Once again I was bored (I seem to get alot done when bored) and figured I wanted to see what spires do, so I copied myself to Test, one thing led to another and,
http://www.camikazi.us/beastlord/spires/stats.html that was the results.
Intense.
If at all possible, could you add spellcasts (just numbers - 30 Wild Spirit Strikes, 20 Second Spire Strikes, 10 Vaxtzn strikes) since they are missing from your pet parse?
Quote from: Inphared on May 25, 2009, 03:05:46 AM
Intense.
If at all possible, could you add spellcasts (just numbers - 30 Wild Spirit Strikes, 20 Second Spire Strikes, 10 Vaxtzn strikes) since they are missing from your pet parse?
I noticed that too, they did not show up since it was only me so Spell Awareness wasn't active. I will look through logs and post them here, will add them to webpage later on.
Ok, the first 15 min proc, no Spire the pet procced Epic 2.0 (200) 184 TImes and Vaxztn (488) 116 times
Epic 2.0 = 36800
Vaxztn = 56608
Total = 93408
The second Parse, Second Spire (2245) procced 80 times, Epic 2.0 (200) 191 and Vaxztn (488) 89 times
Epic 2.0 = 38200
Vaxztn = 43432
Second = 179600
Total = 261232
Warder did 2.8 times more proc dmg with Second then without.
Before I continue, I want to say I'm not trying to discredit your parses, just merely gathering information that I didn't see.
For the second spire parse, is that fifteen entire minutes of him having second spire, or just fifteen minutes, clicking it whenever it's up?
Quote from: Inphared on May 25, 2009, 03:25:29 AM
Before I continue, I want to say I'm not trying to discredit your parses, just merely gathering information that I didn't see.
For the second spire parse, is that fifteen entire minutes of him having second spire, or just fifteen minutes, clicking it whenever it's up?
It's 10, 90 second parses, since buffs tick down on pets in Arena. No nothing changed at all between the parses, I recast every buff before I did next parse to make sure everything was identical. I sent pet in right after clicking Second (had a hotkey setup to do it) and stopped pet as buff dropped (watched for the drop message and watched timer on buff).
This is an eye opener for sure. I need to check my numbers now. I have pretty much put Spire 1 and 2 WAY back in my hotkeys and always used tier 3, solo or otherwise. I take it that Spire 3 does little to nothing to our warder as well? I really want to say, this can't be true... I mean my alt is a necro and his 3rd spire with his COA chest is simply a retarded stupid DPS combo. You would think there is a reason to get the all the previous spires etc to arrive at the 3rd expecting it to be leaps and bounds above the rest.
Thank you for your time on this Cami. Will try it out myself now for a bit.
I used the 2nd spire a lot more my self for a long time. reasion is my pet is non stop attacking I on the other hand am casting spells as often as I can so for me the first spire don't get the full effect because to hold off casting Nukes or our wolf pet for 1 min to me would be a bigger loss in DPS then it worth.
If you end up testing these again I would say try an all out chain cast like you would on a raid with out spire and then again with spire and see how much DPS you lost by not casting vs what gain with spire running.
As much as I hate to say it our melee has become 2nd to our casting these days and as Mages and nerco get thier spell boosted we keep getting melee aa that just don't compare. I think the proc on our pet was a great idea because it dosn't effect us in any way letting us do what we like and still get full effect.
Quote from: bobokatt1970 on May 25, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
This is an eye opener for sure. I need to check my numbers now. I have pretty much put Spire 1 and 2 WAY back in my hotkeys and always used tier 3, solo or otherwise. I take it that Spire 3 does little to nothing to our warder as well? I really want to say, this can't be true... I mean my alt is a necro and his 3rd spire with his COA chest is simply a retarded stupid DPS combo. You would think there is a reason to get the all the previous spires etc to arrive at the 3rd expecting it to be leaps and bounds above the rest.
Thank you for your time on this Cami. Will try it out myself now for a bit.
Spires between classes are in no way equal, even the ones that are supposed to add about same amount of DPS, like our first spire. From what I heard devs planned that the Skill Damage Amount Spires were to add about the same DPS for all classes, but that is obviously off if you just look at some numbers. Ours adds 42 per hit, Rangers version adds 45 per hit, that right there should tip you off, since Rangers swing more and are more accurate then us their Spire adding more per hit means they get a lot more DPS out of it then we do from ours.
I believe the devs intended each Spire to be useful in different situations, now I can see a use for First and Second, but can't find a Situation in which Third should be used, the mods are just not big enough for it to be parsable beyond the margin of error even in a melee group.
So third spire is broken? 2nd is best in your opinion?
Quote from: jitathab on May 26, 2009, 12:35:28 PM
So third spire is broken? 2nd is best in your opinion?
It's not broken, the mods do work, its just the amounts they added are too small to see any difference. I kept hearing the magical 300 DPS from the group Spires, if that is true, ours is way far off the mark, but I doubt many of the spires are giving the returns the devs stated they were aiming for.
it does have stacking issue with shm 3rd spire (idiot shm I was grouped with decided to pop hers despite my announcing several minutes prior I was going to hit mine).
The 2nd spire deal is honestly a real shocker. I thought we'd seen issues with it previously such that it wasn't really proccing very often because of the 2 other typical procs we have on the pet (cast & 2.0 click) interfered with it getting down to checking that spell for proc (i.e. it would do the check on vaxtn, then on 2.0, then getting to 2nd spire to check if it would fire, with 2.0 typically being the primary fire). Please correct my thoughts on that if I'm off base in regards to proc firing.
I'll have to start replacing 3rd on my list of things to use.
Another thought: I have 1st tied into my discing hotkey atm, with intent to also hit BA after EF fades. Since 1st is merely an add-on to the dmg formula, unaffected by any foci, abilities, etc., would it be of more benefit really to just replace the 1st spire trigger line with 2nd spire? (I also need to get in habit of clicking the bp in similar time frame too, but that's a different story)
Quote from: Kanan on May 26, 2009, 05:23:02 PM
Another thought: I have 1st tied into my discing hotkey atm, with intent to also hit BA after EF fades. Since 1st is merely an add-on to the dmg formula, unaffected by any foci, abilities, etc., would it be of more benefit really to just replace the 1st spire trigger line with 2nd spire? (I also need to get in habit of clicking the bp in similar time frame too, but that's a different story)
From what I saw the 90 sec parses for Second was from 170-220DPS, pretty consistent each time, so unless you're fighting a spell immune mob Second should outdo First without much problem.
Quote from: Kanan on May 26, 2009, 05:23:02 PM(I also need to get in habit of clicking the bp in similar time frame too, but that's a different story)
I would avoid having the bp and 2nd spire running at the same time, due to chances for procs to be lost.
that was definally my thought too Khauruk.. hence the simliar. Was thinking once the 2nd spire faded to hit the bp.
I thought the general consensus was that thrid spire was broken and now is just useless. Second spire really didnt match up DPS wise wth first. So First spire was the only one worth using...
I use first spire for everything, I thought maybe in DPS groups i should start using third on raids, but never did i think Second would be the best of the three...
In a raid situation though, and if in a DPS group, wouldnt first spire be better still? 60 DPS per person x 5 = 300, and second = 220 personal? So if grouped with 4 melle go 2nd, if 5 go 1st.
And will first add more to other classes than us?
Unless I'm reading the spell info wrong on first spire its self only.
Quote from: jitathab on May 29, 2009, 12:47:52 PM
In a raid situation though, and if in a DPS group, wouldnt first spire be better still? 60 DPS per person x 5 = 300, and second = 220 personal? So if grouped with 4 melle go 2nd, if 5 go 1st.
And will first add more to other classes than us?
First Spire is self only, Second Spire is pet only, Third Spire is Group Only
Yup forgot that.
I'm just simply confused. Which of the three is actually the best? I'm not much of one for looking into parses (gives me headaches) but I see conflicting opinions? Or am I?
A short fifteen minute parse shows that the second spire pulls ahead, but that's fifteen entire minutes of the spire showing up on the parse. You normally only have one tenth of that at a time.
After that, you have to factor in resists. If you're only getting 8ppm (procs per minute [8 is an arbitrary number]), one or two resists drastically decreases the desired DPS increase you would get from the spire.
None of our spires are anything to raise an eyebrow at. They're all pretty mediocre. If you were to use one, I would personally use first over second.
On a side note if you are saying the 30% dmg mod is too small to be parsable, what about the 7% from mammoth str? Or are they different?
Well read a different post and seems increasing minimum dmg is different from all skills mod...
Quote from: Inphared on June 01, 2009, 02:44:17 AM
A short fifteen minute parse shows that the second spire pulls ahead, but that's fifteen entire minutes of the spire showing up on the parse. You normally only have one tenth of that at a time.
After that, you have to factor in resists. If you're only getting 8ppm (procs per minute [8 is an arbitrary number]), one or two resists drastically decreases the desired DPS increase you would get from the spire.
None of our spires are anything to raise an eyebrow at. They're all pretty mediocre. If you were to use one, I would personally use first over second.
The Second Spire parse was done in 10, 1.5 min parses.
Procs per test
Test 1 - 10
Test 2 - 5
Test 3 - 6
Test 4 - 8
Test 5 - 7
Test 6 - 5
Test 7 - 12
Test 8 - 9
Test 9 - 10
Test 10 - 8
Even at the lowest amount that was proced (5), it's over 11k (11225) dmg or about 124DPS for the time it is up, or around 35-60 DPS more then First Spire. I did a few more runs that I did not add into the webpage but in none did i see lower then 5 procs in the time it was up. Also at -25 Chromatic (takes 25 off the mobs lowest resist then does check) it is not an easy to resist spell, I still think Second Spire is in most situations our best Spire.
Quote from: Camikazi on June 02, 2009, 04:17:26 PMThe Second Spire parse was done in 10, 1.5 min parses.
This is my point exactly. Your parse is entirely valid; don't get me wrong. But the actual reality of the game is that you can only have the spire up for 1.5 minutes before you have to wait another 13.5 to click it again.
It leaves the DPS of the spire itself up to the RNG (as does any other ability, really), so there will be situations where you get an amazing 15 procs per duration, or a really terrible 2 procs duration.
The advantage that I see, when comparing First to Second, is that I know First will most likely have an impact on every single melee hit I make (maybe not, I readily admit I don't know how the game mechanics make First work, nor do I care). With using second, the DPS that you're expecting from it relies ENTIRELY on the RNG, which obviously can be very kind or very cruel.
**EDIT**
I suppose I should seek some more clarification. As stated, your Second parses are done in ten, 1.5 minute intervals. Does the same hold true for the other two parses?
As also stated, the First parse was done with bare hands. It's agreed upon that the effects of the spire itself will increase as other things are added (bard overhaste, for example).
Quote from: Inphared on June 02, 2009, 08:52:09 PM
Quote from: Camikazi on June 02, 2009, 04:17:26 PMThe Second Spire parse was done in 10, 1.5 min parses.
This is my point exactly. Your parse is entirely valid; don't get me wrong. But the actual reality of the game is that you can only have the spire up for 1.5 minutes before you have to wait another 13.5 to click it again.
It leaves the DPS of the spire itself up to the RNG (as does any other ability, really), so there will be situations where you get an amazing 15 procs per duration, or a really terrible 2 procs duration.
The advantage that I see, when comparing First to Second, is that I know First will most likely have an impact on every single melee hit I make (maybe not, I readily admit I don't know how the game mechanics make First work, nor do I care). With using second, the DPS that you're expecting from it relies ENTIRELY on the RNG, which obviously can be very kind or very cruel.
**EDIT**
I suppose I should seek some more clarification. As stated, your Second parses are done in ten, 1.5 minute intervals. Does the same hold true for the other two parses?
As also stated, the First parse was done with bare hands. It's agreed upon that the effects of the spire itself will increase as other things are added (bard overhaste, for example).
The First Spire tests were done the same way, since it ticks down in Arena, and I posted now many times Second fired off during each test, using that you can get an idea of what the average would be for that spire, since it is up 90 sec in each test. Third Spire test was done in 1 15 min fight since it does not tick down (no clue why just Third doesn't tick). If you're gonna say procs rely on the RNG then you gotta say the same for First, since swings also rely on RNG on will it land or not, the only difference is there are more swing checks at any given time, so most don't seem to think RNG affects it.
A bad series of misses, blocks, parries, ripostes or Dodges will ruin First Spire DPS just as much, also First DPS is much more reliant on many outside buffs to max the DPS (tribute, overhaste, max haste, max fero, max swing aas, warcry) while Second is not, Second just need the buff to be up and maybe some DEX buff to max its potential.
Just a few numbers btw, even using your terrible 2 procs in a run that is 49 DPS, about half of the total that First can do with the potential to do 3 times as much as First With the proc rate that pets have the chances of getting 0-2 procs are low, in all the total tries i did (about 30 total) i never saw less then 5 which will easily blow First away. I still think that for the small risk of getting less then 3 procs, Second is worth using unless you're fighting a completely spell immune mob.
OK now that I see that the second spire is worth buying (I was holding off buying it since I thought it was broken) I can start saving up the aa points to max it out.
I think it's something I'm just chalking up to "agree to disagree." There are arguments for either side (with Third being the clear loser) that make this continually debatable. I think the sum total is "go with your gut."
Chances of getting that few procs in the 90 seconds, especially if you're not clicking BPs (which could block procs) is very minimal (I don't know enough statistics though to say how small). I'd call 2nd clear winner, but 1st still has it's uses.
1st definally wins in battle rezzing cases =/ Been having to deal with that a lot as of late.. hehe.. tower learning experiences ;p
Quote from: Kanan on June 03, 2009, 01:29:05 PM
1st definally wins in battle rezzing cases =/ Been having to deal with that a lot as of late.. hehe.. tower learning experiences ;p
With the rez slow it not a good idea to use a swing rate based ability :P
I think his point is that 2nd is obviously useless if you need to make dps without a pet.
/chuckle.. yep.. when I get battle rezzed, esp on most events, I'm scrambling to get a mob back on target, since I usually Main Assist, so even getting my clickies going is getting hard to do.. much less sitting to load up pet spells. So once rez effects are off, that's when I'd hit 1st if needed.
I'm using 2nd in my discing hotkey now instead of first. I just replaced my 3rd spire hotkey over on pad 3 or 4 with 1st now.
Aye, getting pet back can suck. I usually just delay long enough to summon/pocket pet at my bind point, and then take a rez...pallies are on the ball sometimes tho :).
pets are zoning across on a rez when in pocket again? I knew they would if I was in zone when I got the rez.
They'd not done that at one point (yeah.. I tested multiple times), but I'd thought they still didn't.
I'll have to stop floating and start going to bind if they actually working again.
It does bug sometimes, but usually works.
I recall usually being able to buff up a pet, pocket it, get a rez, then unsuspend pet. There was the long standing bug a few years ago of suddenly having two pets after accepting rez, one unsuspended as well as having a bonus pet in your pocket too that was fully buffed.
If that still works, you could click 2nd spire prior to rez and have it on both pets.
well.. I'm gonna start heading to bind after every death quickly now if I can have a mostly buffed pet by the time I get battle rezzed (focus is a pita to get the mana for even with fpos running if want to get rest of the buffs too)
I miss when you could time a cast of SE (SA at the time I think) so that it landed like as you were zoning, so that you could land in the other zone with that on you already.
depending on the fight and what not often when I die I make pet buffs and then click spire and suspend.
when I get back in unleash pet and he procing away as I still have Rez effects.
So for me 2>1 for battle res. because with res effect the Rk1 is down graded where the proc is still full power.
also by putting it on pet before res the cool down is already ticking away when with rank1 your waiting on res effects to fade and until you get buffs to get get the full effect then cool down starts where with rank 2 your almost up to using it again .
I do have 1 on my hotbar but only find my self using it when my pet got AE or ramped to death due to mob turning at the wrong time.
huh.. hadn't thought of that.. another thing I'll add to the lobby time.