Recent Fero Parses

[Urim]

I don't think Ferocity would affect it ... but worn +Accuracy probably would.

[Khauruk]

I don't think Ferocity would affect it ... but worn +Accuracy probably would.

That should affect how often it connects w/ the mob, but not how often a PC succeeds on teh skill checks for a double/triple BS.

[Nusa]

The best way to avoid testing more than one "should" at a time is to only change the aspect you're testing. Naked versus non-naked results means that any non-equal results are not proven to be the result of the fero buff.

[Khauruk]

The best way to avoid testing more than one "should" at a time is to only change the aspect you're testing. Naked versus non-naked results means that any non-equal results are not proven to be the result of the fero buff.

A - we're not testing the Ferocity buff itself, but the impact of Attack values on Double/Triple Backstab.

B - Naked vs. Fully buffed, gear, etc,.... is the best way to conduct this test due to the very large disparity in attack rating it will create.  Create the most widely varied conditions for parse A vs. parse B, and you'll be able to grade the rogue community assertion Pass/Fail with ease and little time spent to deal w/ the issue.

C - If nobody can say definitively that worn Ferocity effects affect/do not affect double/triple BS, it's easy enough to wear just that piece of armor.  Or, not wear it on the buffed parse.  All other mods are irrelevant (accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).

D - Smurf do I wish my smurfing computer was working so I could do more than just haunt forums.

[recoil silverclaws]

Last beta i did a few 6 hour parces on fero self buffed my self and on a beta buffed monk and came out with the same numbers as wycca, next beta i plan on doing them agean just because of people like those rogues not understanding just how little attack gains at that level of play. That being said the only place that you might see a little bit more of a gain is in soltaris where the raid mobs have a higher ac base then normal mobs but even still it would be small. But like shamno said if any of you rogues have any kind of data to back what you seem to think about what we as a beastlord community have proven over the last year+ about the attack gains i invite you to please show that info here so we may have a civil discussion about it.

[Nusa]

A - we're not testing the Ferocity buff itself, but the impact of Attack values on Double/Triple Backstab.

You're testing everything that's different between the two cases. The very definition of scientific process. However, when I say "Ferocity buff", you can read "buffs that improve attack" if that makes you happier.

B - Naked vs. Fully buffed, gear, etc,.... is the best way to conduct this test due to the very large disparity in attack rating it will create.  Create the most widely varied conditions for parse A vs. parse B, and you'll be able to grade the rogue community assertion Pass/Fail with ease and little time spent to deal w/ the issue.

I disagree completely. The test I want to see is attack-over-cap vs larger-attack-over-cap (the real-world-case we care about). It may very well be that that test has completely different results than attack-way-under-cap vs attack-over-cap (a made-up-case that doesnt matter to me at my level of play, REGARDLESS of the result).

C - If nobody can say definitively that worn Ferocity effects affect/do not affect double/triple BS, it's easy enough to wear just that piece of armor.  Or, not wear it on the buffed parse.  All other mods are irrelevant (accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).

No, that's my biggest point! You're ASSUMING all those other factors are irrelevant. What if any one of those actually is a factor? Changing multiple factors that don't have to be changed voids the scientific process. You can't perform such a test and then point at attack as the only possible cause of the change.

D - Smurf do I wish my smurfing computer was working so I could do more than just haunt forums.

Good luck with that.

[Khauruk]

I disagree completely. The test I want to see is attack-over-cap vs larger-attack-over-cap (the real-world-case we care about). It may very well be that that test has completely different results than attack-way-under-cap vs attack-over-cap (a made-up-case that doesnt matter to me at my level of play, REGARDLESS of the result).

(accuracy, +BS damage, weapons, cleave, any that I'm omitting).

No, that's my biggest point! You're ASSUMING all those other factors are irrelevant. What if any one of those actually is a factor? Changing multiple factors that don't have to be changed voids the scientific process. You can't perform such a test and then point at attack as the only possible cause of the change.

1 - The made-up case is simply to see if there is *any* difference.  The answer we're looking for is black vs. white, so I'd argue a black vs. white parse works best.  The greatest disparity in attack levels we can create makes for a more convincing, shorter parse.  If there isn't a huge difference in double/triple backstab with more than 1k attack difference, it's not worth anybody's time to parse at other attack levels (other than for curiosity's sake), since the gain from attack for d/t bs won't be enough to make attack buffs worthwhile.

2 - easy for somebody to run a third parse at 2.3kish attack, but it'll take more parsing to have any level of confidence between 2.3k - 2.8kish (I'm guessing over 3k is possible, but short-term only iirc...I haven't been at that level of raiding).

3 - We KNOW (!) the mechanics behind + special attack mods, and what they don't do (increase frequency of special attacks).  We KNOW what accuracy does, and how it doesn't increase special attack frequency.  We KNOW what cleave does, and how it doesn't increase special attack frequency.  We KNOW that if you don't change weapons between the parses, weapons won't change special attack frequency.  (There are many unknown values on the raw data for weapons, but I would be more shocked than shocked if any of them change special attack frequency.  I also believe this would have been noticed a *long* time ago, and you would have certain weapons daggers parsing much higher than their dmg/dly ratio would lend to...this would be rapidly disseminated among the community.   A similar example would be procrate mods which were identified back in Luclin.  It doesn't make sense for devs to implement this.  It would be obvious if it existed.  I'll readily go so far as to say "It doesn't exist".)

[Nusa]

I know NOTHING when it comes to the backstab ability. I've never tested it. I've never seen any tests on it. For all I know ability X has as much affect or as little effect as attack. The only result of such a test that has scientific meaning would be a negative result, meaning ALL of those things put together have no effect. Any difference at all means you haven't established what you set out to do...attack may have influence, but you haven't proved it wasn't something else, like worn haste.

As far as what we "KNOW", I say we KNOW how attack works as well as we KNOW how all those abilities work. But some rogues say that backstab doesn't follow the rules, so that means ALL the rules are subject to question, not just one specific one. If it's got special coding, general assumptions don't apply.

In any case, it's not up to me or you, it's up to the people that decide to spend their time running the tests. (I don't have access to a suitable rogue, so I can't.) I will, however, shoot at any questionable conclusions drawn from nonscientific methods.

[Spiritclaw]

I don't see how parsing a naked toon then parsing a fully equipped toon will give the answers everybody is looking for.  In all actaullity, should be normal toon vs buffed toon.  That way they can show what a normal double/tripple BS ratio is, then see if a whopping 67 (or similar number) atk is worth the mana and effort to keep up on a rogue.  We aren't looking for the double/triple BS of a naked toon (have yet to see a naked toon in group, much less raid) trying to kill a mob.  If a toon is not at softcap, then it it would help, past that it doesn't help as much.

[Bumkus]

Bumkus-That looks about right because you are below the attk softcap when unbuffed, this is the area in which fero gives the most return. Once above the softcap it has rapidly diminishing returns. Tastian parsed our softcap at 2k, rangers/monks parsed theirs it at 2.2k. Do the same parse but snag a ranger to buff your attk first then slap a fero on top of that and see what happens.

Gbrage, I'v thought abour how my parse compared to the original post.

My DPS is about 1/2 the DPS of the original post, so my gains in terms of raw DPS should be less.

My unbuffed Atk only hits the softcap with using Fero, so my gains in terms of raw DPS should be higher.

My Accuracy is pretty low, which will keep the gains from Fero down, because +ATK only affects how much damage, not accuracy.

I could probably run more tests and longer tests to nail down a more accurate number, but really we are just splitting hairs.

A single shot of Bite of Empress II with even 15% from focus does about 3K, non-crit, which is 10 DPS over 5 minutes and costs less mana than Ruthless Ferocity II.

So basically, if I have time to med back up after casting, and if a plalyer has an open buff slot (less likely in raids nowadays.) then I will cast it.  Otherwise I will save the mana for more direct forms of damage.

Or maybe I'll just put it on the Bear.  Doubt that Bear hits the ATK softcap.  (hmmm.  maybe I should actually parse this.)

[Khauruk]

Why argue when we can ask a dev?

From Rashere:

There is **NO** affect on double/triple backstabs from attack.  There is no buff in game that affects double/triple backstab rates.

Also, expect much higher NPC AC levels in the next expansion, to make attack buffs worthwhile again.

He wouldn't answer me about increasing NPC AC levels in current expansions though...probably too big a job.


So, I was right :p

No parses needed, and feel free to tell whatever rogues were espousing this junk that they're silly ninnies. :)

He said double/triple backstabs are set at a specific rate of landed backstabs, so accuracy presumably will help those, but won't change the %ages at all.

[Rilelil]

Nice this is nice info to have and can be shared with those that dont believe it.

[hokarz]

Silly rogues. They think that just cuz it boosts their personal dps, Ferocity is worth casting.

[Snowblind]

Rogue here  :-)  Sorry your parses were met with such hostility, let me assure you all rogues are not rude and mean and silly!  Hope its not taboo to post something here.  I believe the questioning came about from the parse mob being old world, too low level and probably low AC, in which case you really would expect to see no benefit on any amount of attack because your unbuffed attack would probably be way above what their AC could show differences on anyway.

First off, not sure I'd be the best rogue to have this conversation with, however Im an avid parser so I look at the numbers all the time and this topic interests me greatly and I'd also be very willing to help out in parses if we could figure out a good way to attempt it without having to wait for beta (6 months or so down the road).  Im trying to collect some data currently on targets we do reguarly, but only started very recently so not enough to offer up yet and honestly Im sure the parses would be torn apart anyway.

Why would someone think the Beastlord spell Ferocity increased our triple attack?
My guess is the rogue talking about higher attack increasing the chance of a triple backstab landing was probably just confused or didnt understand, as this place is the first time Ive ever read such a thing (it certainly is not posted on the rogue site anywhere).  Anyway, he probably had Worn Ferocity confused with the beastlord spell Ferocity, and the reason I say this is because Worn Ferocity does increase the chance of a double attack and according to the desciription on triple backstab:

Each rank in this ability grants the rogue an increasing chance to attempt an additional backstab after a successful double backstab.

So you can see that, anything that could increase a double backstab, could give us an additional attempt at a triple backstab.  Spells Ive never parsed (like the ranger Predator line that boosts double attack - I wont argue what Rashere said, but I'd prefer to see it myself in a parse - the lucy descriptions on worn ferocity and beastlord ferocity read the same with regards to increasing double attack), but Ive done extensive parsing on Worn Ferocity and it does indeed increase our rate of double and triple backstabs (these are each 6 hour long parses):

No Ferocity
slash: 21% single, 78% double
pierce: 22% single, 78% double
backstab: 22% single, 54% double, 23% triple
Ferocity III
slash: 17% single, 83% double
pierce: 17% single, 83% double
backstab: 17% single, 58% double, 24% triple
Ferocity V
slash: 13% single, 87% double
pierce: 13% single, 87% double
backstab: 12% single, 62% double, 27% triple

I realize that Ferocity, the spell doesnt add any kind of benefit to double attacks, this is just my reasoning behind why someone might have thought such a thing.  I know Ferocity offers an attack bonus which in turn raises the damage done through more max hits and the resist bonuses, Im also familar with decreasing benefits from passing soft caps.

How rogues feel
Now, with that said, rogues are very close dps these days to multiple classes, mainly monks, berserkers and wizards (and who knows about necros).  In most cases we feel like our only valuable raid and group roles are dps and that we dont offer much more so we are VERY protective of our dps status which is constantly threatened, we take any and everything that can possibly boost that and keep us there.  So call it a selfish and insecure thing maybe.  If you've played a long time, you know that nothing is a huge boost to dps, everything is miniscule, but in the end, it all adds up and can be impressive (provided you are not making huge leaps in gear).

Observations
Dont beat me with a stick, I realize that what Im about to say is all 'visual observation' and certainly I do not claim it as fact, its more a feeling that Ferocity helps me maintain my high dps.  I dont have any parses that focus solely on Ferocity and Im not here to claim that we, as rogues should be given ferocity or even need it, just that for the most part we like it and want it.

Like I stated earlier, Im willing to work with anyone on parses if we can come up with a good way to do it.  Right now, Im just focusing on certain mobs and parsing when I do and dont have it for comparison - and yes, I realize this isnt the best way, but its kinda the only way I have available right now.  My name is Snowblindx on the Seventh Hammer server.  I have all AA's and maxed all mods like accuracy and attack, can easily surpass 3k attack with a bard.  So Im actually very interested in seeing how much a dps boost Ferocity offers.

In my old guild (I just server xferred because my guild stopped raiding), I was reguarly given Beastlord Ferocity on major targets, most of the time without asking after they got used to me asking.  I found that when I didnt have every possible buff under the sun (including Ferocity), I was reguarly challenged and beatin on top dps by the already mentioned classes, but when I did have them, I was probably going to win, unless they were using the 7th vet aa.  We were in North Ashengate.

Now Im in a new guild, and the beastlords are very protective of their Ferocity (they all pretty much are of the opinion that Ferocity is a waste and its hard to get them to cast it).  Here, I typically parse near the bottom half of the top 10.  I certainly dont attribute my drop in position to just not getting Ferocity.  There are a multitude of differences in the guild, including my new guild being ahead in progression, completed TSS, so there are some nicer weapons available to those that typically parse better than me.

Conclusion
My main, years ago was a shaman, so I fully understand where you are coming from on casting 'useless' buffs, especially ones that are so short lived and with a long refresh time (admittedly part of the reason he's not my main anymore - being the only shaman on raids sucked).  It would be great to get to the bottom of things and possibly get an upgrade to the spell along the lines of something like the Champion buff.

[Urim]

While you do not have extensive parsers about the benefits of Ferocity, the beastlord community as well as Wycca from the monk community have done pretty long parses. These parses have shown the increase of dps on a 100% uptime melee is around the range of 10-20dps depending on a wide variety of things.

In comparison, for less mana a beastlord can cast one spell and if it crits is roughly the same dps increase as Ferocity is for the average 8 minutes that a beastlords Ferocity will last. ONE SPELL WITH CRIT = 8 minutes of Ferocity but less mana!

I personally would much rather load another nuke in that spot than waste time casting Ferocity. That's not to say I wouldn't cast it if it were useful. I WISH it were useful, it might actually make me beneficial to a raid instead of just filling a spot. The Beastlord community has pleaded with the various spell devs over the years trying to get this spell line fixed with absolutely no result.

My suggestion to you, and any other classes out there that would like us to cast this on you, would be to go to the spell devs and ask them to fix it. The more people complaining about this useless buff, the greater the chance they will do something with it. As more and more beastlords realize what many of us have known for years, the chances of you getting this cast on you will become extremely low and will probably depend on great deal on how clueless the beastlord is and how well you cyborz! :-D