The Beastlords' Den

Roar of Thunder III (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5843&source=Test)

Doing this poll to find out what the majority of people here think of this.

little bit early for this imo. its the very first stage of beta for the oow aa's, plus even in its current state, whats the reuse, the aa cost, range, etc.

Better too early than too late.

Dunno yet.  I'll know when I find out how many AA it costs and what the reuse time is.

Tell me the recast time, and I'll tell you if I care.

From what I have heard, the recast is 72 minutes at the moment.

I personally wouldn't mind having it as an emergency stun for when my guild is fighting gating mobs and no one remembers to mez/stun.  A level 70 cap would hit quite a few upper end mobs.  Unless you can also use it for some pulling (stun a mob, pull another beside it, and kill the second before the stun wears off), I see very limited use for it.  I wouldn't pay more than 5AA until I had quite a few others bought, that's for sure.

72 mins on a magic based stun that does 1500dd?

omg that is lame.

Nox

9min or 15min.... yea, but as it stands... no, 72min is too lame for a 1500 nuke/stun.

Its something in the completely wrong direction, we should get a deaggro ability and not another aggro creating thing. As it is beastlords are the worst overaggroers on many guild raids and i cant think of using that on raids.
Granted, as an emergency stun on runners or gating mobs it could be useful, but a reuse time > 5 minutes is just bad.

shorter re-use is all i ask for. would be an aa to use for specific situations only though.

I think I would have prefered that toy illusion AA that had poped up for a few days.

WTH? Roar of Thunder needs to be changed...I mean wth are we, gimp SKs?

Even if they lower the refresh timer on it a whole bunch, the stun on it would cuase more unwanted aggro.

We need a way to drop aggro, not gain more.

the only thing we need is a dev with a CLUE (a dev wich PLAYS a bst in the highend game..) :roll:

Lheo, that is why we have a rep.

Nox

:D

There is a big differance between what I can do and what a dev that actually understands a beastlord could do.  I've written a few things latly and tried to explain various problems that come about because of how different beastlords are, but it'd be much better if these things were factored in at the start of making something instead of coming about because of cries for change.  Simple truth is roar of thunder has been discussed a lot since it hit lucy and lots of good ideas have come out, but as it stands now it's just another example of what could be an awesome beastlord only AA that sadly is rendered worthless/annoying in the details.  

This is just beta and lots will change.  Please understand that many things I can't comment on here, but I do comment on and feedback to others.  Those in beta are very welcome to pm/e-mail me and discuss things of issue to them.  I've had several conversations with a few people in beta already.  Hopefully by the time roar goes live it'll be a sought after beastlord only AA.  *shrugs*

If they want to make AA's with 72 minute refreshes make it worth it.

Given the fact that it is three ranks for the 1500dmg and a 72min reuse time, if I can do math that would be less than 1dps only if it critted and did not get resisted or partially.  I'd train it for the nuke crit eye candy.  The stun makes me nervous about aggro though so I'd just use it in XP groups to piss off Mages but only after getting the other new AAs.

Let's not make the mistake of doing paper comparisons ourselves here. Dividing the damage by the recast time is pointless (and if you do that anyway then you should also divide the agro from the 5s stun by the recast time, i.e. negligible)
This isn't supposed to be a dps enhancing AA its a utility AA. Its a one-shot quick damage that can come in very handy in certain situations. I can certainly see myself using this ability during the frequent quad pulls in LDoN missions just so I can kill the first mob more quickly and improve my survival chances (the 5s stun doesnt hurt in that respect either).
Im sure no one will mind the re-use timer going down from 72m and not everyone may find this AA as useful as i do (it'll depend on your playstyle a lot), but i think this ability has potential. I'm going to reserve final judgement until the AA cost is known tho.

/hugs

unless it has a low reuse time, it wont have a spot in the 10 I have for fast use, it will go to page 2 if I get it at all, and surely never I will save anyone with it due to it being on page 2, maybe I ll cast the OoW nuke and crit for over 2k or my wep procs and stops a runner..

a 72 min reuse insta-agro power while we have no means of dropping agro short of death? looking like a pass to me.  SoE is going to have to do something better than this and marginally "better" spells to get me to buy oow

Hypothetical
* It is trained each rank at L66, L68, and L70
* It is going to be 18-24AA to max (3/6/9/ or 4/8/12) which is lenient considering GoD
* LDoN at level 70, mobs will have more HP
* LDoN missions are going to take more than 30 minutes.

Also, if the mob does get stunned and someone else stuns them, their stun duration takes into effect.  So if you stun the mob with it, and then warder stuns the mob with his proc, the mob will be unstunned whenever the proc wears off.

With new pets, chances are they're going to be doing 120DPS without procs maybe.  So spending a generous number of 18-24 to do a manaless 1500DD that may or may not be resisted seems like a waste.  I'd simply remember to push pet attack 10 or 12 seconds earlier and that is free.  If you were to use this in a LDoN, chances are you would only be able to use it once during that one and if you did it early, you might be able to use it late during the next.  With the mobs having more HP, I don't think it'll put a big dent in them.

The new defense AA, Healing AA, Paragon Improvement, spell crits (I think we get them?), pet AA, and possibly the tradeskill AA look promising and are going to be the first abilities I train before this.  If this is supposed to be our 'class' AA, personally I'm going to get it before Innate Charisma.  

I don't understand why the decided to give it to us other than to piss of Mages.  It'll make nice crit nuke eye candy I suppose.  Maybe 20 or 30 of us can get together and make a ghetto MB crew?  It's just a silly AA to spend so much AA on a magic based nuke with a long reuse time when we can nuke crit on a less resisted spell type cold for less.

I could see an occasional use for it with a 72 minute refresh and medium-high AA cost (in situations where I either really, really wanted aggro or desperately wanted to stop a caster getting a spell off) but it almost seems to me like a misplaced new Berserker or Bard AA.  It's certainly not something I'm going to spend points on anytime soon.

Quote from: GennanWith new pets, chances are they're going to be doing 120DPS without procs maybe.

Don't hold your breath on that.  That would be more than a 50% boost over the highest parsed pet we have now (and that was with a bard in the group, if I remember correctly).  I don't see that kind of boost happening.  

QuoteIt's just a silly AA to spend so much AA on a magic based nuke with a long reuse time when we can nuke crit on a less resisted spell type cold for less.

A magic based nuke with a -100 resist mod is generally going to land more often than one of our cold nukes.

Id love to see a shorter re-use time on it myself, but given the fact we complained and complained hard for BA to be shorter they didnt change it.

At this point what would make it better is to make sure its not resisted, while -100 is ok, last thing i want is to blow my 72 min stun and have it reisisted is gonna suck. So if it had an negative adjustment like -500/-1000 that would be ideal.

Look im not saying i dont wanna lobby for it being shorter on the reuse.
But sometimes you gotta ask for something that you think they might give you also.

If it was irresistable or nearly Id prob buy it with the 72 min refresh.

Pretty useless on 72 min timer. And do we really need a stun? I'd prefer it having lower damage and a jolt component rather than a stun.

Maybe 800 damage on 15 min timer + jolt.

72 mins is a LONG time for this effect. Even the new GoD caster weps that have a free clicky nuke/dot only have a 15min reuse time (thats 15 mins per Strike of Solusek or Horror which both do way way better damage than this). 9m would be far more approriate.

I do see situations where a quick burst of damage with a stun, can be of alot of help.

Are we going to see Named mobs who gate, obviously something we don't see too much?

Don't discount what it's being used for until we know what the expansion has in store for us.

I'm sorry, but 1500 dd isn't alot of dmg here...we're talking lvl 70 here...our new nuke moded is almost 1500 dd......the AA is simply useless.

I like this ability or perhaps its intended idea, 72mins is a bit off putting though.

for example whats reuse on a stock standard LoH or Harmtouch these days?

My thoughts would be a 1.0sec stun to level 70, 500-750 min melee hit with a refresh of about 30sec - 1.5min. ie its just another nuke for us.

being melee it can miss and be defended in someway so it certainly wouldnt always hit, also allowing for crits.

alternate it with feral swipe i think it wold be great.

Fibbs

Standard recycle on LoH/HT is 90 mins.

QuoteMy thoughts would be a 1.0sec stun to level 70, 500-750 min melee hit with a refresh of about 30sec - 1.5min.

What you are proposing is a 6-25 dps mana-free nuke with stun. If the dps/AA pt cost of the GoD abilities is anything to go on, are you willing to spent 200 AA pts on it? (which isnt even possible with the 30 unused AA limit)

C'mon guys, get real. Any significant increase in damage in reuse time would be stepping on SKs toes. Its just not going to happen. Frankly im surprised at not hearing cries of outrage from the SK community already. Any significant decrease in reuse time would turn it into a mana-free nuke, but the only way you'll ever get any amount of dps out it is at outrageously high AA cost
Either accept this ability for the utility (with some minor tweaks perhaps) or scratch it altogether and replace it with some entirely different.

/hugs

I could live with it being put down to 1 dmg, if the rest of it remains same and the reuse time is 10 sec.

I wouldnt get this AA for dps, I would get it to save my or someone else ass in a difficult situation.

I must say I'd love to see this go live.

Afcourse this is because I play on a PvP server. It will give me a chance to win now and then  :wink:

In pure PvE it has it's utility. Don't see it as a DPS enhancement.

Wow 5 second stun, that is pretty dang nice.  I see this as being useful when a mob bum rushes your clerics or your raid MA dies and you need a few seconds for the SA to pick up aggro.

Gating mobs of course too.

With OOW and new pally stuns that work up to lvl 70 I expect to see more Pally MA's or teams that can damn near stun lock some of the POP gods.  Sick but true (unless they just make the gods stun immune of course)

I like the idea of changing this to a jolt-style ability instead of a stun.  The last thing I need is more agro.  a manaless 1500DD is nice, but not much since I'm rarely OOM.  the improved mend is more useful IMO.  /shrug.

Personally, if they insist on giving us this ability, I'd like to see a re-use time of about 3 minutes on it.  It'll primarily be used for when things start running or gating out.  Otherwise, it's just too little damage and of limited use to be worth spending AA on.

Quotethe improved mend is more useful IMO. /shrug.

I'd wait til the AA cost and reuse time is found out before stating this.

Well, I did some research and it changed my outlook on this somewhat.

Normal SK Harmtouch is 72 mins.  They can lower that to 36 mins, but they have to spend a fair amount of aa points to do that.  The problem with looking for a big boost to Roar of Thunder is that while it's a fair amount below the max HT for an SK (they can crit for over 10k, if they have the right focus effects and use their 72 min disc -- possibly higher with a bard in group but that's not confirmed), a regular unfocused HT that doesn't crit and without disc running is considerably lower.  For example I just tested with a 65 SK who landed a 3997 crit harmtouch on her 36 min HT (I'm not sure if she had any focus effects).  Roar of Thunder can crit for 3000.

Some of the reuse times proposed here (like 3 mins and such) would totally stomp harmtouch overall.  I don't see how this could possibly have a reuse less than 36 minutes, and I really don't see it going that low either.

That said, I wouldn't shed any tears if they came up with a better idea.

yeah my thinking there was a bit whacky with my version.

I still rate this AA anyways, especially if we get to boost it with other AA's.

I'm all for the more melee based skills though, tomes, kicks, stuff like that.

Only bad thing is where am i going to find the space for the hotkey.......


Fibbs

I rather doubt anything named will be stunable, let alone a raid target.  Unless they are taking the whole expansion the way of ntov with lots of gaters(which would tend to make it very unpopular) Then its reduced to a hot key that lets us steal agro from tanks.  With out current walking of the line(at best) on agro a high damage stun is the thing that would push us over that edge.  So unless we want to develop the reputation that rangers have had of constant death, and all  the jokes that surround that, then this is not the best use of the (seemingly) only unique AA line from OoW.

For a L66+ AA it really needs to be better.

Remember "Harm Touch" is first of all FREE (you get it at L1), it is pretty hard to resist to start with and with the addition of some extra support AA's its possible to turn it into an almost unresistable monster that can critical for over 7200 (unfocused) and has the ability to lifetap for less damage if the SK chooses to (Leech Touch AA) --  Note: Consumption of the Soul AA + Improved Consumption of the Soul AA make the lifetap version of a HT very powerful too. The lifetap healing also has a chance at being criticalled if the SK has the "Theft of Life" AA

================================================
Harm Touch:
10 x lvl + 1 (levels 1 to 40), add 30 x lvl (levels 41 to 60), add 10 x lvl (levels 61 to 65)
At 60: ((10 x 40) + 1) + (30 x 20) = 401 + 600 = 1001
At 65: ((10 x 40) + 1) + (30 x 20) + (10 x 5) = 401 + 600 + 50 = 1051
Source

"Unholy Touch" AA: Adds 450 per skill level, guarantees SCF crit
"Unholy Aura" discipline: Add 50% to HT

Spell Casting Fury:
Without UT: Chance to crit as per your SCF level (add 33%, 66%, 100%)
With UT: Guaranteed crit as per your SCF level

So a general purpose formula could be (HT + UT) x SCF x UA
eg.
Level 65 HT with UA, UT3, and SCF3 (no focus)
(HT + UT) x SCF x UA
(1051 + (3 x 450)) x 2 x 1.5 = 7203

Unholy Aura (disc) + SCF3 (AA) + UT3 (AA) + worn ID4 + Bard song "Rizlona call of Flame" = 8460 max crit
================================================

Re-use time with "Touch of the Wicked" AA at L3 is 36 min.

So in terms of AA cost comparisons:-

Best "Harm Touch"
- Spell Casting Fury 3 (chance to crit non-melee direct damage)
[2/4/6] : 12 AA
- Improved Harm Touch (makes HT *very* hard to resist)
[6] : 6 AA
- Touch of the Wicked (lowers HT reuse time to 36 mins)
[2/4/6] : 12 AA
- Unholy Touch (improved HT damage and guaranteed crit with SCF3)
[2/4/6] : 12 AA

TOTAL: 42 AA

Best "Roar of Thunder"
- Spell Casting Fury 3  (chance to crit non-melee direct damage)
[2/4/6] : 12 AA
- Roar of Thunder
[?/?/?] : ?? (i am guessing a total of at least 24 AA spent to complete)

SPECULATED TOTAL: 36 AA

That nets us an AA with a re-use time of 72 mins that deals 1500DD (base) and can stun up to L70 mobs for 5.0 secs. We can probably correctly assume it will work with spell damage focuses and that it is able to be criticalled for double damage using SCF3. We have no realistic idea of the resist rate but we do know it has a mild resist adjust of -150 and it checks vs magic. So best case scenario we are looking at perhaps around 3600DD max hit with a worn focus and the bard song. A lot of tougher mobs are immune to stun so that component can be ignored on them. There is no guarantee of a critical.

From that data above I conclude that a normal HT is better by at least a factor of 3 (when taking into account the base damage difference, re-use difference, resist rate difference, and guaranteed critical) and indeed a factor of 4 when used with the Unholy Aura disc (re-use: 72 mins). Note that this HT can be achieved at L65 whereas I am willing to place money that Roar of Thunder L3 will be at least L68.

Conclusion
=======
Make this AA better. We are not asking to be shadowknights but 72mins is too long, 36m would be the maximum re-use I would expect from this AA and I am strongly leaning towards 24m for something we might even want to buy and use (even at that re-use HT is still better by at least a factor of 2).

A couple of corrrections:

The resist mod on Roar of Thunder is -100, which isn't nearly unresistable but it's still like having the mob already be tashed and malosed almost (that would be -105 to MR, tash and malosinia would be -120).  If you consider that a lot of mobs are debuffed by other classes (and MR is the most popular debuff that's put on them), this ability is going to be resisted a ton less than our nukes.

Harm Touch is also a shadowknight class ability, and classes are pretty darn protective of their class abiliites.  The closer Roar is to Harmtouch (and it isn't unreasonably close right now), the more reason shadowknights have to get upset.  I don't see SOE making it too much better because they don't want to give the SKs reasons to throw fits.

Roar won't be subject to focus effects.  Harm Touch is SHD/1 whereas Roar of Thunder is Class:NONE.  Which is good because I have enough focus effects to get without worrying about a magic one too.

Whether or not a focus effect WILL work on it doesnt mean you HAVE to get one for it...

I mean, you CAN get a nuke cast time focus...but would you?

Quote from: XarilokWhether or not a focus effect WILL work on it doesnt mean you HAVE to get one for it...

I mean, you CAN get a nuke cast time focus...but would you?

Of course it means I don't HAVE to get one.  I don't HAVE to play EQ.  I don't HAVE to play a beastlord.  I don't HAVE to get any focus effects at all.

All I'm saying is that right now, I have zero incentive to get a magic nuke focus and I like it that way.  I wasn't saying that if a nuke focus worked on Roar of Thunder then I would become all obssessed with it like Captain Ahab.   Heck, technically I already have a magic nuke focus by accident, but at least now I can get rid of that mask without even having to consider the impact of losing the focus on it.

Your example about the nuke casting focus is totally spurious, for reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

umm, if you think its going to be any dps, thats really laughable, the good thing is you can stun something and it might not hit you or someoneelse for 5 seconds,
the DD part could actually be detrimental by putting something into summon mode you dont want

the thing that makes the "super" HT useful is that its unresistable and guaranteed crits with the disc (they dont have many useful discs, so its not like they sacrifice a disc there)

seeing a wizard crit for 6 - 7k with their top nuke regulary puts things into relation maybe ?

or maybe that a beastlord can proc for 1500 quite often and with other weapons for 1250, its just not as much as everyone makes it out to be

to repeat myself, without the damage, I would still take it if I could reuse it in the fashion of protectivespirit.

I don't think it will be DPS.  I'm not impressed with a 1500 nuke because I crit for that all the time with my nukes and procs, and that will only go up with Fury of Magic (although by the same token I'd have the same chance to crit for 3000 with this).  But we know from experience that people are super-pissy about their "class abilities".  Clerics are already whining that someone else might get a 0% "rez" and that is so much worse than their ability it's not even funny.  If they made Roar have a really low reuse time in  its current form it would be more dps overall than Harm touch.  If they got rid of the DD and put the stun on a fast reuse timer then paladins throw a hissyfit.

I'm really only explaining my predictions for what SOE will or won't do.  I'm not saying that the ability makes me happy in my pants the way it is now.  But I can feel it in my bones that they aren't going to make major changes in the lines of some of the suggestions here, because if they do then people would flip out like a truck full of ninjas who just stepped on thumbtacks.

If they changed it completely or came up with a new idea, well that's a different story.

A good, viable warder form/merge would be perfect for a replacement.  How about something that gives our pets an AE attack like rampage for war/zerks?  Pet Affinity 2, instead of being hit by group buffs, your warder shares all the buffs you have on.  How about a reverse version of the Shaman frenzy line?  Give us increased mana regen and spell haste for X tics at the cost of not being able to attack (Great for the pet clerics).  Hell, how about a Pet Healer ability that lets us cast our heals on Mage/Necro/Shaman/Druid/SK/Chanter pets?

There are so many options that would be fun and useful where as this is not.  A stun once every hour and a quarter is worthless, because you'll always be saving it for desperation.  Same with a 1500dd every 72.  Saved for emergencies only.  Combine the two and it's even less because you're thinking "Gosh, I'm low health, but if I burn the nuke I could survive and the next guy be a caster who gates on me and brings a train when I have no stun left, oh gosh, what do I do?"

I am catching the drift on not wanting to stomp on the SK ability. I do see the similarities between HT and RoT and the dangers of unbalace by giving a hybrid class the ability to cast a mana free nuke.

But as with most of our abilities that we pay more AAs for less performance and less potential than other classes, why can't this follow the same lines. Make it fairly expensive maybe around 30 AA and make another AA for say 15 the shortens the timer on it to 30 min being the lowest.

So with it all being said and done the SK HT whacks a mob for 7200 and ours might hit em up for 3600 if all the stars align and you have paid your tithe and all that.

45 AA's spent for ours and 42 spent for theirs and we get something we can use more often but it still does not even come close to outshining the SK HT.

Unfortunately, you can't use aa cost as a means of balance because once you purchase the aa, you have it forever.  To use an extreme example, suppose druids had an aa that cost them 30 per level, and gave them a 25% res per level, so that at level 3 (the max) they would have paid 90 points for a 75% rez.  While that is a lot of work, the end result is that over a long period of time you will have a bunch of druids with a 75% rez which could cause balance problems.

In other words, aa cost can slow the time it takes for things to become unbalanced, but it doesn't stop them from becoming that way.  Only the relative power of the abilities themselves can do that.

That is a good point on the cost issue to an extent, however as you said that is an extreme measure. The issue I was trying to address was the SK community seeing the RoT as being another means mudflation.

Where if we had a 30 min 12 AA 3600 critable nuke they might have some room to complain that we are being given some too easily.

And the other argue ments were that if the AA count was too high it would not be worth the time for the effort for the reward.

Yes you are right that once you have invested your 45 AA you have the ability forever. But in the interest of balance what have we gained? A 1500DD 5 sec stun that may be just as easily be resisted as it might crit once every 30 mins. (IF the AA's were put into action as I have previously suggested.)

IMO that is not too shabby. But I may be a little short sighted, and I would like to read other thoughts on this topic.

I for one like it, but more for the eye candy than anything. But all in all it feels like another BA tool. It looks fun but 72 min reuse is a bit steep for a flash in the pan ability.

I dont know what looks fun about a 1500 nuke once per hour or whatever, it will be piddly dps, who brags with 0.34 (72 min) or 0.7 dps (36 min) extra.

Its a BS AA to begin with, yet we only get 2 class specific ones, so 50 pct bein shite and we got to careful look if we DARE to step on anyones shoes when tryin to get something useful /boggle.

Here's what concerns me, and I really, really hope the Beta BSTs mention this:

Range: 50

I didn't notice that til today and was looking forward to the utility aspect of a 5 sec stun up to level 70.  Now...forget it.  Feral Swipe 2.0.  FS being one of the crappiest AA ever given to BSTs.

Please feedback that, at the very least, if you're in OoW beta.

So many things I can't say, but what I can say is I'm truely hopeful that this will be changed.  There have been a lot of good ideas passed along and many things explained.  I'm not sure what will come of it, but I can atleast assure you that concerns and suggestions have been brought up.  *shrugs* It's not much, but it's all I can do atm unfortunatly.  8(  Please keep talking about the AA and what you'd like to see, but don't break the NDA or anything.  Roar has a lot of potential and I am hopeful that by the time omens goes live many beastlords will want to pick it up fairly soon.

Changes i'd like to see to roar:

A) change recast down to 30 sec., which is about the same recast time as our nukes, I believe.
B) Replace stun w/ deaggro = 1.5-2 times the dmg caused by the AA. So, if we crit it for 3k, it erases 6k of aggro, which i'd assume would give the AA a net decrease of aggro approx. equal to the dmg caused.
C) Make it unresistable.

This makes the AA dependable, consistant, usefull, and will help us balance our class out dps wise in the high end game when compared to other dps classes.

That's just making it way too good for the AA.  A refresh time of 30 seconds and still doing that much damage is just insane.  I mean that'd be ~50dps boost hehe.  

Also the aggro of a 1500 base damage nuke for us isn't near 6k in aggro.  That'd result in a net reduction of around 4k aggro.  

The idea of making this a deaggro AA, or actually adding a pure deaggro AA has been brought up.  Shortening the re-use time has been brought up, etc.  I'm certain the AA will change from what was originally discussed in this thread, so just have to wait a bit more and see.

Something to keep in mind... our level 70? nuke is supposed to be 1073? damage... So, adding 400 points isn't that big of a deal really, esp when it's magic based and probably highly resistable, and I'm sure the stun will be resistable innately by some mobs... It is manaless and instant, so thus should have a semi-long reuse, but I'd be more inclined to say 12-15minutes.  I'm in beta but haven't had the time to actually play it as planned, I'll get it /fedback though.

Just what we need: an AA that doesn't do much for us whil simultaneously pissing off paladins, SKs, and nuking classes!  Weee!

Until I played my beastlord my mains were a paladin & cleric so I know a bit about stunning :)

In an xp group you use stuns to interrupt a spell, usually gate, or to pull fast aggro.  We don't need help pulling aggro and a 72 minute refresh is useless for spell interrupts.

In a raid the targets are almost always immune to stun and, if they aren't, you have enchanters, clerics, and probably 3 dozen bored paladins who could do the stunning for you.

So we don't need a stun at all IMO, but no one needs THIS stun.

The damage component is too similar, on paper, to harm touch.  A mana-free nuke is fun but when the total DPS it adds is so low and it's tied to a massive aggro-generating effect like stun for a class that wants less, not more, aggro we just don't need it.

Throw this out.  Make Roar of Thunder a jolt as others have suggested: The beastlord summons spirits of thunder that confuse his foe, making it forget about him.  That would be useful and I can't think of any sane reason to complain about it if I were another class.

--Kreseth

I have mixed feelings about this skill. In theory I like the idea. Being a Troll, I have often remarked at how I would like to look fiercer and more evil like the mobs in LDoN with the sharp teeth and fangs. The Orcs in LDoN are spot on for what you would expect of them!

So on that line I like the idea of being able to ROAR! I wouldn't mind seeing us get 2 types of Roar. One that is this 1500 DD reuse 3 mins that knocks opponents to the ground or makes them FD like the Cursed in Ssra. That way they aren't stunned as such they are simply delayed which will stop casters but not create agro like stun. Now, cos I said 2 Roars, I would love to see us get a Roar that does DD to all mobs AE style for say 250 DD reuse 3 mins and makes low level creatures run in fear of their lives. Maybe they could just make these into Discs so that we are limited on total use by our endurance level. This would furthermore add benefit to having a Shaman around with Endurance buffs.

GOD NO!

Youre asking for an AA similar to Turn Undead!  And that hasnt worked in... forever!

How about instead of the fear one a unresistable AE 2-3 second stun (no DD) reuseable every 30 mins?  Kind of an "Oh crap, I'm surrounded and I can't outrun these guys" situational spell

You mean like the enchanter color line?  Yay, we get to do something on AE clears!  Deagro please :).

Once every 30 mins is not gonna have us doin anything on clears.  But I want a deaggro too, I was just giving a suggestion to make George's idea work

Well if I ever get the levels needed to get ROT as it stand now I wont
get it till I have spent every AA I can in every other AA ability  that we
get even improveing my stats to max with AA's. Now if it lowered agro as others have said I would work hard to make the lvl's needed to get it.

I just want a non-damaging jolt with a ~1min recast.  That's all.  No huge damage, no stun, no fear, no summoning of cookies and short beers...

Just give me a way to avoid getting blown up when the tank dies, thanks.  I'm tired of the rogue beside me who's doing 2-3x the DPS getting to laugh at my corpse.

On second thought, keep this the way it is....It's really really ubah for pvp, and exactly what BSTs need in pvp. If i was still on a pvp server, i'd be in big support for this.

We still need a deaggro abiltity though.

warriors get a very nice deaggro AA, maybe we should trade

warriors are getting a DE agro AA? /boggle. They are always  bitching about needing MORE agro.  I guess under some sort of bizaar lagic it could make sense, but i dont see it

this is the final rank

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5911&source=Test

too funny

There has been no official confirmation of whether that aa:

a) will be on the final warrior aa list,

b) was ever intended to be on the warrior aa list (i.e., even if it appeared, whether is was a bug), or

c) is going to be on any class aa list

Unfortunately, no one can refute or confirm the statement that "Soothing Words" is supposed to be a Warrior ability without breaking the NDA, which is precisely the reason we should be more careful about discussing beta infoz in the first place.

Still though, when you put on your detective hat and look at what facts we do have, does this *really* look like a warrior ability to anyone?

My question is this:

Why would Warriors want another Deaggro ability, isn't the everfailing Taunt button enough?

In the interest of expanding my horizons and trying to see the other side of the coin, I have been trolling the other class boards. I really had no idea that we were hated so much.

For the most part I feel the vast majority is the classical CLass Envy routine, but on others it seems that it is just the popular thing to do....Hate the BL.

I have read a few posts here that express concerns of upsetting other communities with the proposed AA. I say it does not matter what we get. With the attitudes expressed in other forums, no matter what upgrade we get someone is going to be upset.

If we get a better heal Pallies and Rangers are gonna scream. Better slow, Shammies are gonna hate us more. Stronger pets? Heheh we all know our mage counterparts are gonna deficate themselves and forget about pet heals we are already on someone's bad list there. We keep asking for Jolt, but do we know who is gonna be p.o.'d if we get that? The only way other communities are going to be happy with us is if beastlords do not get any upgrades or any skills that have any similarity with another class unless the other classes get theirs first in a more spectacular fashion.

All in all I like the idea of the new AA. I do not think it has to make sense or have to be a part of a previous spell line to be a valid addition. It is a cool thought to break the mold a little instead of cookie cutting the whole game: faster harder stronger add stats add resists etc etc.

Most people say we don't need another aggro booster. We want deaggro. I agree, we do need to have something to deaggro mobs, but hey sometimes I really really want the mobs attention and right then, not after a couple casts and beating on it for a few seconds.

I know there are other things we can do to accomplish this but I like the flash in the pan kind of stuff. The collection of little buttons to mash with some ooooo and awww effects. It is something fun I hope it stays just for that, the fun factor.

I would like to add there does seem to be some interest in the PvP arena. So maybe the hardcore raiders will not use it some of us solo'ers and main groupers might or might not get it and the PvP folks will lust for it. Isn't that the way it is with most things? Play style rules all.

Sadly the vast majority is mis-information driven class envy or nerf_bat_syndrome driven.  It's one thing to make a fact based arguement for one one ability should remain within one class or area, but it's quite another to use hype, paranoia and flat out lies to try and reach it.  

Every single day I have to deal with posts about how beastlords should be nerfed because....

- Our pets are the best
- Our pets take less damage than mage pets
- Our melee damage is "almost" as high as monks
- Our pet heals are "overpowered"
- We are the "best" solo'r
- etc.

It goes on and on and it's total BS in well over 75% of the cases.  

The other thing that gets me is every class in EQ talks about wanting something new and how EQ is out of fresh ideas and everything is just old spell/ability + 10% or whatever.  Yet when beastlords are given a dd + stun (like their pet procs) with 3 increasing levels of damage everyone jumps all over it.  They have no idea of the refresh time at first, they have no idea of beastlord aggro issues or anything else.  All most of them seem to know is they've heard beastlords are "overpowered" and it sticks.  The details of refresh time, mana cost, aggro, etc never get mentioned.  

Roar has good potential in PvP and even in a lot of other situations.  A few changes and it could easily be a very solid beastlord AA.  I'm still very hopeful they'll do something about aggro issues, but we'll have to wait and see what happens with omens and then go from there.

The recast timer has to go way down.  Yes, the aggro power of this aa would have to be watched in raid situations, just like the use of our dots.  I would buy this aa because I do a lot of grouping or duoing where I do most of the tanking.  This ability would be a great one for pulling a mob off a screaming healer or for separating mobs for rooting/mezzing if more than one gets pulled.

I would use this one a LOT.

I like the idea of this AA.  For one it doesnt step on too many toes, and the ones it does not too hard.  I do think the recast needs to be reworked or add support AA to lessen the recast time (a la SK HT AA).  These ideas have been mentioned, already.

I too agree, BL's need a Jolt ability.  I would gladly trade this for a reliable Hate reducer.

/shrug

My $.02...but with inflation prolly worth much less.

That "Soothing Words" looks kinda like a ranger or druid ability. Would be *awesome* if they gave it to us also (it would fit us fairly well too from a RP perspective).

Imho its definetly not a Warrior ability.

QuoteEvery single day I have to deal with posts about how beastlords should be nerfed because....

~~ ~~

It goes on and on and it's total BS in well over 75% of the cases.

And we care what they say why? I just laugh at them. Until these people show me that they play a Beastlord as their main and have soloed, grouped and raided their way up from nothing inch by painful inch until like me they have over 360 AA's and have earned a good level of gear and ability then I will give their opinions the same level of credit as I would a complete stranger who walked into my home and started telling me how I should run my life -- ie. absolute zero.

SoE obviously doesn't give a damn what those people are saying so why should we? They are just spouting meaningless pointless drivel into an uncaring void.

Roar of Thunder  Detail | History | Raw Data  

 
Slot Description
1:  Decrease Hitpoints by 1500
2:  Stun(3.00 sec/70)

 
Mana: 0 Casting Time: 0
Recast Time: 0 Fizzle Time: 0
Resist: Magic Resist Adjust -100 Range: 50 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any AE Range 25
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Targeted AE
Spell Type: Detrimental Category: Unknown(-99)
Source: Test 08/27  

NOOOO WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!?!?!?!

I think most every enchanter and bard is ready and trembling now.  As we inadvertnatly hit the wrong hotkey and break 5 mezzes killing a raid or something, or hear an all out dps call and someone smacks it without thinking about repercussions...

OMG, stun duration is 2 sec shorter now, i dont care about that, but its a targeted ae? Thats just plain stupid, without the damage it might work but with the added dd its the best way to kill a group or a raid or just train yourself.

ok... lets forget about this AA, may it burn in ...

Garbage. 72 minute recast? Stupid. AE? Even more brainless.

Gimme all skills cap to 252. I 'll bust my AA's for that.

They made it an AE?  :roll:  Time to change my vote from "Make it better" to "I'd never buy this."  :(

I go away for a few hours and this happens /boggle.  They were on the right track and uhhh... Sigh it's not even PB AE lol.  I'm lost atm lol.  I'm taking care of a few things atm, but I really want roar to be a good AA and it just took a severe turn for the worse.  *shrugs* It's the weekend, but I'm probably going to start another thread and try to get this straightend out.

There's a thread up here...

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=37503#37503

Please keep discussing the AA here if you want and in the other threads.  In the thread linked about please just copy/paste the fields and reply with your answers.  I'd like to get some solid data on where various beastlords stand on this AA atm.  DEaggro and other issues are being handled seperately.  Please stay within the bounds of roar as a dd-type of AA and let me know what you think is reasonable/needed/useful.  Thanks.

Heh, I kinda like the targeted AE.  It has a small range, so it's not gonna aggro every mob in creation and you can use it to pull a couple mobs off of someone, if they are stacked.  Most of the time it's only going to hit one target because of the small range.  I wouldn't use it with 4 summoning, quad-2000 mobs in camp, but I can think of more times I'd use this than I would have used it before.

I posted in Tastian's correspondant poll but I'll mention here why I chose as I did.  

Although a manaless dd is a cool idea what I need more than that is a way to do a little bit of crowd control when I solo and also save my friends butts now and again.  (not to mention my own cute furry behind :)  ).  

I figure this isn't aimed at agro reduction and frankly I can't see why 'roaring' would reduce agro.  I'd rather see a 'Purr' type AA that 'relaxes my target' and makes them hate me less.  (I know all beasties aren't kitties but anything can purr, heck my car purrs...)

What I don't want to do is break mez or root.  If I'm not mistaken I can stun without doing that.

Well, my post on Tastian's thread about what we'd like Roar of Thunder got deleted.  Here is what it said:

Damage: None

Stun: None

Refresh time: None

Resist Adjust: None

Range: None

Type(PB AE, Targeted AE, or Single): None

But I guess me voicing my opinion that I dont want it altered, but want it removed and replaced was out of line.

I copied your post and move it to a thread.  I linked that thread in my post and it's already been quoted.  I made it over the top clear what the point of the thread I was making was.  I'm sitting here going "If we get pizza what does everyone want for toppings" and your post "ta hell with pizza I want cheese burgers".  There are already a bunch of threads about cheese burgers and I made that again over the top clear in my post.  Your post simply didn't belong in that thread.  In case you couldn't find where I moved your post to 3 spots down from the original thread it's right here...

http://www.beastlords.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3412

If they're going to keep it along the stun/dd line I'd like to see the stun back to 5sec and single target stun for 150-200 with a refresh every 2.5-3min so it can't be used more than twice a fight.

I hardly think that'd make overpowered or pointless as it currently stands.

I'm with everyone else in that I can't fathom why they gave this to us. If it stays ae that would be bad bad bad bad bad...

Quote from: Braedan_VZIf they're going to keep it along the stun/dd line I'd like to see the stun back to 5sec and single target stun for 150-200 with a refresh every 2.5-3min so it can't be used more than twice a fight.

I hardly think that'd make overpowered or pointless as it currently stands.

I'm with everyone else in that I can't fathom why they gave this to us. If it stays ae that would be bad bad bad bad bad...

Heh take a gander about what its current refresh time is, might want to think big. 2.5 to 3 min refresh time would own ;)

yea 72min still? That's why the dd component is as high as it is.
If they lessened the dd to 150-200 range they might not have a problem with lowering it's refresh rate to something reasonable.

I actually wouldnt mind seeing this info transferred to feral swipe and think up something else for it.

We still don't know if the reuse on the current version will be 72 mins, btw. :)

You'll never get a mana-free ability that stuns mobs up to the same level as a pally stun and for a full second longer, and refreshes every 3 minutes.  It's just not gonna happen.

I also don't see why there's such an emphasis on when you can't use it (like in the middle of a pack of mezzed mobs).  Clearly there are times when you can.  If people can't think of a time when landing up to four 1.5-3k (depending on crits) nuke stuns at once would be useful, then they aren't thinking hard enough in my opinion.  There is a significant downside to it (i.e., you don't want to use it at the wrong time), but there is a significant downside to things like lifeburn and manaburn too.

And in an era of simply pressing buttons every time they refresh, this is something that actually benefits more if you think about how to use it, and is very stackable meaning that if you have 5 beastlords with this ability then you are better off than if you just had one.

As for the other two largest concerns, i.e., dps and aggro reduction, keep in mind that we still have quite a few placeholder spells and for all we know one of them will be something like jolt.  On the dps front, we're getting new nukes, new dots, new pets, new damage increasing aa, new damage tables and new weapons, and there's only so much "pure dps" that needs adding, really.

Finally, for those concerned about the reuse (which isn't final), I'll only say that I just finished up a hard Guk LDoN, and not once did I feel the need to use frenzy of spirit or paragon, and those have reuse times of 12-15 mins.  There was a time in the adventure where if I'd had roar of thunder in its current form (i.e., as a targeted AE) then I would have saved two deaths.   As it turns out, I only would've needed to use it once for that adventure anyway, and it would be up again as I type this (that assumes a 72 minute reuse, which I cannot emphasize enough is not necessarily what the final reuse will be, and it's not necessarily what the reuse time that is currently being tested is either).

What I think most people are trying to do(myself included) is to head this "problem" off before it starts.  Yes, some see it akin to the Tureptan Spirit problem.  Bengali, I am sure that you could be one of the proponents for it to change(not saying you are, but you could be b/c youd likely not use it), but you wanting it changed gips the lower levels who would use it.  So yes, each spell created "could" have a use.  Hell, Im sure Sentinel could have a use for something, somewhere, sometime but that doesnt mean it should stay in the game for that reason.  Turn Undead has a limited use in the game and has been around for quite a long time.  Yet you could probably count the number of clerics who use it on one hand.  We're all allowed to voice our opinions as this is a Community board.  No one is right, no one is wrong but we can all have an opinion because we all pay to play this damned game.

(you were the previous poster so I picked you, nothing personal Beng)

I'm the last person to discourage people from voicing their opinion, and I never said anything remotely resembling anything that would lead people to believe that I don't think they should speak their mind about the game.  I'm just doing the same, which is stating my own opinion and pointing out where I think people are overreacting based on incomplete information and a lack of imagination.

Take turn undead for example.  That aa is busted.  It's busted because you have to be level 59 to get it, and from the moment you train it, it won't work on level 55+ mobs at all, which means you are forced to bottom feed with it.  That, combined with the fact that it only works on a single mob type in the first place means that it is pretty darn useless unless you're farming for bone chips or something.

That's still different from Roar, which works on all mob types.  Even those immune to stun will still be hit by the DD.  It will have some effect on any mob in the game provided that they aren't immune to magic.

It's also different from Tureptan Spirit, which isn't a bad spell idea in itself (heck the community REQUESTED it), but it drops in a spot that currently makes it inaccessible to the people who really want to use it.   As for changing it, my suggestion would be to make it so that it's group kragg and infusion, which helps the beastlords who group with non stat-capped people and those who group with people who are stat capped and don't have shaman focus.  Not like that's remotely relevant to this discussion but you're the one who brought it up.

Again, that too is different from Roar.  Even level 70s who get it may find a use for a 1.5k DD every x minutes, unlike many who got tureptan spirit.  

I respect everyone's right and desire to want to head off "problems", but I think they should actually think them through instead of having a knee jerk reaction to them.  Here's a laundry list:

1.  "We need a way to shed aggro, not gain it."":   Absolutely correct.  But perhaps the better solution to aggro problems is for one of the PH spells to be a jolt-type spell, or a jolting blades-type hate lowering proc.  Perhaps instead of a "Cinder Jolt" spell, beastlords need n "Icy Jolt" spell.  That's just a thought and suggestion from one guy, me.   Maybe we're barking up the wrong tree by getting bent out of shape because this doesn't lower aggro when in reality there are plans for us to control aggro with a spell.

Then again, maybe there are no such plans and aa is the way to go.  But if you look at the way they design aa abilities they just don't design most of them with fast reuse times, and the shorter the reuse time on the ability, the less useful the effect is going to be.   We can ask for a deaggro aa all we want, and Vegas odds are still that we end up with something that we can't use that often or that doesn't do much when we do use it.  So people should keep that in mind.

2.  "I don't want to break mez with it":  Good call.  If you don't want to break mez with it then don't break mez with it.   This isn't an ability with an AE range of 400 where it's guaranteed to break mez every time you use it.   It has an ae range of 25.   To put that in perspective, Feral swipe has a range of 50, and everyone complains that they can't hit anything with it unless they are right on top of it.   This AE has half of that range, which means that it's not that hard for people to be able to use this out of mez range if they are paying attention.   Just because it can be AE doesn't mean you have to use it on multiple targets, either.

Again, there are going to be some times when you absolutely can't use it.  I personally don't think people should be "sad" and "angry" (words that people have used in reference to this aa) because they can't use it in the middle of a pack of mezzed mobs.   I have a crapload of abilities that I can't use on mezzed mobs.  It's not the end of the world.   Again, that's just my opinion.

Still, be careful what you wish for, people.  If we want a no damage stun we have to ask ourselves what happens when we fight mobs that are above level 70 and our aa no longer does anything at all.   We have to ask ourselves what happens when we're fighting mobs that are *below* level 70 and are immune to stun and our aa no longer does anything.   We have to ask ourselves how often we need to stun mobs that are already mezzed anyway (which is what people's fear is, that they will wake up mezzed mobs by using this).  If we want a 5 second stun, be prepared to hear "no, we don't want beastlords to have a stun that lasts longer than the paladin's level 70 ancient stun."

Similarly, if we want a single target DD and nothing else, fine.   But just because we want something with a reuse of 3 mins or whatever doesn't mean it's going to happen.   The most likely thing to happen is that it goes back to being a single target DD with no stun and the same reuse.   And then it's just another lame ability to put on a hotkey that doesn't really do anything.   You know we're not going to get something like harmtouch, so again temper your expectations.

3.  "It should be a DD ability that adds ~3 dps which wouldn't be overpowering in the least":  Well, that depends on who you ask.  Coprolith warned that we should not fall into the same trap that others have and just divide x by y and get z, which we then conclude is not overpowering because z is a small number.  Every 72 minutes an SK can land a 10k harmtouch, which is ~2.3 dps and pretty insignificant as far as sustained dps.   But the power of HT isn't in the sustained dps it provides, now is it?  (note to SKs: I'm not trying to imply that HT is overpowering).

4.  "This ability isn't going to help me when I'm trying to stop a mob from gating, because it will just cast gate again while I'm waiting for the reuse":  Except when the 1500 to 3000 points of damage you do, plus the 3 second stun, gives you enough time to kill the mob before it gates.

5.  "A stun isn't useful unless I can use it 2-3 times a fight":  Well, I gave an example of an everyday situation where that isn't the case.  I was in a LDoN mission, we got two adds that killed the cleric and tank before the bard could lock them down.  If I'd had roar I could've stunned those two adds while simultaneously killing the almost dead mob that we were fighting.  That would have given the bard time to mez and even if the mez was resisted I would've had aggro instead of one of the others, and protective spirit would have bought us a ton of time to get things under control.   That's not some esoteric situation where the aa is only useful when Lodizal and Stormfeather are both up and facing north-by-northwest at high tide during the summer solstice.   It's not even as rare as being a level 65+ player in a room full of sub-55 undead mobs.

6.  "We should have gotten one of the other aa abilities we suggested instead, since we didn't ask for a DD stun ability.":  Hey, don't look at me,  none of my suggestions for proposed OoW abilities were DD/stuns either.  Again, I'm just betting that it's not all that likely that there will be a radical change 2 weeks before the expansion and all of a sudden we get some entirely different aa.

Anyway, my opinion is still that roar of thunder in its current form on Test is considerably more interesting than people are giving it credit for.   This aa is not the solution to all beastlord problems, nor is it an ability that is going to make people stand up and say, "wow get a beastlord so he can roar at stuff!"   To me, the cool thing about it is that the damage part of the stun is both a blessing and a curse -- which means that because there is some risk to using it the reuse time doesn't have to be insanely high nor does it have to be so gimped that it only works in one zone or something.

I dont think I will buy an AA I can fire that rarely (and surely not to impress some low levels or use it once per LDoN), I d be probably better of with feral swipe for dps which is laughable. (stopping a runner ? or a gater ? hahahaha yea lets see how quick I can dig out that dusty ability once in a blue moon)

As it is I wish they would scrap the AA and give us a copy of the GoD AA MGB timer reduction AA.

I guess I am also odd man out opinion wise on this AA.  I kind of like it.

Yeah, its situational, but, even with a long reuse timer, it gives us an ability we didn't have before.  

Also keep in mind, with a the new expansion,  this ability could actually be designed with a purpose in mind.  A specific role that will arise in OOW that we would be equiped to handle.  

I can think of a lot worse things we could end up with if we push to have this changed.  

Nalitra  [/img]

Quote from: NalitraI can think of a lot worse things we could end up with if we push to have this changed.

Nal, you're a prophet. :)

IMO, refresh timer is 10mins or less.. I don't want another BA aa.. nice and pretty but really no usefulness except on raids.  Seriously, I put BA on my third hotkey page and I only really use it when the other beasts in my guild want to liven up a raid.
One thing I'm going to have to really try is if it completely mem-blurs a mob if you are <2250aggro hehe... FD! =P

Last I looked it was 15 minutes, guess that ok. rank 1 = 5 AApts

Last I looked it was 15 mins, but only 3 for rank 1.  I think that's fairly reasonable.  There are still a couple tweaks I would have liked to see.  As it is though it's atleast reasonable and almost every beastlords I've talked with from beta plans to pick it up pretty early on in their progression(atleast the first rank).  Even if you didn't care for the deaggro from a dps to AA ratio the first rank atleast is more efficent than warders fury1-5 or warders alacrity 3-5 for most people.