I didnt get my 2 cents on the fanfaire topic so Im starting a new one. Here are my suggestions.
1: Unlink our nukes. And if you dont want to unlink them at least give us 3 seperate timers on our cold nukes instead of 2.
2: Roar of Thunder needs its decrease hate values to be increased by 50% or the current values need to be made into fixed agro values
3: Increase all pet class' pet heals by 15-20% since pet hp has increased
4: Add endurance regen to group paragon. leave it off focused cause I think that would be too powerful with endurance regen.
5: Fero blah blah blah youve heard it before
6: Give us some sort of curse cure.
7: Increase our dot damage and give our dots a minor resist adjust.
8: Taste of Blood: At least needs its Increase minimum damage modifier doubled and duration doubled.
9: New Pet models: Im a sucker for graphics. Already a new bear model in the SHIP in the laboratory.
10: Increase duration on group haste.
My thoughts on these, I know I don't count, but still...
1. Personally, I'ld rather not have them looking at this, since there's so much other stuff they could fix, and focus on for our class and other classes, I know it's a matter of DPS to you raid level beasties, but frankly, it means nothing to the 50-70% of the solo/lowbie group population, I still use frost shard at level 73 just for the hell of it, I haven't cared to pick up another nuke, my mana is used to slow and cripple and endless stream of mobs, occasionally buffing myself and/or my pet.
2. I agree, I haven't purchaesd Roar of Thunder, but again this is a raid concern only, using it when soloing, I couldn't give a rats ass less if it decreased aggro, and when grouping, I'm the tank. Frankly, I'ld like to see a few more aas for it next expansion, to be able to drop it down to 30 seconds reuse time, or if not that, an alternate timer, same ability, but it focuses more on the debuff + hate decrease. Say level 1 is the exact same stats as roar of thunder, requires Roar of Thunder level 3, level 2 would be roar of thunder plus 25% debuff and +50% aggro redux, level 3 would be +50 % debuff +100% aggro redux, either base of 30 second timer, or able to be reduced to 30 seconds after some quickening aas.
3. Nay, not if it comes at the cost of mana increase. If you're asking for freebies, I doubt Beastlords out of all the classes deserve/should/would get them. Congratulations pets on hitpoint increase, we have plenty of utilities to make pets last a long time, if you want to memorize 3 nukes, that's your own perogative instead of memorizing a pet c heal and a pet heal.
4. I think that is very reasonable, endurance regen has been missing since acumen was changed way back in the day, when it was called stamina regeneration.
5. Blah blah to fero- don't buy or memorize the higher level spell, keep the lower level spell for your or your groupmates resists, or for the 40-90% of beastlords who still solo/group with self buffs, guess what? We barely reach soft cap with solo gear, sometimes even group gear.
6. I would love it, but that's asking for freebies again, if we're going to ask for cure stuff, why not radiant cure? Or an upgrade to our cure poison and disease spells as well? And throw in an upgrade to our cancel magic line too, I hate long-casting cancel magic.
7. No, unless Shadowknights are getting an amazing overhaul on DoTs, we are far from deserving the DPS increase on DoTs compared to them. If it's "Increase all hybrid damage spells(DoT DD AoE) to be worth casting/have beneficial mana to damage ratios" then fine, go ahead with it.
8. Oh what, you don't like a flavor aa because it isn't all that useful? How about instead of asking for a bone where we don't need one, we let them decide where to throw us one? Most activatable aas with timers greater than 3 minutes are meant to be used for flavor etc, this falls mostly in that vein...
9. I would definitely not want this, I'ld rather have them work on performance and stability and reducing the ram-leak/ram-hoggishness that Everquest already is, than simply compounding it.
10. I agree, all of our hastes should be 45+ minutes, in fact, the only buffs that should be short duration, are those with durations under 5 minutes to begin with, this does not include Fero, I would like to see durations smoothed out on all spells of similar levels, or even across levels. Put 'buffs' on a 1 hour for rank 1, 2 hour for rank 2, 3 hour for rank three sort of setup, focusable of course, but that requires tweaking hundreds upon hundreds of spells, though I think we as the players deserve it, as one more nod to the casual gamer, and one more simplification to the raiders.
I'm not trying to sound snarky or like an asshole or anything, it's just, I've played every class except wizard, berzerker, cleric, and warrior, to level 70 plus, and honestly? We are most definitely not in as much need of loving as some other classes, we might not have a raid niche (unless people still need MGB paragon) but we're solid, sustainable DPS, with some pretty good eye candy burst, that can mostly keep ourselves alive. Now I know I don't speak for the raid members of any class, I'm not attempting to, I'm a completely casual gamer, I pretty much despise raiding, but I know how developer correspondence goes for other classes, I've been pretty close to the process on a few occasions, and asking for bones where they aren't needed, is definitely asking for withholdings of upcoming treats.
For example: They give us higher pet heals now, then the next expansion comes along, and they give us no new pet heals, and don't increase the pets' hitpoints anymore since that's what we "complained about" in the first place, and then it's either uncovered as intended, or uncovered as an accidental oversight, but doesn't get fixed by the time the following expansion comes out, where they do fix it, but probably give us what we would have had for pet health in the previous expansion in the first place.
Curse cure type stuff it'ld be different, they could give it to us, but give it on a long recast, or a horrible cast time, or both, and purposely revamp content, or make new content that would require three casts from our spell to take it off...
Unlinking our nukes? That's begging for them to not increase the ratio on item proliferation in the next expansion for beastlords/letting them leave us off of a bunch of monk-intended weaponry. Or, just asking them to give the upgrades for the next expansion, a horrible mana to damage ratio.
Of course, perfect world, perfect players, perfect devs, I'ld take everything on your list, I still wouldn't use 1, 3, 6, 7, 8, or 9, but I'ld be happy to have it.
I like some of them, but Roar and Fero need to be number 1 and 2. Penchantment duration number 3. :-D Our nukes are fine, I still average within the same 300 dps range before and after the nerf. Endurance regen is a good one, but its a long shot, would make life a lot easier. Dots do land of on raid mobs (poisen), but really the aggro associated with them suck.
Didnt they give our nukes timers just to give us actual upgrades to our nuke lines and not lower DPS? Think I read a dev saying that. Granted lower DPS is the end result but I didnt think that was the original intent.
Dont care about pet heals, I havent memmed one in forever and I've never had a problem with my warder throughout TSS or Solteris.
Leave Taste of Blood as it is, its on par with the other classes. I'd rather see them give us a new AA that affects us not our pet: a bonus damage mod or more attack for a kill shot. Hell could even be endurance regen if linked to an alternative deaggro skill gain (see below).
Nukes or DoTs for an upgrade not both. Since DoTs have sucked for so long, I'd rather just see them go. 3 ice nukes would be fine but its not priority #1.
They wont change roar of thunder to a 30 second cast time, not as long as its a free 3K nuke. Id rather see them leave roar of thunder as is but give us a very low damage skill on a 30 second timer for deaggro, cost to use is endurance (not like we ever go below 60% on raids anyways).
Upgrade our pet's DPS, we are the only true pet class whos pet cannot backstab, throw us a bone.
Would like to see another DPS disc since we havent seen one since DODH.
Also wouldnt mind seeing a group version of spirit of frenzy.
Quote2. I agree, I haven't purchaesd Roar of Thunder, but again this is a raid concern only, using it when soloing, I couldn't give a rats ass less if it decreased aggro, and when grouping, I'm the tank. Frankly, I'ld like to see a few more aas for it next expansion, to be able to drop it down to 30 seconds reuse time, or if not that, an alternate timer, same ability, but it focuses more on the debuff + hate decrease. Say level 1 is the exact same stats as roar of thunder, requires Roar of Thunder level 3, level 2 would be roar of thunder plus 25% debuff and +50% aggro redux, level 3 would be +50 % debuff +100% aggro redux, either base of 30 second timer, or able to be reduced to 30 seconds after some quickening aas.
Part of what I meant here, is like how we have Paragon of Spirits and Perfection of Spirit, or Spirit of Wood and Convergence of Spirits, being on two separate timers.
I would like a "Thunderous Roar" AA, similar name to Roar of Thunder so people get that the effect is similar, exactly like you said, 30 second deaggro click, with debuff component, but like I was pointing out, maybe it starts out as a 4.5 minute deaggro buff, on an alternate timer to Roar of Thunder, with as much damage as 50-100% of rank 1 Roar of Thunder (something like 375-750) with the damage portion being given a crappy resist check, and allowed for partial resist. The debuff should last for 1.5 minutes, to allow for when the quickened Thunderous Roar aa is maxed, (30 seconds reuse reduction per rank, 8 ranks, 5 points per) we can either chain it on multiple mobs, or it will last through one time to two times that it gets resisted if we land it once.
Hell, strip the DD component entirely if you think it'll make a stronger case, but I think asking to have to spend another 52 aa on what amounts to a 0-10 DPS upgrade that simply gives us a utility we're supposed to have (deaggro and debuff) as a DPS class with the incapacitate line of spells (We should get a retroactive catchup on these spells starting at 66, but that's a whole 'nother ball of yarn.) DPS class = needs a fade ability to reduce or whipe aggro entirely from one mob, monks, rogues, rangers being the primary examples, have all had this for a long, long time. (Hell even wizards and enchanters get concussion and memory blur, paladins and clerics used to get atone, I don't know if that line still works or has been continued or not)
As far as pet DPS upgrade? I wish. I was told we got a -huge- tanking upgrade, so that's why we got shafted on DPS increase compared to magician and necro and SHADOWKNIGHT! :( pets... Then I find out, that shadowknight pets got 3 times the tanking upgrade (differential) magician pets are still about 20% better tanks out of the box, and magicians can spend their aas on focusing on their pet earlier, since they don't have to worry about melee aas... at all really. Necromancers get all those utilities, snare slow dots fear feign, and their pets because of large lifetap procs, are tanking as well as Babe if not better with the same focus.
So let's see...
Necromancers over 15 levels went from having a 4200 hp pet, to having an over 14000 hp pet, with a dps increase from 47 to 66, for their warrior, or their rogue from a 2500 hp pet, to an 8000 hp pet, going from 65 dps to 99 dps.
Magicians went from(we'll just do earth pet, because otherwise the pet spell level comparison gets thrown off too much) 4800 hp 66 dps increased to 16000 hp, 198 dps... (Their air pet however went from 50 DPS to 215 DPS, and their fire pet went from 70 DPS to over 370 DPS)
We went from Spirit of Sorsha, 4100 hitpoints, 77 dps, to 11(?) or 12000 hitpoints, and 110-141 DPS depending on who is reporting it. The other pet classes got a 300-350% upgrade in hitpoints (and more avoidance/stronger stuns/better innate procs etc) and anywhere from a 50% upgrade in DPS(that necro information has to be way off... otherwise their rogue pets are less DPS and HP than shadowknights) to a 500% DPS increase for magician's fire pets! we got a 50-100% dps increase.
My opinion? What the bleep was the dev smoking that said we got a bigger pet hp/tanking upgrade therefore we didn't need as high of a DPS upgrade? What they probably meant was, Beastlord's in general with item proliferation got more tanking ability than before, so they turned our pet into a DoT to compromise for the fact that we can stay in the fight and use our melee DPS on content that used to be too tough to do so.
Sure, these are 'out of the box' numbers, that don't factor in pet haste or pet buffs or pet toys. But rationally speaking- only magicians have guaranteed access to pet toys(add another 20-50 % dps depending on how much you think the procs go off and how much the mowcha muzzle haste effects pure melee dps), and pet damage shields, everyone has access to pet haste, and necro's and magicians both have innate procs on their pets so they don't need to cast a proc buff like we do. Though I can see that logic being used against me:
"You just complained that their out of the box DPS is higher, but you admitted they have an out of the box innate proc, but your out of the box pet needs to be buffed with a proc, so there's your missing DPS upgrade"
My answer to that is to call BS. If we're supposed to be evened up by our proc, why not just roll it into innate with the warder, rather than having the most awkward length buff out of all of our spells? I understand utility/resist purposes, but honestly, I've never, since luclin, switched a buff because I thought my warder was getting resisted too much, and back then, I had to resummon to be able to do that. But anyway, why should an external buff on the warder, we cast, be necessary to even up the pet to the out of the box dps of other class pets? (and it doesn't for the most part) All the other classes get their own utilities to buff up the pet, damage shield for mages (very large dps increase) necro rogue positioning while kiting... our class defining bonus buff, is something already ingrained into other pets. unless they mean to tell us the insane cost on growl of the leapord panther puma etc... is supposed to be our DPS that we're missing? Even then, it's only 20% more, compared to 500% on the mages best increase. I think out of the box, our pet should fall at least 1 dps higher than magician air pets, bare minimum, because that actually seems to be their lowest DPS pet.
The mages needed it. Mage DPS was so lacking compared to wizards and necros before thier upgrade. And their pets have always hit for more than our pets anyway. Comparing Mage DPS to beast DPS simply becuase we both have pets is like comparing apples and oranges becuase they both have seeds.
I readily admit I have read maybe %5 of everything that's been said in this thread.
With that in mind:
Magician pets will always be better than our pets. We will always be better than a Magician. There's your balance.
Necromancer pets are still hardly worth the time and effort to maintain and thusly aren't used anymore.
Shadowknight pets got a DPS increase. Newsflash: they still blow goats.
Really, the only thing we need to bring up at fanfaire are the re-re-re-re-rehashed Ferocity issues as well as MAYBE a group paragon issue. The new expansion has a lot in store for us, but it's better to wait until Beta opens until we start trying to pinpoint the most minor issues we have to worry about.
What might help is if Shadowknight and shaman had a pet rune that blocked all spells up to a certain amount. Would make pets viable on raids. But Im getting off topic.
The way i see it rangers got a curse cure why shouldnt we? I mean all hybrids can cure curse except us. Im not asking for the same mini heal and cure that rangers have but something would be nice.
And Shadowknights should have thier dots damage increased too. They already have the resist adjust. The way I see it either give us 3 seperate timers on our cold nukes or increase our dot damage cause Ive got an extra spell gem to fill since the March patch so its either or. Even rangers get 4 seperate nuke timers. 2 cold 2 fire.
Really I am pretty satisfied with my beastlord right now. There's a lot of little tweaks they could do to make the class better, but not much that is major. I guess my biggest problem right now is aggro. Fortunately 90% of the time I group with an awesome tank who has maxed aa and very good gear, but even he loses aggro to me if I am not careful. Maybe if I bought more then rank 1 of Roar it would help that.
Roar barely does anything at all. You'll end up maxing it eventually just because you want the 11 dps,the deagro doesn't even cover 1 poison nuke. Things I would push is making fero not a complete waste of time (just make it group and last over an hour, the gains are so small there's no reason not to do this), the chokadai model freezing when it casts a spell (the pet will stop moving while in the 1-2 second freeze, causing it to lose damage should the mob be pushed/move out of it's range while frozen), DoT spells being worthless (decrease the cast time to 0.5 and throw on a -20 resist mod?), and pet scaling (This is true for all pet classes, the pets just simply do not keep up in dps and cause the classes that have them to fall way behind in raid content).
Aggro is indeed a major issue, even more so at the raid level than in the grouping game (well, if all groupmembers have comparable gear and AAs). Of course i would love to see the possibility of more nukes, especially as that is the trigger for the chanters proc buff and that gets an upgrade each expansion.
More dps or tankability for pets would be nice, but as Inph pointed out mage pets will allways be better than ours, however in total we do quite a lot more dps than them (and we can probably tank better as well).
Quote from: Denti on July 30, 2008, 12:28:27 PM
Aggro is indeed a major issue, even more so at the raid level than in the grouping game (well, if all groupmembers have comparable gear and AAs). Of course i would love to see the possibility of more nukes, especially as that is the trigger for the chanters proc buff and that gets an upgrade each expansion.
More dps or tankability for pets would be nice, but as Inph pointed out mage pets will allways be better than ours, however in total we do quite a lot more dps than them (and we can probably tank better as well).
Quite. Rangers have deagro out the wazoo. Rogues have thier sneak macro. Monks have FD. Bards have fade. Zerkers have thier Jarring Smash. And all casters have thier deagro with exception of mages. My question is would what I proposed cover a good amount of agro? Double the current value or make current value into Fixed Agro value?
I would like to see our de-aggro ability increased either through improving Roar or some other mechanism.
Raid utility can be improved too. We do respectable DPS, but not as much as the top tier classes and since we can't buff much at a raid level that severely limits our desirability (old news). If we had a spell or ability that is an attack debuff, that could be something significant for us to bring to raids. We already have this ability in the form of the Mace of Grim Tidings, so it's not something that is completely out of bounds for our class.
Quote from: Denti on July 30, 2008, 12:28:27 PM
More dps or tankability for pets would be nice, but as Inph pointed out mage pets will allways be better than ours, however in total we do quite a lot more dps than them (and we can probably tank better as well).
Can anyone actually confirm this? Ive been messing around on the Mage boards sense making a Magician for Tinkering (I'm a TS junky) and duo'ing with my mostly retired Druid and the top magicians are posting top 5 DPS on raids. Mabye there are so few high end game Mages (SoF content) that people are still feeling sorry for them? Or there lying mabye? But I doubt people in the highest end guilds would be lying about the DPS they are doing.
So back to the original reply. Can we confirm that Mages are not out DPS'ing us? I guess we would have to further comment on duration of fight. Less than 3 minutes, 3-7 minutes, greater than 7 minutes, or however the Raid Time breakdowns are done now days and fight/event (mana draining mobs would probally lower a Mage's DPS).
As a side note: Wouldn't we need a Mage's parse to remove some of the "DPS" lost to the battle spam/OoR?
Confirm what? The defensive portion of a magician pet, or the offensive? Ask anyone with a brain, both exceed our pet.
As for DPS, you're correct - it entirely depends on the duration of the fight. But, the most a top fight usually ever runs is 10 minutes tops, and I can only think of two fights that do that. Both of them are effectively nonparsable and thusly can't be validated by anyone.
Your average burn fight in top end content tops at around 3 or 4 minutes. 60 seconds makes a difference, but I would need to see valid proof of a Magician parsing top 5 over Berserkers, Rogues, Wizards, and Monks. It's feasible, but the Magician would most definitely need a Bard and Manaflare, with some serious luck with resists and GoERM procs.
**EDIT**
I'm not saying it's not possible, and I probably know which Magician's you're talking about, but not everyone is an all-star =P
I just did a quick skim over our last month or so of parses and I was over our mages in all of them. The only time that one of them was close was when he put himself in a bard/shammie group and burned 7th to test his output.
Mages are fine imo (not in theirs though!).
The class that has surprised me lately has been rangers. They are consistaintly parsing up with monks. Even sometimes pushing into the rogues.
Anyhow, I am going to be making a list of things to bring up to the devs at the fan faire.
My guild just defeated Solteris last night, I can confirm with numerous parses that mages are on par DPS wise with beastlords and monks throughout Solteris. These
"2nd tier" DPS classes put out about 25-50% less then our rogues/wizzies/zerkers, easily sustaining 2500-3000 DPS through a 3-4 minute fight. My good humored poke at my fellow guild mages isnt that they are on par with my DPS, its that they can achieve my level of DPS w/o ever snagging aggro.
Our similarly geared and AAed rangers on the other hand I can reliably out DPS by about 10-15% every night.
*Drools* 2500-3000 burn DPS and you're in Solteris still? Does that mean you have a bunch of itemization and possible DPS upgrading in SoF to still go through?
During the "original" Solteris, well, during TBS in Solteris our beastlords did up to 5k dps on burst fights (Orc on second event, which was our burst parse fight and lasted around 60 to 80 seconds) and comfortably around 3.5k on other events. However that was well befor the spell link nerf and of course using all available means.
We lost quite a lot if peak dps with the spell link nerf, however we still can do quite a lot. It might be our mages but they never parse anywhere close to beastlords except if we suck and afk half through the fight.
Quote from: Rabekiz on August 01, 2008, 03:44:41 PM
My guild just defeated Solteris last night, I can confirm with numerous parses that mages are on par DPS wise with beastlords and monks throughout Solteris. These
"2nd tier" DPS classes put out about 25-50% less then our rogues/wizzies/zerkers, easily sustaining 2500-3000 DPS through a 3-4 minute fight. My good humored poke at my fellow guild mages isnt that they are on par with my DPS, its that they can achieve my level of DPS w/o ever snagging aggro.
Our similarly geared and AAed rangers on the other hand I can reliably out DPS by about 10-15% every night.
So then are only DPS concern is getting the "standard" upgrade to DPS for the expansion. At least thats "easy" to convince the dev's on.
So if the "standard" DPS upgrade is gives to us in the next expansion the last 9 would be...
2) Fero - Improve it, remove it, do something with it.
3) De-aggro - Spell, Disc, or AA. Something that can be used every 3 tic's (18 sec.) or better would be nice.
4) IoS, Dex, Str, and Sta buff line - Overcaps of that spell line would be great. 4 spells to do what 1 shammy buff can do 1 or 2 expansions ago isn't over powering. +20 overcap (+15 Ios and +5 individual buff's) I don't see as overpowering for lvl 85's when we are part Shammy anyways. Of course +20 can be scaled +/- depending on what the developers are comfortable with.
5) Cripple/Slow - Not really sure how they could upgrade these other than increase the level so the level difference of the spell vs. mob level isn't so great. Mabye a poison resist check w/50% slow. Not really sure here. Mostly looking at the PC vs. NPC level here.
6) 2hb AA - An AA to increase Damage while weilding 2hb weapons would be great. We can use the weapons, now give us the AA for the incentive to actually use 'em.
7 - 9) I could think of more but ATM I need to give up the computer so others will have to fill in.
10) Race AA's - OK, this isn't a class issue but there are no race forums, only class forums. With the exception of Gnome. The benefits of choosing any race is basically "nil" as you level. Ever advantage/disadvantage races used to have are removed with equipment, aa's, and clickies. Mabye they can add race specific aa's to make everyone a little more unique again.
Majority of Solteris is Fire thought so most mobs are immune to mages best nukes right? Can you get a reliable parse with that? I have seen some real crappy mages that just dont know how or refuse to do the DPS that some do. There was at least 2 in our guild at one point. That being said I think the mage community and boards are some of the most dedicated people to this game. If you need data on this game thats the place to go.
That problem with asking for a new cripple is that the shamans didnt get one last expansion when Enchanters did. Hard to ask for an upgrade in the same spell line for us when they didnt get one. Im not sure if Cripple is a dead spell line for them but if they dont get one next expansion I would say it is or at least is temporarily.
An overcap version of our IoS would be great and it would be the perfect complement to our focus line. While one combined buff would be great (and would save on spell data) I think we are more likely to get it if we ask for it as an upgrade of IoS
The orc DPS burn fight during the opening of the Aprosis event has no spell immunity, in fact hes probably the easiest mob I've seen in a long time in regard to basically resisting nothing. 2500-3000 can be done w/o mana recursion or panther. Itemization wise there are essentially no upgrades for me from Solteris (my weapons on are par with the balls of sunlight from 2 Gods). Also note that a beastlord can essentially only burn for 60 seconds, after our 2 discs run out we are in sustain DPS mode until we run out of mana (which happens around the 20 minute mark).
Insofar as upgrading our current slow, how about going after a straight AA slow patterned off what the shammies got. Can be a straight cut and paste from our current spell slow. Opens up a spell gem (not really a big deal) and offers up a secondary shot at slowing a mob instead of waiting for the spell slow gem to recycle.
Quote from: Rabekiz on August 06, 2008, 06:48:44 PM
Insofar as upgrading our current slow, how about going after a straight AA slow patterned off what the shammies got. Can be a straight cut and paste from our current spell slow. Opens up a spell gem (not really a big deal) and offers up a secondary shot at slowing a mob instead of waiting for the spell slow gem to recycle.
I really like that idea. Mana free slow sounds super. Give us a reliable deaggro ability, the AA slow, and the regular upgrades and I'll be happy.
As far as I can tell beastlords since nerf can still maintain 3.5k - 4k or at least I could with the Talon and 2.5, Mage parses are more dependant on foci but have seen mages consistently hit 3.6k although I wouldn't say any of the mages in my guild were parse whores, much like I was the only bst that cared about parses since the other two barely hit 2k dps.
As far as Necro's they currently are hitting top spot next to Wizards with 7k parses regularly, depending on the situation I am seeing warriors, rangers, mages beating or matching beastlords on parse mobs. The difference though is that these classes offer more utility than beastlords in raid situations, fortunately the 42raid limits is not being implemented otherwise you would only see 1 Bst in a raiding guild. Personally Fero needs a massive overhaul to give us some desire back for buffs. Rangers have seen an immense increase in their buffs, rogues, monks and zerkers have all received some excellent aura's for dps increase but beastlords have stagnated.
I think that focused paragon was a step in the right direction but we need to see some more utility and another way of dropping agro. In raids agro isn't so much of an issue now that poison nukes aren't linked but if you're in anything other than a guild group agro can still be an issue so a short reuse disc like jolting kicks could be useful. We need to have something unique to bring to the board otherwise we can just be phased out from rosters.
Quote from: Maylian on August 12, 2008, 02:01:42 PM
As far as I can tell beastlords since nerf can still maintain 3.5k - 4k or at least I could with the Talon and 2.5, Mage parses are more dependant on foci but have seen mages consistently hit 3.6k although I wouldn't say any of the mages in my guild were parse whores, much like I was the only bst that cared about parses since the other two barely hit 2k dps.
As far as Necro's they currently are hitting top spot next to Wizards with 7k parses regularly, depending on the situation I am seeing warriors, rangers, mages beating or matching beastlords on parse mobs. The difference though is that these classes offer more utility than beastlords in raid situations, fortunately the 42raid limits is not being implemented otherwise you would only see 1 Bst in a raiding guild. Personally Fero needs a massive overhaul to give us some desire back for buffs. Rangers have seen an immense increase in their buffs, rogues, monks and zerkers have all received some excellent aura's for dps increase but beastlords have stagnated.
I think that focused paragon was a step in the right direction but we need to see some more utility and another way of dropping agro. In raids agro isn't so much of an issue now that poison nukes aren't linked but if you're in anything other than a guild group agro can still be an issue so a short reuse disc like jolting kicks could be useful. We need to have something unique to bring to the board otherwise we can just be phased out from rosters.
So they arent implementing 42 man raids next expansion?
42 man raid idea was called off because of public outcry.
It will be implemented nonetheless. Probably not as primary target next expansion, but the one after that for sure. And i guess we gonna see quite a few 42 man raids next expansion targetet for medium or lower end raiding guilds.
If numbers continue to drop I can see them raising this issue again, however on servers like AB where the population is healthiest it would do far more harm than good. Having alternative raids for 12, 24, 36 players like in DoN or to a lesser extent TSS would be a good option but getting away from the point of this thread.
Bst DPS has probably had its glory days and I doubt we'll see major increases in it beyond the standard increase at expansions. However a utility increase could be a valid argument due to seeing what rangers have had over the last year or so. Not arguing to be given their spells but a role that we are able to fulfill and be of some use with to raids would be a bonus. Some useful buffs that are a nice bonus to melee/casters/tanks or whatever that only we can provide would be a positive step seeing as SE is losing its edge. Christ an pet central aura that increases the dps of all pets within range would be a step in the right direction. I just find it sad that we don't really have a role to fill in raids other than a mana source with average dps.
Wru Maylian ! Garot said me he is missing u :cry:
I really hope we will stay where we are dps wise with the next expansion, on 300+ sec parse we are able to dps very welll, our sustained dps own, i reach top5 easily, was even 1rst on last Entharr parse (no berz in raid and rogues are missing cryst piercer badly)
what we need is another aggro decrease ability and an utility spell/aa which will stuck us in grp dps with sham bard and berz ! and stronger defense ability, with every mobs having the ability to strikethrough our tankability really decreased badly
I really like the new spells which showed up on database - Minax's Mending - grp heal-over-time spell which will improve our back healer job in raid grp
As far as a deaggro ability, I think a swarm aa like Mages Companion of Necessity is the best idea, that instead spawns 1, 2, 3, 4, (Or AoE based on mobs in a 20, or 50 foot radius) medium hitpoint (half of the rampaging servant/companion of necessity hps) very very low damage, talking 1-30 damage swings, flock of wolves, werewolves, warders, something like that, that "explode" a huge deaggro component, or even a fade(I almost said a memory whipe, but that is -NOT- what I meant). And none of that 1 damage to break mez crap, just make it a hatelist based swarmpet, if the pet gets one that is on hatelist that is mezzed, it spawns but gives you the "I cannot attack that target master" message.
I think it's what Roar of Thunder should have been, Roars sound like area of effect abilities to me, and it should probably have paralyzed them in fear/"blinked" them leaving them 1 second mezzed with fade component. If they want to give us a reliable source of a nice chunk of Debuff, that's fine, but Roar of Thunders Deaggro component seems to add up to just barely more than, or just barely, the total of its DD + Debuff hatred.
I imagine an aa like "Pack necessity" whether it be the 1 or more swarmpets, or more per level of the aa, would be a pretty amazing utility, but if designed properly, it wouldn't give us the ability to replace/become a secondary puller, because it should make all of the creatures in a pull forget about us, but on raids, Though eventually people may find a way to abuse it. Maybe if we're really adamant about it, they'ld give it to us, but it would do something like "split" our warder into "companions of necessity" thereby killing it, and rendering it a much less desirable ability, and more of an escape card.
Quote from: Jazzera on August 14, 2008, 12:52:54 PM
Wru Maylian ! Garot said me he is missing u :cry:
Garot only misses me since the other bsts slack. I haven't played EQ1 since April, played EQ2 for a bit and had fun but moved house recently and didn't take my PC with me so have no way of playing now. Actually have got back to RL since going to the gym, starting Muay Tuay and basketball again, if there are some good changes I may come back though.
As far as de-aggro goes, we should get an ability that one of our parent classes gets, but a low skill in it: Feign Death! :evil:
Quote from: Karilis on August 14, 2008, 01:57:14 PM
As far as a deaggro ability, I think a swarm aa like Mages Companion of Necessity is the best idea, that instead spawns 1, 2, 3, 4, (Or AoE based on mobs in a 20, or 50 foot radius) medium hitpoint (half of the rampaging servant/companion of necessity hps) very very low damage, talking 1-30 damage swings, flock of wolves, werewolves, warders, something like that, that "explode" a huge deaggro component, or even a fade(I almost said a memory whipe, but that is -NOT- what I meant). And none of that 1 damage to break mez crap, just make it a hatelist based swarmpet, if the pet gets one that is on hatelist that is mezzed, it spawns but gives you the "I cannot attack that target master" message.
I think it's what Roar of Thunder should have been, Roars sound like area of effect abilities to me, and it should probably have paralyzed them in fear/"blinked" them leaving them 1 second mezzed with fade component. If they want to give us a reliable source of a nice chunk of Debuff, that's fine, but Roar of Thunders Deaggro component seems to add up to just barely more than, or just barely, the total of its DD + Debuff hatred.
I imagine an aa like "Pack necessity" whether it be the 1 or more swarmpets, or more per level of the aa, would be a pretty amazing utility, but if designed properly, it wouldn't give us the ability to replace/become a secondary puller, because it should make all of the creatures in a pull forget about us, but on raids, Though eventually people may find a way to abuse it. Maybe if we're really adamant about it, they'ld give it to us, but it would do something like "split" our warder into "companions of necessity" thereby killing it, and rendering it a much less desirable ability, and more of an escape card.
That could easily be incorporated into our Howl spell. Right before it dies it could do about a howling 2k hate debuff. Or the spell itself could autocast a hate debuff that hits within 18 seconds
I have to agree with Damim, one of our parent classes allready has a nice deaggro ability and there is no real reason why we shouldn't get a lower skill form of FD. As it is Monks have FD with a max skill of 200, giving beastlords a version which maxes around 125 to 150 would be reasonable and in line what SKs get from Necros.
Try arguing that case with SoE...I made the same argument back in SoF beta and before and got shot down for it.
Quote from: Denti on August 16, 2008, 09:05:56 AM
I have to agree with Damim, one of our parent classes allready has a nice deaggro ability and there is no real reason why we shouldn't get a lower skill form of FD. As it is Monks have FD with a max skill of 200, giving beastlords a version which maxes around 125 to 150 would be reasonable and in line what SKs get from Necros.
While I wouldn't mind FD it would make us a bit overpowered. You have to remember it is skill+lvl which would make us a FD puller+buffer+slower+dps class. I believe other classes would rightfully complain.
How about just unlikning the deagro part of roar from the damage/debuff portion of the aa. Then put it on the same timer as jolting kick and call it good.
I know its a nearly impossible case to argue but in the days where a tank puller (yup, SKs) class can easily do 4k dps and very easy over 2k sustained lets me wonder where a not so good dps class with some group utility but no raid utility stands.
Lets face it, in todays game a druid debuffing atk does more for the tanks survival than a beastlord casting slow, our dps while good was seriously nerfed not so long ago and becomes comparable to good dps SKs and our buffs are lackluster or just plain not working anymore, those still working get handed out to shamans in the form of potions.
So we do need a certain fix, be it very much improved dps (which will step on pure melee toes) or increased survivability and utility (via improved buffs/debuffs and FD).
I wonder if asking for our next "slow upgrade" to be the same as sha's revenge, same mana cost, same duration, same percent slow, a -30 resist check like legacy (without the stupid halved duration, or even better, a -50 or -60 resist check) would be out of line?
Then maybe they would give us at least half of what we asked for, either a better resist check for the same mana, or re-up the duration for less mana, or something. Not that I really desire these things, I just stick with Sha's Revenge, I haven't even bothered getting Sha's legacy, I'm often slowing 3-9 mobs at a time, and then tearing through them one by one... doubling my mana cost, AND halving the duration so I have to recast on them all again a few seconds later? I couldn't deal with that. Doesn't matter though, what I think would knock out two birds with one stone is:
Sony wants to give us a "slow upgrade" the next expansion, we know they do, they probably want it to be another one of those stupid pet proc slows, which I also will not purchase. Instead, to give us something we want:
Have our slow, be sha's revenge, + recourse: 3, 5, 10 minute talisman of celerity. I know they don't want to give us a decent duration haste buff, ever. So, for cheap mana, how about putting haste on something we cast every fight, rather than something we shouldn't have to cast more than once an hour? I'm in no way, ever, going to use peerless penchant for the recourse(I think I'll block the buff just in case it overwrites actual celerity), that mana hog that it is.
Same idea with incapacitate, either give us cripple, or incap with a recourse? It doesn't need to cost more mana, as it's supposed to be an 'upgraded spell' and honestly, recourses of spells we already have, aren't upgrades, they're just a way of shortening the work for everyone involved.
If you're going to give us something we can do anyway, almost for free (ornate leather tunic pattern anyone? potions?) slap it on something useful, without ramping up the mana cost on it, or even slap it on something useless, say a level 81 upgrade to flash of light for example, hah, a 30 second 50% haste recourse(Single? group?) in the short duration window, would that make any of you use a spell slot on flash of light rather than hasting yourself?
If they left the mana cost on it cheap as hell, I'ld do it, or if it were 100-300 mana, but lasted a decent amount of time, or was a group recourse, or both, I'ld use it, depending on if it was efficient enough, if it just proved to be a mana soak, it's back to 1 minute hasting the entire group for 27 minutes bp clicking.
Honestly the beastlord class is great, it's pretty fine, it's got really good sustainability, better than most if we're capable of getting outside buffs (clarity potions or clarity line, a better lasting haste from an enchanter, stat buffs from a shaman) but frankly, I hope they continue the trend of moving away from the mindset that the group content should be geared towards people who are previous expansion raid geared, and raid buffed.
I'm on the bandwagon with everyone else that in -capped size high tier raid guilds- we serve little purpose until we start getting into endurance fights. (Could you imagine a boss mob with between 6 and 56 million hp, 90% melee, 90% spell mitigation?) I'm not sure, maybe if they did that, they would leave DoT mitigation at 0% and give it low resists... or maybe they'ld make it uber resistant and leave the mitigation at 90% on DoTs too... What classes would you bring to a raid to take down said critter? Would knowing its DPS change your minds? Would it having adds change your mind? If you're limited to 42, 52, 54'ish people, and the script requires certain classes to be present, or certain abilities to be used, do you pick one raid force, and even if you have 72 guild members, since you -need- that force to complete it, do the other 20-30 guild members never get a chance at the loot on that one?
Basically what I'm asking is, if you were a guild leader of a raid guild, taking on Prophecy of Ro, TSS, TBS, or even SoF right now, what does it currently take for you to want a specific class in your ranks? -Especially- what does, or what would it take for you to want a Beastlord in your ranks, if you weren't one yourself, two, three, four beastlords? What if mob difficulty/script dictated that you needed at least/exactly 7 knights, 15 pure intel casters, 4 rangers, 3 monks, 3 rogues, 3 berserkers, -10- warriors, and 8 pure wisdom casters, what would your final slot be on a 54 person raid? Another intel caster? another rogue? another berserker? A beastlord?
I have a small idea for our deagro ability. Give roar of thunder a chance to completely wipe agro almost like a memblur instead of giving us something like FD (monks will throw a royal fit). Make it work on the principle of the roar is so powerful that it leaves the target not only shaken and less willing to attack the bst but the ringing in the ears is so disorienting that they forget about the bst entirely.
And what happens if your agro on 5000 mobs from someone's uber train? Ug. That you can't even target? Cus they are out of range, below the world whatever. Stil screwed :P