (without Fero), so that might have something to do with it. The numbers would (probably) be much less drastic in a raid setting.
Fero is a nice boost for those under the soft cap but once you go over the soft cap it doesnt add a lot. Really there is no argument that fero is good up to a point, after that point it just doesnt cut it.
Some of you have heard of Wycca's test during beta. Pulling from memory here but Wycca was around 2700-2800 attk (high end monk) with fero during the test on I "think" a lvl 70 test dummy. Buffs don't fade so it was a long term test with no changes and fero added 11-12 dps.
11-12 DPS is blah, now factor in that it was 100% uptime for those numbers. Real life game play leave you with 50-75% uptime in most my groups so that's 6-9 DPS gained for a monk (probably add all pure melee to the list) and less for hybrids due to just having less attacks per round. 6-9 DPS for a buff that has a base of 6.5minutes and cost a ton of mana has reached the point that you might as well cast a nuke for less mana and call it good.
Quote from: Grbage on April 28, 2007, 03:20:23 PM
Some of you have heard of Wycca's test during beta. Pulling from memory here but Wycca was around 2700-2800 attk (high end monk) with fero during the test on I "think" a lvl 70 test dummy. Buffs don't fade so it was a long term test with no changes and fero added 11-12 dps.
11-12 DPS is blah, now factor in that it was 100% uptime for those numbers. Real life game play leave you with 50-75% uptime in most my groups so that's 6-9 DPS gained for a monk (probably add all pure melee to the list) and less for hybrids due to just having less attacks per round. 6-9 DPS for a buff that has a base of 6.5minutes and cost a ton of mana has reached the point that you might as well cast a nuke for less mana and call it good.
Wycca had the best monk melee setup available at the time (2.5 w/ damage augs, Blessing of Sol Ro), 12% overhaste I believe, max accuracy, and was buffed during the test to 2.7kish attack. He ran parses for Auspice, Fero and other attack buffs, and the results were just depressing.
I believe that Ferocity would have a higher impact for monks than other classes, due to their higher damage multiplier on melee, their potential 100% strikethrough (w/ AAs and 35% item strikethrough capped), and the highest number of melee attacks per minute of any class. At the very least, the parses would reach a high confidence level much more quickly.
Quote from: Inphared on April 28, 2007, 01:03:23 PM
Yes, straight melee, procs included. That's accounting for a lot of the increases.
I don't understand...are you saying that there was a large increase in proc dps?
QuoteAlso, with just the buffs that I had, I believe I was under the attack softcap (without Fero), so that might have something to do with it. The numbers would (probably) be much less drastic in a raid setting.
Yeah, your attack was low for this, and you were attacking from the front, so the mob's defenses were causing lower dps. Not to mention low AC on the Exterminator skewing "real world" confidence in the results.
Quote from: Khauruk on April 28, 2007, 06:07:28 PM
I don't understand...are you saying that there was a large increase in proc dps?
I probably should have phrased that better, but I'm saying that proc dps is erratic and basically uncontrollable. I may not have procced a lot on one of the parses, but I could have proced a whole lot more on the next, I could have not critted as much, etc etc etc. That's why the numbers may be vary more.
Aye, the RNG in EQ has a pretty wide range of values so it influences parses a lot and to do reliable parses you need to run them for several hours for each value which is quite horrible to do on live servers. I think coprolith posted somewhere in his parsing 101 that you need around 100k swings for each value to get a reliable baseline parse, even fully hasted that takes several hours each.
Thank you for posting it Inp :)
I usually only use Fero on a couple fast backstabbing rogues on raids. It is nice to see it's not as "useless" as some people say it is.
KitKat
Wow, the difference in numbers though are quite tough to analyze. For each parse there is about an 11 dps difference between them. If you averaged the numbers together in thier significant pairs it would suggest an 18 dps bump. If you take the high from regular and the low from the fero end it only suggests an 8 dps bump the other end of the spectrum is a 26 dps bump.
It seems the random proc'ing might be skewing some of the results, might need a more longer parse =(.
On the other hand when u did this parse. Did you use Rake/Roar of Rolling thunder/Jagged Claws. If so that might have effected the parse a bit. I find that using those skills depending on how i begin/end parses it will change the numbers a small bit.
Also hehe would it be any where near possible you can do this parse with chanty haste+ranger predator+ shammy dire. w/ and w/o fero. Mainly to test out how truely useful is fero to a raid buffed toon.
Please list attack before and after fero please.
If indeed I do this again, I won't be posting it here. Some Rogue made their way here, found this post, linked it on the SafeHouse forums, and the next day I got about 40 tells across servers calling me a dumbass.
So yeah.
No thanks.
Ouch, I am sorry.
It always sucks when people have to go out of their way to make you feel bad. If they really thought you were wrong, they should have posted their own parses here and talked it out like grown-ups.
Quote from: Inphared on May 01, 2007, 08:32:49 PM
If indeed I do this again, I won't be posting it here. Some Rogue made their way here, found this post, linked it on the SafeHouse forums, and the next day I got about 40 tells across servers calling me a dumbass.
So yeah.
No thanks.
How were you a dumbass to do a few test parses and post them? That is just stupid. If they want to disagree with you, I'm sure you would have been more than willing to talk to them.
This is some information from parses I made on a test dummy last beta. Sorry i havent kept them, they are also my first attempt at parsing so not perfect.
Quote
All parses done on a level 75 test dummy in the back. A bug in the arena meant buffs didnt wear off.
First was done with a beta buffed toon with no weapons at 10 min durations
Attk @ 1899 - 77.46 dps (buffless)
Attk @ 1982 - 80.70 dps (sv on) increase 3.24
Attk @ 2200 - 83.05 dps (fero on) increase 5.59
Attk @ 2283 - 83.78 dps (fero and sv) increase 6.32 (the extra 83 attk gives and increase of 0.73 over 2200 where as pre 200 its an increase of 3.24)
These where done on Sikkem fully raid buffed for approx 2 hours each
Attk @ 2020 - 389.92 dps (no Predator or DA Dog)
Attk @ 2020 - 393.39 dps (DA Dog) increase 3.47
Attk @ 2172 - 406.4 dps (Predator) increase 16.48
Attk @ 2172 - 407.76 dps (Predator and DA Dog) increase 17.84 (the DA Dog gave an increase of 1.36 with Predator on)
Attk @ 2486 - 429.0 dps (Predator + fero) increase 22.6 over just predator
For other beastlords:
Buffless - 77.46 dps (10 mins)
Growl of the leopard - 88.38 dps increase 10.92 (10 mins)
BE pet - 168.85 dps, 60.11% accuracy (200 casts)
BatM pet - 222.41 dps, 56.92% accuracy (200 casts)
Quote from: Spiritclaw on May 01, 2007, 09:41:17 PM
Quote from: Inphared on May 01, 2007, 08:32:49 PM
If indeed I do this again, I won't be posting it here. Some Rogue made their way here, found this post, linked it on the SafeHouse forums, and the next day I got about 40 tells across servers calling me a dumbass.
So yeah.
No thanks.
How were you a dumbass to do a few test parses and post them? That is just stupid. If they want to disagree with you, I'm sure you would have been more than willing to talk to them.
Yeah I would like to know who these rogues are actually. Cause I would like to see anything they have to prove otherwise. If they aren't bringing the figures to disprove this then they really have no room to say anything.
I had a rather long chat with one of them, and it was more along the lines of enlightening, although I'm not entirely sure how much of the benefit it gives. Here's what was discussed.
Rogues obviously backstab. They can also double and tripple backstab. He said that the amount of times they perform double/tripples is based off of how much attack they have.
I obviously didn't think much of this at first, because I figured the attack softcap came into play.
He told me it didn't. Which makes sense, because rogues would probably be trippling a lot less than I've seen, and thus wouldn't be some of the sick DPS that they are.
So now I'm really interested in rolling around the next beta. I want to see how well this holds water. I haven't seen a Rogue parse with backstab around here, so I can't really say that I was entirely accurate, but I can't say that they are either.
He was very pleasant about the whole thing, so I was inclined to believe him.
We'll see.
Quote from: Inphared on May 02, 2007, 04:59:28 AM
I had a rather long chat with one of them, and it was more along the lines of enlightening, although I'm not entirely sure how much of the benefit it gives. Here's what was discussed.
Rogues obviously backstab. They can also double and tripple backstab. He said that the amount of times they perform double/tripples is based off of how much attack they have.
I obviously didn't think much of this at first, because I figured the attack softcap came into play.
He told me it didn't. Which makes sense, because rogues would probably be trippling a lot less than I've seen, and thus wouldn't be some of the sick DPS that they are.
So now I'm really interested in rolling around the next beta. I want to see how well this holds water. I haven't seen a Rogue parse with backstab around here, so I can't really say that I was entirely accurate, but I can't say that they are either.
He was very pleasant about the whole thing, so I was inclined to believe him.
We'll see.
I am not sure what to think about that... Would be nice for fero to be really usefull to rogues but I hate this SoS crap atm, if we get all 4 rogues on a raid I feel like I spend the whole night sending tells to get em to drop SoS. :x
If Attack affects double and triple backstab would it be linear to asume it would affect double and triple attack as well, or is this a seperate skill all together? If this is the case surely monk parses would have shown a greater return for fero also?
Also the fact that you actually found a rogue that was actually polite surprises me, any contact I have had outside of my guild with rogues has been unpleasant and rude. Put him on your friends list :wink:
Rogues only get double attack, but they can tripple backstab. Stuff like their 2.0 and AA's increase this chance, and since it's backstab only, it wouldn't show up in a Monk parse. That's what got me interested in it. Like I said, I haven't seen any Rogue parses before, so maybe we're missing something.
Sort of strange for that being the only ability to act like that really. I am a bit skeptical really., but if it was true it should make a worlds of difference for them.
Though this is still a spell that needs some serious work, utility that increases one class in an effective manor, is not a useful skill make.
Simply put it still isn't worth having a beastlord on raids to fero your rogues when you can probably throw a bard or shaman to increase a whole group of DPS classes in a more effective manor. Though I am not askign for something nearly that strong, but fero should be an all encompassing increasing ability on Melee DPS.....not just effect one class.
Quote from: Sikkem on May 02, 2007, 06:47:49 AM
If this is the case surely monk parses would have shown a greater return for fero also?
Monks with Fero 5/6 are essentially at 100% double attack, so there's no upgrades possible there. iirc, they can quad mainhand attacks though...if it did boost the likelihood of that occuring, it must be miniscule or Wycca's parses would have shown better return on Fero.
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29743 is their links
As much as they knock you inphared for your parses, Nowhere, i mean nowhere do is see parses from them proving otherwise. Ironically, while bashing your parses i see them useing your numbers (i. e. 3.5%). On top of that i see the number 30 to 35 dps increase?
No disrespect, however i would like to see some parses (on the rogue forums demonstrating different) other than that we are just grabbing numbers out of the air or pointless opinions.
Upon these conditions
Full raid buff + no fero .........versus Full raid buff + fero. <-------- trust me i would like to see a huge difference and prove SoE has not let me down (again)
Quote from: Khauruk on May 02, 2007, 06:26:37 PM
Quote from: Sikkem on May 02, 2007, 06:47:49 AM
If this is the case surely monk parses would have shown a greater return for fero also?
Monks with Fero 5/6 are essentially at 100% double attack, so there's no upgrades possible there. iirc, they can quad mainhand attacks though...if it did boost the likelihood of that occuring, it must be miniscule or Wycca's parses would have shown better return on Fero.
They are talking about our spells Ferocity, which adds ATK, not DA. Worn Ferocity adds DA, not ATK.
Quote from: Spiritclaw on May 02, 2007, 09:26:58 PM
They are talking about our spells Ferocity, which adds ATK, not DA. Worn Ferocity adds DA, not ATK.
You said that if our spell Fero adds to double/triple backstab from higher attack value, and if it increases double(etc) attack in general, it should have shown higher returns from Wycca's parse.
Unless I entirely misread you...
Do you see my point now?
Monks with max AAs, and Worn Ferocity 5/6 are at ~100% double attack already, so there is no room for change in that factor of a parse.
Quote from: Khauruk on May 03, 2007, 03:47:36 AM
Quote from: Spiritclaw on May 02, 2007, 09:26:58 PM
They are talking about our spells Ferocity, which adds ATK, not DA. Worn Ferocity adds DA, not ATK.
You said that if our spell Fero adds to double/triple backstab from higher attack value, and if it increases double(etc) attack in general, it should have shown higher returns from Wycca's parse.
Unless I entirely misread you...
Do you see my point now?
Monks with max AAs, and Worn Ferocity 5/6 are at ~100% double attack already, so there is no room for change in that factor of a parse.
Some rogue was saying that higher ATK gives them a better chance at double/tripple backstab, not DA itself. This would be the only class that this buff would have any kind of impact on if true. No other class gets any kind of DA benefit from higher ATK
Quote from: Khauruk on May 03, 2007, 03:47:36 AM
Quote from: Spiritclaw on May 02, 2007, 09:26:58 PM
They are talking about our spells Ferocity, which adds ATK, not DA. Worn Ferocity adds DA, not ATK.
You said that if our spell Fero adds to double/triple backstab from higher attack value, and if it increases double(etc) attack in general, it should have shown higher returns from Wycca's parse.
Unless I entirely misread you...
Do you see my point now?
Monks with max AAs, and Worn Ferocity 5/6 are at ~100% double attack already, so there is no room for change in that factor of a parse.
Exactly why i have trouble believing that Ferocity would have a impact as high as they are stating on there dps the parses made by Wycca would be even board for all classes that double attack and flurry and special attacks.
Backstab is a special attack just like beserkers frenzy and monks special kicks and punches if this is true id like to see parses for it.
Quote from: Rilelil on May 03, 2007, 08:54:39 PM
Exactly why i have trouble believing that Ferocity would have a impact as high as they are stating on there dps the parses made by Wycca would be even board for all classes that double attack and flurry and special attacks.
Backstab is a special attack just like beserkers frenzy and monks special kicks and punches if this is true id like to see parses for it.
I don't think some of you are understanding. Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Rogues do double attack, but this is
not what they're saying is increased by Fero.
Rogues backstab. (duh)
They also have the chance to double backstab. This chance is increased by how much attack they have, and through various AA's and such. They also have the chance to tripple backstab. They can only perform a tripple BS if they perform a double BS, so therefore, the higher the attack, the more Tripples.
This is why Wyyca's parses wouldn't show anything greater, because monks obviously can't backstab. We're not talking about regular double attack, we're talking about double and tripple backstabs.
my problem is its still a special attack which is not anything more special then any of the other attacks i mentioned. All im saying is id like to see parses to back this up at the moment its just speculation and kinda odd that only one classes special attack would be increased. when there are a few classes with a special attacks none of which reciece the same level of benefit.
Quote from: InpharedThey also have the chance to double backstab. This chance is SUPPOSEDLY increased by how much attack they have, and through various AA's and such. They also have the chance to tripple backstab. They can only perform a tripple BS if they perform a double BS, so therefore, the higher the attack, SUPPOSEDLY the more Tripples
Fixed that for you. Until they can provide detailed evidence (i.e. hours of parses) that will prove this, I claim there comments are only attempts to persuade a beastlord to waste mana casting Ferocity.
I can be just like them and claim things without evidence too. I contend that this atk benefit given to double/triple backstab is affected by the same atk cap as regular melee so therefore casting Ferocity still does next to nothing.
Rilelil made my point better than I.
First I've heard about this possibility, and I've argued over Fero w/ some of the best equipped rogues in the game. I'd **LOVE** to see some parses, since they just sound like they're talking out of their butt.
I'm still on the fence about this, but I'm leaning towards the "this is true" side, partly because I really want this buff to be worth something, and partly because there's no proof to extinguish it either. I've colaborated with a guild rogue, and over the next few weeks we'll be testing this higher-attack-more-backstab theory on several burn-type mobs. (It will include me log-diving and searching for each individual backstab, which includes the misses on doubles and tripples. Ugh)
As for the special attack thing, I'm not so certain. Monks use Clawstriker's, but that's a discipline. Berserkers use volley, and that's a Discipline. Backstab is an innate ability, so it could be different. If it turns out that this is true, then I would also expect it to show up for parses on Frenzy and Flying Kick, and even regular Kick for other classes.
I'll see what I find in three weeks.
Quoteand over the next few weeks we'll be testing this higher-attack-more-backstab theory on several burn-type mobs
Logging special burn-type mobs in a raid setting won't prove anything really. The rogue will have numerous other effects taking place while burning (shaman champion, bard songs, berzerker warcry, discs, etc) as well as all the random little things that can and often do occur during these types of events.
For any parsing to accurately give us a picture if it does (or doesn't as I claim) help them with any meaningful boost to their melee it will take extensive non-raid parsing. It will have to be conducted for hours and hours without ferocity and hours and hours with ferocity to even come close to being outside the margin of error for parsing.
I applaud you for trying but parsing like that will all be in vain as we can throw dead rangers through the holes it creates.
This is part of the problem, I think.
No one on either side has even decided to test the problem. Rogues automatically claim it does, while we automatically claim it doesn't. There's no willingness to actually try and figure it out. I'm just stepping up to try and find some middle ground, when no one else has, and if that middle ground is a bit foggy, so be it. It's better than nothing.
I will definately be testing this during Beta, as that provides the optimal setting with buffs and such. But for right now, it's basically the only standard to go by. Maybe I'll limit my data to just one or two mobs. Something like Ur-Floxiz and Veldyn. But it's all we've got at this point.
(No, this isn't a flame against Urim or anyone else)
I'm not sure we actually need to do any new parsing...if somebody has time to get a series of rogue parses at various attack levels (since attack is the variable here, not something specific to Ferocity), and look through them, it should be pretty obvious if attack scales up their double/triple backstab.
edit: All with max double/triple backstab AAs, of course (I'm not sure just what rogues get for that).
As i said before, i applaud you for attempting to do parsing on this subject. However, the way in which you are planning on doing it won't be foggy ... it will be muddy. In the end, despite what your results show, the other side will have a legitimate claim against it due to the parsing manner. If your results show atk does give a boost, bsts like me will claim the parse was insufficient due to parsing mechanics and vice versa.
No reliable parse can be done on a raid. There are just too many variables that you cannot account even with the best attempts.
Best option (and only reliable one) would be to wait til beta and do EXTENSIVE parses, like overnight parses with a rogue that can put backstab on a macro or something so they don't have to sit there. Or if you have an inside line with devs, ask for you and your rogue friend to get copied to test where the parse mobs in arena are up all the time.
In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.
Quote from: Urim on May 05, 2007, 09:08:15 AM
There are just too many variables that you cannot account even with the best attempts.
This isn't going to be as in depth as you think it's going to be. I'm not measuring raw DPS numbers. I'm measuring the amount of backstabs. All that's involved is finding the rogue's attack value before the fight (when he's all buffed up), and finding out how many times he double or tripple BS'd. That's all it will be. That's all I would be looking for in a Beta test. That's what they claim, so that's what I'm testing. It's not about the raw DPS.
And, the rogue I will be using is always in the same group, so the chance for change is minimal, at best.
The test/beta dummies are certainly the best option available to us. That said, it is doable if you can get parses from all max-AA rogues with consistent attack levels throughout the parse.
Hell, just do 2 parses (3 x Fero duration each)...one at X attack, and one at X + 500ish. Or one naked and one with all worn gear. We don't care about the pure dps upgrade right now, just to prove/disprove this mechanic. If 500+ attack doesn't show a difference in double/triple backstab sizeable enough that it's distinguishable (despite the low statistical confidence of the data) w/in 3 10 minute parses, I'd call it all bupkus and say they're clueless. If it's not distinguishable, Ferocity certainly won't be worth the mana to cast on the rogues.
Quote from: Urim on May 05, 2007, 09:08:15 AM
In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.
So nobody misunderstands, attack has nothing to do w/ an attack actually landing (i.e. accuracy), but the damage amount it lands for.
No, don't waste time on a naked test. I don't think anyone would deny that Fero is useful on rogues that are below their attack caps. What we need to know is exactly how useful attack is on rogues that are already over their caps with normal gear and buffs.
Quote from: Nusa on May 05, 2007, 05:46:24 PM
No, don't waste time on a naked test. I don't think anyone would deny that Fero is useful on rogues that are below their attack caps. What we need to know is exactly how useful attack is on rogues that are already over their caps with normal gear and buffs.
Inphared is looking to prove one assertion about rogues and attack, not necessarily dps potential of Ferocity buffs.
The easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills. If there's a sizeable increase in double/triple backstab, then it's worth further parsing. If not, less time wasted.
Why do a very time consuming refined test when a couple short/simple parses should be able to give us a pretty good idea if they're talking out their but-tocks, or not?
Quote from: Khauruk
Quote from: Urim
In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.
So nobody misunderstands, attack has nothing to do w/ an attack actually landing (i.e. accuracy), but the damage amount it lands for.
Sorry, I should have put a smiley face or something at the end of that statement. I was being a bit of tongue-in-cheek in that i don't think it affects backstabs landing at all because it doesn't affect melee landing at all.
I ran some tests on myself to get a sense of what Fero does on a mid range bst.
Ran same buffless test 2 times, and a Fero rnk II test 1 time
Basically averaging my buffless samples and comparing against a 50 minute fero test, I saw an increase from 196 to 206, or 10 DPS. this is lower than the 11-12 DPS others have reported, but seems in line with normal margin of error.
One thing I noticed was a big variance in proc DPS, but note that there is a much smaller sample of 'hits' on proc, versus melee hits. Backstab samples would also be much smaller, so Rogues would have to run some enormously long samples to see what effect Fero has on Backstab rates.
Parse info below.
------------------------------------------------------------
5/6/07
Exterminator Sutton Parses:
1.a 25 minutes, No buffs. ATK - 1852:
Total DPS - 218
Proc DPS - 16.5 (11.5 base + 5 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS - 3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out. AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 2706
Proc hits - 211
Baseline Melee DPS 218 - 16.5 - 3 = 198.5
1.b 25 minutes, No buffs. ATK - 1852: (This is retest of No buff test above)
Total DPS - 218.5
Proc DPS - 22.3 (14.5 base + 8 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS - 3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out. AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 1955
Proc hits - 160
Baseline Melee DPS 218 - 16.5 - 3 = 193.5
2. 50 minutes, Ruthless Ferocity Rnk II, ATK - 2166:
Total DPS - 230
Proc DPS - 21 (15 base + 5.5 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS - 3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out. AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 4385
Proc hits - 432
Baseline Melee DPS 230 - 21 - 3 = 206
Personal Stats for reference:
1129 AA's
Defensive:
Dodge III
Avoidence - 40
Shileding - 5
Offensive:
Fero II
Cleave V
Accuracy - 6
Strikethrough - 15
Combat Effects - 3
Primary:
Soulskyve - 21 Delay/26 Damage, Piercer
Life Sap III
Life Sap II
Secondary:
Epic 1.5 - 22 Delay/26 Damage, 1hB
Life Sap I
Vampire Kiss
if you actually dig around the EQ live boards, wycca posted a great parse about fero and its affects *note* this is with the current fero, and if I remember correctly it was only like a 10-13 dps increase total
Quote from: Humlaine on May 07, 2007, 06:05:13 AM
if you actually dig around the EQ live boards, wycca posted a great parse about fero and its affects *note* this is with the current fero, and if I remember correctly it was only like a 10-13 dps increase total
TSS Beta boards, tho
Bumkus-That looks about right because you are below the attk softcap when unbuffed, this is the area in which fero gives the most return. Once above the softcap it has rapidly diminishing returns. Tastian parsed our softcap at 2k, rangers/monks parsed theirs it at 2.2k. Do the same parse but snag a ranger to buff your attk first then slap a fero on top of that and see what happens.
QuoteThe easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills.
Just as long as you don't change their worn ferocity.
Quote from: Chasom on May 07, 2007, 10:44:35 PM
QuoteThe easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills.
Just as long as you don't change their worn ferocity.
Hmm...does worn Ferocity affect double/triple backstab rates? I honestly have no clue..I want to say it likely doesn't, but wouldn't lay money on it.
I don't think Ferocity would affect it ... but worn +Accuracy probably would.
Quote from: Urim on May 08, 2007, 04:19:26 AM
I don't think Ferocity would affect it ... but worn +Accuracy probably would.
That should affect how often it connects w/ the mob, but not how often a PC succeeds on teh skill checks for a double/triple BS.
The best way to avoid testing more than one "should" at a time is to only change the aspect you're testing. Naked versus non-naked results means that any non-equal results are not proven to be the result of the fero buff.
Quote from: Nusa on May 08, 2007, 06:01:15 AM
The best way to avoid testing more than one "should" at a time is to only change the aspect you're testing. Naked versus non-naked results means that any non-equal results are not proven to be the result of the fero buff.
A - we're not testing the Ferocity buff itself, but the impact of Attack values on Double/Triple Backstab.
B - Naked vs. Fully buffed, gear, etc,.... is the best way to conduct this test due to the very large disparity in attack rating it will create. Create the most widely varied conditions for parse A vs. parse B, and you'll be able to grade the rogue community assertion Pass/Fail with ease and little time spent to deal w/ the issue.
C - If nobody can say definitively that worn Ferocity effects affect/do not affect double/triple BS, it's easy enough to wear just that piece of armor. Or, not wear it on the buffed parse. All other mods are irrelevant (accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).
D - Smurf do I wish my smurfing computer was working so I could do more than just haunt forums.
Last beta i did a few 6 hour parces on fero self buffed my self and on a beta buffed monk and came out with the same numbers as wycca, next beta i plan on doing them agean just because of people like those rogues not understanding just how little attack gains at that level of play. That being said the only place that you might see a little bit more of a gain is in soltaris where the raid mobs have a higher ac base then normal mobs but even still it would be small. But like shamno said if any of you rogues have any kind of data to back what you seem to think about what we as a beastlord community have proven over the last year+ about the attack gains i invite you to please show that info here so we may have a civil discussion about it.
Quote from: Khauruk on May 08, 2007, 06:41:53 AM
A - we're not testing the Ferocity buff itself, but the impact of Attack values on Double/Triple Backstab.
You're testing everything that's different between the two cases. The very definition of scientific process. However, when I say "Ferocity buff", you can read "buffs that improve attack" if that makes you happier.
Quote
B - Naked vs. Fully buffed, gear, etc,.... is the best way to conduct this test due to the very large disparity in attack rating it will create. Create the most widely varied conditions for parse A vs. parse B, and you'll be able to grade the rogue community assertion Pass/Fail with ease and little time spent to deal w/ the issue.
I disagree completely. The test I want to see is attack-over-cap vs larger-attack-over-cap (the real-world-case we care about). It may very well be that that test has completely different results than attack-way-under-cap vs attack-over-cap (a made-up-case that doesnt matter to me at my level of play, REGARDLESS of the result).
Quote
C - If nobody can say definitively that worn Ferocity effects affect/do not affect double/triple BS, it's easy enough to wear just that piece of armor. Or, not wear it on the buffed parse. All other mods are irrelevant (accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).
No, that's my biggest point! You're ASSUMING all those other factors are irrelevant. What if any one of those actually is a factor? Changing multiple factors that don't have to be changed voids the scientific process. You can't perform such a test and then point at attack as the only possible cause of the change.
Quote
D - Smurf do I wish my smurfing computer was working so I could do more than just haunt forums.
Good luck with that.
Quote from: Nusa on May 08, 2007, 06:58:34 PM
Quote from: Khauruk on May 08, 2007, 06:41:53 AM
QuoteI disagree completely. The test I want to see is attack-over-cap vs larger-attack-over-cap (the real-world-case we care about). It may very well be that that test has completely different results than attack-way-under-cap vs attack-over-cap (a made-up-case that doesnt matter to me at my level of play, REGARDLESS of the result).
Quote
(accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).
No, that's my biggest point! You're ASSUMING all those other factors are irrelevant. What if any one of those actually is a factor? Changing multiple factors that don't have to be changed voids the scientific process. You can't perform such a test and then point at attack as the only possible cause of the change.
1 - The made-up case is simply to see if there is *any* difference. The answer we're looking for is black vs. white, so I'd argue a black vs. white parse works best. The greatest disparity in attack levels we can create makes for a more convincing, shorter parse. If there isn't a huge difference in double/triple backstab with more than 1k attack difference, it's not worth anybody's time to parse at other attack levels (other than for curiosity's sake), since the gain from attack for d/t bs won't be enough to make attack buffs worthwhile.
2 - easy for somebody to run a third parse at 2.3kish attack, but it'll take more parsing to have any level of confidence between 2.3k - 2.8kish (I'm guessing over 3k is possible, but short-term only iirc...I haven't been at that level of raiding).
3 - We KNOW (!) the mechanics behind + special attack mods, and what they don't do (increase frequency of special attacks). We KNOW what accuracy does, and how it doesn't increase special attack frequency. We KNOW what cleave does, and how it doesn't increase special attack frequency. We KNOW that if you don't change weapons between the parses, weapons won't change special attack frequency. (There are many unknown values on the raw data for weapons, but I would be more shocked than shocked if any of them change special attack frequency. I also believe this would have been noticed a *long* time ago, and you would have certain weapons daggers parsing much higher than their dmg/dly ratio would lend to...this would be rapidly disseminated among the community. A similar example would be procrate mods which were identified back in Luclin. It doesn't make sense for devs to implement this. It would be obvious if it existed. I'll readily go so far as to say "It doesn't exist".)
I know NOTHING when it comes to the backstab ability. I've never tested it. I've never seen any tests on it. For all I know ability X has as much affect or as little effect as attack. The only result of such a test that has scientific meaning would be a negative result, meaning ALL of those things put together have no effect. Any difference at all means you haven't established what you set out to do...attack may have influence, but you haven't proved it wasn't something else, like worn haste.
As far as what we "KNOW", I say we KNOW how attack works as well as we KNOW how all those abilities work. But some rogues say that backstab doesn't follow the rules, so that means ALL the rules are subject to question, not just one specific one. If it's got special coding, general assumptions don't apply.
In any case, it's not up to me or you, it's up to the people that decide to spend their time running the tests. (I don't have access to a suitable rogue, so I can't.) I will, however, shoot at any questionable conclusions drawn from nonscientific methods.
I don't see how parsing a naked toon then parsing a fully equipped toon will give the answers everybody is looking for. In all actaullity, should be normal toon vs buffed toon. That way they can show what a normal double/tripple BS ratio is, then see if a whopping 67 (or similar number) atk is worth the mana and effort to keep up on a rogue. We aren't looking for the double/triple BS of a naked toon (have yet to see a naked toon in group, much less raid) trying to kill a mob. If a toon is not at softcap, then it it would help, past that it doesn't help as much.
Quote from: Grbage on May 07, 2007, 03:01:34 PM
Bumkus-That looks about right because you are below the attk softcap when unbuffed, this is the area in which fero gives the most return. Once above the softcap it has rapidly diminishing returns. Tastian parsed our softcap at 2k, rangers/monks parsed theirs it at 2.2k. Do the same parse but snag a ranger to buff your attk first then slap a fero on top of that and see what happens.
Gbrage, I'v thought abour how my parse compared to the original post.
My DPS is about 1/2 the DPS of the original post, so my gains in terms of raw DPS should be less.
My unbuffed Atk only hits the softcap with using Fero, so my gains in terms of raw DPS should be higher.
My Accuracy is pretty low, which will keep the gains from Fero down, because +ATK only affects how much damage, not accuracy.
I could probably run more tests and longer tests to nail down a more accurate number, but really we are just splitting hairs.
A single shot of Bite of Empress II with even 15% from focus does about 3K, non-crit, which is 10 DPS over 5 minutes and costs less mana than Ruthless Ferocity II.
So basically, if I have time to med back up after casting, and if a plalyer has an open buff slot (less likely in raids nowadays.) then I will cast it. Otherwise I will save the mana for more direct forms of damage.
Or maybe I'll just put it on the Bear. Doubt that Bear hits the ATK softcap. (hmmm. maybe I should actually parse this.)
Why argue when we can ask a dev?
From Rashere:
There is **NO** affect on double/triple backstabs from attack. There is no buff in game that affects double/triple backstab rates.
Also, expect much higher NPC AC levels in the next expansion, to make attack buffs worthwhile again.
He wouldn't answer me about increasing NPC AC levels in current expansions though...probably too big a job.
So, I was right :p
No parses needed, and feel free to tell whatever rogues were espousing this junk that they're silly ninnies. :)
He said double/triple backstabs are set at a specific rate of landed backstabs, so accuracy presumably will help those, but won't change the %ages at all.
Nice this is nice info to have and can be shared with those that dont believe it.
Silly rogues. They think that just cuz it boosts their personal dps, Ferocity is worth casting.
Rogue here :-) Sorry your parses were met with such hostility, let me assure you all rogues are not rude and mean and silly! Hope its not taboo to post something here. I believe the questioning came about from the parse mob being old world, too low level and probably low AC, in which case you really would expect to see no benefit on any amount of attack because your unbuffed attack would probably be way above what their AC could show differences on anyway.
First off, not sure I'd be the best rogue to have this conversation with, however Im an avid parser so I look at the numbers all the time and this topic interests me greatly and I'd also be very willing to help out in parses if we could figure out a good way to attempt it without having to wait for beta (6 months or so down the road). Im trying to collect some data currently on targets we do reguarly, but only started very recently so not enough to offer up yet and honestly Im sure the parses would be torn apart anyway.
Why would someone think the Beastlord spell Ferocity increased our triple attack?
My guess is the rogue talking about higher attack increasing the chance of a triple backstab landing was probably just confused or didnt understand, as this place is the first time Ive ever read such a thing (it certainly is not posted on the rogue site anywhere). Anyway, he probably had Worn Ferocity confused with the beastlord spell Ferocity, and the reason I say this is because Worn Ferocity does increase the chance of a double attack and according to the desciription on triple backstab:
Each rank in this ability grants the rogue an increasing chance to attempt an additional backstab after a successful double backstab.
So you can see that, anything that could increase a double backstab, could give us an additional attempt at a triple backstab. Spells Ive never parsed (like the ranger Predator line that boosts double attack - I wont argue what Rashere said, but I'd prefer to see it myself in a parse - the lucy descriptions on worn ferocity and beastlord ferocity read the same with regards to increasing double attack), but Ive done extensive parsing on Worn Ferocity and it does indeed increase our rate of double and triple backstabs (these are each 6 hour long parses):
No Ferocity
slash: 21% single, 78% double
pierce: 22% single, 78% double
backstab: 22% single, 54% double, 23% triple
Ferocity III
slash: 17% single, 83% double
pierce: 17% single, 83% double
backstab: 17% single, 58% double, 24% triple
Ferocity V
slash: 13% single, 87% double
pierce: 13% single, 87% double
backstab: 12% single, 62% double, 27% triple
I realize that Ferocity, the spell doesnt add any kind of benefit to double attacks, this is just my reasoning behind why someone might have thought such a thing. I know Ferocity offers an attack bonus which in turn raises the damage done through more max hits and the resist bonuses, Im also familar with decreasing benefits from passing soft caps.
How rogues feel
Now, with that said, rogues are very close dps these days to multiple classes, mainly monks, berserkers and wizards (and who knows about necros). In most cases we feel like our only valuable raid and group roles are dps and that we dont offer much more so we are VERY protective of our dps status which is constantly threatened, we take any and everything that can possibly boost that and keep us there. So call it a selfish and insecure thing maybe. If you've played a long time, you know that nothing is a huge boost to dps, everything is miniscule, but in the end, it all adds up and can be impressive (provided you are not making huge leaps in gear).
Observations
Dont beat me with a stick, I realize that what Im about to say is all 'visual observation' and certainly I do not claim it as fact, its more a feeling that Ferocity helps me maintain my high dps. I dont have any parses that focus solely on Ferocity and Im not here to claim that we, as rogues should be given ferocity or even need it, just that for the most part we like it and want it.
Like I stated earlier, Im willing to work with anyone on parses if we can come up with a good way to do it. Right now, Im just focusing on certain mobs and parsing when I do and dont have it for comparison - and yes, I realize this isnt the best way, but its kinda the only way I have available right now. My name is Snowblindx on the Seventh Hammer server. I have all AA's and maxed all mods like accuracy and attack, can easily surpass 3k attack with a bard. So Im actually very interested in seeing how much a dps boost Ferocity offers.
In my old guild (I just server xferred because my guild stopped raiding), I was reguarly given Beastlord Ferocity on major targets, most of the time without asking after they got used to me asking. I found that when I didnt have every possible buff under the sun (including Ferocity), I was reguarly challenged and beatin on top dps by the already mentioned classes, but when I did have them, I was probably going to win, unless they were using the 7th vet aa. We were in North Ashengate.
Now Im in a new guild, and the beastlords are very protective of their Ferocity (they all pretty much are of the opinion that Ferocity is a waste and its hard to get them to cast it). Here, I typically parse near the bottom half of the top 10. I certainly dont attribute my drop in position to just not getting Ferocity. There are a multitude of differences in the guild, including my new guild being ahead in progression, completed TSS, so there are some nicer weapons available to those that typically parse better than me.
Conclusion
My main, years ago was a shaman, so I fully understand where you are coming from on casting 'useless' buffs, especially ones that are so short lived and with a long refresh time (admittedly part of the reason he's not my main anymore - being the only shaman on raids sucked). It would be great to get to the bottom of things and possibly get an upgrade to the spell along the lines of something like the Champion buff.
While you do not have extensive parsers about the benefits of Ferocity, the beastlord community as well as Wycca from the monk community have done pretty long parses. These parses have shown the increase of dps on a 100% uptime melee is around the range of 10-20dps depending on a wide variety of things.
In comparison, for less mana a beastlord can cast one spell and if it crits is roughly the same dps increase as Ferocity is for the average 8 minutes that a beastlords Ferocity will last. ONE SPELL WITH CRIT = 8 minutes of Ferocity but less mana!
I personally would much rather load another nuke in that spot than waste time casting Ferocity. That's not to say I wouldn't cast it if it were useful. I WISH it were useful, it might actually make me beneficial to a raid instead of just filling a spot. The Beastlord community has pleaded with the various spell devs over the years trying to get this spell line fixed with absolutely no result.
My suggestion to you, and any other classes out there that would like us to cast this on you, would be to go to the spell devs and ask them to fix it. The more people complaining about this useless buff, the greater the chance they will do something with it. As more and more beastlords realize what many of us have known for years, the chances of you getting this cast on you will become extremely low and will probably depend on great deal on how clueless the beastlord is and how well you cyborz! :-D
Higher AC value on mobs will increase the possibility of the use of fero.
It will probably have a lot to content with though.
Additional ranks with attack cap increase will come into play....if there is any.
How much AC is needed to see an reasonable return for fero?...will it be to much or to little.
Higher AC on mobs good for fero....bad for pet scaling, which is also another problem our class faces. As some might not care, but I think this is just throwing one part of our class further down the whole for a possible glimpse of getting one of our utilities somewhat working.
To me I think this is a pretty bad band aid fix.
I personally use it on a regular basis, however I'm not at the softcap. Once I can get Katta ally armor, I would probably break softcap with SV alone.
Shamno is talking about what Im interested in, 2-5 times/night on boss type mobs, higher ac, higher level, end game content, which really just makes parsing and seeing results, keeping all equipment and buffs consistent, etc., more difficult. I dont want it for trash or anything equal level or below.
Increasing AC on mobs is terrible plan to make Ferocity more useful. I hope that is not the route SoE is going to take. Just paste more AC onto mobs and leave it as the crappy do-nothing buff it is and claim its now better.
Two 30 minute parses on Bear with/without Fero. Not very long test, but i expected a bigger impact.
Bear with self buffs:
Infusion of Spirit
Spiritual Vim Rank II
Unparalled Voracity Rank II
Spirit of Lairn Rank II
Minion of Eternity Focus
30 Minute:
Pet Melee DPS - 175
Pet Lairn Proc DPS - 35
>>Total Pet DPS - 210
Same buffs + Ruthless Ferocity Rank II
30 Minute:
Pet Melee DPS - 177
Pet Lairn Proc DPS - 36.5
>>Total Pet DPS - 213.5
Quote from: Bumkus on May 12, 2007, 10:37:55 PM
Two 30 minute parses on Bear with/without Fero. Not very long test, but i expected a bigger impact.
A - iirc (somebody please(!) correct me if wrong....our pets are summoned with our stats. That may be total crap, but that's what I recall reading somewhere/when. If so, our pets will have reasonable attack from naturally high STR.
B - TSS Pet haste has +106 attack (rank 2) already.
C - what was your target?
A - Summoned pets take the owners resists as I understand it, if they're higher than the pets natural resists. I've not heard anything about other stats.
B - Yup, but it's not something that's different between the two parses. SV has +attack as well, if you're counting.
Quote from: Nusa on May 13, 2007, 06:38:16 AM
B - Yup, but it's not something that's different between the two parses. SV has +attack as well, if you're counting.
I should have expounded....with +atk on both SV and our pet haste, our pets are likely at/near the 2k+ attack. Hence, the low gains from Ferocity that Bumkus saw.
Focused pets may also have an increased attack along with the higher max hit....I have never heard anything yea/nay about that.
Sorry. Should have mentioned that Target was Exterminator Sutton again. I kinda hate using him, because his AC is probably a bit low. But he has enough HP while doing low damage to me that I can collect data while afk'ing.
Quote from: Bumkus on May 14, 2007, 01:28:04 AM
Sorry. Should have mentioned that Target was Exterminator Sutton again. I kinda hate using him, because his AC is probably a bit low. But he has enough HP while doing low damage to me that I can collect data while afk'ing.
Aye, AC will be low due to his level, but level differences also act like increased attack rating - more max hits/higher hits. Oh well...we're not on Test so we work with what we have.
Wyccas parse has been talked about a bit so I chased it down and am posting it here for reference.
Sorry its jumbled have bolded the dps figues for ease.
Quote
I realized I gained some attack from the level boost, and since the parse wasn't fluctuating majorly (and a 0.5dps fluctuation wouldn't change the results of the parse much), I decided to not go above the 5hr parse I have of fero.
Sorry for the formatting size, but I don't know how to shrink it.
Parse results officially-
Ferocity = 11.7dps boost (it needs major help, more than simply more attack)
Lvl 71 (no skill changes from 70 though, merely the 5 cap raise on stats)- 150accuracy, 75 combat effects, 300worn attack (i use tribute to hit it fyi), etc etc maxed, my gear is in my sig.
Buffs - Fist of Wu, Cry Havoc, Thieve's Eyes, Ancient : Call of Power, War March of the Muram, Storm Blade, Symphony of Battle, Strength of the Hunter, Howl of the Predator, Talisman of Wunshi, Champion, Talisman of Might, Spirit of Bih'Li, Hastening of Salik, Spirit of the Panther, Ferocity of Ironu, the bard buffs are maxed with appropriate drum/etc, AA, and puretone just fyi via lvl 70 betabuff.
Parse #1 - No fero
Offensive Damage for Wycca, by Type
Damage By Kills Total Duration DPS ADPS AD Max Avg Min Accuracy Evasion Defense Hits Misses Blocks Dodges Magic Parries Ripostes
[ Total ] 0 16529620 05:15:12 874.03 874.03 10 800 241.51 6 74.27% 0.00% 0.00% 68442 23716 0 0 0 0 0
Critical Magic 0 200464 05:14:28 10.62 10.60 257 800 270.53 100 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 741 0 0 0 0 0 0
Critical Punch 0 3816366 05:15:11 201.81 201.80 29 735 482.17 104 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 7915 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magic 0 2020527 05:15:08 106.86 106.84 27 800 248.50 6 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 8131 0 0 0 0 0 0
Punch 0 10492263 05:15:12 554.79 554.79 10 735 203.12 25 68.53% 0.00% 0.00% 51655 23716 0 0 0 0 0
Damage report by YALP using a DPS run interval of 600
Parse #2 - With Fero
Offensive Damage for Wycca, by Type
Damage By Kills Total Duration DPS ADPS AD Max Avg Min Accuracy Evasion Defense Hits Misses Blocks Dodges Magic Parries Ripostes
[ Total ] 0 44189972 13:51:28 885.78 885.78 10 800 245.56 3 74.00% 0.00% 0.00% 179954 63212 0 0 0 0 0
Critical Magic 0 501588 13:50:46 10.06 10.05 263 800 263.44 4 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 1904 0 0 0 0 0 0
Critical Punch 0 10081922 13:51:23 202.11 202.09 29 735 490.51 104 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 20554 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magic 0 5357066 13:51:27 107.38 107.38 26 800 247.54 3 100.00% 0.00% 0.00% 21641 0 0 0 0 0 0
Punch 0 28249396 13:51:28 566.26 566.26 10 735 207.94 29 68.25% 0.00% 0.00% 135855 63212 0 0 0 0 0
Damage report by YALP using a DPS run interval of 600
Wycca - 75 Monk - Triality - Vazaelle
Thanks! Great to have.
A 30 minute parse is going to be inaccurate, so really shouldnt read much into it.
Wycca's parse shows one area of damage actually went down because of Fero, not by much 0.5dps but it did.
Quote from: jitathab on May 14, 2007, 12:36:30 PM
A 30 minute parse is going to be inaccurate, so really shouldnt read much into it.
Wycca's parse shows one area of damage actually went down because of Fero, not by much 0.5dps but it did.
You're right that 30 minute is not enough to measure an accurate gain, but it should at least show whether there IS a gain. The problem with Fero is that the gains fall inside the noise margin for relatively short parses. Yet it is a short duration buff so we should expect a more signifigant short term gain.
Panther show pretty immediate gains, even in short parses. I would expect the gains from Wunshi (or similar) to be smaller, but those are long term buffs, not burst buffs like Fero. Remember, with the long refresh timer, we can only keep Fero on 3 people at any one time. We aren't even loading a whole group up on it.
Where are you Snowblind? I'm not protective of the Ferocity spell, so we should get a few parses done
Lenoth Erazor
75bl
7th hammer
attack only effects how much you hit for!
no effects on accuracy, crit hit rate, double, tripple, or flurry amounts...
those numbers are tied up by skills, skill mods (like ferocity worn effect)..
attack purely raises how much you hit for.
attack increases how often your hits will be for max damage. Theoretically, max attack will cause you to hit for max damage all the time. You will still miss part of the time.
And what is up with rogues thinking they know what's the best way for us to use our mana? We tell them it's not mana efficient to cast fero on them, and they say do it anyway, my minisucule e-peen needs all the help it can get.
Simple solution for me. If someone asks for Fero they now get told to F&^%ck off. Not only is fero a mana hog, but the new Bite poison nuke is rough on mana. So I say grow a back bone (please don't take that as an insult) and tell em where to stick there requests, course my guild runs that way. If you are in a very prim and proper guild, do the best you can to explain, and if they still want tell em it is not memmed.
Oh and to Swamp. Thanks for all the support, but when one of the zerkers in my guild ADMITS he uses fero more for the resists, he no longer gets.