Procs...proc damage...and some strangeness...

[Zorthaz]

Hello all,

I was in SS the other night when a tunic dropped that has a focus on it that works on all spells.  I think it had a range of power like 5% - 40%.  A necro in the group also got the tunic (Warden's Vest - http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=93682) and he searched for what spells the focus actually affected.  He found something on Alla's that stated it affected instant cast spells.

1: Increase Spell Damage by 40%
2: Limit: Max Level(90) (lose 5% per level over cap)
3: Limit: Effect (Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Instant spells only
5: Limit: Spell Type (Detrimental only)
6: Limit: Target (AE PC v1 excluded)
7: Limit: Target (PB AE excluded)
8: Limit: Target (Targeted AE excluded)
9: Limit: Target (Uber Giants excluded)
10: Limit: Target (Uber Dragons excluded)
11: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed

  Using this information he managed to convince me it had to affect proc damage.  I never knew focus effects could affect proc damage.  I went to CoD to do some testing.  With bare hands I was getting a 357 damage proc from Gelid Claw AA.  I pulled out a OOW 2HB (Rime-Encrusted Pikestaff - http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=31942) with an inate 250 DD ice proc (Frozen Shards) and a 125 ice DD proc aug. 

I was seeing procs for 183 and 518 crit and then, BAM I get a crit proc for 1425!!!  Huh?  I had the pet on hold and was not using any discs.  I would aggro mob (rat mobs) and turn on auto-attack and watch the procs go by.

The 1425 crit proc repeated several times.  I can't think what of what would cause this unless I was somehow reposting with a disc.  Is that even possible?

On a side note I did notice that +spell dmg on items affects procs in a 4:1 ratio.  Adding 4 spell dmg would add 1 to proc damage.

Your thoughts?
-Z-

[Jili]

You used 2hbash and did not use any special attacks at all?

1425 looks like a Gelid Claw proc x 4 damage (- some rounding).
I never even glanced at how Twinproc works. Does it add another identical proc, or double the damage from the one proc?

But Gelid Claw procs only from HTH attacks + special attacks? Rush etc.

[Zunar]

Yeah Hand to hand attacks, which include Rush and Feral Swipe.
Even if you're using a blunt weapon, those special attacks still always fire as hand to hand attacks, firing off Gelid Claw.

[Hzath]

Twinproc just fires off a copy of the original proc, you get double spam.  I'm also 95% sure gelid claw can't crit because it has the debuff associated with it.  I also have no idea what you saw.

[Zorthaz]

I did some furthur testing with various weapons and each weapon had a different critical blast number.  I will have to post the numbers when I get home.  The only wepon I had that didn't have a proc or an added proc aug was my 1.5 epic.  When I used the epic I never got the huge critical blast message which leads me to believe it is somehow tied to the proc damage on the weapon and not a special attack.

In the old days if you had a weapon with a 75 dmg proc on it, you got 75 dmg proc messages.  If you had the AA for crits you saw 75 dmg messages anf 150 critical blast messages.  When I added a 50 dmg proc aug to a weapon I would now see either 50, 75, 100, or 150 dmg proc messages.

With the 2HB I was testing it has a 250 inate proc and a 125 proc aug added.  I was expecting to see 125, 250, 250 crits and 500 crits.  What I actually saw was 183 proc, 500 proc, and a 1425 crit proc.  I never got a base 250 proc.  When I use the T4 tunic proc buff I was seeing procs for 2058.  That tells me I have 58 spell dmg on my armor.  125 + 58 spell dmg =183.  So it seems aug procs directly add spell dmg.  I never did see a 366 crit proc. 

I will have to pull the parse info when I get home but what I observed was based on older weapons and proc augs:
* aug procs were treated like buff procs and never crit
* Aug procs seem to directly add in +spell dmg
* The base proc parsed was 2X the inate proc dmg listed (250 listed X 2 = 500 on the parse)
* Wonderfully huge critical blasts that I can't explain which I only saw on weapons that had a proc 

My head is spinning trying to make sense of it.  If you want to test it yourself, grab an older weapon with a proc or added aug and watch what you get.  Don't use special attacks and remember to filter out gelid claw procs.
-Z-

[Zorthaz]

Just looking at these weapon's inate proc I created the following table:

                                          weapon  observed     Crit        ratio
                                             proc      proc          blast     crit/weapon proc
Rime Encrusted Pike   250   500   1425   5.7
Pole of Punishment                  100   200   570   5.7
Hand of Honor                    75   150   427   5.69
Stave of the Eternal                    75   150   427   5.69
Rune Etched Bamboo Bo   150   300   855   5.7

There were several weapon procs that did not follow the pattern seen above
Aug proc                             125           183        none
Blackout                              100   160   456  proc is 100dd plus stun
Mace of Focused Flame        156   216   615

-Z-

[Nusa]

It's fairly well known that nukes with debuff effects don't crit like pure nukes.

Mace of Focused Flame procs a bolt-type spell. Bolts are nukes that work like arrows, with a VERY long range, line-of-sight restrictions and travel time to target. Mages use them a lot, but in proc form the range advantage is gone. Anyway, the point is the application of bonuses is probably different for that kind of spell. A top-flight mage would probably know.

If you want to to proper testing, you need to understand or eliminate the effects of AA's, focuses, and other modifiers.

I'd suggest doing a /testcopy, and do your testing there. You can eliminate AA's (including the gelid proc) by doing a /resetaa. You can eliminate focuses by removing gear. Things like DoN progression bonuses you can't dump (assuming you did them), but at least they're fairly small effects. Once you get a baseline, you can add things back in a controlled fashion.