Pushing mobs

Aneya · January 13, 2004, 03:32:58 PM

Having recently started doing PoP flags, I've noticed that pushing mobs is becoming more of an issue. A friend of mine mentioned that their guild tell all melees avoid kick due to its knockback component. Since then I try to avoid using kick during raids unless trying to possition a mob.

Now, the thing I'm wondering about is what affects our pet's abillity to push. In the past I've noticed certain combinations of pets and procs push more then others. Sometimes the same proc won't push for one warder but the next higher warder will push like crazy with the same proc. I've also noticed that push is zone dependent. Some zones result in mobs being pushed farther then others.

So, I ask you, what experiences have you had with mob pushing?

Grbage · January 13, 2004, 04:21:50 PM

Pets push the same as a similar hasted melee but as a mob is pushed around all the pets generally end up on one side of the mob causing a LOT of push. Either enough melee need to reposition themselves to compensate for the pet push or responsible pet owners need to back off their pets and reposition them instead.

As a side note, I've noticed a lot of mobs jumping around because of enthusiastic pallies/clerics or melee with some weapon with a healthy knock back proc to it. That really messes up everyones positioning.

Felidae · January 13, 2004, 04:52:39 PM

In my guild we have a saying, if it's permarooted, it's pwnd!

Needless to say we have pushing issues, and as a pet class I'm very sensitive to where pets figure in.

Why do pets always come up? Is pet push bigger or different? No. Pet push is not a different. It's plain old push. Pet's basically auto-follow attack and that contributes to how they push. It means that when the mob falls back they are instantly in range again so their push is relentless. Pet's are not directly, arrow key style, controlled so their positioning requires more skill. They can follow the mob into walls etc. There is no "pet push" they are just very relentless melee that requires control to position. Additionally pets proc, spell push is vectored in the direction the casters faces, so again the managing position issue pops up wwith pets.

There is a school that believes that push isn't proprtional to magnitude in EQ, they believe hit count, not magnitute is the key. Guilds that buy into that will have rules like, two hand weapons only. People of this school take issue with pets on pushing because they are often are highly hasted.

Manage your pet, manage nay sayers, get pet hold and use your pets!

TheOriginalGronker · January 13, 2004, 05:35:05 PM

Quote from: Aneya
Now, the thing I'm wondering about is what affects our pet's abillity to push. In the past I've noticed certain combinations of pets and procs push more then others. Sometimes the same proc won't push for one warder but the next higher warder will push like crazy with the same proc. I've also noticed that push is zone dependent. Some zones result in mobs being pushed farther then others.

Here's my observations do with them what you will. Push is proportional to number of attacks and/or number of hits. Bash/slam/kick seems to be a regular attack. Monk special attacks may have a 'bonus' amount of push. No proc pushes other than those with a knockback - SoD, and Spirit of Wind for example. You get more push if you are making the mob go downhill. You push the mob in the direction you are facing. I haven't seen a significant difference between zones, though sometimes I feel like a 'lighter mob' gets pushed farther than a heavier mob - but this is more related to old world zones for some reason (maybe related to mob level?) - nothing conclusive here for me though.

Leezard · January 13, 2004, 06:25:18 PM

I really started to notice this issue for the first time last night.

I just hit level 53 and started using Bond of the Wild with Spirit of the Storm on my warder. I did a Butcherblock LDoN mission, and had to constantly back off and re-position the warder so it didn't push the mob into another room. I tried going through one fight without repositioning, and we literally moved from the center of one room, through a doorway, to the wall of the adjacent room, even with me hitting the mob from behind.

No matter where I positioned my warder initially, the mob would always end up getting pushed to the side slightly, and since the warder isn't smart enough to strafe along with it, the thing would swing around in a matter of seconds. I'm guessing that the stun component of SotS comes with a knockback effect since I didn't notice this much push when I was 52, but that's only a guess.

Gremkin · January 13, 2004, 06:38:06 PM

Yes, Storm has a noticeable knockback to it. I frequently group with a couple friends of mine, a cleric and shadowknight, and the SK was forever griping about pet push, as he was often 2-boxing a druid and would have the mob knocked out of melee range of his SK very frequently. When I finally got my hands on Snow, the knockback problem all but vanished.

Kazlak · January 13, 2004, 08:54:00 PM

Spirit of Wind had the most notable push iirc, mobs actually get flung around with it. As far as different mob sizes and zones I don't think any of it matters, I've seen dragons and giants pushed as much as tiny trash mobs.

Of course whenever push causes a problem pet owners get blamed first, but if there is lots of push during a raid I'm always /pet holding and position him against the push. I do this alot during fights to try to balance it out, as should all pet owners unless there's an ae to avoid, in which case the pet will most likely die anyway. :P

TheOriginalGronker · January 13, 2004, 09:29:22 PM

Quote from: GremkinYes, Storm has a noticeable knockback to it. I frequently group with a couple friends of mine, a cleric and shadowknight, and the SK was forever griping about pet push, as he was often 2-boxing a druid and would have the mob knocked out of melee range of his SK very frequently. When I finally got my hands on Snow, the knockback problem all but vanished.

Storm has zero knockback. Snow has zero knockback. I'll repeat *once* that no pet proc has ANY knockback effect apart from spirit of wind (unless they add something in the new expansion but at the time of this writing this is true). Check out Lucy and look for a "push back" field - if you dont see it, there ain't any pushback.

Atropine_BB · January 13, 2004, 10:26:20 PM

Agreed, spirit of the storm has no push...

However spirit of the wind has a huge push effect. I happened to be grouped with another beastlord during a LDON mission, and we were both using spirit of the wind. Mobs were being thrown all over the place. It was so bad that we both had to dismiss our pets and make new ones not using spirit of the wind.

waywreth · January 14, 2004, 01:32:38 PM

Yeah spirit of wind makes the mob into a ping pong ball. Just to see what would happen, my 2 BST friends and I all loaded on our pets. The mob ended up halfway across the zone (dulak in this case).

It's been banished to the back of the book since then. We'll use vermin till 53, then switch to storm.

Kinmax · January 14, 2004, 01:57:54 PM

Just last night we did the Burrower Parasite in The Deep. For those that do not know this encounter it is waves of mobs then end with a HUGE worm.

This worm gets moved all over the place due to push of the players acting on it. I use my pet to move it off the wall and into the center again. Yes, I loose some dps from this fight but he has a boat load of HP and if hes pushed waaaay up on a wall the raid fails. So, /pet back off, run to the top of the walll with pet in tow and /pet attack. I stay up on this side and melle it as well. I am not alone in this as the other BST and a Paladin with a knock back stun are up there moveing the mob down as well.

Man0warr · January 14, 2004, 04:49:14 PM

Since pets close the gap instantly it seems like they push more than a pc, if your good you and other bst in your guild can use this to posistion mobs, pet hold helps alot

LevarilofLanys · January 14, 2004, 06:33:55 PM

Something to note for those of you raiding who are having a problem with push during a raid. Repositioning is a very good tactic for pet classes and you, as a responsible beastlord, should be doing it regularly if the mob is being pushed out of position. Melee people tend to blame the pets and some do nothing themselves to help with push so it may end up being mainly us (beastlords) that are trying to manage the push. I hate hearing the occasional rant in the raid channel like "Stop pushing the mobs around with your pets!" Most of us know that the pets are no more responsible than most melee-ers. However the pets getting lumped up on one side of a mob during push is indeed or problem and something we should be managing.

Anyways back to my original point. Cast Spirit of the Wolf on your pet if you can. If you are indoors cast Spirit of the Shrew on your pet. Either of those spells make repositioning your pet infinitely easier. It amazes me how many people with pets do not realize that. The burrower is a good example of an encounter where you need to move around a fair bit. With those stupid rocks in the center of the room, ideally if there is push it is around those rocks in a ring. Unfortunately the burrower parasite regularly gets pushed up the walls if you are not careful and anticipating this push and managing for it can make the encounter much better.

bugman · January 15, 2004, 02:07:28 AM

out of a raid of 40+ people my pet and my pet alone got blamed for generally pushing mobs too much one time, which was just silly. my guild has had problems with it and i often seem to be one of a few pet owners that is willing to repeatedly reposition my pet as needed, most just hit /pet attack and go afk it seems. alot of problems arise from mage and necros that care enough to make a pet and send it into battle but not enough to run to the other side of a mob before sending it (they're often facing oncoming pulls where they'll nook from and dont think that their pets are pushing towards where a pull just came from and where potential adds are). we've recently got some new beastlords in my guild and im usually the one on thier asses making sure their pets are well behaved. unless there is a very specific reason at no time should a beastlord be on one side of a mob and your pet on the other as one of you is pushing the wrong way. its a constant battle to get people to be good pet owners and even more of a battle to get the negative stereotypes to disappear. all we can do as a community is try our best to make sure our pets are well behaved.