Bestial Alignment III
Slot Description
1: Illusion: Unknown(63)
3: Increase Damage Modifier by 100%
4: Increase Chance to Resist Spell by 20%
Mana: 600
Casting Time: 3
Recast Time: 120
Range: 100
Location: Any
Time of Day: Any
Target Type: Self
Spell Type: Beneficial
Source: Test 01/31
Classes: None
Duration: 1 ticks @L1 to 5 ticks @L5
AA changed, doubt reuse time is 2mins or will cost 600 mana though.
Sigh am I the only that thinks they need to decide if BA is going to be an uber fast buff like frenzy or if it's going to be an illusion buff? I mean seriously 5 ticks now. I like the effect, but again you run into the shrink issue. People that want an illusion won't buy this for 5 ticks of illusion every 10? 20? 30? mins and people that want an additonal boost to burst dps are going to be annoyed with the illusion. *shrugs* I kept saying it was early, but it isn't early anymore. There are a *LOT* of great ideas out there on what to do with this, but they don't seem to be getting it atm imo. If it's a burst disc type of thing then the illusion better not grow you or remove shrink and better not unshrink you when it fades (which every other illusion I know of does). Bleh I give up I'll go feral swipe and weapon affinity and just leave BA till after 600AA spent lol.
Hrm.. I wonder how damaging it would be to activate this and Bestial Fury at the same time...
Oh.. ugh... no.. please... I hope and pray this is NOT the final version of BA... as stated above it will either be disappointing for it's duration or disappointing for it's illusion.
Granted activating this and BF will equal a massive damage output for half a minute, but the sheer hassle of reshrinking afterwards and the lack of sustainability of the illusion just makes me sigh.
Personally I'm all for it being basically mana-free Ferocity with an illusion.. if I get sick of the illusion I just cast Fero instead... Forcing us to use it as a DPS burst ability that leaves us huge at the end will end up being about as noteworthy as Frenzy of Spirit.
=IF= they make it so that the spell doubleshrinks you once it wears off then it would earn a spot among my main 10 hotkeys.. in this form at least.
I must say i have tried out Beastial Frenzy 3 , I love the new effect.
BUT, (always a but isnt there) the reuse time it WAY to long.
IMO, given the effect anything longer than 30 min reuse would make it not worth it. If they could change re-use to 20-30min tops, this would be a worthwhile AA.
Breaking the NDA lalala Breaking the NDA lalala
This is like a second damage disc, given typical melee of around 80-90dps - thats increase in damage of 2.4-2.7k damage. Very nice but 2 hours is indeed too long.
Compare this aa to FoS which is far less useful (though ofcourse a nice combo or if no haste on) or to the ranger version they got with pop (many people said they would kill for an overhaste aa, yet without a doubt this is far more damaging).
At the end of the day its increased dps and that is no bad thing. It would be nice if they fixed illusions and shrink though.
The Ranger one, Guardian of the Forest, kicks ass--I used to box a ranger last year and the skill was extremely useful at Lvl 3. It's 15% overhaste and 140 ATK, lasting 8 ticks (+SCR3). Reuse timer is 15 minutes.
In comparison, our FoS and BA (as it currently stands), even combined, are utter garbage.
how they could fix it
split the AAs into two seperate things
the three tiered part, no illusion, decent duration, level based upgrades
moderate recast time
and then a simple peram illusion warder aa like the elemental form aas
with like an AGI boost or somethin
but that would fix 90% of the complaints i have seen about it
~D~
I'd go with a 1/5th of the current effect for it being permanent / toggle.
My understanding is that this will stack with our damage disc so I don't think it will ever be on a really short timer. If it was we could basically use it in conjunction with Bestial Fury Discipline most if not all of the time, and we'd be killing machines.
EDIT: I am not arguing what the timer should be, I'm just making a *prediction* that the reuse won't ever be short enough to be used alongside the disc most of the time.
Quotesplit the AAs into two seperate things
the three tiered part, no illusion, decent duration, level based upgrades
moderate recast time
and then a simple peram illusion warder aa like the elemental form aas
with like an AGI boost or somethin
but that would fix 90% of the complaints i have seen about it
Make it so! Even if it as a hefty AA investment each this would be a sensible answer. We then have the toy when we want to play and the functional side when we mean business.
What i want to see from bestial alignment disc :
1. Maintainable Illusion.
If it has an illusion at all, i want to be able to STAY in that illusion if i buy the AA for it. The reuse time / duration should be like 1 hour duration, 30 minute reuse or some such.
2. Minor stat boosts
Something along the lines of Frenzy ( the spell ), or the upgrade we dont currently get. For reference :
Level 49 Frenzy :
Frenzy Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
3: Increase AC by 7 (L19) to 10 (L40)
5: Increase AGI by 19 (L19) to 25 (L30)
6: Increase STR by 19 (L19) to 28 (L52)
7: Increase DEX by 25
Or
Level 34 shaman spell fury :
Fury Detail | History | Stacking | Raw Data
Slot Description
3: Increase AC by 12 (L34) to 15 (L50)
5: Increase AGI by 35
6: Increase STR by 27 (L34) to 35 (L50)
7: Increase DEX by 35
Add 2,5, 10 Percent OVERHASTE to it, for levels 1-2-3 respectively.
So i end up with an illusion i can maintain ( much like rangers ), that provides stat boosts for people who havent maxxed stats yet but are high level ( shoot me, i still use frenzy to max my stats /shrug ), AND a slight overhaste for more uber people.
The AA then becomes useful for all, but not terribly overpowering (10 percent overhaste shouldnt be considered overpowering, because a bard can provide more, and make this overhaste sit in same slot as bard haste for balance reasons ).
The duration means we can stay illusioned if we choose ( thus differentiating us from people who dont have the AA.. and in MMRPG's looking different is important ), the over haste means hardcore raiders / min maxers have something to help them in most groups / raids, the long duration deals with the shrink issue, and the stat boosts help all but the most uber free a slot from casting frenzy ( again, would like to see a slight upgrade.. mabye use the stats from fury ).
Thats what i would like anyway.
--Elder Llorath
or they could add shrink x2 to end of duration thus reshrinkin ya when it wears off would be fine. that should also solve the shrink issue as was posted before.
Llorath I agree that if it's an illusion it should be maintainable. Otherwise it simply causes issues. If it's got a sustainable illusion people will buy it just for that alone. However, if it's a burst dps type of AA then the illusion is simply a problem and not wanted. I would prefer a sustainable illusion AA, however, in it's current form I'd rather illusion be removed from this AA, which to me defeats the purpose as this is an illusion AA. Tons of other AA's to boost dmg/stats/etc, but this is the only one to grant bst an illusion currently.
Also, stats are capped for a lot of bst, especially at the point where they'll have BA, so frenzy like stats doesn't do much but add a few AC. Over-haste is pretty crazy and I can't really see that on it, but I did give it some thought. I think a proc, mana regen like mage water, atk, whatever could all work. This doesn't even need to be a three tiered skill. It could simply be 9AA for a one rank skill that gives illusion on a sustainable timer and gives whatever bonuses.
Does anyone else see this situation for us in the future with this AA?
Raid Leader says, "DISC IT BURN IT"
Beastlord_01 dies.
Beastlord_02 dies.
Beastlord_03 dies...
What kind of aggro will using this in conjunction with our level 60 disc do???
I agree this should be split into 2 AAs, one for Illusion and one for suicide DPS.
Combining this with frenzy of spirits and bestial frenzy will put most BL personal DPS up by x3 - the best equipped BL should be pushing out 350 ish DPS
the best monks will be pushing out 360 ish and rogues zooming up to 500 during their max damage effort
so - no - I dont see it as killing off all BL
As far as I understand, and nothing I've seen has contradicted the theory, melee creates aggro by the damage potential of the swings and stuff like having 2500 atk or running a burst damage disc don't change that base number of hate per swing. There was a long thread on SK boards about it ... anyways, I've never gained aggro by the use of FoS and bestialfrenzy and I doubt this AA will kill me either - at least our MTs have built up plenty of aggro to spare towards the end of the encounter.
Firstly, i am not in beta, so i am commenting on the "public" data that sony has to be aware is in lucy.
Secondly, i fully agree with tastian. Either make the illusion sustainable with minor stat boosts, OR get rid of the illusion all together.
Adding shrink to the END of the burst dps / illusion AA this is currently wouldnt do anything, because.. well we all shrink on big raids for a reason, and unless i STAY SHRUNK when this AA gets popped, i will be in other melee's way at a time everyone would be trying to do the most damage.
I certainly cant take time out of a 5 tick aa to cast shrink, either.
I can live with it if it becomes "just another burst damage AA".. really i can. I both raid ( our guild / alliance is elemental ), and exp group quite a bit. Having another way to pump out damage, even if its short term, would be ok... HOWEVER, if the AA stays short term the illusion portion needs to go.
The "want illusion" people are not going to buy it to be in an illusion for 5 ticks, and the raiders certainly dont want it unless you pop in illusion shrunk, and stay shrunk when it wears off. If those 2 conditions are met, the raid / min max people wont care what you look like probably.
Give us one or the other... or an AA for both. Personally i see nothing wrong with people running around as tigers, bears, etc at all.. Hell they made project illusion so neither does sony, at this point.
Quote from: TytalliaDoes anyone else see this situation for us in the future with this AA?
Raid Leader says, "DISC IT BURN IT"
Beastlord_01 dies.
Beastlord_02 dies.
Beastlord_03 dies...
What kind of aggro will using this in conjunction with our level 60 disc do???
No, the only way you're gonna see that is if you're chaining 3-4 ice DDs and both poison DoTs. Discs/AAs are a drop in the bucket compared to the aggro generated by a decent warrior now, and for a fully Time-equipped one, there's nothing in the world you could do to pull aggro once he's got it locked. Second DoT might change that though, heh.
I still think this AA is going to suck no matter what they do. I get people crying about the size of my bear during the 6 seconds it takes me to click my SoAS twice and shrink him after un-suspending. No amount of dmg increase over 5 ticks (that SOE would be willing to give us) would be worth the hassle of being an ogre-sized bear.
we asked for the ability to "become" our warders for so long that they decided to give it to us...but at the same time they appear to be doing it in such a way that it's a joke. At least we'll have something neat to use at costume parties. :wink:
if its on a 10 minute time I d buy it how it is, if its 30 or more minutes, gonna be way down on my list
I mean really, sinister strikes, feral swipe and weapon affinity gonna be the first 100 points to spend heh the the pet dmg enhancers and then maybe this one
So who's feedback are they listening to to make these changes? It's definately not mine.
Anyone else in beta suggest such a ridiculous change to Bestial Alignemnt?
Wasn't me.
My feedback consisted of me letting them know that the reuse time is WAY to long, and believe me, it's WAY WAY too long and that the duration was too short. I reminded them of the comparable Ranger aa and that the reuse time on it was much shorter.
So who told them to that the duration was too long?
Or... Are they ignoring the feedback that they asked us to provide?
Just tested it and feedbacked, its not usable at the moment in my opinion. At least i wont spend the aas on something totally useless.
Quote from: LuknaSo who's feedback are they listening to to make these changes? It's definately not mine.
Anyone else in beta suggest such a ridiculous change to Bestial Alignemnt?
Wasn't me.
My feedback consisted of me letting them know that the reuse time is WAY to long, and believe me, it's WAY WAY too long and that the duration was too short. I reminded them of the comparable Ranger aa and that the reuse time on it was much shorter.
So who told them to that the duration was too long?
Or... Are they ignoring the feedback that they asked us to provide?
The ranger aa that has a short reuse/effect is closer to Frenzy of Spirit than this aa, and Frenzy of Spirit does have a short reuse. Rangers have long duration illusions, but those are spells. Maybe that's why they did it this way, I don't know.
As for who they are listening to, if you read the boards you see two camps, one that wants a burst aa and another that wants a long illusion with minor stats. You have people who think turning into warders is the best thing ever and you have people who think it's totally stupid. Just because the end result didn't end up what you thought it was doesn't mean they were ignoring anyone, nor does it mean that it was a tester's idea either.
Anyway, like I said in another thread if the illusion added any worthwhile stats and lasted a long time then you'd always see people in that illusion the way nowadays you always see mages in an elemental form. Putting aside your feelings on how "cool" that is, there are practical issues with it.
I don't want to be cryptic, but if you have ever attacked in wolf form or bear form or scaled wolf form, you'll see that the perspectives vary, and kind of match the animation you'd see in 3rd person view.
So, one moment when you aren't doing anything else, look at how a tiger warder attacks compared to a wolf or a bear. Then imagine yourself inside it's head. Attacking. For a long time.
Quote from: BengaliSo, one moment when you aren't doing anything else, look at how a tiger warder attacks compared to a wolf or a bear. Then imagine yourself inside it's head. Attacking. For a long time.
Hence why I think it ought to be basically free-mana Ferocity with an illusion, that way if I grow sick of the illusion in one way or another I'll be able to drop it and just cast Ferocity instead as I've always done.
Mana free ferocity with an illusion (long lasting and/or short reuse) gives an extraordinary advantage to those people who either like being in illusion form or whose illusion form isn't totally spastic and disorienting when attacking. It would mean that:
1. You could keep Fero up on an extra person since you don't have to keep it on yourself, or
2. During those times when you don't have to keep Fero on a bunch of people, you could still save a fair of mana by having a free cast of our most mana intensive spell.
If that's what it was, then people would be totally stupid not to get it, and not to run around like that all the time. Sure no one is forcing you to buy the aa, but you'd be at a severe disadvantage if you didn't. Because of that, nearly everyone would get it, and if the perspective in warder form wasn't roughly the same for everyone then there would be issues.
Well - lets cut to the chase
What we really need is eye lasers. Big ones. Planet destroying superlaser eye beams.
Aaaaanyway - I would love to look like a tiger every now and then - but the whole shrink issue is going to be a pain.
The duration needs to be long enough that I can go feral, shrink, and get some results out of it - this means that the duration of the thing has to cover 3-4 fights minimum so it becomes worth putting it up before a pull and running shrink.
It needs to represent an overall improvement sufficient to justify the seemingly inordinate AA costs. Currently - 100% damage increase for 30 seconds out of every 7200 seconds is such a tiny blip I would be better off buying more crit AAs.
Of course - we get several quite nice AAs out of GoD - and plenty of other classes get a lame as sheit AA - but still most of our AAs are the same ones that everyone gets, it would be nice if this BL only AA was kinda unique.
Another idea - make this AA 2 hour reuse mass AE and have it do both the melee damage boost and a spell damage boost (or perhaps better, a sisable effective caster level boost to help overcome resists or something). That way - the shrink issue becomes a raid wide problem - and shammies can have something to do with their group shrink spells.
KK so maybe that isnt any good. But the crux of the matter stands - no matter what problems may or may not exist due to short duration illusion, if the end AA has a trivial effect copmpared to its cost, it will be the gimp AA that no one gives a rats about.
" if the end AA has a trivial effect copmpared to its cost, it will be the gimp AA that no one gives a rats about."
This is part of my point though. *IF* this is a maintainable illusion you *will* see people buy it. Heck I'll give 3/5/ maybe 9 AA just for a sustainable illusion. Give it 40 atk 15 min reuse time and 30 min duration and it works. People that want a permanent illusion don't need 100's of atk, double damage, spell avoidance or anything else. We have a *LOT* of aa's at this point for damage, we have bestial fury, Frenzy of spirits, we have lots of ways to burst dps well. I'm very pleased to see the boost in offensive AA's for bst, but this AA could easily be a fun little AA for people. Some people will get a decent boost from it, but it's not earth shaking. I honestly would prefer a mage elemental form type of AA. Heck make it sustainable and give it the bonuses that original BA gave over fero (+atk/saves). If they do decide to make this a burst AA though the illusion basically has to go imo. However, that defeats the entire purpose. People asked for an illusion, no one was asking for another burst AA. In fact the only reason this even became a discussion is because SoE dropped the ball in my opinion and overshot the stats on it, then had to bring it back in line with silly duration/refresh.
There are lots of AA's I want and I like, but BA has simply gotten out of hand imo. There's no need for this to be an issue, or even a balance issue. Giving it an illusion +stats allows everyone to get something that they want. People that want illusion get it. People that are looking for a boost get it, but they don't have to keep it up full time.
Ahh - but it currently isnt a sustainable illusion
I personally would be quite happy if the ONLY thing it did was cast an illusion - it doesnt have to have anything else (except maybe eye lasers)
But I also like to look at things as they are. And as this AA currently is, it is a poor AA for the amount it will cost. Not only is the illusion component saddled with the PITA drawback associated with shrink and terribly short duration, but its cost to improvement ratio is abysmal.
Mind you - I wonder how effective the improve spell resist 20% is? I actually suspect that if I have no chance of resisting a spell, then 20% more of no chance is still no chance, but if it doesnt work like that - it might be kind of interesting (although right off the bat, I will say that even a flat 20% chance to resist even unresistable stuff is actually not that useful - how many times does your typical AE mob proc their AE? thats right - a LOT - getting hit by 4 2k AEs is not really any different to getting hit by 5 of them - the raid will still be popping MGB heals left right and center, or hiding away from the AE all together)
Anyway - its a mostly free world, and I am willing to speak in loud voice that in the current form, this AA is poor value, and as much as I want to look like a tiger, I will be vastly better served to get other AAs before considering this. Still - the AA has changed and changed and changed - which is why I am also happy to point out exactly why I think it is flawed, and what possible alternatives might be available to fix it.
Duration is an obvious one, but given the direction SoE is currently taking it, I dont think it is the right choice. Now maybe SoE will go in some other direction for it. Check out the divine avatar lines on Lucy for something the same yet different (these appear to be the shaman ones).
I dunno - I have a million ideas, too many really. So I basically can only give my thoughts on where the AA is currently at.
Oh - and on duration - 30 seconds makes the illusion suck, but pernamently sustainable means the BL will ALWAYS be in this form, unless there is some downside to it. available for roughly 20 - 25% of the time, with a minimum of 10 or so minutes, seems about right from my point of view.
Blah - as I said - I could just go on about this all day - better I dont.
I'd bet lots of pp that many people who buy this aa as a Vah Shir will be glad it's not sustainable after fighting with it. Don't say I didn't warn you. :)
As for the costs, that's a separate issue, GoD is going to have lots of high cost aa because aa is faster to get now and the devs don't want people to have bought everything within a week.
When looking at aa costs, it almost doesn't make sense to try to compare them to other aa's from earlier expansions -- the scale is just totally different. Comparining them to other aa's from this expansion is more accurate.
Quote from: BengaliQuote from: LuknaSo who's feedback are they listening to to make these changes? It's definately not mine.
Anyone else in beta suggest such a ridiculous change to Bestial Alignemnt?
Wasn't me.
My feedback consisted of me letting them know that the reuse time is WAY to long, and believe me, it's WAY WAY too long and that the duration was too short. I reminded them of the comparable Ranger aa and that the reuse time on it was much shorter.
So who told them to that the duration was too long?
Or... Are they ignoring the feedback that they asked us to provide?
...nor does it mean that it was a tester's idea either....
EXACTLY!
My feedbacks on Beta about BA have all been to make this 2 seperate AAs, 1 long term Illusion with no bonuses and 1 burst DPS. The illusion AA would need to be long term because if it is made 15-30 minute duration I still need to cast shrink that often. When you refresh an illusion it resets your size again. The current version would be fine minus the illusion and long re-use time, say 45-60 minutes.
Even better just make a self-only illusion warder spell with SoW as it's only bonus. Level 15 or 22 and outdoor usable only. 5 versions, 1 for each race. SOE has proven they can do this, AAs and spells are basically the same according to the game AFAIK.
How about they just make Frenzy of spirit not suck instead of giving us more burst DPS AA's?. That way when my RL says "go offensive!" I don't have to hit 7 hotkeys...
:roll:
We have a burst DPS AA already. Make this fero+illusion with a long duration and be done with it. I don't want big upgrades to our power level, all I want is something cool/fun.
The thing that's been bothering me lately is that when you look at our class-specific AAs according to the Test information, we get 2 AA sets for our pet that have been available to other classes in some form(if I recall correctly), a broken AA that is a weak form of a Monk innate skill(remember the SoL manual that said BSTs had special attacks?), and a completely worthless AA for the effect vs. cost.
What ever happened to those class specific AAs we were get back in Luclin? Now we're getting even more rehashed crap. Personally I'd rather have more of the multi-class, useful AAs than Feral Swipe and BA.
And they haven't even bothered to replace Icey Grasp with something else.
/feedback just seems to be going in one ear and out the other.
Quote from: Mahes
What ever happened to those class specific AAs we were get back in Luclin? Now we're getting even more rehashed crap. Personally I'd rather have more of the multi-class, useful AAs than Feral Swipe and BA.
And they haven't even bothered to replace Icey Grasp with something else.
If you would rather have multi-class useful aa's, then what's your complaint? The multi-class ones we get are pretty good.
As for replacing Icy Grasp -- actually, they replaced it with two-multi class, useful aa's that we didn't have before they took it out, and that you said you'd rather have than a crappy bst specific one (and Icy Grasp was exactly that).
That wasn't my point. :P
I'm not complaing about the multi-class ones we have, though DoT crits are fairly worthless considering the duration of our high dmg DoTs, or the lack of dmg from the high duration one.
Anyway, my point was that once again we're getting generic AAs. My point about Icey Grasp was that originally they were going to give us a class-specific AA, but instead of trying to make it something worth a crap, they scrapped it and added 2 generic ones.
Honestly, I have no massive complaints about what we get. All-in-all they're nice. But there's nothing class-defining. Nothing that you can buy and say "OMG look what I can do." I mean...look at rogues for example. Triple backstab. Hello....they just took their biggest offensive skill and upped it considerably. THAT is class-defining. Turning into a cat for 30 seconds so I can hit twice is hard, and try not throw up from the up and down attack motions...it's not really class-defining since it's essentially the ranger AA with another form of bestial frenzy mixed in.
Maybe I am complaining, but is it really so bad to want something unique instead of hand-me-downs and broken, re-hashed AAs?
i love the idea of DoT crits. True, our primary DoTs are short duration but they make up for it with higher damage than a longer duration DoT (like plague). If the fight is long enough just recast it.
Losing Icy Grasp would not bother me. Pet proc root seemed goofy to begin with. I can't really imagine a good use for it. Mob gets rooted and you do what? Move back and let is hammer on pet? We can do that now. Back pet off and nuke? Will break root. Move back and DoT would be plausible but not very mana or time efficient. If it were a long duration root then it might be handy for medding up while a DoT does its work but nothing i would see using often. Look how often Hobble gets used. (I'm one of the dorks that got it right away and regretted it. Decent AA if you have spare points to burn but nothing anyone NEEDS to have).
Quote from: MahesThat wasn't my point. :P
Anyway, my point was that once again we're getting generic AAs. My point about Icey Grasp was that originally they were going to give us a class-specific AA, but instead of trying to make it something worth a crap, they scrapped it and added 2 generic ones.
Maybe I am complaining, but is it really so bad to want something unique instead of hand-me-downs and broken, re-hashed AAs?
Those are perfectly valid concerns/complaints, but they aren't consistent with what you said, is all. You said than rather than have a half-assed, useless bst-specific AA (as examples you used Feral Swipe and BA), you'd prefer to have useful multi-class ones. Maybe you didn't mean it, but that is what you wrote.
Icy Grasp was a half-assed, useless bst-specific aa (it was a super-crappy version of the mage earth pet proc, and many mages actually hate that proc). They replaced it with multi-class ones.
Would it have been better if they replaced it with a "good" bst-specific one? Of course. But if you're going to argue that it's better to give good multi-class aa's than really bad class ones when talking about Feral Swipe and BA, then it's fair to recognize that at least they did EXACTLY that with respect to Icy Grasp.
Mages get some nice pet AAs like shared health.. and something to increase the defense of their pets.
/auction WTT icegrasp for shared health :)
I don't like the sound of the new BA. If it was just a burst DPS AA with no illusion, I would buy it. As it stands, the illusion part will make it a pain in the neck.
If they made it pure illusion, I still wouldn't buy it because I have no desire to look like my warder.
But, trying to please both camps is not gonna work. Make it one or the other. Go full illusion or drop illusion and go full burst AA.
What ever they do with BA, in the end, I won't care. Nobody can make me buy it if it is not what I want. With the addition of Crit dot AA, the warder AA's, and Sinister Strike, I am happy with our up and coming AA's (if they stay as is). I'm just happy icy grasp is gone. ;)
Each one of our new AA's (forgetting about BA for the moment entirely) taken by itself, isn't much. But, put the whole package together, along with the new spells, and it creates a nicely rounded, more powerful beastlord.
Sure, there are a few things I would have liked to have seen, but, we have to leave something for the next expansion.
Nalitra